A Compromise on MK Legality

[Mr. game and watch]

My 2 cents.

At first I thought this was just silly, but after reading through people make good points.
I'm against MK ban.

About the casual players, what would we do if they played MK and they went to a tourny and we were just like "sorry, you can't use metaknight."

same effect.
If you've paid attention to other threads at all, you'd know that's one reason MK isn't banned.
So people don't rage quit cause their character is gone.

What if someone doesn't main MK cause he da bess, but mains MK cause they like MK.
You don't main ganon cause you wanna be good.
You main ganon cause you like ganon.

Those people who just <3 mk would be mad and either quit or be forced to play someone else.

How is banning 4 moves more drastic than a whole character?

Who cares about smashs rep.
I don't respect SF communities because that game sucks.
Smash is so eunique that it's mind blowing.
All the characters are VERY different.
There's freaking platforms.
You can go off stage and fight mid air.
You can camp.
You can plank.

The list is endless.

If we don't have respect because we have Snake fighting Jigglypuff, that's just stupid.

You don't watch MLP for respect from people who watch other anime.
You watch MLP for MLP.

In short, when it comes to rep, WHO FREAKING CARES?!?!?


This would allow people who actually like MK to still use him.
MK would still be really good.
You could set B to sheild, or grab, or attack.
Whatever you wanted.
Still fun.
This is doable.
It's realistic.

The ONLY ISSUE is "lul jus ban da bat."

how about "lul jus ban da B"?
I'm pro this.

Infact I may consider testing this in tournies.

 

[ElDominio]

Ah, those Akuma players. Those guys that started out using him sure are lucky.
I'm happy the SF crowd catered to them

ah wait

 

[Yink]

...

ROOOOOOOOFL

Just ban him.

Sorta this.

I'm not laughing at the idea, I think it's quite creative. But it seems so ridiculous at this point, considering what we've done for MK thus far. Seems like we're just prolonging his death.

 

[MarKO X]

The crazy thing is...

I could totally see this being the new thing. I could totally see people going to a national a year from now, playing with this no B button having Meta Knight. I could totally see stream monsters getting hyped when people turn off their B button because they about to play that B button-less MetaKnight...

I still find it hilarious that the concept of handicapping a character this much to keep him legal isn't found as "odd" by the higher ups in this community.

 

[-LzR-]

Because the only reason he it the best is because he has great specials.
If you remove his specials, he will be like a crappy Marth clone with a ****load of jumps.

 

[Chaosgriffin]

While i do think something needs to be done to MK. Whether its stage, cp'ing, or whatever. This idea is a bit drastic and changes too many things. If metaknight can not use his B button, i find it as too hard of a nerf to be placed on MK. What about pressure off stage? bad di? he cant do anything about it now, except glide. If his b-button gets taken away, he will undoubtedly no longer be top of the game. But would very well drop to 2-3 tiers. Then, the next broken character would be Diddy. So the plan for him would be to take away his bananas? Snakes grenades? Falco's lasers? Marth's Sword?

While i do think something needs to happen to MK, taking away all his b moves seems a bit much. What about just one move? Nado. Although, i don't see this as feasible due to input error, and then more rules would have to be made if someone accidentally does nado. This idea is quite unigue, and shows that we can probably find atleast something that can tone down MK, but not get rid of him completely as a contender, like i think this change would.

 

[The Ben]

Seriously suggesting banning half of a character's moves might be the strangest thing I've ever heard of from any gaming community. Having special rules to nerf a single character is silly.

 

[-LzR-]

While i do think something needs to be done to MK. Whether its stage, cp'ing, or whatever. This idea is a bit drastic and changes too many things. If metaknight can not use his B button, i find it as too hard of a nerf to be placed on MK. What about pressure off stage? bad di? he cant do anything about it now, except glide. If his b-button gets taken away, he will undoubtedly no longer be top of the game. But would very well drop to 2-3 tiers. Then, the next broken character would be Diddy. So the plan for him would be to take away his bananas? Snakes grenades? Falco's lasers? Marth's Sword?

While i do think something needs to happen to MK, taking away all his b moves seems a bit much. What about just one move? Nado. Although, i don't see this as feasible due to input error, and then more rules would have to be made if someone accidentally does nado. This idea is quite unigue, and shows that we can probably find atleast something that can tone down MK, but not get rid of him completely as a contender, like i think this change would.

