A Bill by any other name would smell as sweet - Nov 14/15 - Melee, Brawl, Brawl+

[stingers]

great come over next weekend pp

you can skip duke for this dawg

i agree with fiz, we should copy midwest circuit stage list for this

 

[TheLastCacely]

the Ban Isn't A Good Idea At All.

I've Always Been A Strong Supporter Of The Mk-ban Philosophy, Because Attribute-wise He Is Ban-worthy. However, I Still Think This Is A Bit Ridiculous.

Why? Banning Mk Will Not Affect This Tournament At All.

In Some Regions With Incredible Mk Players Who Dominate, Bans Are A Bit More Important, But Nobody Plays Mk At A Top Level In Nc And Everyone Good Has Posted Saying "i Don't Need Mk". As Omni Pointed Out Already, Mk Barely Affected The Last Billfest, With The Only Exception Being Flamingo, And One Player Placing High Doesn't Mean That A Ban In Any Way Will Make The Competition And Results More Valid Based On Player Skill.

Now, I Normally Wouldn't Have A Problem With The To's Just Maturely Saying "this Is Our Tournament, We Have Agreed On These Rules, And You Can Come And Play If You Want To." However... These Kinds Of Resolutions Are Inappropriate In A Situation With This Much Money On The Line. Obviously We Never Talk Too Seriously About The Cash In Smash, But With A Really Large Brawl Tournament Like A Billfest, The Rule Changes Nothing About The Tournament Except Guarantees The Few Mk Players We Have In Nc That They Will Make No Money At All.

And Of Course, Smash Isn't A Job, And Nobody Is Counting On The Money, But In The End You Must Face The Fact That The Rule, Theoretically Justifiable, In Reality Will Only Have One Function: Potentially Rob Two Or Three Players (at Most) Of A Chance At Money.

As A Smash Player, You Can Look At Things Theoretically And Like Me Support The Mk Ban Based On His Attributes.

But When It Comes To Being A To, It Becomes Much More Important To Make Decisions Not Based On Theoretical Practice, But Only On What Definitive And Tangible Influences The Rule Or Decision Will Have On The Tournament Or Community. And In This Case, The Rule Is Not Making The Competition More Fair Than It Was, It Is Not Guaranteeing Players A Better Experience, And It Is Not Going To Affect Results Beyond 1 Or 2 Players; It Is Taking Money From A Few Players, It Is Placing An Unnecessary And Arbitrary Limitation On A Tournament Series That Has So Far Had No Trouble With Mk, And It Is Possibly Going To Save Some Mains With Terrible Matchups With Mk From A Loss They Could Possibly Experience By Meeting Up With A Gay Mk (really Not Meaning Anything Personal On This One, It Goes For Other Olimars Like Killer Or Some Other Characters).

Anyways, That's My Thoughts, I'm Not Going To Make Any Personal Jabs And I Don't Think There's Any Point For That Sort Of Argument, I Just Like Talking Facts.

Foxy! Foxy! He Our Man! If He Cant Do It, Nobody Can!!!

 

[theAPExp]

stingers sandbagged our "legit" melee match

 

[Dr Peepee]

great come over next weekend pp

you can skip duke for this dawg

i agree with fiz, we should copy midwest circuit stage list for this

Lol quit being difficult.

Seriouslies at this tournament?

 

[TheLastCacely]

mk ban sucks but I dont care i'm winning melee singles anyway

 

[stingers]

ape you sandbagged too

pp i'm serious i wont have time for friendlies with you we're gonna be too busy

 

[NC-Echo]

I'm done arguing Alex can take over if he wants when he gets back.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@ Stongers: What will you be doing then?

 

[stingers]

you're gonna be playing melee 99% of the time i'm gonna be coaching bill through his tourney matches...

 

[Dr Peepee]

Lol whatever Stongers.

We'll make time.

 

[stingers]

seriously dude we wont have time >.>

but whatever :3

 

[theAPExp]

i didn't sandbag the whole match
i had to catch up that one stock

 

[Dr Peepee]

Just don't enter B+, like me Stongers.

