A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[Bragi]

My friend used to main Pit, and I found the matchup to be fairly difficult. It's definitely manageable, but it's a bit of a headache. As Flayl said, Pit's weird projectile properties (including their placement and the timing) make approaching difficult, and when you get there Pit is fast enough to catch you with jabs/Ftilt/whatever. But I'll have to refrain from giving a percentage or anything, because back when I played against Pit often I only used Bowser as a secondary, and wasn't familiar with Up B OoS, grab release shenanigans, etc. With those tools properly used it might be a very even fight.

 

[B!squick]

Well, when the Pit boards discussed this a couple months or so ago they came up with 60/40, 55/45 numbers which I agree with. Can't say I've played a really amazing Pit. :/ But I also can't say I agree that Bowser get's beat in the air though. Pit has 2 good multi hit attacks which are great against air dodges. But like his ground moves FAir and BAir have a limited range and DAir has a fair amount of vertical knockback that doesn't allow for any really good follow ups.

I find his SideB extremely annoying if my back is to a ledge for whatever reason. x_x

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Well, when the Pit boards discussed this a couple months or so ago they came up with 60/40, 55/45 numbers which I agree with. Can't say I've played a really amazing Pit. :/ But I also can't say I agree that Bowser get's beat in the air though. Pit has 2 good multi hit attacks which are great against air dodges. But like his ground moves FAir and BAir have a limited range and DAir has a fair amount of vertical knockback that doesn't allow for any really good follow ups.

I find his SideB extremely annoying if my back is to a ledge for whatever reason. x_x

his mirror shield should be the much more annoying part when recovering, and Bowser vs Pit is probably 60-40ish Pit favor, its not that bad but its hard.

 

[MrEh]

Get in his face and for the love of God, don't get gimped.

Not much to say here. Arrows are annoying and you're gimptastic.

 

[B!squick]

his mirror shield should be the much more annoying part when recovering, and Bowser vs Pit is probably 60-40ish Pit favor, its not that bad but its hard.

When recovering, yeah, it can be pretty brutal. I've only been on the receiving end of one of those a couple of times, but luckily I've been close enough to the ledge to grab it each time.

And since I lack friends I play exclusively online anyway. And if I have trouble Klaw Hopping I'm sure timing a Mirror Shield gimp is even harder, lol.

Pit does have the greatest projectile in the game and we all know how much we love those. :D So a clear slight disadvantage. I'm liking these mid-highish tier discussions more than the higher ones. They're nice and simple.

*Some evil, malignant blight descends from the back of the mind. Showering all in it's wake with it's bile, and a touch chilling enouch to steal ones breath away, just before devouring your very soul. Spawned from the deepest, darkest cesspool of theorycraft... it's the Olimar/Bowser discussion!*

Gah! Make it go away! T_T

 

[MrEh]

I'm prepared to just call it 40-60 and be done with it. I hate Pit, and I hate discussing him. XD

 

[B!squick]

Well, in regards to the next one, a good thing about being behind is that it's pretty easy to just go on the other match up threads and go, "Ah, here we go." *copy paste* MrEh as always covered everything.

 

[MrEh]

I mind as well go call some of the Peach people over to discuss this, They have it listed as a 40-60 matchup for Bowser. Not all that bad, all things considered.

 

[Flayl]

I can't see how Peach beats Bowser. Off the top of my head I don't think she can hit Bowser's shield with a floating aerial and not get hit by fortress.

 

[Liquid Gen]

If it is properly spaced she can not be hit by fortress.

KEyword is properly spaced, meaning anyone half competent can pull it off.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I can't see how Peach beats Bowser. Off the top of my head I don't think she can hit Bowser's shield with a floating aerial and not get hit by fortress.

I'm fairly certain she can if she's spaced properly. I'll check it out sometime just to make sure

It's late so I can't be bothered to say much atm. I'd put the match up at around 55:45/60:40 Peachs favour but it's been a while since I fought a good Bowser and I think someone was having trouble with Bowser a while back so I don't know. Dair combos eat poor Bowser, Turnips are useful blah de blah de blah

Oh screw it I'll just post this. Hope you don't mind. Whisk it off to another castle if you please

Bowser is tougher than he looks. By now, you should have learnt in Brawl that heavies like Bowser are no longer pushovers

Bowser has surprisingly good range and power on his attacks. His tilts have long range and an up angled F Tilt (if you're low enough) and Up Tilt can knock you out of the sky. This makes approaching Bowser on the ground a bi of a pain. His F Smash is horribly strong when all the hits connect and it can even go straight through Toad and hit Peach. Peach's F Tilt clanks with Bowser's F Smash

Bowser also has a surprisingly good aerial game. His Side B can be used in the air and will laglessly cancel into anything if it doesn't connect when he reaches the ground (when used properly). His Fair has long range, his Bair and Uair are both strong and his Dair has multiple hits. Peach's Bair and Bowser's Bair trade hits btw.

