#HBC | Gorf
toastin walrus since 4/20 maaaan
And ultimately, if you don't like a stage, ban it in your set.
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9 Stage Starter System: a way to prevent stagnancy in brawl
- Thread starter KoRoBeNiKi
- Start date
I don't have enough bans to cover all the awful stages in many liberal stagelists.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Hmm, now tell me, why do any of these constitute something bannable? In fact, PS2 is arguably a more fair stage than PS1.
Define "awful".
#HBC | Gorf
toastin walrus since 4/20 maaaan
Air gives strong Uairs a huge advantage, and it gives slow fast fallers a huge disadvantage.
Oh, and I forgot about the little mountain on the ground stage.. It gives CGers huge help. No need to dig too deep in that argument.
Treadmills can help Falco CG to spike for a fast kill.
Ice can f up pivot grabs badly.
Is that good enough for you?
Oh, and I forgot about the little mountain on the ground stage.. It gives CGers huge help. No need to dig too deep in that argument.
Treadmills can help Falco CG to spike for a fast kill.
Ice can f up pivot grabs badly.
Is that good enough for you?
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
Thio, that's not why the 9-starter list is used. It's not to balance out Diddy and friends. As T-Block and I have said many times in the past, that is a SYMPTOM of the problem, not the problem itself.
The PROBLEM is that 5 starters is fundamentally skewed towards ground characters. As a result (symptom), Diddy and friends do better.
Also, I hosted a biweekly last night with 9 starters. Frequently saw Frigate Orpheon for Game 1.
So?
So? Stay on the left.
So?
So?
NO.
The PROBLEM is that 5 starters is fundamentally skewed towards ground characters. As a result (symptom), Diddy and friends do better.
Also, I hosted a biweekly last night with 9 starters. Frequently saw Frigate Orpheon for Game 1.
As for you.... response in order.
So?
So? Stay on the left.
So?
So?
NO.
Actually really fast Upb's OOS will hit him even on PS. If you are facing the other direction and get it, you can easily grab or jab/fast attack.
The more you know
5 stages are skewed towards Diddy and friends, 9 stages is skewed towards MK and friends. Which one do you want? You can't remove both.
The more you know
5 stages are skewed towards Diddy and friends, 9 stages is skewed towards MK and friends. Which one do you want? You can't remove both.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
And? Not a ban criteria. If this was the whole stage, it could be looked into due to polarization, but as is, it's one part of the stage you can avoid. I got into an argument about a peach main who was scared ****less of what snake could do to her there, and I reminded her that between her floats, her double jump, and her parasol, she could probably stay out of snake's reach for most of the transformation's duration.
Rock and Fire on PS1.
Falco can almost always CG->spike onstage on smaller stages. And one character is not a ban criteria.
It enhances the chances of a conditional random event in the game during one small portion of the stage. Are you even thinking about what you're arguing?
Same tired arguments, same tired answers.
...the less we care?
Like FD? You can't ban every stage "aerial characters" dominate on simply because they're good almost everywhere. See my "ICs on FD vs. MK on Brinstar" argument. If you were to ban every stage aerial character dominate heavily on, you'd have to get rid of every stage that limited, grounded characters do decently on (FD, Smashville, BF, etc.), leaving only middle-ground stages like CS, halberd, Frigate, and Delfino.
I'm trying...
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
THIS.
Again, to skew it as hard in MK's favor as the 3-starter list skews it in the favor of Diddy, Falco, and the ICs, (or, to make this less character-specific, to skew it as hard in aerial characters' favor as the 3-starter list skews it in the favor of ground characters,) you'd have to make the list something like this:
-Brinstar
-Norfair
-RC
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
T-block
B2B TST
EDIT: I missed the second page lol... lemme make this more readable.
SCN, you missed the sarcasm ._. Viewing YI's Support Ghosts as something that just "delays the inevitable" is also a terrible way to look at it.
Diddy is not broken on Pictochat, although I'd give it a close second... I'm fairly convinced FD is still a better stage (but you don't even think FD is good for Diddy anyways lol). Pictochat is larger which makes it harder to control. Odds are, of the drawings that would be considered significant (Arrows, Plant, Cart, Spikes for the KO; Missiles for the damage), two or three will show up in a 5-minute match. You have two or three chances to take advantage of the stage, and in order for your opponent to be able to claim the stage screwed him over, he has to be at KO percent (which is as high as like...150%), and has to be caught in the middle of Diddy's combo when it's being drawn. I've played Diddy on Pictochat a lot - it doesn't happen that often.