Loads of time.

 

[Shady Penguin]

Oh boy, Brawl is on Saturday this time. Count on me being here for Saturday again (maybe Sunday if I'm fortunate enough).

Duo, do you want to team for Brawl at this since I wasn't there last time?

 

[stingers]

peepee...come over this weekend :/

 

[Foxy]

I'm done arguing Alex can take over if he wants when he gets back.

No problem, bro.

 

[NC-Echo]

i'm gonna be coaching bill through his tourney matches...

huh?

10 chars

 

[mr.fizwidget]

i'm curious as to why he's banned in doubles where he isn't dominant...

id like an answer to this as well...

 

[stingers]

nothing bill...lol

 

[NC-Echo]

id like an answer to this as well...

This is beside the point. He is being banned for his attributes.

 

[mr.fizwidget]

his attributes are not broken in doubles...

 

[stingers]

just...give...up

he...wont...budge

and he doesn't have to...its his tournament.

most of us disagree with it, whatever. we're not forced to come...

 

[theAPExp]

stingers knows whats what

 

[lord karn]

As for the point about banning MK serving only to rob a few players of money. Based on the criteria for banning MK, the point would be that those players who would place in the money with MK were potentially not as good as the players they beat, because their character is OP. As it is, this ban does obviously hurt them more than other players, but you could argue that all of the other non-MK-banned tournies have benefited them unfairly as well. MK is not dominant only on the top level of play. Why should Flamingo (just a hypothetical) beat someone on a similar skill level all the time because he plays MK, even if neither of said players ends up placing in the money?

My only reason for wanting MK banned on a more universal level is because I think the ban is something that will make the game a deeper game. I think MK does have some even match-ups, IE Snake and even Wario and Diddy are at least pretty close to even. However, he's the only character in the game that has no bad match-ups, and such I think he makes the metagame in Brawl extremely dull. Don't say Fox fits the same category as a counter argument, because Sheik and Falco also arguably fit the same bill, thus making a deeper top level metagame.

Everyone who has been saying that the MK ban won't really affect very much is absolutely right. It might save a couple people from getting gayed by MK, but overall it probably won't have too great an affect. However, hosting an MK-banned tourney of a pretty decent size will have a positive affect on the whole MK-ban movement, which could potentially affect tournies where MK would make a significant difference. Just look at how much more MK-ban talk has been floating around since HOBO banned him. Seems like a lot more TOs now are seriously considering banning him.

From a personal standpoint I don't really care if MK is banned. I beat four people in a row who counterpicked MK on me. I'd rather fight MK than a lot of other characters, and I even use MK in certain matchups. However, I don't really think my ability to play MK will make me lose or win against any different people than I currently do. If anything it will make certain people easier to beat.

 

[stingers]

Based on the criteria for banning MK, the point would be that those players who would place in the money with MK were potentially not as good as the players they beat, because their character is OP.

Or, if you thought about it, it would be because they practice that character more then any other of their characters by a large enough margin that they can call him their main.

 

[Foxy]

just...give...up

he...wont...budge

and he doesn't have to...its his tournament.

most of us disagree with it, whatever. we're not forced to come...

That's like saying that when black people weren't segregated and not allowed in a lot of locations, they should understand it's an official decision and that they aren't forced to go to said places; on top of that, it's saying that they shouldn't protest it or try to have it changed.

YES, I know that's a very emphasized metaphor but you get what I mean.

Just because we're not "forced to come" doesn't mean it's right. It's still almost banning just a few particular players from entering the tournament, regardless of "MK's attributes".

 

[lord karn]

Well if you assume that MK is way better than all of the other characters said player could beat other people who put just as much practice into their character. I know you don't believe that MK is OP. Both Bill and I do, however.

 

[TheLastCacely]

Oh boy, Brawl is on Saturday this time. Count on me being here for Saturday again (maybe Sunday if I'm fortunate enough).

Duo, do you want to team for Brawl at this since I wasn't there last time?

eeehhhemmm

 

[mr.fizwidget]

so why is he banned in doubles?

