Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[The_Bookworm]

Mr. R seems to prefer FD.

I like FD and Town over SV in a lot of MU's for sheik

The only thing sheik has going for her on SV are the platform combos at low %

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) January 27, 2017

I sometimes call Smashville "Diddyville" or "Nessville".

 

[The_Bookworm]

https://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

Sumabato 23, featuring...

Komorikiri
HIKARU
Raito
Kie
Ri-Ma
Kome
Gackt
Zaki
Takera
Oisiitofu
Kept
Pon
Tea

and more!

Pretty much the only relevant event this weekend, and it is not PGR'ed. Komo only really uses Roy against any Bayo he encounters in the bracket, and even then it didn't go so well in Frostbite.

Btw, do you guys know when the official list's followup article is going to be released? It has been two months ever since the list's release.

 

[Lord Dio]

Oisiitofu made otu of first in his bracket. In the same bracket, Nojinko beat takera, and those two also lost to APEC the lucina
hikaru apparently murdered sol at a weekly then lost to a mac, makes it out 2nd in his pool.

 

[Minordeth]

At this point, I’d say Mistake could be a better Bayo than Salem at the end of V5 with how well he’s been doing lately, he’s been getting out of his slump from late PGR v4

Nah.

Mistake is playing Zack’s game just more so. Like, his heel slides are dumb, if they get punished. But, whether he knows it or not, he’s essentially going full Rushdown Bayo, and it is basically working until he runs into someone who No Sells him.

Like, here's a hot take on the top 4 US Bayos:

Captain Zack: He isn’t doing as well because he runs into niche MUs that actually don’t do bad against Bayo at all (Ness, Rob... well maybe Mac) and it requires more specific counterplay that he hasn't implemented yet.

Yes, Rob can actually mess Bayo up.

Salem: Salem doesn't really get upset by random stuff because he plays the more conservative game. But he also is not good at the ditto, and he's knocked into Losers or beaten by other Bayos twice in a row now. In addition, he doesn't really have a consistent answer for Leo or Dabuz.

But then again, neither do the other Bayos.

Mistake: He's gone straight rushdown, in recent months, and it's paid off for him. It's not really the kind of strat that pays off in terms of consistency, tho, especially with Bayo. He's also been fortunate to run into late bracket Bayo dittos, which he is pretty good at.

Lima: He is a good combination of rushdown and the more zone/bait play that Salem does. His conversions are probably the best, but he also runs into high level niche players (like the Great Gonzales) that do okay against Bayo. He also is iffy on the ditto.

Mr. R seems to prefer FD.

I like FD and Town over SV in a lot of MU's for sheik

The only thing sheik has going for her on SV are the platform combos at low %

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) January 27, 2017

People really think sheik SV is broken or something LOL. I almost never CP that stage

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) January 27, 2017

Yeah, Mr. R also has a top 3 ledge game. No surprise he loves it when you can't get back to the stage very well.

 

[Krysco]

Props to Krysco for doing God’s work, here.

You call it God's work, I call it being bored and reminiscent of the times when the biggest feuds here were about a clone and a kill confirms legitimacy, rather than whether a character should be banned or not. But thanks for the appreciation anyways

It'll take quite a while to get anywhere with it due to the amount of posts to go through, me only doing it when I'm bored and/or tired and depending on my interest of what topics I'm going through. Like my first time rooting through, I only got to about post 90. Second time was post 190 and the most recent was 493 simply because it was fun to go through all of the hype and speculation of Bayo and Corrin's release again. That's why I'm not looking forward to the bigger debates like Pika and Marcina. My progress might slow to a crawl when I get to those points. Actually planning on saving those debates in their entirety whenever I get to them.

This project of mine would go by so much faster if saving posts on mobile was more convenient since I get so much free time at work on breaks. Dah well~

 

[Skeeter Mania]

But he also is not good at the ditto

How? What exactly is his record? Why are you criticizing top players again??

 

[Minordeth]

How?

Because he is. I've said before that Salem relies too heavily on a smoke and mirrors gameplan. He relies on his opponents not knowing what to do, and often, and he capitalizes on that. He has implied that other top players don't do/know certain things that would make their lives easier. He likes mixing up gimmicks with hard tactical play.

What do you think happens when he plays people that know his character inside and out?

Other top Bayos have pointed this out as well. Salem has said he doesn't like the ditto.

That's as much as I'll expand on, because these drive by posts of yours are only as useful as I can share info for other players.

What exactly is his record?

A quick rundown of the last year for top players in the ditto:

Zack
SCR Saga – Captain Zack 3-1

Lima
They haven't met in bracket this year, afaik

Mistake
G5 – Mistake 3-0
SSC2017 – Mistake 3-0
SCR – Mistake 3-2, Salem's Greninja won 2 games

Tweek
Frostbite 2018 Tweek 3-1

Abadango goes Mewtwo now, because why not?

So yeah, he's 0-5 for the ditto with other top players and 4-15 in games.

Why are you criticizing top players again??

Bruh.

 

[TDK]

How? What exactly is his record? Why are you criticizing top players again??

Stop posting. Seriously. What do you actually hope to add to a discussion with any of your posts? They're all just trying to invalidate other people's posts by calling them an "opinion, m8", especially right after we explain what we mean to you even though we just did it, or saying we shouldn't criticize top players while offering no alternative. You've done absolutely nothing meaningful and just give everyone else a headache.


I'll gladly accept a warning for this post.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I hate to say it but I agree with TDK.
It's like you feel that top players shouldn't be criticised at all when that's the entire purpose of this board and thread. You ask questions and then are clueless at the explanations. And any criticism whether constructive or otherwise is dismissed as opinion. On top of that every time this is pointed out to you you try to say it's not exactly like that when it is. It's a migraine.
Even I was able to follow some of the explanations when they were given and i'm one of the most clueless posters in this thread!

