9 Stage Starter System: a way to prevent stagnancy in brawl

[fkacyan]

Nothing Sakurai said means jack, he put in tripping.

It matters to at least one frequent poster in this thread who may or may not be the OP.

 

[Hater]

5/7 starter list is the best way to give an advatage to high tier characters (icies/diddy/falco) helping quell the mk reign imo being the best option. Also when we are avoiding obstacle more than our opponent (i.e pirate ship) we are not playing a competitive fighter we are playing a platformer with other players!

 

[ADHD]

^^^
Have you seen that guy thiocyanide's placings recently? He won that md/va tournament, and 3-0'd some snake player who's name can not be namesearched.

@ whatever your name is, razeki or something, Apex is too large of a tournament to be the testing ground for anything. It would have to be a regional, something of about 100 people.

 

[Raziek]

5/7 starter list is the best way to give an advatage to high tier characters (icies/diddy/falco) helping quell the mk reign imo being the best option. Also when we are avoiding obstacle more than our opponent (i.e pirate ship) we are not playing a competitive fighter we are playing a platformer with other players!

See, one thing I don't understand is why you guys are ok with restricting MK like this. Did you ever stop to think that if he was allowed to run free, he'd be dominant enough to have viable grounds to ban him? It has almost happened several times already, even with all these crazy rules like ledge-grab limits and anti-planking rules.

Worst case Scenario: He's even more broken, and people are still derpy enough to keep him legal. Otherwise, he's either not as bad as he thought, and the system is made based on a fair concept. Or, he gets banned because of clear over dominance in a system designed to be fair, not one that deliberately limits him.

Or, he might even dominate LESS than 5 starters, but you'll never know, because you guys won't take any risks, despite suffering with him constantly plaguing the metagame REGARDLESS of all the crazy restrictions and limitations you attempt to control him with.

@ADHD: So if not Apex, why not one of these smaller regionals? I mean, if nothing is even being experimented with, you're only part of the problem, not a possible solution. If it doesn't fix anything, then you have grounds to say, "No, put it back." or "This works, but ban MK."

 

[ADHD]

See, one thing I don't understand is why you guys are ok with restricting MK like this. Did you ever stop to think that if he was allowed to run free, he'd be dominant enough to have viable grounds to ban him? It has almost happened several times already, even with all these crazy rules like ledge-grab limits and anti-planking rules.

Worst case Scenario: He's even more broken, and people are still derpy enough to keep him legal. Otherwise, he's either not as bad as he thought, and the system is made based on a fair concept.

Or, he might even dominate LESS than 5 starters, but you'll never know, because you guys won't take any risks, despite suffering with him constantly plaguing the metagame REGARDLESS of all the crazy restrictions and limitations you attempt to control him with.

@ADHD: So if not Apex, why not one of these smaller regionals? I mean, if nothing is even being experimented with, you're only part of the problem, not a possible solution. If it doesn't fix anything, then you have grounds to say, "No, put it back." or "This works, but ban MK."

See, the problem is that the ones who mastered the character or are close to this state represent metaknight's bannable body, which is not even .2% of the population. The rest are practically beatable with most characters and player skill/experience, obviously. There has been no sudden outbreaks, and he's just borderline broken. I'm not sure whether to be pro ban or anti ban, but it's obvious he is the majority of this versatility population.

 

[Raziek]

See, the problem is that the ones who mastered the character or are close to this state represent metaknight's bannable body, which is not even .2% of the population. The rest are practically beatable with most characters and player skill/experience, obviously. There has been no sudden outbreaks, and he's just borderline broken. I'm not sure whether to be pro ban or anti ban, but it's obvious he is the majority of this versatility population.

Since when have characters been judged bannable based on their average performance? 95% of Meta-Knight players don't plank, don't counterpick intelligently, don't run the timer, or play like Orion.

We should be judging him based on what he is CAPABLE of, not what people choose to do. 95% of these players choosing not to abuse these tactics DOESN'T change the fact that he's easily more bannable if they were to do so.

In fact, the fact that's he's still borderline bannable even without the majority of players playing him to his potential just further reinforces my point.

 

[ADHD]

Since when have characters been judged bannable based on their average performance? 95% of Meta-Knight players don't plank, don't counterpick intelligently, don't run the timer, or play like Orion.

We should be judging him based on what he is CAPABLE of, not what people choose to do. 95% of these players choosing not to abuse these tactics DOESN'T change the fact that he's easily more bannable if they were to do so.

In fact, the fact that's he's still borderline bannable even without the majority of players playing him to his potential just further reinforces my point.

You're just arguing with me now bc you have to argue with me on anything.

 

[BBQTV]

the better player will win

 

[Raziek]

You're just arguing with me now bc you have to argue with me on anything.

No, I'm arguing with you because I disagree with you. Especially since you like ignoring posts that you can't refute.

 

[Orion*]

No, I'm arguing with you because I disagree with you. Especially since you like ignoring posts that you can't refute.

i hate when people that have put like no work into actually learning to play this game argue like they know something. experience actually matters you know, you just cant read smashboards and understand what goes on LOL

and i dont mean work like, oh i practice with my friends and place 1st at scrub tournament work. i mean like, you have a drive to win so deep, you travel and practice everyday because you HAVE to have first. you want to bleed for it *****

 

[chaosmaster1991]

ADHD, would you be so kind to adress this? Because otherwise I got nothing at all out of the discussion. Thx

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

i hate when people that have put like no work into actually learning to play this game argue like they know something. experience actually matters you know, you just cant read smashboards and understand what goes on LOL

and i dont mean work like, oh i practice with my friends and place 1st at scrub tournament work. i mean like, you have a drive to win so deep, you travel and practice everyday because you HAVE to have first. you want to bleed for it *****

Well if you guys know so much about the game and still can't formulate a convincing argument to stop people who are starting new scenes in their regions from adopting liberal stagelists, what does that say about you?

