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A Guide to DI, Smash DI, C-stick DI, Teching and Crouch Cancelling --- Updated

Magus420

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I'm curious as to why no one's mentioned changing the blanket statement on not being able to smash-DI throws yet. For the most part they can not, but Jigglypuff's f-throw is at least one exception if nothing else.

Very nice guide though.
 

Doraki

Smash Lord
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Thanks Magus, you're right. Does anyone knows of any other throws that has hitlag ?

I added 2 sections about teching, which are also very important :


How Smash DI helps edge teching :

When you get hit near the edge, for example by Marth's f-smash, your trajectory don't send you into the wall at all.
At middle %, a simple ASDI towards the stage will make you hit the wall, as long as you aren't sent away too fast. It works just like how ASDIing down makes you stay grounded .

However, at higher %age, this won't be enough. Moreover, the more damage you get from the hit, the longer you'll stay in hitlag before you tech, which means a more difficult timing for pressing L, because those hitlag frames are removed from the 20 frames window for the tech.

Now, if you learn to press L and do a Smash DI around 15-20 frames later, the tech will be guaranteed :
Instead of waiting for hitlag to end and use ASDI to touch the wall, the hitlag will transfer into teching the moment you did the smash DI.
This is very easy : Press L, then slam the stick towards the stage. Regardless of what your opponent is doing, it'll most likely work.

As to what happens afterwards, the moment when you tech doesn't matter, everything will be as if you only teched at the end of the hitlag : you will start moving again at the end of the hitlag and you'll still have invincibility frames then.
I think that using smash DI also makes wall-jumping easier since you have more time (the remaining hitlag frames) to press up on the control stick.

Teching isn't button mashing :

In order to tech, you have to get a precise timing and not resort to button mashing.
Whenever you press L, it enables you to tech in the 20 following frames, but it also prevents you completely from using L to tech again in the following 40 frames.

It's not obvious, but it's very important when you're being comboed.
Has it ever happened to you, when you're being comboed,that you missed a tech even though you pressed L at the right time ?
This is the reason it didn't work. You had pressed L earlier and you didn't wait enough time before pressing L again to tech.
Note that if this happens, you can keep missing techs.

A guaranteed way to miss every tech is to press L too often, like twice per second.

When you're comboing, listening to your opponent's controller can be useful in some cases. Sometimes you know he won't be able to tech the following move of your combo.

Also, L-cancelling involves pressing L so you may want to learn to L-cancel without pushing the shoulder button the whole way (it's unnecesary), or to L-cancel with Z.
Just in case.
 

K1T3

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Thanks for the update... I've been trying to get my edge teching down, so this should help a lot. So if I understand it correctly when I up b back to the stage and get hit with marths forward smash, should I wait about 20 after the hit and then press L and smash DI toward the stage?
I feel like a noob about this, I knew you could L cancel with z, but when using L you don't have to push it all the way to make the click? So can I L-cancel by pushing it as lightly as I would for using my light shield?
 

Doraki

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No no, you press L way before you're hit.
you start recovering, then when you're nearing the edge, you press L, then you smash DI towards the stage.
If you're using doc or marth for example, you can do your Up-B and press L at the same time.
If you're using fox or falco you should press L just after you start moving (in general but that's the idea)

The moment you're smash DIing should be about the moment you're reaching the edge, i.e. when you're hit.

Yes, pressing L/R lightly is enough to l cancel.
 

K1T3

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Wow, that sounds so strange, I had always thought one would press L when or just after they were hit. European smashers are too good. Thanks a lot... this is the first time i've learned something new and strange about smash except for when you started the thread that is.
Oh another quick question. When hit with a tap normally people follow it up with a grab or smash or something but when I see Ken or Chu or Azen play when they're hit with a tap they DI quite a bit back so the only thing that you can follow up with is a dash grab or aerial or something. To do this do you smash DI when they tap you or a little after and then just keep holding away to ASDI and regular DI? I've been trying to DI that much from just a tap but it doesn't seem to work. Any suggestions?
 

Magus420

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I'd say that throws that create hitboxes (other than the person being thrown of course) at the time of release are the most likely candidates for being SDI-able (if there are any others), as that's a distinguishing feature of jiggs' f-throw since it blasts surrounding chars at the same time they are thrown (don't have AR to test so maybe I'm wrong there), and can hit them with the person being thrown afterwards as well. For example, while mewtwo's d-throw can hit others with his tail when he slaps it down, that hit isn't the one that sends them flying so it's not really similar. I can't really think of any others off the top of my head besides jiggs' f-throw that hits and throws at the same time however.

When you tested it with the f-throw, did the blast and throw happen on the same frames? I'd imagine they would. It seems to me like the f-throw basically holds them in place to get hit by the hitbox jiggs makes that surrounds her, as nearby chars take the same trajectory and knockback as the person being thrown. If there are any other throws that have this same kind of effect I'd say they are most likely SDI-able as well.
 

eet

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so whats up with like sometimes Ill upsmash with fox at say 130 and the opponent goes only like 10 feet in the air?

is this related to smash DI or what?
 

eet

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well somehow i dont think its a glitch, or rather if it is, there may be some way of controlling it, as it has happened to me on several occasions.
 

