A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[MrEh]

I certainly don't think it's Bowser's advantage. I think it's even.


Although I would prefer we if we got some Sheik input.

 

[B!squick]

All I know about Shiek is the tilt locks and the needles are hard to see.

 

[MrEh]

If you're fighting a dumb offensive Sheik, then Bowser destroys her.


If you're fighting a smart/campy Sheik, then things start getting difficult.

 

[B!squick]

Heh, yeah, Bowser does tend to eat up the dumb offensive types most of the time. Unfortunately, I'd say about 3/4's of the cast has either has a projectile that's better than Bowser's, or at least one attack of some sort that allows them to poke at Bowser and not get punished for it if they're smart with their spacing.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I play shiek with just about equal competency as Zelda. Bowser's hard to kill, but we can wrack up damage like a mother. it's probably about dead even. The ability to switch to Zelda for a KO removes our only real problem which is great if we actually use that advantage, but a straight sheik isn't any better than even.

 

[B!squick]

With Zelda, there's not much of a reason to bother with Shiek even if you play Shiek more and only know Zelda a little, right?

 

[rathy Aro]

I don't know too much about bowser, but I'll try and help out the discussion from a sheik's perspective.

advantages:
Needles
some of the best maneuverability in the game
ftilt lock to fairly high percents
guaranteed ftilt to upsmash if ftilt is decayed enough and it should be
bair should be a safe aerial to use, even on bowser's shield, but I'm not sure
DACUS for surprise kills
i doubt sheik can gimp bowser with an aerial, but her needles can disrupt his recovery (someone should find out what wins between sheik's nair and bowser fortress(
2 frame jab to grab is always ****
I think chain should be applicable in this matchup for chain locks and maybe chainguards?

One thing I want to point out is that sheik doesn't have as hard a time killing as many people think especially if she can just switch to zelda. And anytime bowser is forced to recover it should be safe for sheik to transform by simply running to the other side of the stage, full hopping, and then transform.

edit: I would think sheik/zelda has a slight advantage at least. 55-45? If that's the case you should just go straight zelda. question: what does bowser have to answer for chain?

 

[MrEh]

(someone should find out what wins between sheik's nair and bowser fortress(

Fortress wins.

^^

 

[B!squick]

Answer for Chain? Fortress probably. It pretty much Bowser's answer to anything, just throw some more Fortress at it until it goes away. Or just Klaw Hop behind you and punish. >.>

@ MrEh
I don't know. Kirby's DAir is amazing against Fortress. :/ But you're more than likely correct.

 

[MrEh]

Chain camping is beaten by Fire.

 

[B!squick]

^That too.

Man, this is fun MrEh. Tag teaming like this, lol.

 

[MrEh]

It's not really tag teaming as it is me just shooting down ideas.

XD

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sheik wracks up damage better than zelda and she plays a better runaway game. Switching to zelda for KOs probably works at least as well as zelda alone... but not much better so it's probably also around 60:40

 

[Red Arremer]

^Their prejudices are facts, though. Maybe not all the facts are there, but yeah... I think you're taking the whole "underestimating Bowser" a bit too far. You could say that about any mid-low tier with ease. Boy, is that list big...

So waiwaiwait... let me get this straight.

You think Bowser is slow, has a bad recovery and is easy to beat with everyone?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

^Actually, no. I'm saying they have the right idea, though. Bowser's frame data doesn't exactly show otherwise (unless it's the fortress), and gimps are a given. We all know Bowser is gimp-tastic. Doesn't mean we can't get around it. Doesn't mean it won't happen more often then we'd like. Bowser also has an uphill battle nearly all the time, as this matchup thread has pretty much asserted. The only thing that isn't mentioned often enough, I think, is Bowser's optimum range for boxing (as the thread in the general tactics section put it). It's really nice. I mean, dang it... Vex, Sliq, and NinjaLink vids are pretty much self-help booklets on Bowser Boxing.

