A Great Evil Walks the Earth, the Ganondorf in Smash Bros. Ultimate Discussion

[King9999]

So take this with a grain of salt, but here are some early tier lists from top players: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9vchd6/i_combined_zeros_nairos_abadangos_and_dabuzs/

All of them have Ganon in high/upper-mid tier.

 

[meleebrawler]

So take this with a grain of salt, but here are some early tier lists from top players: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9vchd6/i_combined_zeros_nairos_abadangos_and_dabuzs/

All of them have Ganon in high/upper-mid tier.

This does reek of early Smash 4 Bowser overratedness, but you can't deny a lot of the system changes in Ultimate greatly benefit Ganondorf.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

So take this with a grain of salt, but here are some early tier lists from top players: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9vchd6/i_combined_zeros_nairos_abadangos_and_dabuzs/

All of them have Ganon in high/upper-mid tier.

Everything is subject to change as time passes. Ganondorf could potentially see an average tier spot, but it all comes down to if his low mobility doesn't entirely hold him back like it did in Smash 3DS / Wii U.

 

[godogod]

lol There's no way we can get a remotely accurate tier placement this early, especially when its not readily available to test and that often, and all these top players have only played a few times and likely with a half a dozen different characters at the most.. and the likeliness of balance patches changing things up on day 1 being very high.

Also, this poll needs options like, "I like it, but don't want a complete revamp." I don't get why its so black and white.

 

[Deleted member]

Let me preface this by saying I am stoked that for the first time since Melee, NO characters are cut, which really is the most important thing I think to a lot of people.
I love love love what what they did with characters like Ike, Bayonetta, Wario, Robin, etc. giving them alternate looks.

But with the Legend of Zelda series...even though no one was cut I feel like we've lost characters. All Twilight Princess representation is gone, and for a series that sports different incarnations/appearances of the three main Triforce wielders, I don't understand why we couldn't have had an Ike/Bayonetta etc. situation.

I do kind of understand Link, since they revamped him and made him right-handed. Fine. And you know what? It's awesome that we can select a version of Link with the tunic of the wild, so we can still have a classic-looking Link.

But then, WHY couldn't we have had both a TP Zelda and ALttP Zelda? Or better yet, bring back OoT Zelda too! Mario has 3 costumes. And WHY couldn't we keep TP Ganondorf along with OoT Ganondorf? They could both have wielded a sword! UGGHGHHH Sakuraiiiiiiiii missed opportunityyyyy

 

[NintendoKnight]

lol There's no way we can get a remotely accurate tier placement this early, especially when its not readily available to test and that often, and all these top players have only played a few times and likely with a half a dozen different characters at the most.. and the likeliness of balance patches changing things up on day 1 being very high.

Also, this poll needs options like, "I like it, but don't want a complete revamp." I don't get why its so black and white.

As much as I like the idea of Ganondorf being top tier, I have no idea what these pro players think they're doing coming up with tier lists to an unreleased game. They did this in Sm4sh as well, and they claimed Duck Hunt was overpowered. Don't take any tier lists seriously until after 4-6 months have passed since the game's release. Also, patches throw the balance into disarray and the addition of new characters doesn't help. Why do we even need tier lists so soon anyway? It's the epitome of pointless at this moment.

The poll options were decided before Ultimate's official reveal (and not directly by me. If I came up with them myself, there would've been fewer choices and they would've been even more black and white). It's practically obsolete now since we know how Ganondorf plays in Ultimate and have known since July. I'm going to see what I can do to change it as time goes on.

 

[godogod]

Is he better than his melee version? I think he is. I think he'll be mid tier at best. I don't think any heavy is gonna be high tier (zero thinks k rool is a sleeper for high tier. lol).

 

[Rizen]

IDK how K Rool plays and can't comment about him but agree Ganon will probably be mid tier at best. The problem is he gets out-buttoned by practically everyone. Ryu, for example, is near Ganon, they both press buttons>Ryu wins. A f7 jab is a real handicap.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

IDK how K Rool plays and can't comment about him but agree Ganon will probably be mid tier at best. The problem is he gets out-buttoned by practically everyone. Ryu, for example, is near Ganon, they both press buttons>Ryu wins. A f7 jab is a real handicap.