It doesn't work like that. Diddy Kong isn't broken and neither is Snake. They both actually have counters too to make for an interesting metagame with balanced characters and more diversity in both characters and stages.

 

[Ussi]

Sorta this.

I'm not laughing at the idea, I think it's quite creative. But it seems so ridiculous at this point, considering what we've done for MK thus far. Seems like we're just prolonging his death.

I'm only supporting this because i think the bat should be banned. In my eyes MK is either being banned or having his specials banned. I figured just banning his specials would still leave 39 characters to play as. So more depth than completely banning the bat

Seriously suggesting banning half of a character's moves might be the strangest thing I've ever heard of from any gaming community. Having special rules to nerf a single character is silly.

It is silly, but its not even half his moves. The A button gives you 14 attacks and then you have your throws + pummel, thats 19 moves.

Its strange because it would NEVER work in another competitive community.

Other fighters? They need punch, kick, wtc for multitude of commands.

Pokemon? Too much work considering the amount of pokemon.

I'm only saying this is better than completely banning MK because it adds more depth than completely removing MK.

But we have to reach the MK is banned point, first. MK's attacks are still powerful tools, he won't a crap character without his specials.

There are some characters who don't even have good specials, yet they manage. They just recover with them and thats it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And so, Grim Tuesday comes in with his tried and tested double standards argument.

If we are going to surgically nerf Meta Knight to prevent the loss of depth, why have we not done this for any banned stages? Hell, why haven't we gone the opposite direction and performed surgical buffs on Ganondorf? Etc...

 

[FRiSKruns]

Here's my 2 cents:
Personally, I do feel the bat to be ban-worthy, mainly because I feel like he's definitely being overly-centralized, he's too good in general, and I just don't feel like that's exactly healthy for the metagame.

Do I really want him banned? No, not really, but for my own person reasons, I want the challenge of having to beat this ridiculously broken character.

Sure, he has some of the best shield pressure in the game with both dair and nado.

Sure, he has one of the best recoveries in the game with 5 Jumps and 2 glides and every special being able to be used as a recovery.

Sure, he can perfectly plank for the last 2 minutes of the match using his 5 jumps 2frame uair, and his dimensional cape to avoid falling projectiles (Turnips, springs, bombs) for a free win.

Sure, his aerials all come out extraordinarily fast with little to no ending lag.

Sure, his SL and Dsmash are excellent at relieving shield pressure, as well as giving him a more or less get out of jail free card in bad situations.

Sure, he has insane amounts of priority from his nado, and sure he has above average range on all of his moves.

Even so, I still don't want him banned, mainly for the sake of the challenge of having to defeat him whilst being at such a large disadvantage, not to mention that there's actually still people out there believe it or not who like the character for the character that he is, rather than his broken moveset.


All that being said, I think I'd much rather have a limit like this one put on MK moreso than him being banned or being unrestricted entirely.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And so, Grim Tuesday comes in with his tried and tested double standards argument.

If we are going to surgically nerf Meta Knight to prevent the loss of depth, why have we not done this for any banned stages? Hell, why haven't we gone the opposite direction and performed surgical buffs on Ganondorf? Etc...

Quoting cause Jingzero's post bumped this off the front page.

 

[Ussi]

And so, Grim Tuesday comes in with his tried and tested double standards argument.

If we are going to surgically nerf Meta Knight to prevent the loss of depth, why have we not done this for any banned stages? Hell, why haven't we gone the opposite direction and performed surgical buffs on Ganondorf? Etc...

We cannot change how stages are played. We can't turn off hazards or playstyles like we can turn off specials.

If you want to buff Ganondorf, how would you exactly? It should only affect Ganon and not by nerfing everyone else or telling them to stay put or not do this.

 

[Xubble]

I like Metaknight as a character. He's a cool character in the Kirby games. You could never tell if he was doing the right thing or not, but he'd be on your side in the end (except Kirby Super Star >_>).

I like Metaknight. Hell, he was one of the first characters I picked when I started playing Brawl. But then I started getting into the competitive and such. The community HATED the bat. And I could see why. He was TOO good. And I was pretty good with MK. To me, playing MK against anybody gave me a huge advantage, and that disgusted me. I don't want the character that wins wins wins. I want the challenge of overcoming character weakness. I want to see Lucas break into mid tier. I want to see Dedede actually make a rise on the next tier list. I didn't want to be the guy that always picked the god character.