So yeah. This is why I can't consider them without facts. They're not really getting the wrong data. They're just thinking of the theory craft at the maximum level. CPU-like, actually. It's pretty silly, and that's why we make fun of them, but it's not like it can be helped in these kind of threads.

Anyway, if we're going to add sheik to the whole deal, might as well give my input. I'm going with 60-40, sheik's favor. I want to say 55-45 to represent slight advantage, but 60-40 is as good as anything else in that regard.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Anyway, if we're going to add sheik to the whole deal, might as well give my input. I'm going with 60-40, sheik's favor. I want to say 55-45 to represent slight advantage, but 60-40 is as good as anything else in that regard.

if you're saying that, you must realize that sheik's biggest problem is finishing bowser off, a feat that Zelda accomplishes easily. If you make that concession, then the Zelda/Sheik together matchup would be, in all likelihood, a hard counter matchup assuming that the user is an equally masterful Zelda and Sheik. Are you really willing to make such a concession?

I like sheik against bowser and I normally do quite well. Not as well as zelda alone, however, so I'm less inclined to believe it could be a 60:40 matchup, though I have no doubt that Zelda is a 60:40 against bowser.

 

[Red Arremer]

Stuff.

Unfortunately, if you look at many character matchup threads, it will always go like this:
"Bowser is heavy and has strong attacks. But he is a huge target, has a bad recovery, is extremely slow and no projectile. MU is 70:30 in our favor".

I'm not kidding. It's always like that. Many people underestimate Bowser. In our Sheik example: By saying that the chainlock easily works on Bowser without thinking of Bowser's opportunities with Fire, the Sheik player has an assumption that simply is not correct. He goes ahead thinking of only Bowser's size and how much of an easy target he is. Which isn't true. I can see that when the characters with sweetspots say that, like Zelda's Lightning kicks, but honestly... Bowser is not an amazing character, but he definitely isn't hardcountered by all of the cast, which is always is said to be.

As for Sheik MU... I still think it's slightly in Bowser's advantage. Maybe not 60:40, but 55:45, if we have to settle with that.
Zelda is, without a doubt, 60:40 in Zelda's favour.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

if you're saying that, you must realize that sheik's biggest problem is finishing bowser off, a feat that Zelda accomplishes easily. If you make that concession, then the Zelda/Sheik together matchup would be, in all likelihood, a hard counter matchup assuming that the user is an equally masterful Zelda and Sheik. Are you really willing to make such a concession?

I like sheik against bowser and I normally do quite well. Not as well as zelda alone, however, so I'm less inclined to believe it could be a 60:40 matchup, though I have no doubt that Zelda is a 60:40 against bowser.

From my experience with the matchup, Sheik's mobility and effectiveness off stage (fair a high recovering Bowser) provides a large part of the difficulty. Again, the difference between 60:40 and 55:45 is... not that big. And switching between Zelda and Sheik in this situation, as you are assuming the opponent would do, wouldn't change that 60:40 very much. Why are you thinking that I'm calling it a hardcounter? If it isn't too much trouble, could you give a hypothetical battle that hi-lights how chainging from Sheik to Zelda and vice versa would effect the matchup in such a dramatic way if both individual matchups are still 60-40 or 55-45 (maybe even 50-50)? Otherwise I just can't see it.

Unfortunately, if you look at many character matchup threads, it will always go like this:
"Bowser is heavy and has strong attacks. But he is a huge target, has a bad recovery, is extremely slow and no projectile. MU is 70:30 in our favor".

I'm not kidding. It's always like that. Many people underestimate Bowser. In our Sheik example: By saying that the chainlock easily works on Bowser without thinking of Bowser's opportunities with Fire, the Sheik player has an assumption that simply is not correct. He goes ahead thinking of only Bowser's size and how much of an easy target he is. Which isn't true. I can see that when the characters with sweetspots say that, like Zelda's Lightning kicks, but honestly... Bowser is not an amazing character, but he definitely isn't hardcountered by all of the cast, which is always is said to be.

