A Great Evil Walks the Earth, the Ganondorf in Smash Bros. Ultimate Discussion

[King9999]

So the only buff Ganon got in 3.1.0 is a change to D-smash so that it hits more consistently. Multi-hit moves connecting better seems to be the general theme of this patch.

 

[Arrei]

Yep, but was anyone aware of when Dsmash would fail to link properly in the first place? I mentioned elsewhere that the move seemed very reliable even when hitting an opponent at the far edge of the first hit, but I did have it fail once or twice and I don't recall what scenario it did so in, in order to see if they've truly removed that chance of failure.



Edit: Wow, they REALLY made it reliable. I clipped a foe who rolled through me at the edge so they were pretty much behind me and it still put them in the correct place for the second hit, instead of sending them too far like I'd expect.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

seems like everyone's hype-freak out for ganon at tournaments is fading

the only solo ganon main i see consistently is bloodynite and the rest either don't show up as often or ganon's just a pocket character to them

 

[King9999]

Yep, but was anyone aware of when Dsmash would fail to link properly in the first place? I mentioned elsewhere that the move seemed very reliable even when hitting an opponent at the far edge of the first hit, but I did have it fail once or twice and I don't recall what scenario it did so in, in order to see if they've truly removed that chance of failure.



Edit: Wow, they REALLY made it reliable. I clipped a foe who rolled through me at the edge so they were pretty much behind me and it still put them in the correct place for the second hit, instead of sending them too far like I'd expect.

It was like 98% reliable. Occasionally, the first hit would send the opponent flying away from Ganon.

 

[fogbadge]

so zombie ganondorf for future alt?

 

[Garo]

so zombie ganondorf for future alt?

Maybe next Smash. We actually glimpsed him with a trident, so perhaps Smash Ganondorf will finally get an alter ego like the other two thirds of the Triforce trio. I'd be down.

 

[Naroghin]

I'd be all about a trident Ganon. I'd generally be all about more characters with weapon archetypes other than shooter, puncher, sworder, and magic-er.

 

[Xelrog]

I'd rather fat Ganon with a trident than another version of the human Ganondorf. We don't have a superheavy that uses a melee weapon.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'd rather fat Ganon with a trident than another version of the human Ganondorf. We don't have a superheavy that uses a melee weapon.

Did Macho Dedede replace the normal version when we weren't looking?

 

[Xelrog]

Did Macho Dedede replace the normal version when we weren't looking?

Yeah, I realized I misspoke soon after the post. My bad. I should have said a superheavy with a bladed weapon. A trident or sword would be faster than Dedede's hammer of all things, of course.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I don't know if you guys have seen this already, but The Duke of Dorks has shown off a video of his idea of a original Ganondorf moveset and it's pretty solid.

 

[Xelrog]

I would feel very betrayed if they threw away current Dorf for a complete rework. Which is exactly why they've never done that with a character.

 

[link2702]

I’d rather they threw out the current one.

Him being just a slow falcon isn’t working. Ganondorf needs a rework, he needs a way to handle rushdowns and projectile zoners. He needs a reliable recovery..

Each new smash that comes out now, he does ok for the first month or two, then plummets after everyone has figured out both the universal changes, and his specific ones. Once everyone has a grasp on the matchup, ganondorf can’t do much.

 

[Quillion]

I would feel very betrayed if they threw away current Dorf for a complete rework. Which is exactly why they've never done that with a character.

Hell, the sword was already a betrayal in itself. What about the people who wanted the elbow and kicks?

 

[Xelrog]

Hell, the sword was already a betrayal in itself. What about the people who wanted the elbow and kicks?

I love the sword. Changes are fine, as long as the base kit is still there. I would only have a problem with throwing it out completely.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Hello all. Been awhile! After a long time playing Ultimate Ganondorf I gotta say I'm really pleased with him overall.
Everything just works as intended on him and it feels good to outplay your opponent with a competent mid tier character and not an F tier lol.

Unfortunately Ganon still has the worst recovery among all the heavies... and that's his ultimate downfall and we wont see many, if any major tourney wins with him.
I really think his recovery needs a revamp, even if you manage to survive a hit cause of Ganon's weight he rarely makes it back to stage and with poor air mobility and most characters being able to recover very well and go for off stage gimps its often impossible to recover at high level play.
Beyond that his disadvantage state is far too poor (Palutena N-air can drag Ganon across the stage with no issues at all. Yes it's an OP move but it's the worst example).

I think all that is needed at this point to really make Ganon a B tier or even an A tier is just buff the recovery and improve air speed and lessen the disadvantage state.
Best case scenario is even to add a few unique moves to his kit to even further distinguish him from Falcon.

Keep his vertical recovery poor but buff the horizontal one. I think adding a float to his jump like Peach/Daisy will not only add a canon move that he uses in every game but it will eliminate the piss-poor horizontal recovery he has + add much needed pressure on stage and dealing with projectiles.
I think adding super armor or invincibility frames for the first half of Up-B would mean he would be a bit harder to spike and would make Up-B out of shield great (look at new DK Up-B and see how much that aids his kit).
Secondly make his air/spot/roll dodges better something more akin to Mewtwo or Palutena. A further dodge roll would help against shield pressure and Ganon is known to teleport in every game so it works.
Honestly a few simple changes and one added mechanic would bump him up quite a bit and would take him out of low-mid tier.