Frankly, the first jab of any neutral attack really shouldn't take more than 5 frames for their hitboxes to activate. In Smash 3DS / Wii U, a fighter with a frame 6 grab could easily grab Bowser before he even gets a chance to land his first jab.

Anyway, Smash Ultimate Ganondorf probably won't be better than his Melee counterpart, since in Melee, he actually had a very quick jab that could get fighters off his face; it hits on frame 3, based on the data that SmashWiki has recorded.

 

[godogod]

Jab isn't everything though. He has fast Aerials, jump squat, possibly faster dash speed, and more range on smash attacks(though slower)

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I had a chance to replay a bit of Sm4sh WiiU at my parents this weekend, and I've gotta say again...

What. The. ****. Did. They. Do. To. The. Dorf's. Model.

I am so excited for Ultimate since I'm tired of seeing a derpy Dorf. I prefer the Twilight PRincess design (ok, Hyrule Warriors is the best hands down), but Brawl's version was so much better than Sm4sh's that I'm not sure what they did wrong. Then again, all of the Zelda crew looked better in Brawl than they did in 4...but it shows the worst for Ganon.

Just another month and we'll get to see the new moves in action...and I'm just happy he's not slow as **** anymore. The sword smashes are just a bonus.

 

[Deleted member]

I had a chance to replay a bit of Sm4sh WiiU at my parents this weekend, and I've gotta say again...

What. The. ****. Did. They. Do. To. The. Dorf's. Model.

I am so excited for Ultimate since I'm tired of seeing a derpy Dorf. I prefer the Twilight PRincess design (ok, Hyrule Warriors is the best hands down), but Brawl's version was so much better than Sm4sh's that I'm not sure what they did wrong. Then again, all of the Zelda crew looked better in Brawl than they did in 4...but it shows the worst for Ganon.

Just another month and we'll get to see the new moves in action...and I'm just happy he's not slow as **** anymore. The sword smashes are just a bonus.

I definitely know what you mean, Ganondorf's face in Smash 4 is wonky and derpy. I think it's because they made his eyes too big mostly. Link kinda looks less like the TP Link and more like a mix between that and OoT Link (artwork, specifically), or even the TP artwork where his face/nose is more narrow--so I think it works. I think Zelda looks absolutely gorgeous in Smash 4, except when she opens her mouth; it looks derpy. Also Toon Link actually looks like Toon Link in Smash 4 so that was a good artistic change.

 

[King9999]

That f-smash is so good. Can't jump in on Ganon.

 

[Dan_Sic]

So take this with a grain of salt, but here are some early tier lists from top players: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9vchd6/i_combined_zeros_nairos_abadangos_and_dabuzs/

All of them have Ganon in high/upper-mid tier.

Man... there's no consensus on Ridley... I secretly want him to at least be viable and see him in tournament.

Emmmh, yeah back to topic, Ganondorf and Zelda seem to rank high in everyone's list, so yay!

 

[NintendoKnight]

So I made this in like 5 minutes:

It's Ultimate Ganondorf with a beard. Just because.

 

[King9999]

I'm excited for this new iteration of Ganon, and especially for the top Ganon players who pick him up.

 

[King9999]

 

[SaiyanFGC]

Hey guys, new member here. Been a Villager/Ganon main since Smash 4, going to start streaming them while I train for tournaments. But that isn't why I'm here.

I'm putting together a bible of sorts where I have all the information needed for Ganon and Villager;

• Detailed list of their moves w/ frame data (once the game comes out).
• Reasons why they should be picked up
• My thoughts on both characters and how they've changed on Smash 4
• Bread and Butter moves
• Match Up thoughts

I've begun working on it with some introductions and basic info and I was wondering if this was something people would be interested in.

I can't seem to see a discord for Ganon mains so that is something I could make if needed but if someone has a link then can I get one for that, please.

Other than that, I hope everyone is as excited for the game as I am and I'll see you on the Battlefield!

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Been playing Ganon and he is significantly better. Feels like nothing has any landing lag. Nerfs on Uair were blown out of proportion and that move is still insane. You're all gonna be very happy when you get to play this character. With the 1v1 damage boost you die after 2 reads.