There are two things you really really have to watch out for in this match. First off his Bowsers Side B, the Koopa Klaw. We did it a while ago on my thread if anyones interested. It's basically a special kind of grab and a very good anti air move. Once he grabs you, he'll spin in the air and then come crashing down. If you're losing, you can control where he goes in the air. When he lands it is CRUCIAL you DI correctly. Bowsers Side B has enough power to kill Peach who uses bad DI

Then there's Bowsers grab release. He can continually ground grab release Peach. The only way for her to truly escape is to jump release. Unfortunetly, Bowser can follow up with an F Tilt (or another grab) if she ground releases and a Fair if Peach jump releases

I find staying in the air for short bursts at a time works best. Turnip barrages are a key to winning. Fair is very good at defending yourself against Bowser's Fair and aerial Side B. Unfortunetly, this stales her best kill move. Don't be surprised if Bowser stays alive for such a long period of time

Bowser is big and heavy. If you get a Dair in, go for another one and another if you can manage. Bowser has poor recovery as well so gimping him is a good way to KO him...easier said than done though. Bowser's Up + B, which is not only a horribly surprisingly OoS option (and KO move), will cancel Turnips out the majority of the time. Good ledge play is needed here. Toad his recovery if all else fails

I personally think that the match up is somewhere around the 55-45/60-40 area in Peach's favour. Bowser is not to be underestimated

Okay, quick matchup summary coming!



Okay, first of all, you need to avoid Bowser's grab. This is a problem for some characters, but not for you. That's because you are Peach, and you should not be grabbed. If you're not floating in this matchup, then you're doing it wrong.

What sort of horrors can Bowser unleash out of his grab? Grab releases. If Bowser grabs Peach and you get a ground release, he can grab you again for more pummel damage and he can even use a Klaw, which will do a sizeable 18%. You fare a little better if you jump out of Bowser's grab with a jump release, but it's still not a very good thing. If you jump out, Bowser can Fair you, which can KO at the ledge. However, you should not be overly scared of this. Remember that you are Peach, and if you're using Peach, you are floating. If you're not floating, you're doing it wrong.


Bowser also has a very large shield, which he an use to absorb attacks and counterattack with his OoS options. Large shields are not a problem for you, because you are Peach. If you're not floating and Dairing/Fairing your opponent, you're doing it wrong.

Bowser's OoS options are pretty beastly though. His Fortress has invincibility frames and comes out instantly. If you're not floating at head height, which you should be, you'll probably be hit by it. Just make sure you're floating high enough for this to be ineffective. Then again, I think the hitbox might have some vertical disjoint, so I'll test it to see if the Fortress can stop Dairs and such. (probably not, but I mind as well)


Oh, and there's a move that deserves it's own paragraph. The Utilt. Bowser's Utilt is absolutely beastly, and it's one of the most powerful Utilts in the game. It comes out fast, has lots of priority (it will beat all your aerials), and a very bogus hitbox. Did I mention it'll probably kill at 110%? The reason I mention this move is that it's simply too good. It's very hard to predict, and it's one of Bowser's most usable killing moves. Watch out for this, especially if there are platforms around.


Other then that, watch out for the occasional aerial and Bowser's edgeguard shenanigans. Make sure you save your killing moves, otherwise he'll be a nightmare to kill.

So yeah, I would agree on something like 60-40. I might go as far to argue that it's 55-45, but that seems a bit low.

[/quote]

 

[itsthebigfoot]

dair combos = mash upb and you're out

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah bowsers upB is too good

 

[Canvasofgrey]

It's rather easy for Peach to get over 40% on Bowser due to easy combos like Dair combos and chain grabs to Utilt. Above 40%, then it just becomes a game whether who gets in the best shots. Peach is light, so I wouldn't worry too much about throwing your strongest moves out there on the start because even Bowser's moderate hitting moves can send her flying.

For Bowser, I imagine your normal moves are a tad too slow to hit a competent player, so rely on your disjointed hitboxes, just as Peach does on bigger opponents.