9+ starters might be "skewed" towards MK+friends in a sense. But that's the way it should be, because they are more versatile (again, assuming you agree with this line of thought). So it's not really "skewed" so much as... natural.
I tried to do that DMG... FD/SV/PS1/BF/CS/Lylat/PS2/Frigate/RC
SCN, you missed the sarcasm ._. Viewing YI's Support Ghosts as something that just "delays the inevitable" is also a terrible way to look at it.
Diddy is not broken on Pictochat, although I'd give it a close second... I'm fairly convinced FD is still a better stage (but you don't even think FD is good for Diddy anyways lol). Pictochat is larger which makes it harder to control. Odds are, of the drawings that would be considered significant (Arrows, Plant, Cart, Spikes for the KO; Missiles for the damage), two or three will show up in a 5-minute match. You have two or three chances to take advantage of the stage, and in order for your opponent to be able to claim the stage screwed him over, he has to be at KO percent (which is as high as like...150%), and has to be caught in the middle of Diddy's combo when it's being drawn. I've played Diddy on Pictochat a lot - it doesn't happen that often.
9+ starters might be "skewed" towards MK+friends in a sense. But that's the way it should be, because they are more versatile (again, assuming you agree with this line of thought). So it's not really "skewed" so much as... natural.
I tried to do that DMG... FD/SV/PS1/BF/CS/Lylat/PS2/Frigate/RC
chaosmaster1991
Smash Apprentice
Why not dividing stages based on how heavy they favour grounded and respectively aerial characters, then choose one stage from each section and horray, a balanced list... actually divding might not work, so maybe rather ordering... unless you already did that and I didn't notice, in that case, ignore this...
When did I ever say Diddy was BAD on FD? I just think he has better options based on how projectiles function, and how banana locks across stages function.
Anyways, I don't think any character except ICs truly loses any versatility on any of the usual expanded stagelist, except against MK. A 9-stage starter list really only helps MK. Not air character in general - Just MK. There aren't any characters who can abuse Halberd, Delfino, etc by sharking to eliminate ground control like he can.
EDIT: DMG that Heimerdinger tag better not mean you play him in LoL, because if so I HAVE LOST ALL RESPECT FOR YOU FOREVER.
Thio I mained him back when he sucked. It's not my fault that the metagame became poking/harassment and initiating properly became hard. He's not changed much, everyone else around him just got worse and worse lol. Besides his half damage to turrets nerf.
If it makes you happy, he's usually Auto ban in most serious ranked games. So I have to play other characters.
If it makes you happy, he's usually Auto ban in most serious ranked games. So I have to play other characters.
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
The only one of those stages I would consider arguable bannable would be Mansion, but even then, there's nothing actually wrong with it.
You should probably read my conversation with ADHD in the stage legality discussion topic. The strength of the stages doesn't matter so much as whether or not they force a strike. Obviously they can't ALL be strong, since you need a middle ground, but there is literally no fundamental difference between
FD, BF, SV, YI, Lylat, PS1, Frigate, Halberd, Castle Siege
and
FD, BF, SV, YI, Lylat, PS1, Norfair, Halberd, Castle Siege.
Both stages force a strike, and the end result is the same.
Shaco isn't OP really, it's that people don't want to have to deal with him IMO. Especially in Solo Queue, you do not want to take the chance of getting an unaware/not so good team that doesn't have the tank getting Oracles or being dedicated to stopping his jungling.
He's still really good, but he's no Heimer/Shen/Soraka/auto ban characters.
Raizek, if it doesn't matter what stages you add in cause the stages are auto strike, then why not just force Game 1 to always be on a certain stage? YI for example. If it doesn't matter with a list like RC, Norfair, Delfino, Japes, etc, then just find the overall most neutral stage across the entire spectrum and make that the only stage you can play on Game 1.
He's still really good, but he's no Heimer/Shen/Soraka/auto ban characters.
Raizek, if it doesn't matter what stages you add in cause the stages are auto strike, then why not just force Game 1 to always be on a certain stage? YI for example. If it doesn't matter with a list like RC, Norfair, Delfino, Japes, etc, then just find the overall most neutral stage across the entire spectrum and make that the only stage you can play on Game 1.