 

[I Like Link]

I really love how much Ganondorf's jab was buffed. Although this includes the 20% damage buff that applies to everyone, it now does 13.8%. It does 11.5 by default, with no sourspot. In Smash 4 it did as low as 6% with no stale since there were sourspots. Going from 13.8 from as low as 6 is a huge deal.

You could see it here at the beginning of this video. Wizard's foot also does 20%.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDK0njnz33Q

 

[NintendoKnight]

I really love how much Ganondorf's jab was buffed. Although this includes the 20% damage buff that applies to everyone, it now does 13.8%. It does 11.5 by default, with no sourspot. In Smash 4 it did as low as 6% with no stale since there were sourspots. Going from 13.8 from as low as 6 is a huge deal.

You could see it here at the beginning of this video. Wizard's foot also does 20%.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDK0njnz33Q

He always lacked those good "get off me" moves. His jab was amazing in Melee, was eh in Brawl, and wasn't good in Sm4sh until it was buffed back to eh. Now, it seems to have been buffed back to amazing.

 

[King9999]

IMPORTANT NOTE

Ganoncide doesn't get you the win on last stock anymore.

 

[Lozjam]

The Evil King feels awesome in Smash Ultimate. His buffs have been an incredible, and he is really amazing. His knockback and general damage has been really bugged just around the board, his landing lag is really buffed as well. His jab is probably one of the best in the roster as well, it’s great. And having a way to get a bit more reach, has also been pretty good.

He feels very viable and a lot more fun now. He is still a heavily flawed character due to his slower airspeed and movement speed, and bad recovery. However, I think that Ganondorf has a solid chance against most characters. It really only takes one good read to turn the tide, which is so much better than 4, where it took about 3. He finally has become a very high risk, but high reward character he was meant to be.

From what I played so far:
Young Link seems to be an unfavorable matchup. But, unlike Smash 4. Playing that unfavorable matchup was a lot more fun. It’s so much better than the, “okay, I will put my controller down because I am getting combo’d and gimped all of the time”. But yeah, it was really fun, because Ganondorf has a lot more tools at his disposal.

 

[Volksdragen]

I agree with Lozjam. Ganondorf feels far better than he did in Smash 4. The overall game mechanic changes, and buffs to his moves, have really helped him.

However, as has been said before, his low mobility and poor recovery definitely hinder him in certain matchups. Small, fast characters with projectiles (like Young Link and Inkling) are particularly tough to deal with. Although, these matchups are definitely not unwinnable. I think mastering the new perfect shield/parry will go a long way in making these matchups easier.

Also, side note: directional airdodge is (in some ways) a buff to Ganondorf's recovery. I've been using it to snap to the ledge to avoid ledgeguard attempts, to great success. It can also be used if you are very far from the stage (but high in the air) to close the gap between Ganon and the stage (prior to second jump or Up-B). Using this method, I've gotten back onstage from distances where Smash 4 Ganon would have definitely died.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Agree as well. And holy hell his smashes are powerful af. U smash is awesome for plats.

 

[Rizen]

I still have to unlock Ganon

 

[THE 6r]

Playing some Ganon and, I must say, I'm already a fan. It took a little getting used to (considering I was so used to Smash 4 Ganondorf), but I'm starting to get the hang of it.

 

[rau]

Who would you guys consider to be a good character to learn aside from Ganondorf? Was considering Marth due to having good spacing.

 

[Rizen]

Who would you guys consider to be a good character to learn aside from Ganondorf? Was considering Marth due to having good spacing.

In terms of tier ****ing, Chrome and Pika are looking like top picks. If you're looking for someone to make up for Ganon's downsides Young Link is pretty much the yin to his yang with camping.

I finally unlocked Ganon earlier today but haven't used him yet.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I think all the Marth clones are going to do well with the disjoints. It seems aerials are the bread and butter this time around.

I mained mega man in S4 so I think he will be very complimentary for Ganon and supposedly got buffed, I have unlocked him yet. Should be good against pika and some of the fast guys.

 

[rau]

In terms of tier ****ing, Chrome and Pika are looking like top picks. If you're looking for someone to make up for Ganon's downsides Young Link is pretty much the yin to his yang with camping.