I like Metaknight. I'm sure a LOT of pro-bans like him as a Kirby character. But I don't like his l appearance in Brawl. It offends me more as a Smash player than a ban would offend me as a MK enthusiast.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I will not compromise.

 

[Xubble]

Blunt response is blunt.

Also, agreed.

 

[Matador]

But how's this ***** gonna recover now? He has one glide and ****ty air speed. He can't autosnap the ledge anymore unless he glides into it, which is extremely abusable.

Not to mention he loses an entire dimension of his onstage game...I reckon he'd drop a couple tiers from a nerf like this. I can't imagine anyone would still wanna use him, quite honestly.

I guess you could test it, but this is practically banning him, lol. He won't be the same character anymore.

Btw, stop worrying about how other gaming communities view us, lol. We can strive to be like them, but these decisions don't concern them, and they don't understand our game.

 

[The Ben]

We cannot change how stages are played. We can't turn off hazards or playstyles like we can turn off specials.

LGL is an attempt to turn off play styles.

Btw, stop worrying about how other gaming communities view us, lol. We can strive to be like them, but these decisions don't concern them, and they don't understand our game.

Ironically this is why nobody takes Smash seriously. Your huffy attitude towards other communities is childish and you could learn a lot about the failings of Smash culture from observing it as an outsider.

 

[Ussi]

LGL is an attempt to turn off play styles.

Ironically this is why nobody takes Smash seriously. Your huffy attitude towards other communities is childish and you could learn a lot about the failings of Smash culture from observing it as an outsider.

I figured no one took smash seriously because we didn't have support from nintendo, tripping, and we don't get anything done like banning MK.


Smash is a vastly different game then other fighters so the rules can be different. Heck the whole stage system is a new dimension of rules compared to other fighters.

Also, LGL.. its measurable so its not like we have someone keeping count of the LG to make sure if someone went over or not. There is practicality with LGL. Whether or not we should have them is different. How would you turn off circle camping? Air time rule is BS

But how's this ***** gonna recover now? He has one glide and ****ty air speed. He can't autosnap the ledge anymore unless he glides into it, which is extremely abusable.

Not to mention he loses an entire dimension of his onstage game...I reckon he'd drop a couple tiers from a nerf like this. I can't imagine anyone would still wanna use him, quite honestly.

I guess you could test it, but this is practically banning him, lol. He won't be the same character anymore.

Like jigglypuff but with a glide to make up for aerial momentum. MK still has his aerials to protect him too.

In my eyes its either ban him or ban his specials. Either way MK losing something(everything). But we have to reach the whole MK is banned point.

Its basically for those people who want to use MK past the ban. If anything, all the time in MK wouldn't have been wasted if there is still a special-less MK to use as a main/2ndary.

 

[Tesh]

No changes should be made or not made to our metagame for the satisfaction of other communities. Anything we do or don't do should be for us. Its absurd that some of you would actually protest things because a bunch of people that never have and never will play the game will think less of us.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

We cannot change how stages are played. We can't turn off hazards or playstyles like we can turn off specials.

I can think of lots of ways to make existing stages legit.

For example, you could make it so if a player lands on the top platform of Hanenbow too many times, they receive a disqualification.

You could force an immediate death for anyone who lands on the bottom area of Spear Pillar, etc...

You could DQ whoever has the lead if they circle Summit twice without either hitting the opponent or being hit, etc....

If you want to buff Ganondorf, how would you exactly? It should only affect Ganon and not by nerfing everyone else or telling them to stay put or not do this.

Why does it have to affect only Ganon? No matter what you do, some characters will be buffed and others will be nerfed. It isn't fair to make a distinction like that.

 

[Ussi]

I can think of lots of ways to make existing stages legit.

For example, you could make it so if a player lands on the top platform of Hanenbow too many times, they receive a disqualification.

You could force an immediate death for anyone who lands on the bottom area of Spear Pillar, etc...

You could DQ whoever has the lead if they circle Summit twice without either hitting the opponent or being hit, etc....