0_0
WHAT
Shaco at level 13 can solo Baron with lifesteal and smite. He can control the entire map with FEAR WARDS - FEAR WARDS EVERYWHERE. He can escape through walls with a blink-stealth, he can kills towers and gank really well with his alt, he can snare.
He's as banworthy as those character rofl
He's top or near the top of tier 2. The ones I listed are Tier 1. IMO at least. He was worse with the Aura stacking abuse you could get on him. Double the gold worth on already good items like Starks and GA/Aegis.
I'll put it this way: He's banworthy with some consideration. Heimer, Soraka, Shen, etc are auto ban don't even have to think about your team comp ban worthy (besides considering who your teams first picks could be). Shaco is ban worthy, but at a lower priority than them I think. A lot can change depending on what champs are free for the week. I know when Taric was free last week or the one before, people banned him a lot over other support that was not free. There's just a lot to consider.
Lol I'll end it at that cause this is supposed to be about stages not LoL.
I'll put it this way: He's banworthy with some consideration. Heimer, Soraka, Shen, etc are auto ban don't even have to think about your team comp ban worthy (besides considering who your teams first picks could be). Shaco is ban worthy, but at a lower priority than them I think. A lot can change depending on what champs are free for the week. I know when Taric was free last week or the one before, people banned him a lot over other support that was not free. There's just a lot to consider.
Lol I'll end it at that cause this is supposed to be about stages not LoL.
ADHD
Smash Hero
And I'm saying they should, because a MIDDLE ground is a stage where both characters deserve an even chance! If you truly cared about "fairness" you wouldn't be rewarding aerial characters just because they are versatile. You'd find an actual stagelist that isn't obscure or enables bull****. Diddy Kong on FD should never be compared to Metaknight on Brinstar, one is actually beatable. I'll restate it again and again and yet it is still compared, and I'm saying if you don't assess the strength of the counterpicks it's obvious you will brew a flawed stagelist, when the original did not have issues in the first place until stage nazis decided to create them for the use of justifying their liberal ideas.
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
Do you really not realize how dumb it is to claim all characters should start as close as possible to 50/50 on Game 1? No one anywhere else EVER has ever decided to favor bad characters just because they are bad.
ADHD
Smash Hero
That was the worst point you have ever made, lol.
So instead, we should nerf the truly "bad" characters, and then buff another group because they are merely versatile? So tell me, Raziek, what makes you think that the idea that the versatile should be rewarded and others be punished shouldn't be the other way around? Where the versatile remain unhindered, and the others remain tournament confident? It doesn't matter if you think you're right and I'm wrong, all your points are based on this notion which is entirely opinionated. In our system, the "bad" characters are good, and the versatile are good. I don't see a problem with this in the slightest bit.
Best stages don't matter, fair terrain does. Diddy/ICs/Falco are more than beatable and give everyone else an equal chance to win in a 5-starter system.
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
You are buffing characters deliberately. This is clearly biased.
Why would we ever alter the system to compensate for a character flaw? Your character is bad and should not receive a buff just because they ARE BAD.
Can you really not see how biased it is to buff characters for no reason?
Why would we ever alter the system to compensate for a character flaw? Your character is bad and should not receive a buff just because they ARE BAD.
Can you really not see how biased it is to buff characters for no reason?
It is also biased to try and debuff them and buff other characters with a 9 stage starter. Intentional or otherwise.
There are good reasons to have the stage list at 5 stages. The 5 stages usually picked tend to be the least interfering with gameplay. Past that point, you go into stages that clearly have some aspects that affect gameplay. Not things like platforms or uneven terrain, but moving platforms or hazards or what not. Even if they aren't a big deal, it's still there.
What is the ideal goal of the first match? To give both sides a fair stage, if possible, right? 5 stage list accomplishes that about the best you can. There is some variety in it, and at the same time it doesn't have that many CP like stages (Delfino, Halberd, etc).
Yes, Brawl should be more than just "boring", non interactive stages included. That and CPing stages is what makes Smash, well Smash. The question is do you want that to also apply to Game 1 or not? Game 1 obviously is the most important game of the set bar none. Winning Game 1 gives you a cushion and a last resort CP hopefully for an advantage. Do you think that Game 1 should try to be on stages that are "boring" because they are the least interacting with gameplay, or do you think Game 1 should be a bit more open to what happens for Games 2 and 3?