 

[TheLastCacely]

that's Like Saying That When Black People Weren't Segregated And Not Allowed In A Lot Of Locations, They Should Understand It's An Official Decision And That They Aren't Forced To Go To Said Places; On Top Of That, It's Saying That They Shouldn't Protest It Or Try To Have It Changed.

Yes, I Know That's A Very Emphasized Metaphor But You Get What I Mean.

Just Because We're Not "forced To Come" Doesn't Mean It's Right. It's Still Almost Banning Just A Few Particular Players From Entering The Tournament, Regardless Of "mk's Attributes".

Go Foxy Go! Hes On A Roll Tonight Ladies And Gentlemen

 

[stingers]

Well if you assume that MK is way better than all of the other characters said player could beat other people who put just as much practice into their character.

What is this? Do all matchups have to be perfectly fair and equal now? Is this the Affirmative Action of the Brawl World? "Sorry MK mains, you've been winning too many tournaments lately so we're giving the Link mains a chance now...I hope you understand."

I have a serious problem with your logic here.

 

[Foxy]

As for the point about banning MK serving only to rob a few players of money. Based on the criteria for banning MK, the point would be that those players who would place in the money with MK were potentially not as good as the players they beat, because their character is OP. As it is, this ban does obviously hurt them more than other players, but you could argue that all of the other non-MK-banned tournies have benefited them unfairly as well. MK is not dominant only on the top level of play. Why should Flamingo (just a hypothetical) beat someone on a similar skill level all the time because he plays MK, even if neither of said players ends up placing in the money?

This is all true and a good counter, but ultimately, the point is that there is nothing stopping other players from learning to play MK as well. Clearly, those who do main him and have ever done well (very few people in NC) have put a lot of time and effort into learning and practicing the character to get to that point. It is possible and probably true that it is still easier to win with MK given that effort, but it's impossible to measure and is something too vague. You can't ban some players' mains because the character is better than others or has good matchups. There are some other bad matchups, and those aren't banned.

My only reason for wanting MK banned on a more universal level is because I think the ban is something that will make the game a deeper game. I think MK does have some even match-ups, IE Snake and even Wario and Diddy are at least pretty close to even. However, he's the only character in the game that has no bad match-ups, and such I think he makes the metagame in Brawl extremely dull. Don't say Fox fits the same category as a counter argument, because Sheik and Falco also arguably fit the same bill, thus making a deeper top level metagame.

Everyone who has been saying that the MK ban won't really affect very much is absolutely right. It might save a couple people from getting gayed by MK, but overall it probably won't have too great an affect. However, hosting an MK-banned tourney of a pretty decent size will have a positive affect on the whole MK-ban movement, which could potentially affect tournies where MK would make a significant difference. Just look at how much more MK-ban talk has been floating around since HOBO banned him. Seems like a lot more TOs now are seriously considering banning him.

From a personal standpoint I don't really care if MK is banned. I beat four people in a row who counterpicked MK on me. I'd rather fight MK than a lot of other characters, and I even use MK in certain matchups. However, I don't really think my ability to play MK will make me lose or win against any different people than I currently do. If anything it will make certain people easier to beat.

I agree that making a large tournament MK-banned does support the movement, and as a long-term progression banning MK certainly is beneficial and revitalizing to the metagame.

The real issue is that in order to achieve those possibly long-term effects, there are the nasty short-term or immediate effects of doing nothing but screwing a few players who deserve to play their main and have a shot at money in a tournament as much as anyone else.

It would be pretty unfortunate if that had to happen in order to simply help pack together the snowballing of the MK-ban.

The truth is that we could simply say that this tournament had MK-banned in this thread and a results thread with no characters or no MK listed, but in reality allow him to be played (by Gentlemen's Rule or by TO rules), and it would have the same effect on the ban movement to all of the other regions that are moving in the direction of support.

And sadly, one of the large reasons that HOBO has banned MK is because Xyr0 is an absolute idiot. It was also basically robbing M2K, who would have otherwise came and won, and he certainly deserves it based on his skill and not his character.