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sheik's best stage is not Smashville.
No Sheik player will tell you otherwise.

 

[NairWizard]

So, this is going to be my last post on the CCI thread.

Sadly, I don't have anything good to contribute, no massive grand post or anything like you're used to.

I was gonna go back through and talk about all of the opinions that I've had over the years and how they've held up over time, but looks like Krysco's got that covered, so instead you just get this.

This is mostly a throwaway post and adds no value to the topic but this is the only thread in smashboards that I've ever really posted in since I joined, so I want to give a special thank you to the following people (and others whom I've missed, I can't even call you out Gheb because of your new username):

@Shaya @Radical Larry @Thinkaman @Lavani @san. @Djent TDK @Luco @Vyrnx @Dabuz @Emblem Lord
@Das Koopa @Kofu @Berserker. @A2ZOMG Locke 06 and others who've been cool and added real value to the thread over the years, I'm sure I'm forgetting tons of people

y'all are good folks, keep at it

p.s. pikachu is still secretly top tier guys, just give it another 40 years or so

 

[Rizen]

Sheik's best stage is not Smashville.
No Sheik player will tell you otherwise.

So FD? Sheik has a good ground camping game with needles, can ledge trap hard and extend Fair chains there (correct me if I'm wrong).


In competitive pokemon commentators talk about "win conditions" it's called rockslide. What that means is a way to win a game even when it's not going well. Like timing out the opponent for example. Smash is more direct but win conditions do apply, the most obvious being Bayo's WTi. The Link player T goes for win conditions that seem reckless, tbh they often are, in the form of hard read grabs or power attacks. If Link's fighting Sheik he can play a losing neutral game or Fsmash kill at 70-80%. For these gambits to work you have to not be predictable ie not fish for kills. Solid, safe play can be enhanced by a second of strategic recklessness in ssb4 and you see pros do it, like Ally's Mario Usmashes. If you can kill early, why not pivot Fsmash or landing read Usmash?

Not all win conditions are hard reads. Bowser and DK have a great wc with grab combos, Diddy has bananas and Dtilt. WCs vary with different characters. Wario's is playing keep away while his fart builds up. I think a key to victory that seporates top players from mid level players is recognizing WCs and more importantly distinguishing them from fishing.

 

[Minordeth]

AWWWRRRIIIGHT, that article RK wrote has me torn. On the one hand, it's well written and even-handed. On the other, I have some thoughts... maybe disagreements. I dunno.

Right off the bat, I want to get out of the way something fundamental to all this:

In anything competitive, the onus of responsibility to learn is on the person who wants to compete (or watch).
​

The main thing that RK identifies that frustrates the three audiences is a lack of understanding of Bayo. Bayo wouldn't have this much intensity of focus on her, if she was more understood.

So why isn't she more understood, more than a year and a half from 1.1.6? I think the culpability for where we are is a little complicated, though, but can be boiled down to a few things:

The Blame Game​

Rules: In the Blame Game, blame gets passed around like your grandma's best casserole at a church potluck. But just like not everyone gets the same amount of that casserole love (Sorry, Janelle), not everyone gets the same amount of blame. Imma throw out percentages like I'm serving up pieces.

Here we go:


1.) The devs.

Why the devs? They ultimately compounded all misunderstanding by not releasing patch notes, then releasing a nerf patch quickly after releasing a another patch after releasing a new character, which drastically changes that character.

They are also largely to blame for a lot of key mechanics staying obfuscated in the background. Like Rage. Why do we have to play the DaVinci Code every single time Nintendo "improves our enjoyment"?

Blame: 40%.​

2.) Uncommonly Specific Counterplay

Fortunately, or unfortunately, the devs crystallized Bayo combo counterplay in patch 1.1.6 to be SDI. The Witch Twist SDI multiplier increase was the icing on the cake. Now, SDI has always been present in Smash 4, but it hadn't been thought to be super useful. Until Bayo. Now "How to SDI" is all over the place. Now players try it on things that don't have 2.0 multipliers, like Diddy's Usmash, or one day, Pika's Fair chains.

SDI was uncommon, though, and it takes just as much learning as DI, so the community had to play catch up.

But uncommon counterplay for anything in the community is inconsistent. Tumble knowledge for dealing with Luma is still not widespread, Boost kick DI is still misunderstood, etc.

But this kinda ultimatley goes back to #1, doesn't it? And even if it's uncommon, it's still knowable.

Blame: 10%​

3.) Misinformation from commentators.

It doesn't help that commentators and top players reflexively looked (and still look) at Bayo stuff as unavoidable. I love that Smash has grassroots commentary, and it's often a thankless job. But, if you are a commentator, you owe it to your audience to know the game as you are the first voice that Audience 3 hears, and the voice that reaches well into Audience 2.

Commentators in Smash generally make two mistakes again and again:

3a.) They talk like they know.

- If you don't know how Shulk works, or say, that SDI doesn't have anything to do with Boost Kick, or don't know optimal DI for something, maybe talk about something else.

3b.) They tend toward hype and praise

- Top players make mistakes. When they play each other, it's not necessary for you to pitch it as a battle of equally skilled opponents making calculated counterplay against each other. Sometimes, they DI poorly, or whiff a punish, or sit in shield at the ledge for no reason. And sometimes, they could have done something better.

This applies more and more to Bayo, as the narrative becomes that despite a players best efforts, Bayo just gonna Bayo. It's a missed opportunity for wider understanding among more casual audiences.

- SF5 commentary, for instance, readily points out when their top players drop combos, or whiff, or put themselves in bad situations. That can be hype by itself.

Audience 3 (and occasionally Audience 2) rely on our commentary. NFL commentators make the game just engaging enough for everyone at a Superbowl Party, who actually don't care about the Foosball and eat all your buffalo chicken dip, to have some understanding.