 

[ADHD]

Well if you guys know so much about the game and still can't formulate a convincing argument to stop people who are starting new scenes in their regions from adopting liberal stagelists, what does that say about you?

LMAO! You act like this stagelist is successful, or something. What regions so far, that did not have liberal stagelists in the first place adopt MLG's? The only tournaments I know of that used this BS system were tourneys to prepare for MLG's next event. Stop pulling stuff out of your ***.

Chaos, what, about ICs or the even ground/even air thing?

So far, MLG stagelist:
-Promotes metaknight dependency heavily, as he now has a far better chance against the matchups that were previously losable because they were even.
-Nerfs ground characters, and buffs aerial characters that weren't viable with metaknight and other matchup's existences.
-Relies much more on stage interferences, which is irrelevant to mind vs mind, knowledge, and matchup experience (it is just competitively inferior)

brb gtg

 

[Raziek]

i hate when people that have put like no work into actually learning to play this game argue like they know something. experience actually matters you know, you just cant read smashboards and understand what goes on LOL

and i dont mean work like, oh i practice with my friends and place 1st at scrub tournament work. i mean like, you have a drive to win so deep, you travel and practice everyday because you HAVE to have first. you want to bleed for it *****

I hate when you assume I've put no work into learning this game. I've written three stage guides, I'm anywhere between #1 and #3 on the regional PRs, (Currently LISTED as 3, but it depends on who you talk to) and I DO infact, practice a lot. I frequently drive around to other player's houses to practice, and I co-host biweekly tournaments every two weeks, USING THIS RULESET, I MIGHT ADD.

So don't assume that I don't know this game, Orion. You're probably only in here because I name-dropped you, anyway. That was a compliment for christ's sakes. xD

I don't mean to use you as an example, but I'm not like BPC in that I actually frequent tournaments QUITE often. In fact, whenever I get the chance. Unfortunately, due to my geographical location, making it to tournaments with 30-35 people is about as much as I can hope for. I would have LOVED to come to Apex, but we had other circumstances interfere with things.

As for ADHD, I have a problem with a couple more things you've said, and a few things you still need to address, since you're conveniently dodging the points.

So far, MLG stagelist:
-Promotes metaknight dependency heavily, as he now has a far better chance against the matchups that were previously losable because they were even.
-Nerfs ground characters, and buffs aerial characters that weren't viable with metaknight and other matchup's existences.
-Relies much more on stage interferences, which is irrelevant to mind vs mind, knowledge, and matchup experience (it is just competitively inferior)

Your first point is still completely unproven, we've been over this already. In theory, it does, but it hasn't been tested in the situations you want because your regions are increasingly stubborn about it.

Second point is just ****, and I'm astounded I have to keep addressing this. Firstly, it does not NERF ground characters, it removes an artificial buff they had received because the system was skewed in their favor. The system is designed to be balanced, and they DO do poorer in it, but stop calling it a nerf.

Your third point is just lulzy, stage knowledge is just as important as any other skill. You need just as much on FD as you do on a stage like RC. Stop acting like flat/plat is all there is to smash.

Now, on to the matter of you repeatedly dodging my posts.

Since when have characters been judged bannable based on their average performance? 95% of Meta-Knight players don't plank, don't counterpick intelligently, don't run the timer, or play like Orion.

We should be judging him based on what he is CAPABLE of, not what people choose to do. 95% of these players choosing not to abuse these tactics DOESN'T change the fact that he's easily more bannable if they were to do so.

In fact, the fact that's he's still borderline bannable even without the majority of players playing him to his potential just further reinforces my point.

You completely dodged this post, saying only that you "didn't want to argue with me anymore, because I argue about everything." Come on man, you can do better than that.

It's not like I'm saying air characters should get to start on Brinstar or RC. I'm saying there should be an even balance of ground and air stages. It's not like Air characters get to start on a counterpick with 9 starters anyway. We usually go to Yoshi's, Lylat, Halberd, or sometimes even Frigate in my list. Gives a SLIGHT advantage to air characters in some cases, which is what it should be, because they are better.

That's the other one you completely dodged. I'm not asking to reverse the roles here, and let US have a counterpick Game 1. I'm asking that the system be made fair so that it goes to a stage like Yoshi's, Halberd, or Lylat for Game 1. Stages no character really likes, yet neither really hates.

 

[chaosmaster1991]

Chaos, what, about ICs or the even ground/even air thing?

You're right, maybe I was a bit unclear, so let me reword it:

1. You said that FD is no counterpick, but as we were adressing ICs in this example and FD is their best stage, I wonder what makes you say that.

2. You also said ICs on FD is not as harsh as G&W on RC, but both force you to strike the stage respective stage when you're up against them (in theory at least).

3. You said there are characters that prefer fighting ICs on FD, yet FD is their best stage and logic commands that you should strike your opponent's best stage (unless the match-up is more in your favour there than on any other stage), especially if the character is rather unflexible. So, what character would want to fight ICs on FD?

Also, as for the ground/air stuff, let's say we use a 5 starter system as you're in favour of it. The usual list is, as you know,
Lyat
BF
YI
SV
FD

Now we can say that SV and Lyat cancel each other out as stages that slightly favour ground and air character respectively. Both BF and YI are closer to giving significant advantages to neither side. That leaves FD on the ground side with no counter stage to even it out. So basically, either BF or YI would need to be cut in order to implement a stage that heavily favours air characters. Let's say we cut YI (as the ghost is unpredictable and you don't like hazards) and use RC (which is perfectly predictable) instead. That leaves us with
RC
Lyat
BF
SV
FD

As I see it, that would be a list that unites your principles with the ratio thing. Air vs Ground goes to BF (you said none gains an advantage here before iirc), and ground vs ground and air vs air go to either side. Also less randomness if that helps.
What do you think about a starter list like that?