Oh, Try to get your grabs in. They are your best friend against Peach.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Oh, Try to get your grabs in. They are your best friend against everyone.

had to fix that one canvas lol

 

[itsthebigfoot]

It's rather easy for Peach to get over 40% on Bowser due to easy combos like Dair combos and chain grabs to Utilt. Above 40%, then it just becomes a game whether who gets in the best shots. Peach is light, so I wouldn't worry too much about throwing your strongest moves out there on the start because even Bowser's moderate hitting moves can send her flying.

For Bowser, I imagine your normal moves are a tad too slow to hit a competent player, so rely on your disjointed hitboxes, just as Peach does on bigger opponents.

Oh, Try to get your grabs in. They are your best friend against Peach.

up + b

also, bowsers fair, grounded sideb, upb, jab and tilts are all pretty easy to land

 

[Canvasofgrey]

up + b

also, bowsers fair, grounded sideb, upb, jab and tilts are all pretty easy to land

Properly spaced, Peach can Dair Bowser And not get hit with UpB. This involves Being at a high float so that the disjointed Dair will it Bowser, and chain to the next. Even so, Dair -> Nair beats Fortress anyway if you try to use that as a combo breaker.

And thanks Jigz XD

 

[B!squick]

Properly spaced, Peach can Dair Bowser And not get hit with UpB. This involves Being at a high float so that the disjointed Dair will it Bowser, and chain to the next. Even so, Dair -> Nair beats Fortress anyway if you try to use that as a combo breaker.

And thanks Jigz XD

Pretty epic combo if it beats invincibility frames.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

cna't bowser just go up while doing upB to still get peachs Dair even from so high? and i think i heard he can Utilt it if shes so high up.

 

[B!squick]

I have no way to test any of this. So anyone who can, or has already, please do/share.

Also, I randomly stumbled across the Hawaii is Brawlin' tourny vids randomly. Good stuff MrEh.

EDIT: And I nominate this real life reinactment of Ganon's FAir as our image for Ganon when we get around to him. The thread I got it from was locked and Ganon's pretty far down the list, so make sure you save it.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/darkkyanite/2001037167839483454_rs.jpg

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Properly spaced, Peach can Dair Bowser And not get hit with UpB. This involves Being at a high float so that the disjointed Dair will it Bowser, and chain to the next. Even so, Dair -> Nair beats Fortress anyway if you try to use that as a combo breaker.

And thanks Jigz XD

if dair lands, then properly DI'd, no, she can't. upb has 5 invincibility frames on startup, it will beat dair - anything, since dair gives him startup time before the next hit, and if you're actually comboing him he'll be close enough to upb.

it might beat it on the ground, but if you actually read in context you'd know that you can't space it mid combo.

 

[asob4]

played a pretty good bowser yesterday, he used the tag elm street but his name was DJ i dunno i gotta ask oki

but he beat me.... on the first stock
then i combo'd him to 80 each stock and camped for the rest, he couldn't touch me

it took me 1 stock to adjust to bowser, it was too easy 65-35 olimar

 

[MrEh]

played a pretty good bowser yesterday, he used the tag elm street but his name was DJ i dunno i gotta ask oki

We'll get to that at a later time. Peach now please.

 

[B!squick]

I'm happy with 60-40 to lose. Might as well go for the gold in most slight disadvantage match ups, lol.

 

[Sky`]

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

When I played Hypethug, I essentially for two stocks got my **** whooped.
I'll see if I can find the video, I was getting raaaaped.​

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
​

​

 

[Sky`]

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

But in any case, you Bowsers just have to keep Peach out of the Air IMO. Do that with tilts and Fire. :3​

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
​

​

 

[B!squick]

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

When I played Hypethug, I essentially for two stocks got my **** whooped.
I'll see if I can find the video, I was getting raaaaped.​

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
​

​

Huh? O.o Who's hypethug?

 

[B!squick]

.... Well, anyway, another 60/40 seem good? Or what? :/

 

[MrEh]

Try not to double post man. You can get warnings for that. (then again, no mods come around here anyway)

And yes, I suppose 60-40 sounds good. I'll update the thread later today.

 

[B!squick]

It's been more than 24 hours since that first post. Most of the other character boards rarely see a drought of ten minutes been any posts and this is our all important match up thread. Need I say more?