We can't pay those salaries, but we can expect just a little more.

Blame (as a whole): 10%

Blame (for audience 3): 150%​

4. Misinformation from top players (and content creators).

Same rules here as for the commentators. Here's a simple checklist for any given subject for this group: Do you have an audience? Do you know what you are talking about?

If you can't check both those off as "Yes", then don't say anything until you do. For better or worse, for pretty much every audience, you are an authority on the game. You are part of the community, as well. You are an influencer and people take their cues from you. The amount of kneejerk reactionism from top players (and content creators) is mind boggling.

Here is just a little misinformation that derives from top player and content creator opinion that takes far longer to correct:

"Bayonetta can control the direction she goes after Bat Within."

"Bayonetta can cancel all her lag with Bullet Climax."

"SDI/DI doesn't matter because she can just follow it and kill you anyway."

"Ryu is top 10."

Blame: ZeRo% (15%)​

5. Bayo Players themselves
Bayo dropped off in usage when she got nerfed and an already maligned community got pretty insular as they labbed her back to recovery. Now, the main issue here is that some of them spoke before they knew as well. Not every main knows everything about their character.

For instance, Tweek is pretty knowledgeable, but he thinks Dtilt is busted because it's so safe, when in reality, it only confirms into something at an unsafe range.

Some have also been flippant with angry audiences because they enjoy playing the heel and trolling.

Ultimately, though, as a community, they have been more than willing to help. Captain Zack, Pink Fresh, Myollnir, Riot, Lima, and Mistake have been active in trying to spread knowledge. I'm sure most of them actually want you to enjoy watching Bayo, too.

Blame: 5%
​

6. The Smash Community at Large
The Smash community is not like many others in the FGC. It's been a grassroots movement since day 1, with no parent company support. It's also one of the most popular fighting games in the world. Go figure. It's been a gateway for many into the FGC as a whole.

Many things other FG players take for granted, we have had to improvise. Like getting patch notes, or having a functioning training mode. Or understanding tiers.

We also have had to grow into some things, like playing to win, understanding frame data, and widely adopting the more stark "adapt or lose" mindset that is intrinsic to other communities, like the anime fighters, or Tekken, or SF. Melee is farther along because it's quite a bit older, and it's top players are also generally older as well.

I'll admit, "Just SDI" is Smash 4's glib version of "Git Gud." It's both useless and yet contains some truth. As a community, we seem to tend to want easy answers. We have a very playable game, where accessibility belies the actual complexity underneath. It's a game that's been one of "who can use their 3 or 4 overpowered tools to get their win condition the fastest." But ultimately, as the game got older, and introduced Bayo (and Cloud), the meta drastically changed.

Suddenly, a roster of characters that seemed viable, seemingly got narrowed down. In the face of some clearly powerful characters, how good is your character really? How good are you at the game that is underneath the surface?

Bayo is frustrating because to beat her, you need to punish things that are seemingly esoteric and without easy answers. How good is your character at catching landings? Forget tools, how powerful are their frame traps? How good is their ledge game?

Faced with a sudden increase in difficulty, and a swirl of misinformation, people got angry.

...

To a large degree, the Smash 4 community has failed to to talk to each other - about the game. It's only been recently that you have publically seen top players of different characters labbing or discussing things together, and it's largely Bayo centric.

I'll never forget watching Nairo's stream, and Zero came on and was repeatedly asking Nairo how to DI Boost Kick. This was last year.

To some degree, Discord has ironically isolated all our communities into little islands. But the information is out there and has been out there. Myollnir posted his guide last year. Zinoto and Blank have had comprehensive guides out for more than a year.

It's telling that the first thing Zinoto went into was how to play neutral against Bayo, and emphasized that SDI wasn't even the most important thing. It's also indicative of both the pro-Bayo and anti-Bayo side that the summation of counterplay to this character is a meme in the form of "Just SDI."

Blame: The rest of it.
​

Finally:

I've seen more evolution in play in our tournaments in the last year than the rest of the meta time combined. Top players are actually labbing things out together across characters. Bayo players and some non-Bayo players are sharing in-depth information on how to actually play against this character. Riot just posted succinct notes on Bayo SDI/DI for ease of use.

In an ironic way, this ban talk is accelerating the spread of counterplay and knowledge. Our meta is actually being pushed in real time. I just wish it didn't take such overwhelming toxicity to necessitate it.

 

[Finh009]

Sumabato 23 (158 Entrants) (Osaka, Japan)
Bracket: http://challonge.com/Sumabato23T/standings


1st. Raito
2nd. DIO
3rd. Shogun
4th. Kome
5th. Masashi
5th. Towa
7th. 2GG | Komorikiri
7th. HIKARU

Spoiler: Rest of Top 16

9th. Deumo
9th. Mangalitza
9th. takera
9th. Tatsutsuyo
13th. Compact
13th. kept
13th. Kie
13th. Tea

Raito won the whole tournament without dropping a single game.

 

[Myollnir]

And again, little to no Bayonetta player in top 16 at a japanese tournament, the first one getting 33rd.

"But there was no good Bayonetta main at the tournament" : I shouldn't even have to explain that if a character is dominating, such a sentence doesn't exist. I sometimes wonder if you've ever played another game competitively.

There are (a lot of) players that want to ban something solely because they don't like it, and that's a problem if you wanna consider yourself as a competitive player / community.

Anyways I guess if something happens outside of the US, it doesn't count right? :^)

 

[ARGHETH]

And again, little to no Bayonetta player in top 16 at a japanese tournament, the first one getting 33rd.

"But there was no good Bayonetta main at the tournament" : I shouldn't even have to explain that if a character is dominating, such a sentence doesn't exist. I sometimes wonder if you've ever played another game competitively.