 

[Raziek]

The problem with using a small list like that is that it is too polarized. In your list, it would almost certainly go to BF every time, unless two characters of one type played each other.

9-starter accomplishes the same thing, but you gain added flexibility and strikes based on player preference, not just, "Oh, they're ICs, I have to strike FD and SV." It becomes, with 9, "Oh, they're ICs, I have to strike FD and SV for sure, but I still have two left. Let's strike.... BF because it's their next best, and Halberd because I don't like it.", for example.

 

[chaosmaster1991]

I know, I was kinda building up to something.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

LMAO! You act like this stagelist is successful, or something. What regions so far, that did not have liberal stagelists in the first place adopt MLG's? The only tournaments I know of that used this BS system were tourneys to prepare for MLG's next event. Stop pulling stuff out of your ***.

No, I'm saying that if a new region looks to this forum to decide how to set up their stagelist, they are 99% sure to go with the MLG list, if not even more liberal.

Chaos, what, about ICs or the even ground/even air thing?

So far, MLG stagelist:
-Promotes metaknight dependency heavily, as he now has a far better chance against the matchups that were previously losable because they were even.

Unproven.

-Nerfs ground characters, and buffs aerial characters that weren't viable with metaknight and other matchup's existences.

False, see Raziek's answer.

-Relies much more on stage interferences, which is irrelevant to mind vs mind, knowledge, and matchup experience (it is just competitively inferior)

GO PLAY STREET FIGHTER. Or at the very least, back up your claims that stage interference is competitively inferior, or that the ability to play well on a stage should not be a factor of a player's skill.

Also, as for the ground/air stuff, let's say we use a 5 starter system as you're in favour of it. The usual list is, as you know,
Lyat
BF
YI
SV
FD

Now we can say that SV and Lyat cancel each other out as stages that slightly favour ground and air character respectively. Both BF and YI are closer to giving significant advantages to neither side. That leaves FD on the ground side with no counter stage to even it out. So basically, either BF or YI would need to be cut in order to implement a stage that heavily favours air characters. Let's say we cut YI (as the ghost is unpredictable and you don't like hazards) and use RC (which is perfectly predictable) instead. That leaves us with
RC
Lyat
BF
SV
FD

As I see it, that would be a list that unites your principles with the ratio thing. Air vs Ground goes to BF (you said none gains an advantage here before iirc), and ground vs ground and air vs air go to either side. Also less randomness if that helps.
What do you think about a starter list like that?

Well, there's just a few little issues with it. First of all, SV is not even ground between aerial and ground. It's not even close. It's in fact stage pick number 2 for grounded characters in a stagelist that has stages like JJ banned. It's similar to FD 2.0; the moving platform is not large or consistently present enough. If you're going to put SV on one side, you have to put something more like Norfair, Brinstar, or Delfino on the other side.
The second issue is really that BF is, again, not even ground between aerial and ground.

A more accurate list would be this:
RC
Norfair
Lylat
SV
FD

Lylat, I have found, is shockingly even ground between grounded play and aerial play. I'd add one or two more "buffer stages" that are in a similar league, so that chars that get gayed by lylat for whatever reason don't have to automatically deal with RC or Norfair (or on the other side of the spectrum, SV)...

RC
Brinstar
Frigate
Lylat
CS/Halberd/other "middle of the road" neutral
SV
FD

That doesn't look too bad if you're gonna run 7 starters. If you really want to run 5, I recommend cutting 2 of the polar stages instead of the middle-of-the-road ones, again to prevent "I got gayed because the only stage that wasn't ******** for me is one I hated":

RC
Frigate
Lylat
CS/Halberd/other "middle of the road" neutral
SV

 

[chaosmaster1991]

Well okay, that's where I wanted to go in the end, oh well. My list featured predictable stages, as apparently a good number of people think the stage in the first game shouldn't interfere.

 

[Luxor]

Well okay, that's where I wanted to go in the end, oh well. My list featured predictable stages, as apparently a good number of people think the stage in the first game shouldn't interfere.

...but any stage with a real potential to interfere is banned anyway, leaving only easy stuff like Halberd's cannon or lava waves.

The issue here is that many flat, static, grounded stages interfere with matchups by swinging them one way or the other. If only people would get it through their heads that

1. FD is not a neutral stage!!! omg
2. STAGES THAT LEGITIMATELY INTERFERE WITH THE MATCH ARE BANNED ALREADY
3. You need a starter (not neutral) list that finds a stage for game 1 that helps/hurts both characters in the matchup evenly, meaning you need air/ground balance.

People are opposed to RC or anything even being on a starter list even if it has no potential to change the outcome of a match by "luck" or "interference." Even YI has more randomness than RC. Stuff like RC that favors aerial chars but traditionally haven't made starter lists need to.

If you agree that no stage decided legal by the TO has any "interference," BPC's full list striking becomes an option. The only three reasons not to do it are

1. Time constraints, not an issue if you go 6-7-1 or something
2. Actually want to buff grounded characters- "it's not an arbitrary buff... it's balance!" Valid enough, but you have no reason not to have at least nine stages.
3. Are afraid of putting "janky" stages on a starter list because players will say "lol RC is no nootral n00b FD is neutral it haz no platz!!" The vurrent problem.

This kind of rambled on in a way I didn't expect lol.

 

[ADHD]

Your first point is still completely unproven, we've been over this already. In theory, it does, but it hasn't been tested in the situations you want because your regions are increasingly stubborn about it.