Diddy and the flat land brothers being good on those stages isn't the issue. There's nothing wrong with characters happening to be good on the stages that do the least. MK certainly is up on a cloud in the sky, looking down on everyone saying "I love all of my children, yes I do".
I think for Brawl, you should have a conservative starter, and a more liberal counter list (with it being reasonable. None of this Japes/Green Greens nonsense). Variety of stages good. First game though yes I would rather it be boring old FD, BF, or SV than Delfino, Halberd, etc being even a possibility in the first place.
There are good reasons to have the stage list at 5 stages. The 5 stages usually picked tend to be the least interfering with gameplay. Past that point, you go into stages that clearly have some aspects that affect gameplay. Not things like platforms or uneven terrain, but moving platforms or hazards or what not. Even if they aren't a big deal, it's still there.
What is the ideal goal of the first match? To give both sides a fair stage, if possible, right? 5 stage list accomplishes that about the best you can. There is some variety in it, and at the same time it doesn't have that many CP like stages (Delfino, Halberd, etc).
Yes, Brawl should be more than just "boring", non interactive stages included. That and CPing stages is what makes Smash, well Smash. The question is do you want that to also apply to Game 1 or not? Game 1 obviously is the most important game of the set bar none. Winning Game 1 gives you a cushion and a last resort CP hopefully for an advantage. Do you think that Game 1 should try to be on stages that are "boring" because they are the least interacting with gameplay, or do you think Game 1 should be a bit more open to what happens for Games 2 and 3?
Diddy and the flat land brothers being good on those stages isn't the issue. There's nothing wrong with characters happening to be good on the stages that do the least. MK certainly is up on a cloud in the sky, looking down on everyone saying "I love all of my children, yes I do".
I think for Brawl, you should have a conservative starter, and a more liberal counter list (with it being reasonable. None of this Japes/Green Greens nonsense). Variety of stages good. First game though yes I would rather it be boring old FD, BF, or SV than Delfino, Halberd, etc being even a possibility in the first place.
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
Best post regarding stages imo ^^^
If the first game is about bringing matchups closer to 50/50 (which I don't think it is), why don't we just have a specific starter for each matchup then? If land based characters get a boost to handle aerial characters, why can't we do it for aerial characters? Shouldn't jigglypuff get to start on Rainbow Cruise if it makes the matchup with Snake closer to even?
I personally think we should have the most logically fair system and let the chips fall where they may. However if making matchups more even is how its supposed to be done, it should be done for all characters. Let Ganon and Link start on Norfair. Let Sonic start on Yoshi's Island or Pictochat.
As for DMG's post, couldn't you apply what you said about CPing to the entire set. Isn't stage interaction what makes Smash what it is? Stages don't interfere with gameplay. Stages are part of gameplay.
I personally think we should have the most logically fair system and let the chips fall where they may. However if making matchups more even is how its supposed to be done, it should be done for all characters. Let Ganon and Link start on Norfair. Let Sonic start on Yoshi's Island or Pictochat.
As for DMG's post, couldn't you apply what you said about CPing to the entire set. Isn't stage interaction what makes Smash what it is? Stages don't interfere with gameplay. Stages are part of gameplay.
If stages do not interfere with gameplay, then why are some of them banned for doing that?
Most stages interfere/interact with gameplay. The legal ones obviously not to extreme amounts (hopefully). The question is whether you would WANT to play on a stage like that first game, or a more calm quiet stage? I'd rather lose on FD knowing my opponent got the best of me, than win on RC because something happened that could not on a quiet stage.
Game 1 IMO should be as non interactive as possible. You vs the opponent with the stage doing as little as possible to disturb the match. Why? Because even though this is Smash, most people for at LEAST the first game, if nothing else, want to solely play the other guy 1 on 1, mind vs mind, with nothing else in the way. I know of more people who would want to play on FD/BF/etc all day long because even though it may favor Diddy or IC's or whoever, they know that they are playing the opponent and that is it. They may lose because their character does bad against whoever on that stage, or cause the matchup is skewed, but it's definitely not losing because of any interactive interfering aspect of the stage.
Most stages interfere/interact with gameplay. The legal ones obviously not to extreme amounts (hopefully). The question is whether you would WANT to play on a stage like that first game, or a more calm quiet stage? I'd rather lose on FD knowing my opponent got the best of me, than win on RC because something happened that could not on a quiet stage.
