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A Bill by any other name would smell as sweet - Nov 14/15 - Melee, Brawl, Brawl+

rPSIvysaur

rPSIvysaur

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If I'm allowed to come I might be able to bring a set-up... going to have to see if I can though

Also, since DDD's standing infinite is gone, how do you feel about Marth's IGR on Lucas and Ness?
 
Foxy

Foxy

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Keith 4'rd said:
We should just have a all metaknight tourney, then it will be perfectly fair, ima host one in december

Edit: if we ban metaknight lets ban fox from melee, that little **** head is metaknight in mammal form
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can we just ban all top tiers? =\

please no more fox/falco/sheik/marth

i'm okay with falcon being the best choice.

SO OKAY
 
lord karn

lord karn

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MK can be considered different from all of the other good characters. There is an attribute that MK has that no other good character has; specifically, "being the sole character that has no bad matchups." No one else has this quality, and when a character exists with said quality, I believe that the game as a whole is made significantly less deep.

As for saying that we have no tangible warrant for banning MK, any tangible action should be based in proper theory. In this case, both Bill and I believe that the proper theory suggests that MK should be banned. In my case, the proper theory that leads to such a conclusion is in my previous paragraph.

However, I would agree that having MK banned will make this tournament not be able to count much in the power rankings. For instance, if I face Bill in this tournament and he happens to beat me, that result doesn't really say anything about which person places better in the tournament scene which is comprised almost entirely of MK-allowed tournies (Bill and I both think that I will always beat him with MK). Thus, the only tournament matches that will yield any usable data for power rankings are ones where neither player conceivably would go MK and do better. I think this is probably one of the best arguments against banning MK at this Billfest, but as I've said many times before, I don't care about power rankings. Thus, this argument does not really matter to me.

The other argument that is tied in with this is one of experience vs oos players. My counter to this argument is simply: with the level of play that our MKs play on, I think that the biggest thing holding most players (in NC) back in this matchup is not experience but simply lack of understanding of the matchup. I think most of you would get way better at this matchup by either researching it or going into training mode and figuring out what options both characters have than by actually playing stingers or flamingo in tourney.

@Phil: We haven't discussed it yet.
 
onlymaskde

onlymaskde

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Melee on Sunday? Lol, I'm not coming. But I guess it makes sense since this date is the same as the weekend of RoM2.
 
stingers

stingers

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I think most of you would get way better at this matchup by either researching it or going into training mode and figuring out what options both characters have than by actually playing stingers or flamingo in tourney.
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karn don't worry i'll prove you wrong there :chuckle:
 
lord karn

lord karn

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Nah, we switched it back a week so it won't conflict with ROM2. ROM is on the 21st right?

I think Marth's infinite on Ness and Lucas is banned as well, but I'll let Bill clarify.
 
stingers

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crap i just realized...my little brothers birthday is november 14th...lol

nevermind again...can't make this.

matchup experience helps loads. i can tell you i've never gone into training mode to figure out a matchup...
 
lord karn

lord karn

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stingers135 said:
crap i just realized...my little brothers birthday is november 14th...lol

nevermind again...can't make this.

matchup experience helps loads. i can tell you i've never gone into training mode to figure out a matchup...
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But you do read up a lot about matchups, right?

Not training mode by yourself, but with someone that can replicate different situations so you can figure out exactly what should be done in different scenarios. Watching videos analytically can serve this purpose as well but does not build muscle memory. This method of training helps me far more than actually playing matches.

I don't think it's a permanent switch. The only reason we did it this way is because there has been such an influx of Melee tournaments recently. Also, we thought we would get a bigger turnout for B+ (which has had fewer tournaments recently) if we had it on the same day as brawl.
 
stingers

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actually i don't read about that many matchups...i think ROB/oli and mk/marth are the only 2 i've really looked into a lot...i just play lots of people on wifi >.> but I see your point because most people don't play wifi so they dont have the ability to play against lots of different characters...or wifi just doesnt help them much

the biggest thing is practice in any case...
 