Yes, because we refuse to stoop down competitively to using this ruleset.

Second point is just ****, and I'm astounded I have to keep addressing this. Firstly, it does not NERF ground characters, it removes an artificial buff they had received because the system was skewed in their favor. The system is designed to be balanced, and they DO do poorer in it, but stop calling it a nerf.

ROFL. Okay. Your side's supporters have consistently called it a nerf, but now it's not. WHATEVER.

Your third point is just lulzy, stage knowledge is just as important as any other skill. You need just as much on FD as you do on a stage like RC. Stop acting like flat/plat is all there is to smash.

Get it through your mind please, that obstacles like carpets, rockets, spikes, and lava do not become any less avoidable with stage knowledge. This set out terrain is strong, in the sense that whatever transition they will instantly place people at disadvantaged positions, AND NO AMOUNT OF EXPERIENCE CAN CHANGE THAT. This is not avoiding pikachu's downsmash hits because you know to SDI. Again, it detracts from skill, and knowing they're there does not = adapting when they are getting in the ****ing way despite anything of your doing, lol. I can't say your point was in the slightest bit valid.

Now, on to the matter of you repeatedly dodging my posts.

That MK argument had NOTHING to do with the debating at hand, but fine!

You cannot diagnose a disease if there are no visible symptoms. Metaknight dominance does not truly exist right now, so there is nothing to worry about atm. If you are going by what the character can potentially do, well then, HELL, perfect Diddy Kong, Falco, Ice Climbers, Snake, Wario, etc. are almost as bannable as perfect Metaknight.

That's the other one you completely dodged. I'm not asking to reverse the roles here, and let US have a counterpick Game 1. I'm asking that the system be made fair so that it goes to a stage like Yoshi's, Halberd, or Lylat for Game 1. Stages no character really likes, yet neither really hates.

...

We've gone over this. Why do you think I'm here, because don't agree with it and never will. Stage 1 should be a stage where each character has the closest matchup to an even ratio, for competitive's sake.




And LOL at BPC's hopes for the future. Not everyone here doesn't play this game competitively, like you. And why are you on these forums again, when you make no efforts to travel to any at any given period of time, vacation, no?

Wow at you telling me to play streetfighter, play mario party. Randomness is your fav, brah. This game is traditionally set to the standards we've placed upon it, and I'm growing tired of scrubs constantly belittling it since it's release. YOU DON'T HAVE TO PLAY BRAWL COMPETITIVELY IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, but don't, don't, try to change things if you aren't going to compete even after your ruleset is by some miracle is put into place. It's meaningless.

@ chaos, I'll respond to that later. This phone can't multiquote.

 

[ADHD]

1. You said that FD is no counterpick, but as we were adressing ICs in this example and FD is their best stage, I wonder what makes you say that.

See DMG's post for a definition of a counterpick.

2. You also said ICs on FD is not as harsh as G&W on RC, but both force you to strike the stage respective stage when you're up against them (in theory at least).

Let's draw an imaginary line on a board. On one side are ground stages, and on the other enlies aerial stages. The farther away you are from the line, the harsher your stage's environment becomes. Now, FD, Smashville, Yoshi's, etc. are remotely close to that line. Rainbow cruise and brinstar (air stages on the aerial side) are fairly far from the line. The point of this situation, is that I'm saying if you truly wanted a balanced 9-starter to be "fair," the ground stages would have to be just as far from the line as the air stages. BUT, no such thing can be possible, and therefor we should not seek to make this balance possible by throwing in extreme aerial stages to satisfy this even ground to air quantity relationship.

And besides, my morals are that Game 1 should make the matchup ratio as close to even as possible.

3. You said there are characters that prefer fighting ICs on FD, yet FD is their best stage and logic commands that you should strike your opponent's best stage (unless the match-up is more in your favour there than on any other stage), especially if the character is rather unflexible. So, what character would want to fight ICs on FD?

Diddy Kong, Snake, ROB, Toon Link, anyone that can camp with a projectile.

Also, as for the ground/air stuff, let's say we use a 5 starter system as you're in favour of it. The usual list is, as you know,
Lyat
BF
YI
SV
FD

Now we can say that SV and Lyat cancel each other out as stages that slightly favour ground and air character respectively. Both BF and YI are closer to giving significant advantages to neither side. That leaves FD on the ground side with no counter stage to even it out. So basically, either BF or YI would need to be cut in order to implement a stage that heavily favours air characters. Let's say we cut YI (as the ghost is unpredictable and you don't like hazards) and use RC (which is perfectly predictable) instead. That leaves us with
RC
Lyat
BF
SV
FD

As I see it, that would be a list that unites your principles with the ratio thing. Air vs Ground goes to BF (you said none gains an advantage here before iirc), and ground vs ground and air vs air go to either side. Also less randomness if that helps.
What do you think about a starter list like that?

Better than the 9 starter system, LOL. I still think RC is too extreme; replace it with perhaps frigate.

 

[Raziek]

Yes, because we refuse to stoop down competitively to using this ruleset.

You call its legitimacy into question by claiming the events that run it are flawed, but you refuse to run it yourself to prove your claims? Wow, nice double standard. If you won't even try it, you lose your claim to the TVs point.

ROFL. Okay. Your side's supporters have consistently called it a nerf, but now it's not. WHATEVER.

Are you arguing with me, or my side's supporters? It's not a nerf, it's a removal of an undeserved, unintentional buff.

Get it through your mind please, that obstacles like carpets, rockets, spikes, and lava do not become any less avoidable with stage knowledge. This set out terrain is strong, in the sense that whatever transition they will instantly place people at disadvantaged positions, AND NO AMOUNT OF EXPERIENCE CAN CHANGE THAT. This is not avoiding pikachu's downsmash hits because you know to SDI. Again, it detracts from skill, and knowing they're there does not = adapting when they are getting in the ****ing way despite anything of your doing, lol. I can't say your point was in the slightest bit valid.