Anyway, Wolf is someone I've been looking forward to as I would think it goes about even. Wolf has a nasty BAir that could be a problem and like other space animals he comes with a laizer. But also like them, he loses out to Firebreath. It's not nessecary though. A neat Wolf ledge tech is dropping and SideBing through stage. Now, either the Wolf I was playing against was bad or something, I don't play Bowser nearly as well as I discuss him you see, but I had foreseen the tech due to my previous dabblings with Wolf, so right when he dropped I mashed the C-Stick and it was a perfect Gimpyfish combo before anyone could say "Bob's your uncle."

Of course, Wolf didn't die from that, dispite the high percent as Wolf weighs in at the light-heavy/heavy-mid category and is thus a pain to KO, even for Bowser. It goes both ways though and his DThrow is perfect for setting up spikes and is in general great for getting people off stage. All in all, a hard fight for both sides and it seems Bowser has no guarentees after a jump release which makes it all the harder for Bowser. I still consider it even though.

 

[MrEh]

Get him offstage and start blowing fire. ^^

In all seriousness though, I'll get thew Wolf boards in here, to see what they have to say.

 

[tekkie]

right when he dropped I mashed the C-Stick and it was a perfect Gimpyfish combo before anyone could say "Bob's your uncle."

You can easily attack Wolf through an illusion cancel. On the other hand, Bowser's a **** big target, so if he doesn't get precedence, he'll probably get the worst of the cancel hit.

I dunno. Bowser has good range, Wolf has good speed. I can see it being even.

 

[B!squick]

You can easily attack Wolf through an illusion cancel. On the other hand, Bowser's a **** big target, so if he doesn't get precedence, he'll probably get the worst of the cancel hit.

I dunno. Bowser has good range, Wolf has good speed. I can see it being even.

Bowser's FSmash comes with it's own draw back animation which might explain why I didn't get hit and ended up punishing the ending lag as Bowser's FSmash doesn't have fancy Super Armor like, say, Wario. I know if I didn't know an illusion cancel was coming I probably would have missed. I think I hit him just as he was hitting ground, I can't say for sure as it's been awhile since that match actually happened. I don't even remember who won. :/

 

[JigglyZelda003]

can bowser just upB as Wolf tries to fly through the stage?

 

[B!squick]

can bowser just upB as Wolf tries to fly through the stage?

Probably. I didn't really have a chance to explore that because he stopped Illusion cancelling after the second time I got him off stage.

Bowser FSmash: 2
Illusion Cancell: 0

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Huh? O.o Who's hypethug?

hypethug is the best bowser in norcal

 

[B!squick]

hypethug is the best bowser in norcal

Oh, *shrug* okay.

*searches YouTube*

... I'm guessing there's just no recent footage of his Bowser? O.o?

 

[choice_brawler]

Bowser vs Wolf is definitely a tough match for both sides.

Both of them are relatively heavy, with bowser being heavier but wolf having better kill options (dsmash ftw ^^). Bowser really does rule while he's on the ground, but wolf's prefer the air (even more so than falco) and just **** while they're there.

Wolf's lazor will make it so that if he doesnt feel safe to approach, you're gonna approach. I use it from time to time but for the most part its just for free %, i don't ever feel really threatened by approaching bowser. His range is really good but he just lacks the speed in the air which wolf has. Really my only worry when im approaching a bowser is that he gets off a grab on me somehow, possibly a rpg (reverse pivot grab) or somethin. Grabs are going to play a huge part in this match up because wolf's back and up throws put bowser in the air where he can be juggled, not to mention his dthrow doing good dmg and setting up good tech chasing opportunities. Dthrow to spike probably will not happen all too often unless the wolf is really greedy, i mean your up b has invincibility frames, and this guys gonna spike you out of it? im so sure!
Bowser's grabs on the other hand mean grab release, and there are a few nasty one's on wolf =/. I heard grab release to bowser sit works but i've luckily never experienced it. I've gotten all sorts of other grab releases done on me though and that sucks. Grabbing a wolf will let you get early kills, or at least earlier kills than normal, which is nice. So i guess like in short terms:
-lazors = wolf can force bowser to approach
-grabs4wolf = rack up %
-grabs4bowser = earlier kills

JayDeth said that wolf loses out to firebreath, thats kinda true. Firebreath means that wolf needs to use his up b to recover, wolf up b goes through firebreath. So it does gimp wolf somewhat, and you still cant hit wolf while he's in his up b (im not positive what the criteria is for that, i just know that i've been hit a few times). If nothing else, you can get in some free % if they sideB or maybe get a lot of % if they just panic and dont know what to do. But i mean, top notch wolf wont have too much trouble with it i feel. For wolf, recovering with sideB almost becomes habitual. As to the fail'd scarring that that wolf you were playing against did JayDeth (or at least i think he was trying to scar) that should not happen. I have been gimpyfish combo'd after scarring, but i learned my lesson. You can set yourself up so that the wolf is baited into scarring and then just shield and punish, but a smart wolf wont fall for this.