As for Sheik MU... I still think it's slightly in Bowser's advantage. Maybe not 60:40, but 55:45, if we have to settle with that.
Zelda is, without a doubt, 60:40 in Zelda's favour.

When have I said anything about hardcounter? For the record, Bowser IS an easy target. That's why I wouldn't say anything bad about their facts. They have some, just not all of them. I still laugh at the 70-30, though. Also, MrEh has gone a long way in changing the perception of Bowser (and Boozer players in general) within the eyes of smashers, so I'm not exactly going to jump on that "everyone" bit. (Maybe I'm giving him too much credit? "lol")

I was under the impression that 60-40 opponent favor was a simple uphill battle. Certainly not unwinnable. Do you honestly want to argue the difference between a 55-45 and 60-40 that much? If so, then sure, I'll take a 55-45 Sheik favor then. I just can't see it as being Bowser's advantage, though.

PS: I love this thread.

 

[Red Arremer]

When have I said anything about hardcounter? For the record, Bowser IS an easy target. That's why I wouldn't say anything bad about their facts. They have some, just not all of them. I still laugh at the 70-30, though. Also, MrEh has gone a long way in changing the perception of Bowser (and Boozer players in general) within the eyes of the mid-tiers. So I'm not exactly going to jump on that "everyone" bit.

Not you, but everyone who doesn't know Bowser better. Yes, he is big, but he has other properties too. And he certainly is not slow, as EVERYONE assumes.

I was under the impression that 60-40 opponent favor was a simple uphill battle. Certainly not unwinnable. Do you honestly want to argue the difference between a 55-45 and 60-40 that much? If so, then sure, I'll take a 55-45 Sheik favor then. I just can't see it as being Bowser's advantage, though.

Yes, it is winnable, just not easily. And 55-45 stands more for even than it stands for advantage. Though I personally just don't see Bowser having a disadvantage here.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

^What about MrEh's mentioning of needle camping? It might warrant that 55-45 that you're not so keen on. Sure, we could ledge camp that thing, or maybe approach with klaw hopping...

 

[Red Arremer]

Needle camping can do just as much. The needles have limited range, and are easily shielded or blocked with the Fortress.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

From my experience with the matchup, Sheik's mobility and effectiveness off stage (fair a high recovering Bowser) provides a large part of the difficulty. Again, the difference between 60:40 and 55:45 is... not that big. And switching between Zelda and Sheik in this situation, as you are assuming the opponent would do, wouldn't change that 60:40 very much. Why are you thinking that I'm calling it a hardcounter? If it isn't too much trouble, could you give a hypothetical battle that hi-lights how chainging from Sheik to Zelda and vice versa would effect the matchup in such a dramatic way if both individual matchups are still 60-40 or 55-45 (maybe even 50-50)? Otherwise I just can't see it.

why is zelda good against bowser? she outranges him and has a variety of effective kill moves against him for one thing.

what about the sheik matchup. why is it about even in most people's eyes even though sheik doesn't have more range than bowser, is weaker, is lighter weight and has a hell of a time killing bowser? Well, sheik, once he/she/it finds an openning EXCELLS at applying pressure and wracking up damage. it takes a much higher damage to kill bowser than vice versa, but sheik can reach that damage at a pretty good rate because of sheik's ridiculous attack speed.

if you start the match as sheik, you primarily poke bowser with needles or feints until you find an opening and then you keep up an assault to wrack up damage until he knocks you off or gets hit somewhere that you can't reliably follow up. once you get a respectable amount of damage on him, you transform as soon as it's safe to do so (this is not hard to do considering how quickly sheik can cover ground in respect to bowser and the ability to jump transform.) then you're zelda... who is just as good against bowser as she always was except NOW all your kill moves are fresh and sheik has wracked up enough damage on bowser for you to kill him with the first attack you use.