Game 1 IMO should be as non interactive as possible. You vs the opponent with the stage doing as little as possible to disturb the match. Why? Because even though this is Smash, most people for at LEAST the first game, if nothing else, want to solely play the other guy 1 on 1, mind vs mind, with nothing else in the way. I know of more people who would want to play on FD/BF/etc all day long because even though it may favor Diddy or IC's or whoever, they know that they are playing the opponent and that is it. They may lose because their character does bad against whoever on that stage, or cause the matchup is skewed, but it's definitely not losing because of any interactive interfering aspect of the stage.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
There is no buffing of the aerial characters going on in the 9-stage starter. There would be if it was something like RC, Norfair, Brinstar, Green Greens, PS2, Frigate, Halberd, Delfino, RC again. No, instead we have a balance between stages aerial characters like and grounded characters like. And it usually ends up on YI or LC anyways, which is not exactly a counterpick for most characters.
So? If something affects gameplay, who cares? Learn to adapt to stages. Get rid of this god**** street fighter "stage is flat with no obstacles" concept, and pick up the street fighter "ban only what we must" concept.
DELFINO AND HALBERD ARE TERRIBLE CP STAGES.
When does anyone CP you to Delfino? When does anyone except snake CP you to Halberd? When it's G3 and you've already banned two of their counterpicks and a third one they can't pick because of Dave's Stupid Rule?
Then why are we letting Diddy automatically start on Battlefield, or Falco, or ICs? It's not fair terrain for them. It's a ridiculous advantage for them.
Yeah, but if they're only good on these few stages, and we can guarantee that they go there game 1, doesn't that mean our balance is a little whack?
Keep trying. Also, FD, BF, and SV are ridiculously biased towards grounded characters. Again, I've shown that that list is just as bad as RC, Brinstar, Delfino as a starter list.
Name me one stage that is banned (justifiably) for this alone.
Why is RC less quiet than FD? Remember, there is no randomness. Sure, the stage moves, but that's hardly a reason to john and say "the stage killed me"; no, that pendulum always vanishes there, and you were put into a ****ing terrible position by your opponent who apparently knows the stage better than you. What about brinstar? Again, it's not random, if you know the stage, it's just as quiet and simple as FD.
...
If I play on norfair, I am still playing against my opponent. The stage is not an enemy; it is a stage. When I play on brinstar, I am doing that even moreso, because there is no randomness. When I play on Rainbow Cruise, I am playing against my opponent. I have to adapt to the stage slightly, however, the complete and utter lack of random elements ensures that I know exactly how to play on that stage to do my best.
It's always gonna be 1v1; you don't hear me advocating throwing in a level 1 CPU ganon on games that start on FD or BF, do you? The stage is a component of the battle.
Or, the other way around, it's always gonna be 1v1v1. FD forces me to think up totally new ways to fight my opponent (the exact same way RC does!), so does battlefield. So does Smashville.
I can't really argue about a preference, but are you saying that less interactive means more fair? What if I find Smashville's moving platform is too interactive?
BPC I don't think he means random=interactive. Smashville , Lylat and YI are all random. I think he means hazards and walkoffs.
BPC I don't think he means random=interactive. Smashville , Lylat and YI are all random. I think he means hazards and walkoffs.
I didn't say Random. Just interactive aspects. It doesn't have to be random to be a problem.
Stage that is banned for that? Skyworld. Every potential problems stems from how the stage interacts with gameplay.
A stage does not have to be random to be interfering with gameplay. Take Pictochat for example. The drawings are not entirely random, yet they CLEARLY impact gameplay. PS1 the game tells you of the transformation, yet when the rock mountain develops everyone knows what happens. When the windmill comes, just because it tells you so doesn't mean now it's not in the way. If you see a car coming down the road, with the light on and the horn blasting, does it change the fact that it is coming and you have to do something about it? No.
Stages like RC and Brinstar and Norfair might not have bannable interference. That doesn't mean it's a great idea to start Game 1 on them. Same with Delfino and Halberd. Sure, the hazards and things that change might not be a problem, but it's still there. Even if you think it's minuscule, inconsequential, etc. Most people would not want that to be even a gleam of hope for Game 1.
The flat stages are not as bad as stages like Brinstar, RC, etc. There is actually some balance among themselves for the stage. FD for example. Who likes it the best out of Diddy, Falco, IC's, and Snake? What about BF? Or Smashville? Would Peach mind taking Diddy to FD? What about Olimar? Would Marth mind going BF against Falco or Snake?