There are (a lot of) players that want to ban something solely because they don't like it, and that's a problem if you wanna consider yourself as a competitive player / community.

Anyways I guess if something happens outside of the US, it doesn't count right? :^)

Because fighting bad arguments with strawmen is totally the way to go.

 

[Minordeth]

So the 2GG poll is over.

So we been thinking

Do you really want us to host an event with these adjustments?

Follow, Retweet and like to show it’s not just a vocal minority and we will heavily consider it 🤔

— 2GG (@2GGaming) February 15, 2018

Now, I suppose an easy takeaway is that the winner of the poll is the "no Bayo in singles."

But, that's not really what the poll is saying, and I hope 2GG realizes what their results actually say. Here is some context:

- That poll was made during and slightly following a maelstrom of Bayo ban talk reached a fever pitch on social media.

- It includes no neutral option. In other words, there is no "I think the game is fine as is."

With that context, yes, 32% of the votes went to "No Bayo in singles." But that means that 68% of the votes did not vote for "No Bayo in singles."

2GG wanted to see if the Bayo backlash was a vocal minority or something more significant. What it got was a 1/3 minority wanted to see an event where Bayo was not present in singles. Their poll presented a literal vocal minority specifically focused on Bayo.

What's interesting is that Mr. E ran a poll himself that was a simple "Ban or no Ban" poll for Bayo, and it split roughly the same.

 

[jet56]

The best thing to do for the smash community as a whole is develop counterplay rather than look for bans. That's the short of it. But honestly i have been looking at this in a different light, after broadening my horizions and playing other fighting games (DBFZ, Melee, SFV, Tekken, and so on), and found something interesting.

Pretty much all of these games had more emphasis on reaction over prediction, at least in my personal experience.

So i wanted to ask: does smash 4 reward prediction or reaction more, and which one would be the bigger emphasis if any? Do you think part of the reason some characters are top tier and some aren't is because of this dynamic in smash 4?

 

[Nobie]

The more I think about "ban vs. no ban," the more I find the notion of banning because Bayo makes players and spectators essentially feel bad or bored to be the not the best idea. It's not because the arguments are often subjective (she's boring/I no longer have fun playing because of her/etc); I understand the importance of those feelings. The real problem is that the audience can be extremely fickle, and a hero one day can become a villain just because of the tide of public opinion.

Lucario is "unfair" and "goes against the essence of fighting games" until he's piloted by a hype player like Tsu.
Timeouts are the devil, until they're used against Sonic. Then they're sweet irony.
Dabuz is a "hype killer," until he's slaying Bayonetta.

It's clear why people would think these things, because there is a general desire to want to be entertained or stimulated whether as spectator or player, but if feelings and public opinion dominated Smash 4 all along, then Sonic players would have been forced off their characters a long time ago. They're not the same character by any means, and Bayo is even one of the reasons Sonics have been faltering, but it's notable to me that "ignores neutral" is the argument used against both characters when neither is really true; neutral just works differently against them.

Twitch numbers are smaller, and Bayonetta is making life harder for newer players in some scenes, influencing players' decisions to quit. On some level, these things can be quantified more easily, even if the first thing has multiple factors to consider. The reason data is important is because it can show clear, solid indicators as to where problems might be--like whether or not Bayo is dominating top 16s, or forcing other people off their characters and onto Bayo. There is an argument to be made for banning Bayo that involves both people's poor opinion of her and the data, but it's important to not get swept up by a sense of online mob justice that could change its mind in a week.

I've seen comments on reddit and twitter and such that have stated how Fox in Melee is the ideal top tier, and that Bayonetta being the best is equivalent to Ice Climbers and Jigglypuff (or Ice Climbers and Jigglypuff combined!) being the strongest in that game--a nightmare scenario for many because of how "boring" they are, and how they take away from what makes the game "special." At the same time, I've read stories about local players being discouraged from using Jigglypuff or Ice Climbers in Melee through peer pressure. This is not a problem with the characters, but a problem with how we watch and engage with the games, in my opinion. If we're so susceptible to the serendipity of an audience or player base that just chases hype, then we'll be looking over our shoulders for the banhammer every time some player decides they don't care about hype and uses the "wrong" character or strategy.

 

[Krysco]

How? What exactly is his record? Why are you criticizing top players again??

First off, to attempt yet again to explain why criticizing better players is fine even though many others have done it before, here's an analogy that hopefully works. Say you go to a restaurant and you have some world renowned chef make you a meal. The meal is really good but you find that he added a bit too much salt. Others go to the same restaurant and get the same meal by the same chef and get the same issue. So it's not just you and your personal tastes. Do you believe it'd be wrong of you to inform the chef of this issue even though he's world renowned and you're not? Comparing this to Smash, the chef is equal to the top players, the salt is any mistake a player makes that can be worked on (think ZeRo and his Monkey Flip habits even though he has retired). You can compare the meal to a competitive match, you're taking in both of them, one through your taste buds and the other through your eyes. Maybe not the best but that's the first thing that came to mind.

Second off, you've had this explained to you before and yet you insist on asking it time and again. Do you forget that you've asked before and gotten answered before? If you genuinely have that poor of a memory or amnesia or something then the most I can say to that is that I'm sorry for you. Not meaning any offense or sarcasm with that, being genuine. If it's not bad memory then are you simply hoping for a different answer? If so, you're likely not going to find one. There's a lot of regulars here who see your posts, answer them, and you do little to nothing to change their opinions on it so when you ask again, it's seen as largely pointless to most people here. If it's just a joke as I believe you've claimed the 'Opinion, m8' comments are then people here don't seem to find it funny and actually find it annoying too. If you're trolling then well congrats, you're doing a good job of it.