Sheik + Zelda =/= the average of sheik's matchup with zelda's matchup. It = the best possible application of the two of them and normally is better than either alone.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

if you start the match as sheik, you primarily poke bowser with needles or feints until you find an opening and then you keep up an assault to wrack up damage until he knocks you off or gets hit somewhere that you can't reliably follow up. once you get a respectable amount of damage on him, you transform as soon as it's safe to do so (this is not hard to do considering how quickly sheik can cover ground in respect to bowser and the ability to jump transform.) then you're zelda... who is just as good against bowser as she always was except NOW all your kill moves are fresh and sheik has wracked up enough damage on bowser for you to kill him with the first attack you use.

Sheik + Zelda =/= the average of sheik's matchup with zelda's matchup. It = the best possible application of the two of them and normally is better than either alone.

Wait, but wouldn't matchup knowledge of Zelda provide some sort of stabilization for the switchup? We know that lightning kick/upsmash/forwardsmash/ftilt/din's fire is comming. As I think you've touched on before, Din's Fire becomes unreliable as a pressure move (and also allows for experienced Bowsers to power shield their way to optimum boxing range). A cautious Bowser could stay out of ftilt and fsmash range until given the opportunity to power shield din's fire and score an attack (possibly inciting a lightning kick that can be predicted... hopefully...). Even if Zelda transformed back into Sheik upon sundering Bowser in lava, Bowser could foreseeably stock Sheik one more and still be back at the drawing board.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Wait, but wouldn't matchup knowledge of Zelda provide some sort of stabilization for the switchup? We know that lightning kick/upsmash/forwardsmash/ftilt/din's fire is comming. As I think you've touched on before, Din's Fire becomes unreliable as a pressure move (and also allows for experienced Bowsers to power shield their way to optimum boxing range). A cautious Bowser could stay out of ftilt and fsmash range until given the opportunity to power shield din's fire and score an attack (possibly inciting a lightning kick that can be predicted... hopefully...). Even if Zelda transformed back into Sheik upon sundering Bowser in lava, Bowser could foreseeably stock Sheik one more and still be back at the drawing board.

Zelda has no less than 7 kill moves. Do you really think you can avoid all of them? And you're assuming that the zelda is bad and that she'll focus entirely on KOing you. No, she'll focus on maintaining her advantage and killing you as soon as she can but not getting reckless for the KO. She was good against you anyway and she had a 60:40 matchup when you had the same damage and she had to stale her kill moves. do you REALLY think the matchup is going to get BETTER for you when Zelda pops out against a heavily damaged bowser and has no staling on any of her moves? no. it's better for her.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Zelda has no less than 7 kill moves. Do you really think you can avoid all of them? And you're assuming that the zelda is bad and that she'll focus entirely on KOing you. No, she'll focus on maintaining her advantage and killing you as soon as she can but not getting reckless for the KO. She was good against you anyway and she had a 60:40 matchup when you had the same damage and she had to stale her kill moves. do you REALLY think the matchup is going to get BETTER for you when Zelda pops out against a heavily damaged bowser and has no staling on any of her moves? no. it's better for her.

Naaaah, don't get me wrong. I'm assuming The Zelda is freakishly good. By that token, since Zelda has so many kill moves (dsmash, bthrow, bair, fair, uair, din, fsmash, usmash, etc), nothing short of ledge camping will save Bowser (and even that isn't a solution). However, I'm also assuming that the Bowser is doing everything possible to poke and survive as long as possible (to cause as much damage as possible before he dies). Nowhere did I say this was good for Bowser. I don't know how you met this extreme, but even if it's a dumb Zelda, I know that the matchup is NOT going to get BETTER. I'm saying that it can't get worse than the aforementioned 60-40 BECAUSE OF SHEIK.

You're only assuming a slight advantage for Sheik, which is how you're starting off the match, correct? If that assumption is true, then it only stands that Sheik will take some mode of damage, possibly enough to NOT influence the combined matchup beyond 65-45 or 60-40 Sheik/Zelda combo favor. If Sheik takes 70% damage and Bowser takes 120%, then Sheik transforms into Zelda, even from the center of Final Destination it's looking like the odds that normally face a Bowser vs Zelda matchup. Unless you're somehow implying that Bowser will land very few hits, a real possibility, I'm going to guestimate some human error and say that Bowser has a fighting chance in that situation. That's how I'm looking at it. If you're going to go say that the combined matchup is something like 70-30, say so. I can understand a little better thanks to the hypothetical situation, so it's not like I'm going to say it gets better. "lol" I'd be a big douche if I said that.