Now, take those stages. Who wants to go up against MK, G&W, or Wario on those stages? Not many people at all lol.
Game 1 IMO should be boring, non interactive, player vs player in all regards. If the stage is flat, and characters like flat stages, so be it.
Would you rather play Tennis on a flat grass court, or on a variable terrain shape shifting court with linesmen holding up signs for you to jump to avoid the shockwaves while the ball has a countdown timer and G/S symbol on it for when it will massively shrink/grow while non-random birds swoop in making deflections based on what direction they came at the ball from, with the net sometimes waving up and down?
Stage that is banned for that? Skyworld. Every potential problems stems from how the stage interacts with gameplay.
A stage does not have to be random to be interfering with gameplay. Take Pictochat for example. The drawings are not entirely random, yet they CLEARLY impact gameplay. PS1 the game tells you of the transformation, yet when the rock mountain develops everyone knows what happens. When the windmill comes, just because it tells you so doesn't mean now it's not in the way. If you see a car coming down the road, with the light on and the horn blasting, does it change the fact that it is coming and you have to do something about it? No.
Stages like RC and Brinstar and Norfair might not have bannable interference. That doesn't mean it's a great idea to start Game 1 on them. Same with Delfino and Halberd. Sure, the hazards and things that change might not be a problem, but it's still there. Even if you think it's minuscule, inconsequential, etc. Most people would not want that to be even a gleam of hope for Game 1.
The flat stages are not as bad as stages like Brinstar, RC, etc. There is actually some balance among themselves for the stage. FD for example. Who likes it the best out of Diddy, Falco, IC's, and Snake? What about BF? Or Smashville? Would Peach mind taking Diddy to FD? What about Olimar? Would Marth mind going BF against Falco or Snake?
Now, take those stages. Who wants to go up against MK, G&W, or Wario on those stages? Not many people at all lol.
Game 1 IMO should be boring, non interactive, player vs player in all regards. If the stage is flat, and characters like flat stages, so be it.
Would you rather play Tennis on a flat grass court, or on a variable terrain shape shifting court with linesmen holding up signs for you to jump to avoid the shockwaves while the ball has a countdown timer and G/S symbol on it for when it will massively shrink/grow while non-random birds swoop in making deflections based on what direction they came at the ball from, with the net sometimes waving up and down?
That would be a ridiculous way to play tennis right? But if we played 3 tennis matches in a row, you would be okay with the birds, shockwaves, timers as long as the first match was on a normal court? If its so wrong and ruins gameplay, why do for game 2 and 3. Why don't we just stage strike from 5 neutrals for all 3 games of a set? And grand finals is just a match on all 5 legal stages. Why bother being fair only once per set?
TheOgbot
Smash Journeyman
Because that's why it's called counterpicking. You are at the disadvantage for losing the first game, so you get a chance to redeem yourself on your Tennis court of choice. Game 1 is played out on neutrals because it gives both players a chance to show that "Hey, I can demonstrate proficiency to the point of beating you when there aren't any hazards." Thus when the loser counterpicks, the winner of that match is being tested more thoroughly. That's why the winner of game 1 is rewarded with a counterpick on game 3. If you can play someone on your choice of court after losing, the winner of game 1 deserves that same benefit.
I personally agree with DMG on the topic of stages. Game 1 shouldn't be putting someone at a ridiculous advantage, (inb4 ICs and Falco uproar. Don't get grabbed) and after the 5 stages, things just get a little wonky.
Because not many would want to completely turn Smash into Street Fighter/x game like that on purpose. I don't think the entire set should be 5 neutrals every game only or 1 stage legal only. Smash is different and you should embrace it. BUT, at the same time, there is some merit for sticking with a Street Fighter like mentality for Game 1. For the most important game of the set, I think it's fair to try and have that be less Smash and more Regular Competitive Fighter like.
Edit: ^^^ Well put.
Edit: ^^^ Well put.
solecalibur
Smash Master
The starter stage system was created in melee correct?
It was on random?
I dont see why we cant try this as an experiment (5 , 7 , 9 stages on random )
Melee just picked up Stage striking but what about going back?
edit - i'd recommend 9 stage more as it does nerf diddys ICs and falco but it gives the other characters a more fair and balanced stage ultimately , Look at this situation for Diddy ICs and falco though , what do they normally counter pick? BF FD and SV ... well that is strange I thought we where starting on neutrals not counter picks. Seriously starting on a CP is ridiculous, Im well aware metaknight will "better" on these stages but I have a news flash for you
Metaknight is good on all stages , he has no bad stages (lol FD?) , Diddy ICs and Falco might just be doing better placing wise just because of how the stages are arranged for game 1
It was on random?