Why does it have to affect only Ganon? No matter what you do, some characters will be buffed and others will be nerfed. It isn't fair to make a distinction like that.

1. Immeasurable by the game

2. Spear Pillar should still be banned for the pokemon hazards such as breaking the middle of the stage, the laser, boomerang and the cutting edge attack. Others will argue that the the flipping of the stage (mirror and upside down) shouldn't also be allowed for fair gameplay.

3. Summit still is a bad stage with the fish, permanent ice, and the falling icicles.

4. By affect, i mean directly only on Ganon. No forcing other characters to turn off their specials just for 1 MU now.

 

[Tesh]

When you find options in the menu to turn off circle campings and make Ganondorf at least mid tier, then you can compare it to this. The only way to make Ganondorf good is to literally nerf every other character in the game drastically. And comparing that to nerfing only MK is as dumb as saying Diddy, Snake and Falco would be banned if MK was.

Although I'm sure its already clear to you the many major differences between the point you are trying to make and the topic of this thread.

You have no enforceable way to stop circle camping.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

1. Immeasurable by the game

Irrelevant.

2. Spear Pillar should still be banned for the pokemon hazards such as breaking the middle of the stage, the laser, boomerang and the cutting edge attack. Others will argue that the the flipping of the stage (mirror and upside down) shouldn't also be allowed for fair gameplay.

3. Summit still is a bad stage with the fish, permanent ice, and the falling icicles.

Scrub.

4. By affect, i mean directly only on Ganon. No forcing other characters to turn off their specials just for 1 MU now.

This and also what Tesh said about Ganon:

Special Brawl, Ganon gets Curry, no one else does.

My circle camping rules are just as enforceable as the no pausing rule.

 

[Tesh]

You can't use special brawl to set attributes to only 1 player/character. Why would you even suggest that?

Pausing can be turned off and even if you don't, its still less enforceable than the rule I proposed in the OP. Unless you something as enforceable, don't compare it. Try to stay on topic.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

My mistake, I thought you could do special brawl with only one character, sorry.

But anyway, any of our rules are as enforceable as your rule and mine. Unless the game keeps track of how many times someone uses specials, then there is no way to stop someone from changing the controller settings before the game and then using specials.

If you want to prove that someone used specials, you are gonna need witnesses or a replay, same thing with my Hanenbow rule.

 

[FoxFireMage]

I ROTFL'd when I read the "Imagine MK without B" This is by far the best solution that isn't a full on ban, and people that main MK because they like him should be thanking Tesh for thinking of it. In fact this has given me a side tourney idea, no specials for anyone. But if a MK ban happens all the tourneys I run will have this rule

 

[Ussi]

Some characters can't recovery without specials.. MK at least has a glide and 5 jumps to come back.

Also if someone is purposely trying to use specials as MK, they shouldn't even be playing then, they should be ejected from the venue for cheating.



If special would work on one character, i'd say lets give Ganon the bunny hood over the curry. Curry is a banned item in the ISP for a reason.

 

[popsofctown]

Banning specials isn't practical, it's not smart to create easily done and also accidental cheating.

Plus, the character would be so painful to play without specials it's just better for him not to be in the game than for a Falco player to come up against ICs and decide he's gotta at least try to down air camp for 7 minutes straight.

 

[SFA Smiley]

I lol'd

10chars

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Also if someone is purposely trying to use specials as MK, they shouldn't even be playing then, they should be ejected from the venue for cheating.

Well... duh...

That has nothing to do with what I was saying.

 

[Ussi]

Its easy to enforce special-less MK through control schemes. If someone wants to check they can check the tag the MK user was using to see if there was a special command still available.

 

[Tesh]

My mistake, I thought you could do special brawl with only one character, sorry.

But anyway, any of our rules are as enforceable as your rule and mine. Unless the game keeps track of how many times someone uses specials, then there is no way to stop someone from changing the controller settings before the game and then using specials.

If you want to prove that someone used specials, you are gonna need witnesses or a replay, same thing with my Hanenbow rule.

Ever heard of people changing the damage ratio to 2.0 before a tournament match to cheat? Or even 1.1? Or turning items on before switching to DDD? Its EASILY enforceable. As a tournament player you should know the rules as they apply to you AND your opponent. Just like you ask your opponent for his ban after he wins a match, you should know he has to change his controls to use MK.