You're quite frankly an idiot, if you think that learning and adapting to stages doesn't take skill. Knowing when Lava comes up on Brinstar, when Frigate is going to flip, which platforms on RC are permeable, these are all important things to know. If you know how to adapt, THAT IS SKILL. Just as much as knowing how to do a single nanner lock as a character who doesn't play Diddy, or any number of other ATs. It's part of the game, stop acting like you don't have to deal with it. It's not like items, where we can just opt to switch it off completely.

That MK argument had NOTHING to do with the debating at hand, but fine!

You cannot diagnose a disease if there are no visible symptoms. Metaknight dominance does not truly exist right now, so there is nothing to worry about atm. If you are going by what the character can potentially do, well then, HELL, perfect Diddy Kong, Falco, Ice Climbers, Snake, Wario, etc. are almost as bannable as perfect Metaknight.

You're strawmanning AGAIN. You claimed that MK was too much of a problem with the ruleset to make it valid, I said prove it, and outlined the scenarios. Why do you continually reject that a ban on MetaKnight is INDEED possible? We've built a system designed to minimize every advantage he has and he's STILL a problem. Why would we not try to build a fair system, remove him from it, and enjoy a significantly more balanced game?

...

We've gone over this. Why do you think I'm here, because don't agree with it and never will. Stage 1 should be a stage where each character has the closest matchup to an even ratio, for competitive's sake.

I can't even believe how ******** you are to continue saying this. WHY SHOULD THE MATCHUP BE BROUGHT AS CLOSE TO EVEN AS POSSIBLE, IF ONE CHARACTER IS CLEARLY WORSE THAN THE OTHER?! That's pointless, needless favoritism designed to favor bad characters who lack versatility! Ganon doesn't deserve to fight every match on Pirate Ship just because he's godawful, why should other characters get similar treatment? ICs aren't versatile. That's a weakness. They shouldn't have it minimized for game 1, just because you want to baby the BAD CHARACTERS.

 

[ADHD]

You call its legitimacy into question by claiming the events that run it are flawed, but you refuse to run it yourself to prove your claims? Wow, nice double standard. If you won't even try it, you lose your claim to the TVs point.

You have given no evidence either, just an opinion with additional theories.

Are you arguing with me, or my side's supporters? It's not a nerf, it's a removal of an undeserved, unintentional buff.

No, the transition is a nerf, and I think you've called it this as well previously.

You're quite frankly an idiot, if you think that learning and adapting to stages doesn't take skill. Knowing when Lava comes up on Brinstar, when Frigate is going to flip, which platforms on RC are permeable, these are all important things to know. If you know how to adapt, THAT IS SKILL. Just as much as knowing how to do a single nanner lock as a character who doesn't play Diddy, or any number of other ATs. It's part of the game, stop acting like you don't have to deal with it. It's not like items, where we can just opt to switch it off completely.

You missed the point. You can't adapt to stages in which the obstacles are too harsh. There is no reward for practicing when the stage will thieve you of wins regardless. Where is this so called huge factor of skill when you'll lose to unavoidable terrian interferences despite experience? Have you ever played as marth against a metaknight on RC? If so, you'd know what I'm talking about.

You're strawmanning AGAIN. You claimed that MK was too much of a problem with the ruleset to make it valid, I said prove it, and outlined the scenarios. Why do you continually reject that a ban on MetaKnight is INDEED possible? We've built a system designed to minimize every advantage he has and he's STILL a problem. Why would we not try to build a fair system, remove him from it, and enjoy a significantly more balanced game?

You are a hypocrite. You want a more balanced game while promoting Green Green's, Jape's, Norfair's, and other ridiculous stages' legalization. Get out, rofl.

When solid evidence is presented to you, you simply turn your head and disapprove of it without giving your share of info around the issues, because there are none that are practical.

I can't even believe how ******** you are to continue saying this. WHY SHOULD THE MATCHUP BE BROUGHT AS CLOSE TO EVEN AS POSSIBLE, IF ONE CHARACTER IS CLEARLY WORSE THAN THE OTHER?! That's pointless, needless favoritism designed to favor bad characters who lack versatility! Ganon doesn't deserve to fight every match on Pirate Ship just because he's godawful, why should other characters get similar treatment? ICs aren't versatile. That's a weakness. They shouldn't have it minimized for game 1, just because you want to baby the BAD CHARACTERS.

Game 1 should be of purest equality for every character, that way the community does not fall into utter pieces. Having others start off completely disadvantaged because of a stagelist is so horribly anticompetitive, and we would rapidly succumb to boredom.

 

[Raziek]

You have given no evidence either, just an opinion with additional theories.

I have plenty of evidence, because I've actually TESTED these systems. 9-starter has been well received in my area, much moreso than I expected, in fact. It's here to stay for our biweeklies, and I'm in the process of getting it implemented for our big tournies. YOU, on the other hand, have done nothing but ***** about a system that you perform poorly in, with VERY little legitimate reasoning to back it up.

No, the transition is a nerf, and I think you've called it this as well previously.

Christ. If the system is unfair, and it buffs you, when it comes time that we FIX the system, and your UNFAIR buff in no longer there, it isn't a nerf, it's BALANCING.

You missed the point. You can't adapt to stages in which the obstacles are too harsh. There is no reward for practicing when the stage will thieve you of wins regardless. Where is this so called huge factor of skill when you'll lose to unavoidable terrian interferences despite experience? Have you ever played as marth against a metaknight on RC? If so, you'd know what I'm talking about.