Fun Question: Actually, after you transform into Zelda, you could stay as Zelda since that, according to the scenerio you've presented, would keep the matchup a strong smudge in your favor, correct? Unless switching back to Sheik would further tip the balance?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Naaaah, don't get me wrong. I'm assuming the Zelda is freakishly good. By that token, since Zelda has so many kill moves (dsmash, bthrow, bair, fair, uair, din, fsmash, usmash, etc), nothing short of ledge camping will save Bowser (and even that isn't a solution). However, I'm also assuming that the Bowser is doing everything possible to poke and survive as long as possible (to cause as much damage as possible before he dies). Nowhere did I say this was good for Bowser. I don't know how you met this extreme, but even if it's a dumb Zelda, I know that the matchup is NOT going to get BETTER. I'm saying that it can't get worse than the aforementioned 60-40 BECAUSE OF SHEIK.
You're only assuming a slight advantage for Sheik, which is how you're starting off the match, correct? If that assumption is true, then it only stands that Sheik will take some mode of damage, possibly enough to NOT influence the combined matchup beyond 65-45 or 60-40 Sheik/Zelda combo favor. If Sheik takes 70% damage and Bowser takes 120%, then Sheik transforms into Zelda, even from the center of Final Destination it's looking like the odds that normally face a Bowser vs Zelda matchup. Unless you're somehow implying that Bowser will land very few hits, a real possibility, I'm going to guestimate some human error and say that Bowser has a fighting chance in that situation. That's how I'm looking at it. If you're going to go say that the combined matchup is something like 70-30, say so. I can understand a little better thanks to the hypothetical situation, so it's not like I'm going to say it gets better. "lol" I'd be a big idiot if I said that.

Fun Question: Actually, after you transform back into Zelda, you could stay as Zelda since that, according to the scenerio you've presented, would keep the matchup a strong smudge in your favor, correct? Unless switching back to Sheik would further tip the balance?

you have more than enough time to switch back to sheik who will also have refreshed moves again and then start from there. What I'm saying is the only reason sheik doesn't have a great matchup against bowser is because of how hard it is for sheik to KO him. But sheik should NOT have trouble wracking up damage.

Let's say you get bowser to triple digit damage and he does about 50 to your sheik. then you transform and you are zelda. If you'd been zelda the whole time, you probably would have taken a bit more damage by this point and, even if you hadn't, you would have staled some of your attacks. that won't be the case now so you'll do slightly better than if you hadn't used sheik at all.

And that's assuming that's how it plays out. a good sheik will be **** hard to connect with with attacks other than fortress (which sheik can actually punish on block or dodge because of her speed) It's not like it WON'T happen, but the damage advantage will be greatly in her favour.

Even so, it's not enough to do more than maybe add an extra 5% to the total matchup, unless sheik is better than I'm giving her credit for at not getting touched by bowser.

 

[B!squick]

Let's say you get bowser to triple digit damage and he does about 50 to your sheik.

That's a hypothetical bordering on the next to impossible, but sure, I'll roll with it.

If you'd been zelda the whole time, you probably would have taken a bit more damage by this point and, even if you hadn't, you would have staled some of your attacks.

All Zelda needs to do is make sure she keeps one kill move fresh. Shouldn't be that hard considering her options. And the move decay never seems to do enough to Lightning Kicks anyway. ._.

a good sheik will be **** hard to connect with with attacks other than fortress (which sheik can actually punish on block or dodge because of her speed)

Sure. Even if that were the case (I'd bet money it isn't), it's not like Bowser can just sweet spot a nearby ledge therefore making Fortress unpunishable... oh wait... Plus, if you're shielding or dodging Fortress, the Bowser player didn't use it right in the first place.