I finally unlocked Ganon earlier today but haven't used him yet.

Yeah I was thinking of something more in the lines of covering Ganondorf's weaknesses. Young Link seems interesting but I'm a bigger fan of Link and his remote bomb stuff.

 

[Quillion]

I think all the Marth clones are going to do well with the disjoints. It seems aerials are the bread and butter this time around.

Ganon's disjoints are all limited to Smashes, though. Gotta admit, from a competitive standpoint, it would've been nice if he had one or two sword aerials (probably just b-air and f-air, IMO).

 

[King9999]

The matchup vs. Belmonts is not in Ganon's favour. He can be kept out with the whip, and the holy water beats Wiz Foot clean. You'll need to play a more patient game against Belmont players.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Ganondorf kicked Isabelle in the face, he is truly the King of Evil (spoilers that's how he wins the set):

I love how he just 'Wizard Foot' his way through Isabelle's Lloyd mines like it was nothing. The fishing rod tho, seems very tricky to deal with for an offstage Dorf (in this sequence particularly).

Just so you know Vermanubis finished 9th at 'Don't park on the grass', it was the first major for smash Ultimate.

 

[link2702]

I’m probably gonna get some dirty looks for this...but I honestly miss some stuff from 4 ganon....

Ganonciding giving us the kill, better usmash, and probably my favorite move, uair... all were nerfed in ultimate. Uair especially in ultimate feels sluggish, and no longer has that semi spike hitbox it used to at the end...

 

[Union of Darkness]

I’m probably gonna get some dirty looks for this...but I honestly miss some stuff from 4 ganon....

Ganonciding giving us the kill, better usmash, and probably my favorite move, uair... all were nerfed in ultimate. Uair especially in ultimate feels sluggish, and no longer has that semi spike hitbox it used to at the end...

A common theme in Ultimate is nerfing characters' most overpowered moves and making everything else better. For Ganondorf that basically applies to all the moves you mentioned.

 

[link2702]

A common theme in Ultimate is nerfing characters' most overpowered moves and making everything else better. For Ganondorf that basically applies to all the moves you mentioned.

Which is dumb because none of those moves were really overpowered in anyway. Sure they were some of Ganon’s best moves, but best move doesn’t mean overpowered move, I mean this is Ganondorf we’re talking about here, in the context of smash I can’t think of anything he’s ever had that could be considered “overpowered”, his 4 usmash was about the closest it came.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I agree Ganoncide being nerfed is dumb that should be a in Dorf's favor.
Up air while a nerfed its not by alot and still a really good move.

Idk why ppl miss old up smash. sure it was fast and was spam able but now we have so much disjoint and we can hit in front, above and behind us.
It catches ppl through platforms great and it really isnt that slow at all.

Old upsmash should've been new up tilt if anything.
But I'm loving the new smashes.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

New upsmash is so much better. The sword is so strong and huge range.

On ganoncide being most games are 3 stock it still helps to go for it if you have a stock lead or a big percent disadvantage.

I have yet to play someone to successfully mash out.

 

[NintendoKnight]

New upsmash is so much better. The sword is so strong and huge range.

On ganoncide being most games are 3 stock it still helps to go for it if you have a stock lead or a big percent disadvantage.

I have yet to play someone to successfully mash out.

Mashing out at high percent is friggin impossible. Mashing out at LOW percent is still really hard.

I noticed that all non-knockback based suicide moves were universally determined to have the user die first. Bowser's, Ganon's, and Ridley's Side-B's, as well as Kirby's and Dedede's inhales, and DK's cargo throw all kill them before their victim. (Most of these were already the case, but Ganon and Ridley were lined up to be identical in in that design)

Which, despite my being slightly upset at the lack of certain victory by Ganoncide, is actually probably for the best as a balance decision. In Sm4sh you could land game-winning Ganoncides like clockwork, and that was while playing as an inferior Ganon.

We now have a Ganondorf that brings with him an actual fear factor. He hasn't had this since Melee. Now imagine this Ganondorf with an instant win button such as "victim-dies-first" Ganoncide. It would almost be like playing pre-nerf 3DS Bowser all over again, except better.