Define too harsh? What stages in particular? We've proven countless times that Norfair, Japes, and all these so-called "ridiculous" are infact fit for competitive play, ESPECIALLY if you adapt on the fly to their events.

You are a hypocrite. You want a more balanced game while promoting Green Green's, Jape's, Norfair's, and other ridiculous stages' legalization. Get out, rofl.

YOU are a hypocrite. You petition for any even match-up for Game 1 only because that benefits your non-versatile character!

Game 1 should be of purest equality for every character, that way the community does not fall into utter pieces. Having others start off completely disadvantaged because of a stagelist is so horribly anticompetitive, and we would rapidly succumb to boredom.

Completely unfounded claims, AND NO, IT SHOULD NOT. WE DO NOT BUFF BAD CHARACTERS BECAUSE THEY ARE BAD. No wonder you're not in the BBR anymore, your arguments are ********!

 

[chaosmaster1991]

See DMG's post for a definition of a counterpick.

Definition of a CP stage: A stage not fit for being a starter, but not so severely impacting gameplay that it ought to be banned.

This? It's not a brilliant definition if I dare say but as FD has absolutely nothing, it works in this case.

Let's draw an imaginary line on a board. On one side are ground stages, and on the other enlies aerial stages. The farther away you are from the line, the harsher your stage's environment becomes. Now, FD, Smashville, Yoshi's, etc. are remotely close to that line. Rainbow cruise and brinstar (air stages on the aerial side) are fairly far from the line. The point of this situation, is that I'm saying if you truly wanted a balanced 9-starter to be "fair," the ground stages would have to be just as far from the line as the air stages. BUT, no such thing can be possible, and therefor we should not seek to make this balance possible by throwing in extreme aerial stages to satisfy this even ground to air quantity relationship.

Yeah, that's the problem. There are far more stages on the aerial side than on the ground side, so when you go X steps into the directon of the ground stages you arrive at a more polarizing stage than when you go the same number of steps into tho other direction. Another possibility to determine the stages is to go from the most extreme stage of each side (that's also why I had RC included in the list instead of Frigate or another stage closer to the line).
As for the balance, let's assume that Smash Bros. was a card game (works in this situation as we are only theory crafting) and to simplify the matter, we give every character a base strenght (determined on the most neutral stage we have). This number is now influenced by the stage, stages are divided into ground and air and ordered (the higher the number we give them, the farther they are on a side), basically exactly what you said. Every character now has either a now a '+' on one side and a '-' on the other side, alongside a factor (indicating how much they gain/lose strenght on ground/air stages). When we determine the actual strenght for a character we use his base strenght and and add the product of the factor and the number we assigned to the stage. When a air character fights on an air stage, he gains points, on a ground stage he loses points. For ground characters it's the same system, just the other way around.
Now, when we use your method and assigned the numbers just based on how far the stage is away from our determined neutral stage, we get ground stages and less polarized air stages (because there are more of them, so the steps are smaller). The second method would be to determine the number independently from the actual number of stages on one side (that means if you had 3 ground stages, one of them could get a 5 nevertheless). In both examples stages with the same number are added determine the starter list, the ground stages are always the same as the number is limited, but depending on the system we used to assign the numbers, the air stages vary. So all in all, you use the first method, I used the second one earlier (both are possible though). I know this might have been a bit redundant but I wanted a card game example >_>;;

And besides, my morals are that Game 1 should make the matchup ratio as close to even as possible.

That's also a problem as low tiers would start on some pretty odd stages. Of course when you give them those as starters and can always determine which stage brings it to even (or as close as possible), this method is fine.

Diddy Kong, Snake, ROB, Toon Link, anyone that can camp with a projectile.

I see, thank you.

Better than the 9 starter system, LOL. I still think RC is too extreme; replace it with perhaps frigate.

As I pointed out above, it's all a matter of the system. Personally, I think every method has advantages (and disadvantages of course), as long as you use it throughout the whole system it's fine though.


@Luxor
I hope you know that the 5 starter system would not be my system of choice, I merely gave an example of how I would do it when I had to.

 

[ADHD]

I have plenty of evidence, because I've actually TESTED these systems. 9-starter has been well received in my area, much moreso than I expected, in fact. It's here to stay for our biweeklies, and I'm in the process of getting it implemented for our big tournies. YOU, on the other hand, have done nothing but ***** about a system that you perform poorly in, with VERY little legitimate reasoning to back it up.

IN YOUR TERRIBLE *** REGION WHERE I'D WIN WITH MY ****TY MK. It's not fair for you to take advantage of scrubs who don't know any better! In fact, show me the results threads for these, or how am I to believe you?

Christ. If the system is unfair, and it buffs you, when it comes time that we FIX the system, and your UNFAIR buff in no longer there, it isn't a nerf, it's BALANCING.

NO IT IS CLEARLY A NERF FROM SYSTEM TO SYSTEM, STOP PLAYING WITH WORDS.

Define too harsh? What stages in particular? We've proven countless times that Norfair, Japes, and all these so-called "ridiculous" are infact fit for competitive play, ESPECIALLY if you adapt on the fly to their events.

NO YOU HAVEN'T. YOU HAVEN'T PROVED ANYTHING OR RESPONDED TO THE VALID ARGUMENTS AGAINST THEM.

Here's how it goes:
"Stuff about stage that enables it to be banned."
"NO. NOT A VALID REASON TO BAN THE STAGE."

...okay? Care to elaborate why it isn't and what to do about these issues?

YOU are a hypocrite. You petition for any even match-up for Game 1 only because that benefits your non-versatile character!!

Is that you, Overswarm?

(sees person wanting to impose terrible stages, & ban MK too.)