Even so, it's not enough to do more than maybe add an extra 5% to the total matchup, unless sheik is better than I'm giving her credit for at not getting touched by bowser.

Based on your hypothetical, if you think that makes it an extra 5%, then using Shiek wont make enough of a differance to warrant use, if any difference at all.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Gotcha. It all makes sense now. So that would be the theoretical stage and play.

So... do we present the combined matchup? I'm not sure what's going to go up. MrEh?

 

[Bowser King]

I want to debate in this MU but we keep having separate discussions.

Wouldn't it be wise to do zelda then shiek?

If we wanted to do both we could do that after we complete shiek.

-Bowser King

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

that sounds boh reasonable and wise Bowser King

That's a hypothetical bordering on the next to impossible, but sure, I'll roll with it.

not really. have you SEEN sheik rack up damage?

All Zelda needs to do is make sure she keeps one kill move fresh. Shouldn't be that hard considering her options. And the move decay never seems to do enough to Lightning Kicks anyway. ._.

decay is decay. And keeping one KO move fresh, but having all of them fresh is nicer and means you're a threat in more ways than the one.

Sure. Even if that were the case (I'd bet money it isn't), it's not like Bowser can just sweet spot a nearby ledge therefore making Fortress unpunishable... oh wait... Plus, if you're shielding or dodging Fortress, the Bowser player didn't use it right in the first place.

sheik is faster than metaknight in all ways but cooldown. I grant that fortress probably isn't being used right if being blocked often enough for that to matter, but that doesn't change the fact that sheik can exploit virtually ANY opening and is hard for a slow character to start an assault against.

Based on your hypothetical, if you think that makes it an extra 5%, then using Shiek wont make enough of a differance to warrant use, if any difference at all.

5% in a matchup rating is 5% changing a matchup from 60:40 to 65:45 is quite noticeable and, if you CAN play Sheik and Zelda at levels high enough to do this... then why the hell wouldn't you?

 

[B!squick]

not really. have you SEEN sheik rack up damage?

Have you seen Bowser? O.o

decay is decay. And keeping one KO move fresh, but having all of them fresh is nicer and means you're a threat in more ways than the one.

Right. But it'd probably take a while for Sheik to knock Bowser far enough way to safely transform. Firebreath could be waiting for if you're not careful.

sheik can exploit virtually ANY opening and is hard for a slow character to start an assault against.

Bowser's Dash speed: about average, so you're not refering to this.
Fortress OoS: sex, no slowness here.
Attacks that are quick enough and by no means slow.

What about Bowser exactly do you find slow? The cool down for his DownB?

Also:

sheik is faster than metaknight in all ways but cooldown.

Bowser goes about even against MK. And I think the reason why it's not more equal is precisely because of cool down, not because he attacks fast.

5% in a matchup rating is 5% changing a matchup from 60:40 to 65:45 is quite noticeable and, if you CAN play Sheik and Zelda at levels high enough to do this... then why the hell wouldn't you?

Pikachu is a 60/40 and a couple people thought it could be 65/35. Shiek/Zelda is in no way a worse match up than Pikachu.

 

[rathy Aro]

Unfortunately, if you look at many character matchup threads, it will always go like this:
"Bowser is heavy and has strong attacks. But he is a huge target, has a bad recovery, is extremely slow and no projectile. MU is 70:30 in our favor".

I'm not kidding. It's always like that. Many people underestimate Bowser. In our Sheik example: By saying that the chainlock easily works on Bowser without thinking of Bowser's opportunities with Fire, the Sheik player has an assumption that simply is not correct. He goes ahead thinking of only Bowser's size and how much of an easy target he is. Which isn't true. I can see that when the characters with sweetspots say that, like Zelda's Lightning kicks, but honestly... Bowser is not an amazing character, but he definitely isn't hardcountered by all of the cast, which is always is said to be.