You're free of course to continue believing that top players shouldn't be criticized, but asking why others do when they've told you why countless times is just going to cause more issues. Not my job to tell you what you can or can't say obviously, I'm an advocate for people discussing anything that's within the green or yellow rules after all, even the less popular topics like customs but I'm just trying to provide some advice.

---

With my reply to Skeeter out of the way, I'm gonna see about delving back into the V1 again so people here can either expect a post from me with my findings or an edit to this post if no one else replies. And while this is a long ways away, I'm gonna ask a request for anyone willing, I'm not creative at all so when the time comes for me to make some sort of thread with my findings, does anyone have an idea of what I could title it? Only thing that comes to mind is it being a thread made by a CCI poster for the convenience of other CCI posters so something with Mania to reference Sonic Mania or maybe just CCI Compendium if I'm even using that word correctly. Having it be eye catching for anyone who's new and wants to read whatever juicy bits of info that have been shared would be helpful. It won't come into use for a long while anyways due to how big the V1 is. Good news is that the V2 and V3 are much shorter so the worst of it is over once I get through the V1 and with it being so big, there's bound to be a lot of info to share right off the bat with the thread. All I've really seen so far is people's opinions on the tier list and people's hype and speculation towards Bayo and Corrin since they came out like right after the V1 was released.

And one last comment on Skeeter, if he continues to ignore the answers he's given and continues to ask the same questions over and over, it's probably best to just ignore him, even if that means ignoring a potentially insightful post he makes. And I don't just mean press the ignore button, that's an option certainly but for me, my way of ignoring posters I don't care for is the moment I see their avatar (or if it's an avatar I haven't seen before, I look at the username) I just keep scrolling.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Randomly decided to look and see what each character's fastest out-of-shield option was and compare them. Thought I'd share my results. Listed times aren't necessarily the frame numbers of the move, just the first frame you can do them out of shield (no change for grab and Up-B, +1 for Up-Smash, +jumpsquat for aerials, +7 for ground moves). is listed twice because his fastest move varies based on whether customs are allowed (Piston Punch).

Spoiler

Frame 3:
: Up-B
Frame 4:
: Up-B
Frame 5:
: Up-B
Frame 6:
: Grab
: Up-B
: Grab/Up-B
: Grab/Up-smash
Frame 7:
: Grab
: Up-smash
: Grab/Up-B
Frame 8:
: Grab
: Up-B
: Up-smash
: Nair
: Grab/Up-smash
Frame 9:
: Up-B
: Nair
: Bair
: Jab
Frame 10:
: Grab

 

[TheWill44]

Sumabato 23 (158 Entrants) (Osaka, Japan)
Bracket: http://challonge.com/Sumabato23T/standings


1st. Raito
2nd. DIO
3rd. Shogun
4th. Kome
5th. Masashi
5th. Towa
7th. 2GG | Komorikiri
7th. HIKARU

Spoiler: Rest of Top 16

9th. Deumo
9th. Mangalitza
9th. takera
9th. Tatsutsuyo
13th. Compact
13th. kept
13th. Kie
13th. Tea

Raito won the whole tournament without dropping a single game.

Dang! Good job Raito!

 

[The_Bookworm]

So the 2GG poll is over.

So we been thinking

Do you really want us to host an event with these adjustments?

Follow, Retweet and like to show it’s not just a vocal minority and we will heavily consider it 🤔

— 2GG (@2GGaming) February 15, 2018

Now, I suppose an easy takeaway is that the winner of the poll is the "no Bayo in singles."

But, that's not really what the poll is saying, and I hope 2GG realizes what their results actually say. Here is some context:

- That poll was made during and slightly following a maelstrom of Bayo ban talk reached a fever pitch on social media.

- It includes no neutral option. In other words, there is no "I think the game is fine as is."

With that context, yes, 32% of the votes went to "No Bayo in singles." But that means that 68% of the votes did not vote for "No Bayo in singles."

2GG wanted to see if the Bayo backlash was a vocal minority or something more significant. What it got was a 1/3 minority wanted to see an event where Bayo was not present in singles. Their poll presented a literal vocal minority specifically focused on Bayo.

What's interesting is that Mr. E ran a poll himself that was a simple "Ban or no Ban" poll for Bayo, and it split roughly the same.

The poll shouldn't have been taken in the first place, especially considering that maelstrom of Bayo anger from Frostbite, and RHS and ESAM renewing their videos on how to escape Bayo combos. Again, professionals are not happy with this poll.

From ESAM's video, he pinned this comment that I found interesting.

D A 21 hours ago (edited)
I think fighting Bayo can help low/mid level players. Those with the motivation to learn the matchup will develop skills and habits applicable against so many other characters. 1. You learn SDI, which is a technique you can use against many other characters in the game.
2. You learn how to condition defensive reactions from your opponents & you develop patience against opponents Simply by conditioning Bayo to witch time you've learned how to create pressure and opportunities to punish your opponents.
Those with the determination to improve can learn a lot from fighting Bayo, however many people will crack and crumble because of their own inability to adapt.

imESAM 21 hours ago
That's....a really good point actually

 

[The_Bookworm]

Sumabato 23 (158 Entrants) (Osaka, Japan)
Bracket: http://challonge.com/Sumabato23T/standings


1st. Raito
2nd. DIO
3rd. Shogun
4th. Kome
5th. Masashi
5th. Towa
7th. 2GG | Komorikiri
7th. HIKARU

Spoiler: Rest of Top 16

9th. Deumo
9th. Mangalitza
9th. takera
9th. Tatsutsuyo
13th. Compact
13th. kept
13th. Kie
13th. Tea

Raito won the whole tournament without dropping a single game.

Raito Lucina?