With all the cool and crazy new mechanics the new dlc characters get I think a look back to redesign some old characters (like Ganon and let's not forget Samus who needs it badly) is more than needed and justified.

If I were to add more cool things I would make Wizard foot a spear charge instead. He already pulls out a sword out of nowhere so his iconic Gerudo spear would be no different. Should function the same but obviously be a bit more disjointed hitbox allowing to trump moves current wizard foot cannot.
Obviously everyone pretty much wants Dead Man's Volley to replace Warlock punch but I think both can fit actually.
If you charge DMV all the way instead of released it with the B button the player presses B+A simultaneously it unleashes a Warlock Punch instead but much faster than the current version (probably not as strong) so it would make an awesome mix up and honestly it should demolish shields just like Volcano Kick does... (think Projecy M Lucario type input).

Beyond that I think Ganon's playstyle is pretty cemented at this point. A few new moves/revamps to current ones and maybe more big magic effect on his current punches and kicks to really sell the Warlock vibe and he is pretty much golden imo.
I highly doubt anything major will change in ultimate. At best I think a buffed air speed better air dodges/rolls maybe even a buffed Up-B with hopefully super armor would be very welcomed tho. Otherwise I'm excited for the future! Realistically it should only get better from here for our boy Ganon.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Heyo, Ganon friends. Tilt stick or smash stick? I lean towards smash stick, because I hate accidental up-tilts. Thoughts?

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Heyo, Ganon friends. Tilt stick or smash stick? I lean towards smash stick, because I hate accidental up-tilts. Thoughts?

Yeah man I stick to smash stick. With Ganon accidental up tilt is kinda bad lol

 

[Gerudo Dragon]

As a Ganondorf main myself, I'm a little dissapointed with Ganondorf in ultimate. I got super excited when they revealed his OoT form was back, but he honestly feels like a mix between Brawldorf and Meleedorf. I hated Brawldorf so much. I couldn't main him at all.

I like using the up-tilt to catch my friends off-guard but its annoying when its accidental. Smash stick prefference here.

 

[Rizen]

It's disappointing Ganon didn't get any buffs last patch. He should be able to act after using sideB offstage and not go into freefall (like Incineroar).

 

[_Ganondorf_]

It's disappointing Ganon didn't get any buffs last patch. He should be able to act after using sideB offstage and not go into freefall (like Incineroar).

this^^^ 100% this
just a better recovery would improve him so much more. A bit longer out of shield grab and just a bit better disadvantage state and tiny speed boost and he can be low high tier easily

 

[Oracle Link]

Ganondorf i have the Master-Sword + the Triforce of Courage now let Zelda go!

 

[Quillion]

Now that Sephiroth is out and he is a lightweight despite how little sense that makes, it makes me wonder:

If Ganondorf had his full range of canonical abilities, sword normals and magic specials, would he need to be a lightweight to compensate?

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Probably. Anyone with such a range of abilities will more likely be a glass cannon than a heavy.

 

[Quillion]

Probably. Anyone with such a range of abilities will more likely be a glass cannon than a heavy.

Maybe canon Ganon could pass off as a heavy if he had slow attacks. I've been playing a bit of Smash Crusade, where as of the most recent update, they outfitted Ganon with all sorts of canonical abilities, and he's honestly pretty OP there due to inexplicably having fast aerials with his sword.

 

[wizfoot]

Now that Sephiroth is out and he is a lightweight despite how little sense that makes, it makes me wonder:

If Ganondorf had his full range of canonical abilities, sword normals and magic specials, would he need to be a lightweight to compensate?

Definitely, in my opinion. Maybe he'd perform similar to Sephiroth with a smaller range and more powerful attacks?

 

[Quillion]

Definitely, in my opinion. Maybe he'd perform similar to Sephiroth with a smaller range and more powerful attacks?

Smaller range, more powerful attacks, but perhaps worse frame data would sound good.

Maybe if he had his lightning ball (preferably without a "tennis" mechanic), it could be charged, but would need to only be thrown only at a downward angle, even if close to the ground.

 

[wizfoot]

Smaller range, more powerful attacks, but perhaps worse frame data would sound good.

Maybe if he had his lightning ball (preferably without a "tennis" mechanic), it could be charged, but would need to only be thrown only at a downward angle, even if close to the ground.

That sounds really interesting. What if it had a hover effect (like how he played Dead Man's Volley in OoT), like Peach? As long as you kept the button pressed, you could hover with it, but only for so long and it can only go at a set angle?

Another thing I'd really like is a Toon Ganon alt. This might just be me, but his Wind Waker incarnation is my personal favorite and I'd love to see how it'd be implemented. No magic, but he could be a fast lightweight swordsman? He had huge jumps in that game and that sweep he did could be a great dair.