If he uses a special during a match, just call a ref over and prove it (its as simple as pressing the button and seeing what happens. Even if you wait until the end of a match to use a special (quick shuttle loop kill) and NO ONE IS WATCHING AT ALL, you can't get passed the results screen without your opponent also pressing a button. When there is no way to get away with it, that is enforceability. Having the input on your controller isn't legal, and unless you find some secret attack+shield+jump=special method to create the input, its easy to prove you cheated. Its not like EDC or Scrooging where it can't be proven after the event.

@ Ussi, true, Ganondorf has a universal jablock infinite with curry. All he has to do is land an aerial Side B and roll back and forth around his opponent until 130 and then dash attack. Curry is suuuper broken.

 

[FoxFireMage]

Well... duh...

That has nothing to do with what I was saying.

Actually it does, you said it wasn't enforceable. It is, MK uses a special they lose the match. MK users should confirm their controls

 

[Ussi]

Its as enforceable as saying you pause you lose a stock/game.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Its easy to enforce special-less MK through control schemes. If someone wants to check they can check the tag the MK user was using to see if there was a special command still available.

Ever heard of people changing the damage ratio to 2.0 before a tournament match to cheat? Or even 1.1? Or turning items on before switching to DDD? Its EASILY enforceable. As a tournament player you should know the rules as they apply to you AND your opponent. Just like you ask your opponent for his ban after he wins a match, you should know he has to change his controls to use MK.

If he uses a special during a match, just call a ref over and prove it (its as simple as pressing the button and seeing what happens. Even if you wait until the end of a match to use a special (quick shuttle loop kill) and NO ONE IS WATCHING AT ALL, you can't get passed the results screen without your opponent also pressing a button. When there is no way to get away with it, that is enforceability. Having the input on your controller isn't legal, and unless you find some secret attack+shield+jump=special method to create the input, its easy to prove you cheated. Its not like EDC or Scrooging where it can't be proven after the event.

Most of those arguments apply to my Hanenbow rule as well to the point where they could be considered effectively as enforceable as each other.

Thanks for typing that up, saves me the trouble.

Actually it does, you said it wasn't enforceable. It is, MK uses a special they lose the match. MK users should confirm their controls

I never said it wasn't enforceable.

 

[Tesh]

For example, you could make it so if a player lands on the top platform of Hanenbow too many times, they receive a disqualification.

Sorry Grim, still wrong. If I land on the top platform of Hanenbow 10 times, you can't call a ref over and prove it. If I use tornado or shuttle loop, you CAN call a ref over and prove it. Here is how it works.

Metaknight Player :roflcopter your shield, gimped at 40 wahahahaha.
UmadCrybaby55: Hey not fair, I'm calling a ref! HEY MLGMASTER26 THIS GUY IS USING ILLEGAL MOVES!!
*Metaknight player hands his controller to the ref*
*Ref presses each button and proves specials to be either on or off*
*The offending player loses the match*

Calling a ref over for circle camping won't determine whether or not I was circle camping. Whats the ref gonna do? Look into my soul?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I dunno, how is the ref going to determine if you did ANY illegal maneuver?

CoolBro57: *Punches opponent in the face*
UmadCryBaby55: Hey not fair, I'm calling a ref! HEY MLGMASTER26 THIS GUY PUNCHED ME!!

-Nothing happens-

 

[ElDominio]

Sorry Grim, still wrong. If I land on the top platform of Hanenbow 10 times, you can't call a ref over and prove it. If I use tornado or shuttle loop, you CAN call a ref over and prove it. Here is how it works.

Metaknight Player :roflcopter your shield, gimped at 40 wahahahaha.
UmadCrybaby55: Hey not fair, I'm calling a ref! HEY MLGMASTER26 THIS GUY IS USING ILLEGAL MOVES!!
*Metaknight player hands his controller to the ref*
*Ref presses each button and proves specials to be either on or off*
*The offending player loses the match*

Calling a ref over for circle camping won't determine whether or not I was circle camping. Whats the ref gonna do? Look into my soul?

QFT

I'm sorry Grim, but the game doesn't say "Player X landed on thhe top platform 16 times"

The game does, however, allow you to turn off buttons.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Read the post before yours, Dominio.