 

[Lukingordex]

Sumabato 23 (158 Entrants) (Osaka, Japan)
Bracket: http://challonge.com/Sumabato23T/standings


1st. Raito
2nd. DIO
3rd. Shogun
4th. Kome
5th. Masashi
5th. Towa
7th. 2GG | Komorikiri
7th. HIKARU

Spoiler: Rest of Top 16

9th. Deumo
9th. Mangalitza
9th. takera
9th. Tatsutsuyo
13th. Compact
13th. kept
13th. Kie
13th. Tea

Raito won the whole tournament without dropping a single game.

Did DIO use Yoshi a lot? Or just for a few games?

 

[Frihetsanka]

With that context, yes, 32% of the votes went to "No Bayo in singles." But that means that 68% of the votes did not vote for "No Bayo in singles."

25% voted for "No Cloud in doubles". Cloud is easily more dominant in doubles than Bayonetta is in singles, although it is reasonable to assume that some of those who voted for that would pick "No Bayo in singles" as a secondary option.

Some people probably voted for "Palu + Mii Customs" because they would like to see that, while also supporting a tournament without Bayo and/or Cloud. While it's true that 68% of the voters didn't primarily choose "No Bayo in singles", you can't say for sure that 68% wouldn't support it. Perhaps a good amount of the voters would support a Bayo-less tournament anyway. I would (as a test run), even though I'm currently anti-ban. Such a tournament wouldn't count for the PGR, of course, since that would be unfair for Bayonetta players.

What it got was a 1/3 minority wanted to see an event where Bayo was not present in singles.

By this logic, only 1/4 want to see an event without Cloud in doubles, and I'm pretty sure more people than that would like to see doubles without Cloud. We also need to keep in mind that this is just regarding one tournament, having one tournament without Bayo is different from outright banning Bayo. In my opinion, they should try running a tournament without Bayo or double Cloud (and why not throw in Miis with customs and custom Palutena, it's unlikely to change much and might make pools/top 32 a bit more interesting) to see what happens (price pot but no PGR rank, some PGR players will likely attend anyway, such as potentially ANTi).

Regarding the topic of a Bayonetta ban, I'd like to discuss that but not in this thread. It'd be nice to have a thread specifically for Bayonetta legality discussion (*wink wink nudge nudge*).

Sumabato 23 (158 Entrants) (Osaka, Japan)

Do you know how much Hikaru used his secondaries?

 

[|RK|]

As much as I appreciate the discussion, remember that this is not the place to discuss ban vs no ban arguments. There are plenty of other places to do so.

Since it's difficult to pretend the topic doesn't exist, it's fine to bring it up in the context of broader meta discussion. But it shouldn't be the subject of entire posts.

I'm tempted to allow a thread for the discussion, but I'm hoping that much of the anger is dying down elsewhere (finally). I don't want to exacerbate anything - despite Smashboards's comparatively limited influence on the discussion at large.

Yet, I know that many of you come here for the discussions you can't have elsewhere. So again, as long as we can overall keep the thread on topic, we're good. Further, the usual rules will apply.

 

[Minordeth]

25% voted for "No Cloud in doubles". Cloud is easily more dominant in doubles than Bayonetta is in singles, although it is reasonable to assume that some of those who voted for that would pick "No Bayo in singles" as a secondary option.

Some people probably voted for "Palu + Mii Customs" because they would like to see that, while also supporting a tournament without Bayo and/or Cloud. While it's true that 68% of the voters didn't primarily choose "No Bayo in singles", you can't say for sure that 68% wouldn't support it. Perhaps a good amount of the voters would support a Bayo-less tournament anyway. I would (as a test run), even though I'm currently anti-ban. Such a tournament wouldn't count for the PGR, of course, since that would be unfair for Bayonetta players.

Oh, oh, dude, I know. The poll is just massively, massively flawed. Like, a long time ago, I worked on actual (small) polls that actual people used.

I’m not making any kind of value judgment other than what is literally on the poll.

2GG wanted to test a hypothesis: that the cries for a tourney with any of the above were a small, vocal minority. For it to be true that it was actually a vocal majority, any of the above options would have needed >50% by themselves.

Even with a Ban Bayo zeitgeist, and skewed options, that particular option wasn’t even in range.

By this logic, only 1/4 want to see an event without Cloud in doubles, and I'm pretty sure more people than that would like to see doubles without Cloud. We also need to keep in mind that this is just regarding one tournament, having one tournament without Bayo is different from outright banning Bayo. In my opinion, they should try running a tournament without Bayo or double Cloud (and why not throw in Miis with customs and custom Palutena, it's unlikely to change much and might make pools/top 32 a bit more interesting) to see what happens (price pot but no PGR rank, some PGR players will likely attend anyway, such as potentially ANTi).

I’m... mixed on a venue as big as 2GG sponsoring something like that. But whatevs.


Edit: speaking of 2GG: Has anyone else noticed some of the differences between the Socal Foxes (Larry, CDK) and the newer East Coast Foxes (Light, Odyssey)? I’ve noticed some things, but I’m not a Fox main, and was looking to see if any mains here picked up some regional differences.

 

[Heracr055]

I would be so discouraged if such a small minority of whiny players/viewers were responsible for a Bayo ban. I would probably quit this game if she got banned. The exception being if there were a discovery where it becomes impossible for her to lose any MU. Which is not the case as of now or since pre-patch.

And yes, that poll with no "leave as is" option is dumb.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Krysco

I've got "Flashbacks", "Memories", "Yearbook", and "Time Capsules".

-

jet56

It depends. I'd say both are necessary but one does not out-weigh the other (one is not more important than the other). I would say our scene is leaning towards reads since that is what has been popularized and has been proven successful from my point of view.

I wrote a long post but cut out most of it since I've been doing that a-lot lately. I think my long posts confuses more than they help sometimes. Also it was a re-hash of my post from Page 60 with some new examples thrown. I saved it elsewhere in-case you want me to post it.