Completely unfounded claims, AND NO, IT SHOULD NOT. WE DO NOT BUFF BAD CHARACTERS BECAUSE THEY ARE BAD. No wonder you're not in the BBR anymore, your arguments are ********!

You're so mad ROFL. They didn't want you bc you're just as crazy as 90% of the others back there, they wanted diversity. Almost all of the sane people quit, except for maybe about 2. There is going to be a point where this community just entirely falls into pieces, and it'll be YOUR FAULT.

 

[DMG]

Ah, but FD is already a starter. Stage that does nothing = thrown into starter.

FD is not as severe of a CP as Brinstar or RC.

FD:
MK's arguably worst stage.
Snake likes it except against Dedede.
Dedede likes it except against Falco, IC's, Diddy, Olimar.
Falco likes it except against IC's.
IC's like it except against Snake and Diddy.
Diddy likes it except against Wario and Snake.
Wario kinda sorta likes it, except against Peach, Marth, Dedede.
Marth kinda likes it.
Olimar likes it, but also has to compete with the others who are good here (Falco, Diddy, Snake, IC's)

FD isn't auto strike as much as RC or Brinstar because amongst the characters who excel on it, there are counters for them and then counters/slightly bad matchups for those counters, and so on for a bit.

RC:
One of MK's best stages.
Snake doesn't want this.
Falco surely doesn't want this.
IC's DEFINITELY don't want this.
Wario wants it, except against MK.
Same with G&W, except against MK.
Marth doesn't want this even against people he traditionally beats like Wario and G&W.
Olimar isn't gravy on this stage, definitely not one of his better stages.
Dedede kind of likes it in that Falco/IC's/Diddy not seen as much, but MK gets a lot worse and other closer matchups swing away from him. Wario, G&W, Marth, etc.
Most of the people below this point that are aerial based would like the stage a lot more if MK didn't poop on them harder than usual. TL, ZSS, Kirby, etc

FD is like "A lot of people are pretty good on it" compared to Brinstar and RC where it's "A few people are now REALLY good on it, including the best character." From just a matchup perspective, RC and Brinstar skew matchups more severely with less "good" characters on the stage that get this benefit and balance each other out. MK, Wario, and G&W are the 3 main benefitors and anyone else who would benefit from the stage compared to FD now has a bigger MK problem, if not also having Wario and G&W with an advantage on them. FD MK is less of a problem, which lets Snake shine, which lets Dedede come out, which lets Diddy/Falco/IC's/Olimar/others come out to play. RC and Brinstar, no one comes out to play cause big mean bully MK is too strong, and Bouncers Wario and G&W won't let anyone into the club.

So yes, I would definitely contest the point that FD is as severe of a CP as RC or Brinstar, just on a pure matchup basis not even factoring in the stage aspects that make them CP to begin with.

 

[Raziek]

IN YOUR TERRIBLE *** REGION WHERE I'D WIN WITH MY ****TY MK. It's not fair for you to take advantage of scrubs who don't know any better! In fact, show me the results threads for these, or how am I to believe you?

Your argument goes both ways. You're spouting the same types of statements yet peopl;e believe because you're a skilled player. Not because you make logical, intelligent arguments (you don't), just because you're good.

Since you asked, here's the series: http://allisbrawl.com/series.aspx?id=600

I don't have results threads for them on Smashboards, save the one that used the Apex stagelist, #7.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=280629

What matters is that all of the changes that I've implemented for testing have been received positively. People LIKE 9-starters, they LIKE the extra counterpicks, and they LIKE the way I run things.

NO IT IS CLEARLY A NERF FROM SYSTEM TO SYSTEM, STOP PLAYING WITH WORDS.

You received a buff because the system favored you. That buff was removed as the result of a system fix. This is balancing, not a nerf. Clearly you've never played an MMO before.

NO YOU HAVEN'T. YOU HAVEN'T PROVED ANYTHING OR RESPONDED TO THE VALID ARGUMENTS AGAINST THEM.

Here's how it goes:
"Stuff about stage that enables it to be banned."
"NO. NOT A VALID REASON TO BAN THE STAGE."

...okay? Care to elaborate why it isn't and what to do about these issues?

Do you even read any of my threads? Like the Norfair guide? Clearly not. You also don't hang around the stage boards enough to know that all of this has been brought up and discussed MANY times in the stage dicussion thread, with the general agreement being that these stages are fine.

Is that you, Overswarm?

(sees person wanting to impose terrible stages, & ban MK too.)

You're so mad ROFL. They didn't want you bc you're just as crazy as 90% of the others back there, they wanted diversity. Almost all of the sane people quit, except for maybe about 2. There is going to be a point where this community just entirely falls into pieces, and it'll be YOUR FAULT.

Here's something to chew on: If 90% of the BR favors these ideas, and the BR is a place for respected, knowledgeable players of the game, something tells me that YOUR opinion is the one that is wrong, not theirs. These people are the ones hosting MLG tournaments, which have been QUITE successful, I might add. And yes, I am mad, because you're so stubborn that you refuse to concede your points even when cornered by logic. Even I am willing to change my view when confronted by logic, but nothing you've said has enough grounding in competitive logic to change my mind. Especially not this, "Bad characters should get to have even matchup ratios for Game 1" hilariousness.

 

[chaosmaster1991]

Especially not this, "Bad characters should get to have even matchup ratios for Game 1" hilariousness.

Well, I suppose as long as it applies to all match-ups, that is low tier characters get their good stages, even if those stages wouldn't be starters normally, it's somewhat acceptable and goes back on the different ideals we already covered.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Ah, but FD is already a starter. Stage that does nothing = thrown into starter.

FD is not as severe of a CP as Brinstar or RC.