As for Sheik MU... I still think it's slightly in Bowser's advantage. Maybe not 60:40, but 55:45, if we have to settle with that.
Zelda is, without a doubt, 60:40 in Zelda's favour.

The funny thing is that sheik is lower tier than bowser and gets similar discrimination since no one plays sheik(lol). Secondly chainlock works on (about) everyone regardless of being a big target or having a projectile. All I did was ask if chain camping could work. I assumed nothing. In fact only the very first of the sheik mains to come here went on about how bowser was easily gimped, etc.

@JayDeth: Bowser's not that slow, but he's also not that fast either. He's probably below average overall. You have to consider aerial speed, ground speed, prelag on attacks (relative to the rest of the cast and definitely sheik), and postlag. Many of bowser's moves are average speed, but aren't that fast except for like fortress.

off topic: I'm gonna make bowser my new get-decent-with-character-in-one-week-to-show-how-shallow-all-brawl-characters-are character after this discussion. Only because when I beat scrubs they'll think I'm pro because I actually won with bowser when bowser probably has the matchup advantage. lol

 

[B!squick]

You have to consider aerial speed, ground speed, prelag on attacks (relative to the rest of the cast and definitely sheik), and postlag. Many of bowser's moves are average speed, but aren't that fast except for like fortress.

*sigh* I'll touch on the rest of it later, but first, Bowser's attacks.

Sure, Bowser isn't as fast Shiek. Most of her attacks hit sooner. While Bowser has laggy moves (i.e.: FSmash) these moves are used for punishing or from a grab release when applicable. But here's the thing: BOWSER HAS A BETTER ATTACK RANGE. Now, what this means, is that while Shiek may hit quicker, Shiek ALSO has to be closer to be able to attack Bowser, thus giving Bowser more time to hit you. And even when you do hit Bowser, ah well. Bowser is the heaviest character in game and has a faster fall speed than most of the cast(1), so he's not going anywhere anytime soon.

Moving on to aerial speed. Even to the human eye, Bowser has an average fall speed if you don't want to be overally technical about it(2) and has an "A" class aerial movement speed(3).

Now for ground speed, which Bowser rates about average(4)(5).

Conclusion?

BOWSER IS NOT SLOW! =_=

(1)http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546&highlight=speed
(2)http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=152768&highlight=speed
(3)http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167952&highlight=speed
(4)http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=152360&highlight=speed
(5)http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=145760&highlight=speed

 

[rathy Aro]

I've just been watching through a bunch of bowser vids (cuz I'm gonna play him) and as many sheik vs bowser vids as I can get. Trust me when I say I hold no prejudice against bowser since the first brawl tier list. That said I really can't see how bowser has the advantage in this matchup.

Sheik racking damage twice as fast as bowser is VERY realistic. Needles punish everything and force approaches. Bowser does outrange her, but its not like you're fighting a marth with a wall of disjointed hitboxes from a no lag aerial. You CAN punish bowser (though I admit in the vids I saw ALL of the bowsers should have been using fortress more if it works like you guys have been saying) through maneuvering around with quick aerials and tilts. Plus one hit usually leads to at least one or two more.

Ummmm... Chainguarding works (feel free to do testing to disprove this cuz all of those bowsers probably had no sheik experience lol) and once bowser upBs while recovering he's safe, but before that fair can potentially gimp him (note: gimps don't happen all the time and will not be the primary way to kill!). Chain works as well as it normally does on bowser. ftilt-> tipper usmash is pretty reasonably on bowser since you should be able to have ftilt decayed. Even if not downsmash at the side of the stage at like 100 percent -> run away -> full hop -> transform is pretty safe.

And, what else... Bowser's fire can be a ***** especially when sheik is recovering. Sheik should just recover low to be safe. Bowser's ftilt is annoying but it can be dealt with. Bowser can do a lot of stuff from grab release, but none of it is too big a deal except fair. The gimpy combo (fsmash) is still ****. Fortress is pretty **** (unfortunately I don't think I saw it used extremely well).