 

[Shady Penguin]

eeehhhemmm

Well, I already said I was going to team with Duo at least once.

Terrorist and a Thief will definitely be on for next time though.

 

[NC-Echo]

Obviously several of us disagree about the level of OP'ness of MK. However it doesn't really matter, we believe a ban is warranted and so it will happen. I believe there is little to discuss. Comparing this to segregation is completely ludicrous and not only a bad metaphor but an offensive one.

 

[stingers]

shady stop failing...team with me

 

[lord karn]

The only problem with having an actual MK tournament and saying he was banned is that there will almost certainly be some people who will spill the beans, and that would be deleterious to the MK-ban movement overall if such a thing were to happen.

Yeah, everyone can play MK in a non-banned environment, and many do, but that does not make him a fair character. I guess the most obvious counter-argument is some people either don't like playing as MK or simply don't have a natural penchant for his style. However, I don't think that argument holds up at top level play, because good players shouldn't be limited by such things.

However, if you are supporting an MK-tournament and supporting the idea that everyone has the opportunity to play MK to even the playing field, you are supporting a tournament where everyone is MK, or perhaps a few Snakes in there. I personally think such a thing is stupid.

 

[mr.fizwidget]

a tournament where everyone is MK, or perhaps a few Snakes in there. I personally think such a thing is stupid.

not true in doubles...

 

[stingers]

definitely not true in doubles...even xyro admits it...

 

[Foxy]

The only problem with having an actual MK tournament and saying he was banned is that there will almost certainly be some people who will spill the beans, and that would be deleterious to the MK-ban movement overall if such a thing were to happen.

Yeah, everyone can play MK in a non-banned environment, and many do, but that does not make him a fair character. I guess the most obvious counter-argument is some people either don't like playing as MK or simply don't have a natural penchant for his style. However, I don't think that argument holds up at top level play, because good players shouldn't be limited by such things.

However, if you are supporting an MK-tournament and supporting the idea that everyone has the opportunity to play MK to even the playing field, you are supporting a tournament where everyone is MK, or perhaps a few Snakes in there. I personally think such a thing is stupid.

The problem is that there is a best character in any competitive game, and you can't simply ban it because essentially any tournament is boiled down to "how skilled is this player/how much effort have they put into the game" versus "are they using the best/a better character."

THAT issue has absolutely nothing to do with MK in particular, and any time any player wins tier must be taken into account. I'm sure there are a lot of Melee players who support mid/low-tier mains or even just made a decision to main a less-than-best character, who could have made money or won tournament sets with similarly- or less-skilled players had they chosen a better character.

So ban all of the good characters?

MK is an unfair character. Again, theoretically, we should ban him. But he simply doesn't dominate in NC, or anywhere close to it. He has nearly zero effect on these results. The proof is in the pudding, at least for our region.

Obviously several of us disagree about the level of OP'ness of MK. However it doesn't really matter, we believe a ban is warranted and so it will happen. I believe there is little to discuss. Comparing this to segregation is completely ludicrous and not only a bad metaphor but an offensive one.

It's not ludicrous, it's just excessive. And it's not offensive in the least - just lay down the law with the ban and quit while you're ahead.

You have every right to make the decision as the TO's.

Also, as I've stated a few times, I firmly believe that MK is completely overpowered and has bannable attributes, but it is all within the theory of the game, and no matter how much you stress that he is bannable, you still have absolutely zero tangible warrant, and there's nothing you can say in opposition to that.

He's bannable but all this ban will do is screw over a few players, detract from the validity of the competition, and support the national ban movement, which would happen even if he wasn't actually banned and we simply said so in all related threads.

Anyways, no need to respond to this, if you guys are set on the decision then I'll have to make my own peace, which I will.

 

[TheLastCacely]

We should just have a all metaknight tourney, then it will be perfectly fair, ima host one in december

Edit: if we ban metaknight lets ban fox from melee, that little **** head is metaknight in mammal form