 

[Quillion]

That sounds really interesting. What if it had a hover effect (like how he played Dead Man's Volley in OoT), like Peach? As long as you kept the button pressed, you could hover with it, but only for so long and it can only go at a set angle?

I think there are several characters that can stand to ape Peach's float mechanic. Mewtwo, Ganon, Rosalina, Bowser Jr... Maybe even Young Link with the Hover Boots.

Another thing I'd really like is a Toon Ganon alt. This might just be me, but his Wind Waker incarnation is my personal favorite and I'd love to see how it'd be implemented. No magic, but he could be a fast lightweight swordsman? He had huge jumps in that game and that sweep he did could be a great dair.

If he doesn't have magic he could be a Bowser-like speedy Heavyweight. WW Ganon's swords are tiny to begin with.

 

[King9999]

DARK DIVE GOT BUFFED FINALLY. NO MORE GETTING PUNISHED FOR LANDING IT!

 

[Minix0]

He needs so much more than that though. God I miss that old up smash.

Its nice but a mere drop in the bucket.

 

[King9999]

He needs so much more than that though. God I miss that old up smash.

Its nice but a mere drop in the bucket.

Sure, but that one change was something he needed for 20 years.

 

[Minix0]

Sure, but that one change was something he needed for 20 years.

Granted.

 

[Deleted member]

In your opinion, how more viable Ganondorf would have been if he kept this custom moveset from Smash 4 to Ultimate?

 

[Ridley_Prime]

In your opinion, how more viable Ganondorf would have been if he kept this custom moveset from Smash 4 to Ultimate?

His only custom moves that really stood out for me were Dark Fists for up special and Wizard's Dropkick for down special. It would've helped if he still had them as an option, but what didn't help was either the strength or hitbox of some of his basic moves being nerfed from Smash 4 to Ultimate. Down tilt comes to mind for both, though still one of his best few moves in the neutral. The hitbox of back aerial being smaller than before is kinda weird too. His regular up and down specials, Dark Dive and Wizard's Foot, were also made harder to land which further worsened Ganondorf's blindspot issues. Said specials were made stronger, but the nerfs more or less counteract the buffs. Perhaps most of all though was the nerfs to his up aerial, where the sourspot/back hit no longer hits underneath him when used as a rising aerial, thus nerfing most of its gimping effectiveness. Then there's Ganoncide now being escapable by mashing depending on his % and the opponent's and kills him first now even if it does fully land; I know they did this for all the villain command grabs, but it hurt Ganondorf most of all with it previously being one of his few reliable kill options.

Do the other buffs he got (the new sword smash attack and such) make up for those nerfs? Debatable. I'd still argue Ultimate Ganondorf is probably the best Ganon we've had overall (though I don't remember Melee 'Dorf much at this point), but his weaknesses are even more exploitable, making him more polarized than ever. He did not need all those nerfs, unless the intention was to keep him the #1 worst character in the game, which he still is. It was debated for awhile between him, Dr Mario, and Little Mac as to who the worst was, but when the latter two got more buffs during one of the last balance updates, it became inarguable again as to Ganondorf being rock bottom on the tier list, despite being mostly better and in a better spot than he was in previous games, especially Brawl.

No matter what kind of buffs he gets (significant ones that he got from Sm4sh to Ultimate admittedly), he's forever cursed to be a character Nintendo's afraid of ever making that good because of the balancing between competitive and casual, and in casual settings, he's the character to play; someone has to play the noob killer role I guess, and Ganondorf has always fit that to a T.

 

[Deleted member]

Speaking of which, there's another analytic Japanese videomaker who made a video on how they'd buff :

Some of these changes can be seen as jokes, but some of the others like the burying down-throw are interesting.

 

[wizfoot]

i don't like the idea of a burying dthrow. dthrow to nair is probably my favorite ganon B&B

 

[Rizen]

I read the thread title as "a great evil walks into a bar..."

 

[StrangeKitten]

As someone who has destroyed casuals with 20-30 characters including Ganondorf, I find the notion that he's the best at it to be pretty odd. Do folks ever consider how dominating other characters are against casuals? Sonic with his samey attacks and insane speed. Young Link with probably the best set of projectiles in the game. K Rool with two projectiles and a recovery casuals won't know how to edgeguard, with effectively as much staying power as Bowser. Bowser with Flame Breath and his fast moves and great kill power. Incineroar with Revenge stacks for days. Pokemon Trainer with cutscene combos from Squirtle and Ivysaur, topped off with Charizard's Flare Blitz. Ike with his great range and kill power. Little Mac, especially if your friend wants to play on a walkoff. Min Min. Pyra & Mythra. I feel like I don't even need to say what casuals will struggle with vs those two.

I feel like Ganondorf is definitely lacking in comparison, and the kicker to it all is that most of the characters I just mentioned have been buffed since release. Which just makes it all the more baffling to me as to why they refused to properly buff Ganondorf. I don't see how some QoL fixes would have made him such a good casual destroyer as to be completely unable to do them at all.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

I completely agree. Dedede was also mostly untouched during the balance patches though and is worse off than he was before, so not like Ganondorf’s alone there. There’s always going to be some bias with balancing teams I suppose.