I'll leave one part of it below.

If you were to look at casual smash gameplay or other FGC games (usually low rank Wi-Fi matches or in pools of an offline tournament), when players are in a panic they will usually default to a Smash Attack or their game's version of a super move (can commonly be referred to as a clutch win). At times, this strategy may seem like it works because the other party did not expect it to happen or they buffered an attack of some sort that left them defenseless. The next time a player goes for this desperation attempt, you will be expecting it. You will then block the move accordingly before the move even comes out since you have seen this tactic before.

Even though I started off saying that this was a casual or low-level strategy, players can and will still fall for this at all levels of play from time to time. Especially players who thought better of their opponent.

 

[Deleted member]

Dang, this thread got very spicy when I was gone.

Stop posting. Seriously. What do you actually hope to add to a discussion with any of your posts? They're all just trying to invalidate other people's posts by calling them an "opinion, m8", especially right after we explain what we mean to you even though we just did it, or saying we shouldn't criticize top players while offering no alternative. You've done absolutely nothing meaningful and just give everyone else a headache.


I'll gladly accept a warning for this post.

Just ignore him, he is going to hit a wall over and over again to not let us breathe. I am beginning to think he is trying to be a troll at this point, and it is bothering me.

So, this is going to be my last post on the CCI thread.

Sadly, I don't have anything good to contribute, no massive grand post or anything like you're used to.

I was gonna go back through and talk about all of the opinions that I've had over the years and how they've held up over time, but looks like Krysco's got that covered, so instead you just get this.

This is mostly a throwaway post and adds no value to the topic but this is the only thread in smashboards that I've ever really posted in since I joined, so I want to give a special thank you to the following people (and others whom I've missed, I can't even call you out Gheb because of your new username):

@Shaya @Radical Larry @Thinkaman @Lavani @san. @Djent TDK @Luco @Vyrnx @Dabuz @Emblem Lord
@Das Koopa @Kofu @Berserker. @A2ZOMG Locke 06 and others who've been cool and added real value to the thread over the years, I'm sure I'm forgetting tons of people

y'all are good folks, keep at it

p.s. pikachu is still secretly top tier guys, just give it another 40 years or so

Thanks SolidSense!
Honestly, if most of these users came back than the thread would shine up again. Dabuz would be nice, as he can teach us about Rosalina and how he feels against Bayonetta truly to us. Too bad he prefers to focus on Twitter. The reason why he wants to focus on Twitter is because he would prefer to focus more on the larger, slightly more casual audience than us who usually post detailed information which is not viewed. I could go Twitter as well, but I personally like posting competitive information more here. This feels more like a peaceful yet calm and collected area than big social media places like Twitter. I like being calm and collected to myself, alone in my bedroom. The ones that I hope will post more often here are @Shaya, @Emblem Lord, @Das Koopa, @Dabuz and @Thinkaman . Too bad they are either busy on another thread or just inactive. I may be new in this analysis compared to the users who have been there since the first page of the first tier list competitive analysis thread, but it has been a nice ride. It seems like the discussion is facing toward Bayonetta and Sheik's preferred stage. I truly am lacking a good social life, but I will always enjoy all of the good posts made by you users.

Sheik's best stage is not Smashville.
No Sheik player will tell you otherwise.

I agree. Sheik's best stage is not Smashville in my opinion, rather Final Destination. Sheik just does so much better in horizontal mobility in FD where no one can camp in the ledge. Sheik especially does really good against Cloud in Final Destination, better than Smashville. I seen some players in Frostbite 2018 use FD as a Sheik stage to rack up the combos. Sheik can wall jump in Final Destination I think so that helps her recovery. Thoughts?

 

[Locke 06]

So, this is going to be my last post on the CCI thread.

Sadly, I don't have anything good to contribute, no massive grand post or anything like you're used to.

I was gonna go back through and talk about all of the opinions that I've had over the years and how they've held up over time, but looks like Krysco's got that covered, so instead you just get this.

This is mostly a throwaway post and adds no value to the topic but this is the only thread in smashboards that I've ever really posted in since I joined, so I want to give a special thank you to the following people (and others whom I've missed, I can't even call you out Gheb because of your new username):

and others who've been cool and added real value to the thread over the years, I'm sure I'm forgetting tons of people

y'all are good folks, keep at it

p.s. pikachu is still secretly top tier guys, just give it another 40 years or so

Fite me.

Also, I'm convinced pika is high mid tier unless the fast faller 0-deaths are consistent. Avoid early deaths off of fair strings, jab locks, and DI uthrow thunder correctly, and you'll live.

Before you go, what do you feel pika can/should do vs platforming camping? Watching L get camped for the last 3 months by zss/Bayo/Pacman where all he gets is maybe an up air (same damage as Macs) has soured my opinion of the otherwise very strong character's neutral.

 

[Megamang]

I don't understand people that don't sdi. Do you just watch yourself get beaten across the stage and twiddle your thumbs? It's supremely useful in tons of MUs. Shiek and bayo it will reduce your damage a ton. On precise combo characters it can land you in a sourspot, saving your stock. On cloud it can reduce the uairs you take. It's masssssive against Ryu, few can react to a single utilt and with good sdi they probably have to guess and you just won't get utilt daired at the ledge.


Mk, Diddy, it will also save your butt frequently.


...

Megamans rush might be fast, but it isn't invincible immediately so it is no spring as far as escape goes. Being able to land on it and get stuff back makes it pretty good for offense. You can go back out to get bairs, follow people up to hit uairs, leaf shield and land on it to escape disadvantage... Save teammates! Save yourself from straight down spikes!