FD:
MK's arguably worst stage.
Snake likes it except against Dedede.
Dedede likes it except against Falco, IC's, Diddy, Olimar.
Falco likes it except against IC's.
IC's like it except against Snake and Diddy.
Diddy likes it except against Wario and Snake.
Wario kinda sorta likes it, except against Peach, Marth, Dedede.
Marth kinda likes it.
Olimar likes it, but also has to compete with the others who are good here (Falco, Diddy, Snake, IC's)

FD isn't auto strike as much as RC or Brinstar because amongst the characters who excel on it, there are counters for them and then counters/slightly bad matchups for those counters, and so on for a bit.

RC:
One of MK's best stages.
Snake doesn't want this.
Falco surely doesn't want this.
IC's DEFINITELY don't want this.
Wario wants it, except against MK.
Same with G&W, except against MK.
Marth doesn't want this even against people he traditionally beats like Wario and G&W.
Olimar isn't gravy on this stage, definitely not one of his better stages.
Dedede kind of likes it in that Falco/IC's/Diddy not seen as much, but MK gets a lot worse and other closer matchups swing away from him. Wario, G&W, Marth, etc.
Most of the people below this point that are aerial based would like the stage a lot more if MK didn't poop on them harder than usual. TL, ZSS, Kirby, etc

FD is like "A lot of people are pretty good on it" compared to Brinstar and RC where it's "A few people are now REALLY good on it, including the best character." From just a matchup perspective, RC and Brinstar skew matchups more severely with less "good" characters on the stage that get this benefit and balance each other out. MK, Wario, and G&W are the 3 main benefitors and anyone else who would benefit from the stage compared to FD now has a bigger MK problem, if not also having Wario and G&W with an advantage on them. FD MK is less of a problem, which lets Snake shine, which lets Dedede come out, which lets Diddy/Falco/IC's/Olimar/others come out to play. RC and Brinstar, no one comes out to play cause big mean bully MK is too strong, and Bouncers Wario and G&W won't let anyone into the club.

So yes, I would definitely contest the point that FD is as severe of a CP as RC or Brinstar, just on a pure matchup basis not even factoring in the stage aspects that make them CP to begin with.

This is a good post, and almost makes complete sense. The issue you are missing here is that the characters that are good on FD are not the characters who are the best in the game with no bad matchups anywhere. Expecting them to not have poor matchups on their strongest counterpick is like expecting a character like ganon to have some really good matchups on his strongest counterpick (norfair or brinstar), and then calling those stages balanced when you're shown to be wrong. RC is a stronger counterpick because MK IS ****ING STUPID. Oh and air characters are more versatile, better characters.

 

[ADHD]

Raziek, did you just say MLG is successful, assuming because of how it's ran? You do realize, right, that if MLG had only norfair as a one-stage stagelist, people would still attend because the name is one of the most
prestegious in video game history? I don't see anyone believing me; the only people active in these boards are me, dmg, and 7 other people for the MLG stagelist. Of course the majority of people on swf's stage forums would be liberal, bc what else then would there to be discuss? If I could just gather good posters and get this debate more hype..

Voting in the BBR is the finalized result, and the active people in the backroom (despite them seeming almost everyone there) spout the same ideas repeatedly, yet when a poll appears the outcome ignores almost all previous debating. There might be a light that I'm not alone.

 

[DMG]

Of course MK is stupid. He is stupid on that stage. He is so dumb that he makes it pointless for other characters to even try to pick that stage because he will do whatever they do 10x better. That's Brawl for ya lol.

That's the point though. Do you really think a stage like that is good enough to be a starter? At least with FD, even though it skews matchups there is some reasonable variety in characters to be expected because there are a lot of 50:50 or 55:45 matchups amongst the main characters who benefit. It's like RPS against characters who really like FD. Snake Falco Dedede IC's Olimar Diddy etc, with their counters also coming into play some. For RC, that isn't there. Even if it's solely because of MK, it just isn't there. It's not as bad as Hyrule's "Pick this character or lose" or extremely bad circle camping stages, but it's still bad.

 

[fkacyan]

YOU are a hypocrite. You petition for any even match-up for Game 1 only because that benefits your non-versatile character!

In other words, the tourney should be a test of who gets luckier in the double blind, then?

Are you ********?

A tourney is a test of player skill, arguably the best way to do so with with an even matchup.

You're working from completely the wrong angle here.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Wait what? In that case, shouldn't we have rules helping out the bad characters like ganon (ever heard of "punch time"?), or making sure that every match automatically goes to the stage that brings it closest to 50-50?

 

[fkacyan]

Wait what? In that case, shouldn't we have rules helping out the bad characters like ganon (ever heard of "punch time"?), or making sure that every match automatically goes to the stage that brings it closest to 50-50?

IN the best case scenario, every match would start on the stage where matchup being played was most even. Obviously, this is really hard to set up because we're all morons when it comes to matchup and character evaluation.

 

[T-block]

lol SCN when did you put that in your sig?

By even, do you honestly mean 50-50? Many characters have OHKOs on Mushroomy Kingdom II with u-throw off the top. I bet any matchup between two characters that can do that would be pretty **** close to 50-50.

 

[fkacyan]

lol SCN when did you put that in your sig?

By even, do you honestly mean 50-50? Many characters have OHKOs on Mushroomy Kingdom II with u-throw off the top. I bet any matchup between two characters that can do that would be pretty **** close to 50-50.

I sigged it right after he posted it, but my comments are usually too short for it to show up.

@Second Part: HAR HAR GIMMICKS

 

[Tesh]

Ganon probably has some even matchups on norfair. 1 grab 1 stock.

 

[ADHD]

Okay, then the median between air to ground stages is Hanenbow. Then everyone is happy!

Debate done. Hanenbow for 1-stage stagelist.