Rhyme

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once when i was playing with a group of my n00b friends, one of them smashed me with a homerun bat, and somehow i teched instantly on the ground and tumbled all the way across FD due to the momentum. i never understood what had happened untill reading that post, but i guess it must have been a good combination of SDI, ASDI, and teching.

btw, you mentioned forbiden DI on moves like fox's smash A down. i believe that you can tech that kind of attack, although DI never works.

speaking of phantom hits, i got a phantom hit on C. falcon's grab once, and we happened to have the recording equipment running, so i have proof if anyone wants it!

and after reading that long, informative post, it appears i have a lot more work to do than i thought. lol
 

Double N Dann

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I have seen what eet is talking about before. i've seen it with fox's usmash and falco's over smash and even CF's knee when the character taking the hit DEFINITELY should have died. BUT apparently if you're awesome enough you can do a super DI in which you perfectly DI (as in perpindicular to the direction the hit sends you) and somehow smash DI against the move. I don't know if the second part of that is actually possible, but I can't see any other way to do it.

oh and when I say they definitely should've died, I mean that all the occurences were on FD and all the chars that got hit were 100%+
 

Rhyme

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sorry, we encountered a small technical problem with our computer. we were recording on a laptop, and when we turned the laptop on, nothing but the screen display appeared. going to the task manager shows that 100% of the computer's processing power is in use, even though we did not open any aplications or anything. im going over his house tomorrow and we should be able to fix it, so i should be able to get you the video within a few days. my appolagies again.
 

bornfidelity.com

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So for teching, say, Marth's fsmash with say, Falco's recovery.

You can
- press L and hold up both from like, when firebird is halfway through
OR
- hold L from, whenever, and smash the control stick upwards & towards the stage, right as you get hit?

(in order to tech, of course). Is this correct?
 

bornfidelity.com

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I did, but my question basically was
Now, if you learn to press L and do a Smash DI around 15-20 frames later, the tech will be guaranteed :
Instead of waiting for hitlag to end and use ASDI to touch the wall, the hitlag will transfer into teching the moment you did the smash DI.
This is very easy : Press L, then slam the stick towards the stage. Regardless of what your opponent is doing, it'll most likely work.
does this mean you can hold L forever as long as you smash the stick to that angle within 20 frames before the hit?
I was bit confused there.

(and OMG I got your evil post ;))
 

Scintillatedseed

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So, if I want ot use ASDI I have to push the control stick during the first frame(or before the first frame) of my hitlag? While if I use smash DI i have to hit hte control stick in the 3-18 frames of getting hit?

And you can use 'z' to l-cancel?! That's crazy, crazy talk I say!
 

moogle

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Ask Isai how long we've known about Smash DI in ssb64. ;)

Just playin. I didn't know 64-style DI (aka Smash DI) existed in ssbm until reading this thread. But I don't claim to be too knowledgeable about ssbm.

Most people think there's no DI in ssb64. It's true that there's no way to influence your trajectory when you're hit (unless you fly into a wall or something), but there is Smash DI in ssb64, which definitely has its uses in breaking combos. I'm pretty sure there's no Automatic Smash DI (ASDI) in ssb64, but you can do Multiple Smash DI's on a single hit.

There was a recent discovery in ssb64 (quite rare these days), of something effectively similar to edge teching in ssb64, and it involved Smash DI. I don't know if it will be useful to ssbm players, but I figure it's worth a shot. If you're interested, read this post and all the ones after: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=1530054#post1530054

You can probably guess I'm mostly an ssb64 player, but I do some ssbm too. I must say, though, this is one of the best posts I've seen on smashboards. Excellent info, Doraki. :)
 

DonkeyWaffle

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Wow, DI has always been a pretty confusing topic for me. This should help a whole lot next time I'm practicing, hopefully I can figure most of the stuff out. Great guide!
 

krazyzyko

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Fox's drill can only be teched if the opponent hits the ground and bounces stunned (because didn't teched) and Fox's drill comes in. I just wanted ya'll to know. Great guide!

..........later
 

Davidyor

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so, if i want to do a walltech after recovering (with falco) its better press the control stick toward the stage when pressing R/L?

i always thought you have to press L + up if you want to make a walljump... does it also work without pressing up?
 

Doraki

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it's better to time the moment you press the control stick towards the stage at the moment you're hit, thus a bit after pressing L/R.
In order to walltechjump you have to press up or diagonal up (it works too).
You could try smash DIing diagonally instead of horizontally, or just smashing to the side then rotating the stick, you don't need to be very fast in general.
 

Hozart

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Good stuff Doraki. I wonder what the criteria is for a sticky, because this seems like it should at least be put into the "Wavedashing, L-cancelling, All The Terms! Read First! Update 6/30/06!" thread.
 

Zander805

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Hey Doraki, your guide is really good man!

Maybe this is the wrong place to ask this, but if I'm Falco, and Marth has me in a CG, how should I DI if I want to Shine him when he tries to catch me?
 

Wak

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don't DI. You need to be sent straight up so that your stun can wear off before you reach ground level.
I'll give my 2 cents: DI upward, once you're sent, DI a little bit BEHIND the marth. If you do it correctly, he will try to do a standing grab but will miss because you will be suddently a little bit too far behing to get grabbed.

*disappears*
 

Doraki

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true.
and jumping out on the first possible frame is super easy to do, just press jump while falling and wait a bit. You can input the jump way before the stun ends and it'll make you jump automatically.

Anyway, a good marth will do an uptilt in those cases.
 

phanna

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So it appears Falco's dthrow and Jiggly's fthrow both have hitlag (can be smash DI'd, and fox can shine immediately out of them). Are we aware of any others, or is this something that's being looked into at all?
 
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