Zdrop metal blade at the ledge is damn good, and rolling is just scary vs shoryu. I'm getting more optimistic about megaman frequently, Diddy isn't getting better but marth, shiek, Greninja, CF, Rosa to an extent, all the heaviest, are all suspect to a secondary megaman.


I really like SH dair with Mewtwo. Scary, big hitbox, damaging... Auto cancels.


..


Remember how Luigi has his forward facing fair pressure over Mario? Bowser has that over DK, fair is huge and damaging and autocancels. And the reverse hit can lead to bair. Bar is also amazing, deadly punish that is obscenely fast and also auto cancels. When someone said he doesn't have good auto cancels I was surprised anyone didn't know. His ledge trapping is scary too, probably better than DK and his two frames certainly are. His grab confirms are more damaging. Surprise surprise, Sdi is supremely useful here. Both have sick jabs and learning to do a walking jab is invaluable. Good stuff. Dtilt is also great, high damage for early hits or late kills or obliterating a shield. Dks might be better here though

 

[Yonder]

Raito Lucina?

I saw him pop out Lucina vs Cloud in the 2nd match. Messed up Cloud the first stock with a nice gimp, but otherwise looked like a meh Lucina and it went back to last stock last hit.

He didnt need to use Lucina anyways imo since he won with DH first game, but I guess he just doesn't like the mu.

 

[TheWill44]

I think the poll was done the wrong way. It should’ve been in four separate polls with the four options listed with Yes or No. The way the polls were done (without the “leave it” setting) were poorly executed and assume that 100 people answer the survey. 49 choose “ban double cloud” and another 49 people choose “Mii customs”, and 2 people choose “ban Bayo”. People who don’t want 2xCloud or Mii customs can say “HAHA U MINORITY SO NO BAN/CUSTOMS 4 U!”

tl:dr - The poll should be done in a Yes or No manner on each topic seperately.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I would be so discouraged if such a small minority of whiny players/viewers were responsible for a Bayo ban. I would probably quit this game if she got banned. The exception being if there were a discovery where it becomes impossible for her to lose any MU. Which is not the case as of now or since pre-patch.

And yes, that poll with no "leave as is" option is dumb.

It would be very discouraging for myself as well.
On a unrelated note, can you give me the link to your profile pic?



Anyways, turns out, Sumabato 23 IS part of the season (PG loves their Japan tournaments, don't they). Therefore, here is a little update.

An Update on the PGR v5. 2/17/18

C-Tier
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (1st: KEN) (2nd: Nietono) (3rd: Choco)
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (1st: Kirihara) (2nd: Rizeasu) (3rd: Ron)
Noods Noods Noods: Melee Edition (1st: falln) (2nd: Elegant) (3rd: Eon)
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (1st: MkLeo) (2nd: Shuton) (3rd: shky)
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (1st: Shu) (2nd: Zackray) (3rd: Tsu-)
Sumabato 23 (1st: Raito) (2nd: DIO) (3rd: Shotgun)
King of the Springs 3 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Full Bloom 4 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Collision XV (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)

B-tier
Umebura T.A.T. (1st: KEN) (2nd: Choco) (3rd: Nietono)
EVO Japan 2018 (1st: MKLeo) (2nd: Abadango) (3rd: Kameme)
Niconico Tokaigi 2018 (1st: Nairo) (2nd: MKLeo) (3rd: KEN)

A-Tier
Genesis 5 (1st: MKLeo) (2nd: Mistake) (3rd: Salem)
Frostbite 2018 (1st: Dabuz) (2nd: Tweek) (3rd: Mistake)

Our next big event so far is GOML 2018 at May. In the meantime, we have a bunch of C-tiers for February and March so far.

Do you guys think I should post this in a completely fresh thread for the purpose of being able to repeatedly update it without reposting it.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Someone posted a thread that could work as a "Should Bayonetta be banned or not"-thread, so let's move that discussion to this thread, all right? https://smashboards.com/threads/why-i-love-bayonetta-and-why-we-shouldnt-ban-her.453123/

 

[The_Bookworm]

Someone posted a thread that could work as a "Should Bayonetta be banned or not"-thread, so let's move that discussion to this thread, all right? https://smashboards.com/threads/why-i-love-bayonetta-and-why-we-shouldnt-ban-her.453123/

It is simply his opinion on why Bayo shouldn't be banned. His reasons are very much true though (although the waifu talk at the beginning is unnecessary).

Anyways, I posted a thread on the PGR v5's progress (that will be updated in the future), and a recap of PGR v4.
https://smashboards.com/threads/pgr-v5-updates-and-pgr-v4-recap.453122/

 

[Galaxeon]

This may sound a bit crazy, but isn't it a given that by this day next year - if not before - we will already have another smash edition on the Switch, if not released at least announced? And that there is a huge chance that, whether it will be called Smash for Switch, Smash 4 Deluxe or Smash 5, it will run the same game engine/mechanics than smash 4 with a few tweaks and new contents (just like a lot of Wii U games now on Switch)? And that among those tweaks, there will be some balance changes including a guaranteed nerf to Bayonetta, the rage mechanic, and new legal stages, among other things - probably new characters?

A lot of assumptions. But I think this is probably our last year of Smash 4 without any new content to look forward to. I just don't see the point in splitting our community right before that.

Perhaps I'm being too optimistic or delusional, perhaps my logic of thinking the answer to all of our problems with the game will just come by itself, is wrong... Because I don't see this point being brought very often in all of the recent debates. Still, I can't help but think this way and it makes the debate look a bit shallow to me.

Oh well, in the meantime, I'll just keep enjoying playing the game. Also... even though it's probably my main's worst match-up at this point, because of how it pushes me to play well: I actually quite like fighting Bayonetta...

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Nah, I've heard the arguments of waiting for a 2nd Bayonetta nerf patch before. It's common, but we just have not brought that up in the past couple of pages.