Since wolf is going to be trying to fight you in the air, it wouldn't be a bad idea to fight back with well spaced fairs. I really am curious what i would do if i was on the other side of the match up, playing bowser and being on the receiving end of a ton of lagless fairs and bairs. I'd imagine if you up b oos once a bair connects you could probably hit wolf, and i really doubt thats what you'll be using to kill so no reason to save it. Bowser's ftilt is really big too, and that will be another one of your punishing moves in this match up as long with a great way to space yourself. Be sure not to just keep backing up, i know as a wolf player i love it when my opponent has their back to the edge. Their DI gets so predictable, juggling is tons easier and my dsmash kills earlier now. A roll will be punished with a smash or a grab so yea just dont get yourself in that situation. On the other hand, getting wolf into a corner is great for you. He can't really retreat all that far when he is fairing and bairing anymore, and he'll probably try to jump over you honestly, so take advantage of that. Lay down the pressure with jabs, tilts, sideB and even firebreath. That wolf will either get messed up or try to jump over you and get punished.

Match up overall is 50-50. When a wolf is juggling you, try to go for the bowser sit to the ledge or however you bowser's get down. I really shouldn't be giving the bowser technique advices, but i'd imagine that works well, correct me if im wrong so no bowsers do so.

And in reference to best bowser in norcal. I'd put my money on Ein over hypethug personally. I've mm'd hypethug and for the most part it was a lot of up b oos and grab releases. After a while he got predictable. I feel Ein is more original with his tactics and also just has been more tourney active recently. Last time i saw hypethug at a tourney was like in december or something.

 

[B!squick]

Awesome. If you were selling something I'd totally buy it. And Wolf prefering to approach makes it all the more even. Not it matters a whole lot. I'd imagine only Wolf getting off two, maybe three blaster shots safely before Bowser's breathing down your neck anyway. And Bowser being in the air isn't all bad because the hit box on Klaw which I wouldn't be surprised if it beat out Wolf's UAir, but that doesn't mean you should approach him like that.

Oh, and don't forget about Wolf's FSmash and it's twisted range.

On the subject of Ein, he seems to be... meh. I start to like what I'm seeing, then he get's edge hogged by Ivysaur. I finally see a grab release chain on Shiek that's combo vid material, then he dies while trying to finish it off with a DownB when the stage (D. Plaza) changes. x_x And their's little excuse for no Klaw Hopping.

Honestly, the vids I saw of hypethug from 8 months ago seemed a bit better. :/

EDIT: Also, MrEh, I think you goofed. Notice something wrong with your updates?

Updates:
- Dec 21: Made new thread. Falco has been added as a 45-55 matchup.
- Dec 23: R.O.B has been added as a 40-60 matchup.
- Dec 31: Marth has been added as a 40-60 matchup.
- Jan 5: Wario has been added as a 45-55 matchup. A new tier list was also released, so everything got shuffled around.
- Jan 12: Diddy has been added as a 35-65 matchup.
- Jan 25: Lucario has been added as a 45-55 matchup.
- Feb 5: Pikachu has been added as a 40-60 matchup.
- Feb 22: Kirby has been added as a 40-60 matchup.
- Feb 26: Donkey Kong has been added as a 40-60 matchup.
- Mar 2: Ice Climbers have been added as a 25-75 matchup.
- Mar 11: Zero Suit Samus has been added as a 40-60 matchup.
- Mar 12: Toon Link has been added as a 40-60 matchup.
- Mar 12: Pit was discussed for 5 minutes and added as a 40-60 matchup.
- March 18: Peach has been added as a 40-60 matchup.

Or anything else out of the ordinary?

 

[choice_brawler]

Are you saying that Klaw out ranges wolf's uair when wolf is below boozer? (that sounds so ridiculous) o.o If it does, thats just crazy, lol. All the same, i feel like bowser's weight and size work against him while he's in the air.

The Fsmash does have great range for wolf. But its punishable if the wolf just keeps spamming it. Great punishing move though.

Maybe i caught hypethug on a bad day or somethin, but yea i wasn't all too impressed. Well i mean i was impressed at him bowsering other people and thats why i wanted to play him, but yea.