All that considered and considering some of the bowsers I saw against sheik weren't that good I would say sheik vs. bowser is probably 55:45 sheik and sheik/zelda is atleast 60:40 (I didn't see anyone use sheik/zelda so I can onlyassume).

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Have you seen Bowser? O.o

yes. he's a particularly large target on which to wrack up damage.

Right. But it'd probably take a while for Sheik to knock Bowser far enough way to safely transform. Firebreath could be waiting for if you're not careful.

not at all. The second you have to recover we can run to the other side of the stage and transform safely. or we can jump transform and be way to high for you to get us. you aren't punishing us for transforming and it's NOT hard to find an opening to do so.

Bowser's Dash speed: about average, so you're not refering to this.
Fortress OoS: sex, no slowness here.
Attacks that are quick enough and by no means slow.

you can't approach OoS, dash attack, running umash and running sheild aren't going to scare sheik so his run speed has nothing to do with his slowlness. his attacks are slow on average... certainly MUCH slower than sheik's.

What about Bowser exactly do you find slow? The cool down for his DownB?

sheik doesn't just have a frame advantage on Bowser, it's a sizeable frame advantage.

Also:


Bowser goes about even against MK. And I think the reason why it's not more equal is precisely because of cool down, not because he attacks fast.

Also, MK doesn't have needles to force an approach and is noticeably lighter

Pikachu is a 60/40 and a couple people thought it could be 65/35. Shiek/Zelda is in no way a worse match up than Pikachu.

could be just as bad. Seriously I don't know where you are getting your Zelda/Sheik information...

 

[Red Arremer]

I do have MU experience with Sheik, Zelda/Sheik and Zelda. Not much, and I'm not that much of a good player, but I had it. Not to mention I play the pair occasionally, as well.

As said, Sheik is fast and has her needles. However, that's all she has the upper hand in in this MU. If she starts to hit Bowser and gets him into a combo, she's going to rack damage on him like a mad(wo)man, but the emphasis is on the IF. Sheik is outranged by Bowser in pretty much every way, and Fortress' invincibility frames are not going to help Sheik in getting Bowser. Especially when Sheik is above Bowser, she's going to have major problems. The needles aren't as strong in shield pressuring as Din's Fire, and Din isn't already an especially good pressure tool. Remember that Bowser has one of the best shields in the game and focusses mainly on defensive game. Also, don't forget that Sheik has a far harder time than Zelda not only because of the KO problems, but mainly because Bowser's grab release works by FAR better on Sheik than on Zelda.

I really doubt that Sheik has an advantage in this matchup. Really really doubt.

 

[MrEh]

Anyway, if we're going to add sheik to the whole deal, might as well give my input. I'm going with 60-40, sheik's favor. I want to say 55-45 to represent slight advantage, but 60-40 is as good as anything else in that regard.

Sheik doesn't have the advantage. Sure, Sheik can rack up damage. Too bad Bowser kills Sheik twice as early as she kills him. I've played this matchup a lot, and I'm pretty sure it's neutral.

What about MrEh's mentioning of needle camping? It might warrant that 55-45 that you're not so keen on. Sure, we could ledge camp that thing, or maybe approach with klaw hopping...

No, I think that it's 50-50 with camping. Honestly, if Sheik didn't have her Needles and Chain, the matchup would be slightly in Bowser's favor.

Also, MK doesn't have needles to force an approach and is noticeably lighter

Only slightly lighter. Bowser still kills Sheik hella early.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The needles aren't as strong in shield pressuring as Din's Fire,

needles are a better camping tool usually. they do more damage normally and are almost always safer as well.

 

[Red Arremer]

needles are a better camping tool usually. they do more damage normally and are almost always safer as well.

I dunno, they don't strike me as a better shield pressuring tool as Din, but I won't object to your knowledge.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Bowser is not slow, does not have slowness, or fall slow, he is not slow. Seriousily, STOP CALLING BOWSER SLOW its very annoying.