I dont see why we cant try this as an experiment (5 , 7 , 9 stages on random )
Melee just picked up Stage striking but what about going back?
edit - i'd recommend 9 stage more as it does nerf diddys ICs and falco but it gives the other characters a more fair and balanced stage ultimately , Look at this situation for Diddy ICs and falco though , what do they normally counter pick? BF FD and SV ... well that is strange I thought we where starting on neutrals not counter picks. Seriously starting on a CP is ridiculous, Im well aware metaknight will "better" on these stages but I have a news flash for you
Metaknight is good on all stages , he has no bad stages (lol FD?) , Diddy ICs and Falco might just be doing better placing wise just because of how the stages are arranged for game 1
chaosmaster1991
Smash Apprentice
Leaving that here again as no one pointed out yet why it would be a ridiculous idea for a reason I'm unaware of at the moment.
Concerning the court layout, I'd actually like to try that, it should be interesting.... the shockwaves and stuff might be a bit painful, but then again I'm no video game character (as far as I'm aware of).
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
I wondered why Skyworld was banned... What reasons exactly led to it being banned? The breakable cave of life?
You have to do something about it, but since when is this not a part of competitive smash? Why is having an impact on gameplay important when deciding the first stage of the match? Almost every stage does this, and in most sets, each other match will require this skill.
And how far are you going to go? I could easily claim that the moving platform on SV impacts gameplay severely if we're going by non-random factors. Or, hell, that any platforms are a massive impact on gameplay! And that leaves us with... A few walkoffs like BOE and GHZ which are banned anyways, and... FD.
"Disrupting" gameplay merely adds another required skill for the player-the ability to deal with these disruptions. If you can't deal with the utterly non-random disruptions on stages like Brinstar or RC, then go play street fighter.
It's almost reasonable to call foul on stages where it's random without a whole lot of warning because said events can harm one player severely at random, but how much warning is enough? Are the two seconds between when norfair's lava plumes appear in the background and when they nail you enough? The seconds where the new animation on pictochat are being scribbled? The tens of seconds on the pokemon stadiums where it tells you, "this is going to happen"?
So hang on. I have learned how to play my very best on every stage in the game that isn't flat-out instabanned (I learned how to play on, for example, distant planet, Luigi's Mansion, and similar stages that are ridiculously borderline). My opponent has only done this for "non-interferential" stages like FD, BF, or SV. I have a skill more than him, why is he being rewarded?
Interference is not an issue at all in most cases. The only cases where it's an issue are absolutely random interference with little to no warning and/or no escape point (the only stage that comes to mind is warioware), or when the game becomes completely centered around this interference to the extent that we're not playing brawl any more (only example: Mario Bros.).
My G&W, Metaknight, Wario, Pikachu, and ZSS, among others, would like a word with you.
Yeah. Now tell me. Why are we penalizing characters for being really good on a stage? See my example of ICs on FD vs. MK on Brinstar. Again. First few paragraphs of this post. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10803065&postcount=1918
No, no it shouldn't. Stages that require player skill should play a role too. When we are rewarding the worse player on game 1, there is something wrong.
Terrible, TERRIBLE analogy. Tennis completely relies on a flat court for any kind of gameplay. It would be a fair analogy if the characters in brawl had about the same movement capabilities as the fighters in Tekken or SF4 and they were forced onto stages like Brinstar or RC. But as is, a more fair example would be something like this:
Would you rather hold a major street race where the goal is to make your opponents crash and burn à la Burnout 3 in a Nascar circuit, or in a city where part of it has been roped off for your use (so that there are no random cars) there are buildings and stands and stuff that make your travel harder, tons of ramps, oh and someone left banana peels, koopa shells, and turbo mushrooms in known parts of the track?
ADHD
Smash Hero
Interference should be as limited as possible because it distracts from each player's skill in actuality. Player skill should not be determined by who can avoid each obstacle better than the other, or who can abuse the objects better. That is flatout the most anticompetitive viewpoint I have ever seen in this game. It is one thig if you have trained on a counterpick that is legal, and another to have 2 free games that win the set merely because your character is versatile and you started on a counterpick game 1.