Dr Peepee

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Keith 4'rd said:
We should just have a all metaknight tourney, then it will be perfectly fair, ima host one in december

Edit: if we ban metaknight lets ban fox from melee, that little **** head is metaknight in mammal form
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Funniest post in the thread.



Stongers: I'm goin to a tournament if anything this weekend.


Edit: Mask PLEASE go! The date got fixed.
 
stingers

stingers

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mask, you should make them change it for you...to the week before this...force them to change it...you deserve it man
 
KillerSOS

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lord karn said:
As for the point about banning MK serving only to rob a few players of money. Based on the criteria for banning MK, the point would be that those players who would place in the money with MK were potentially not as good as the players they beat, because their character is OP. As it is, this ban does obviously hurt them more than other players, but you could argue that all of the other non-MK-banned tournies have benefited them unfairly as well. MK is not dominant only on the top level of play. Why should Flamingo (just a hypothetical) beat someone on a similar skill level all the time because he plays MK, even if neither of said players ends up placing in the money?

My only reason for wanting MK banned on a more universal level is because I think the ban is something that will make the game a deeper game. I think MK does have some even match-ups, IE Snake and even Wario and Diddy are at least pretty close to even. However, he's the only character in the game that has no bad match-ups, and such I think he makes the metagame in Brawl extremely dull. Don't say Fox fits the same category as a counter argument, because Sheik and Falco also arguably fit the same bill, thus making a deeper top level metagame.

Everyone who has been saying that the MK ban won't really affect very much is absolutely right. It might save a couple people from getting gayed by MK, but overall it probably won't have too great an affect. However, hosting an MK-banned tourney of a pretty decent size will have a positive affect on the whole MK-ban movement, which could potentially affect tournies where MK would make a significant difference. Just look at how much more MK-ban talk has been floating around since HOBO banned him. Seems like a lot more TOs now are seriously considering banning him.

From a personal standpoint I don't really care if MK is banned. I beat four people in a row who counterpicked MK on me. I'd rather fight MK than a lot of other characters, and I even use MK in certain matchups. However, I don't really think my ability to play MK will make me lose or win against any different people than I currently do. If anything it will make certain people easier to beat.
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This is wrong. If Flamingo mained someone else he would still be good. Do you REALLY think hes going to pick up a new toon just because you guys dont like MK??? Your robbing him of his money fair and simple.
 
stingers

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alright...you guys can get top 3 in dubs...but...you'll never win

i'll bust out my snake if worse comes to worst
 
lord karn

lord karn

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KillerSOS said:
This is wrong. If Flamingo mained someone else he would still be good. Do you REALLY think hes going to pick up a new toon just because you guys dont like MK??? Your robbing him of his money fair and simple.
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Mind pointing out how I'm wrong? Flamingo would definitely still be good, but he probably would be somewhat worse. He'd lose in different matchups.

You guys probably won't place as high without MK. That's unfortunate for you. As I said earlier, perhaps you placed as well as you did previously because of MK. Personally, I don't mind fighting against MK, but playing MK does give an advantage. It seems really hard to deny that to me.
 
Foxy

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lord karn said:
Mind pointing out how I'm wrong? Flamingo would definitely still be good, but he probably would be somewhat worse. He'd lose in different matchups.

You guys probably won't place as high without MK. That's unfortunate for you. As I said earlier, perhaps you placed as well as you did previously because of MK. Personally, I don't mind fighting against MK, but playing MK does give an advantage. It seems really hard to deny that to me.
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The problem is that after MK, there are other characters that give an advantage.

Because they're better characters.

That's why there are tier lists. Because all characters are not identical.

I have an advantage when I pick Fox in Melee over when I play Captain Falcon. So? He's a better character.
 
stingers

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peepee you have no chance against such prestigious teams like karn/bill and duo/mitsu without my help

have fun getting 2nd in brawl doubles with some random (nobody will quit their team to team with you, get real)
 
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