Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[JustCallMeJon]

Saw the Mexican Rankings. This led me to think...If Japan has their own official rankings and Mexican too, why not Europe in total? It will be interesting of who will be top 10 of the best European Smash players overall.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Saw the Mexican Rankings. This led me to think...If Japan has their own official rankings and Mexican too, why not Europe in total? It will be interesting of who will be top 10 of the best European Smash players overall.

Considering that Europe is a bigger region than Mexico, that is not a bad idea! We all know who is number 1, a certain Sheik main who is sponsored by team Poor (I'm sorry, I had to), but it is interesting on who is below the number one spot.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Europe Is great tho.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Considering that Europe is a bigger region than Mexico, that is not a bad idea! We all know who is number 1, a certain Sheik main who is sponsored by team Poor (I'm sorry, I had to), but it is interesting on who is below the number one spot.

Since I watch Europe streams, here is my top 10 best Europeans overall.

1. Mr. R
2. Gluttony
3. Cyve
4. Ixis
5. quiK
6. S1
7. Purple~H
8. iStudying
9. Griffith
10. IDK?? Supahsemmie/LoNg0uw/wusi/M/Sodrek??

 

[WiFi]

Since I watch Europe streams, here is my top 10 best Europeans overall.

1. Mr. R
2. Gluttony
3. Cyve
4. Ixis
5. quiK
6. S1
7. Purple~H
8. iStudying
9. Griffith
10. IDK?? Supahsemmie/LoNg0uw/wusi/M/Sodrek??

For 10, you can also put Myollnir.

 

[MERPIS]

Time to sneak in and crash the party like I have been known to do
What's the general consensus on Olimar and Sonic nowadays? Are they on a path to rising or falling? Oh also do people now see Mewtwo as the ridiculous character that he is?
ALSO, How in the sweet lord's name is MK doing so well despite having a drought in results?

 

[Nu~]

Since I watch Europe streams, here is my top 10 best Europeans overall.

1. Mr. R
2. Gluttony
3. Cyve
4. Ixis
5. quiK
6. S1
7. Purple~H
8. iStudying
9. Griffith
10. IDK?? Supahsemmie/LoNg0uw/wusi/M/Sodrek??

Elexiao should def be top 10

 

[JustCallMeJon]

For 10, you can also put Myollnir.

Myollnir didn't enter much actually. In EU majors, he placed 25th at Syndicate and 33rd at SALT.

Elexiao should def be top 10

I thought that Elexiao could potentially be place top 10 too. Especially his win at Elysium.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Time to sneak in and crash the party like I have been known to do
What's the general consensus on Olimar and Sonic nowadays? Are they on a path to rising or falling? Oh also do people now see Mewtwo as the ridiculous character that he is?
ALSO, How in the sweet lord's name is MK doing so well despite having a drought in results?

Olimar rose thanks to Shuton, although I don't see him rise any further unless something crazy happens. Sonic, is debatable. I think he in a slight decline due to ZSS and Fox getting slightly better results, although he still has great results thanks to KEN, Manny, and 6wx, so not going any lower than top 8. Mewtwo is theorized to have even better results than he already has. I don't think he is "ridiculous" due to his defensive downfalls, but he is certainly top 10. I am not aware that MK has a "results drought". Players like AC is still doing well, while MKLeo had his 2GG Championship run with MK.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Time to sneak in and crash the party like I have been known to do
What's the general consensus on Olimar and Sonic nowadays? Are they on a path to rising or falling? Oh also do people now see Mewtwo as the ridiculous character that he is?
ALSO, How in the sweet lord's name is MK doing so well despite having a drought in results?

1. Olimar is view pretty well nowdays thanks to the efforts of Shuton. Outside of Shuton, Myran did okay but the Olimar representation is rather mediocre. Olimar has great potential though (Stickmen for example) and I would like to see other Olimar players breaking through tournaments outside of Shuton.

2. Sonic is pretty tricky. His weaknesses are not so noticable compared to Fox and Cloud (both have linear recoveries) and his strengths are kept strong. Imo, Sonic is going on a rise since KEN, Manny, Wrath, Ixis, and many others have placed well on tournaments. Sonic's MU is good against the latest backroom top tier but other characters above him can handle better. He can handle very well against Mario, Ryu, and maybe ZSS. He does well against Marth/Lucina too. His losing match-ups are Diddy, Sheik, Mewtwo, Fox, Rosalina, Bayonetta, and ESPECIALLY CLOUD. Otherwise, his representation and results grew more dominant thanks to KEN. However his results are not too dominant to compete against Fox and ZSS. Still...Sonic is on a right track.

3. Mewtwo is pretty good but I don't think he is top 5-8. He COULD be 9-12 but anything higher or lower than that is just ridiculous. Mewtwo's MU is good but similar to Sonic, it's not super-dominant. WaDi definetly helps the Mewtwo meta but recently he made a slight bump.

4. Meta Knight is more of a counter-pick character alongside DK and Bowser. However, MKLeo using MK much more and AC placing 9th at EVO Japan helps Meta Knight meta grow. Otherwise, potentially, top 15 is a likely and unlikely peak for him.

 

[The_Bookworm]

1. Olimar is view pretty well nowdays thanks to the efforts of Shuton. Outside of Shuton, Myran did okay but the Olimar representation is rather mediocre. Olimar has great potential though (Stickmen for example) and I would like to see other Olimar players breaking through tournaments outside of Shuton.

2. Sonic is pretty tricky. His weaknesses are not so noticable compared to Fox and Cloud (both have linear recoveries) and his strengths are kept strong. Imo, Sonic is going on a rise since KEN, Manny, Wrath, Ixis, and many others have placed well on tournaments. Sonic's MU is good against the latest backroom top tier but other characters above him can handle better. He can handle very well against Mario, Ryu, and maybe ZSS. He does well against Marth/Lucina too. His losing match-ups are Diddy, Sheik, Mewtwo, Fox, Rosalina, Bayonetta, and ESPECIALLY CLOUD. Otherwise, his representation and results grew more dominant thanks to KEN. However his results are not too dominant to compete against Fox and ZSS. Still...Sonic is on a right track.

3. Mewtwo is pretty good but I don't think he is top 5-8. He COULD be 9-12 but anything higher or lower than that is just ridiculous. Mewtwo's MU is good but similar to Sonic, it's not super-dominant. WaDi definetly helps the Mewtwo meta but recently he made a slight bump.

4. Meta Knight is more of a counter-pick character alongside DK and Bowser. However, MKLeo using MK much more and AC placing 9th at EVO Japan helps Meta Knight meta grow. Otherwise, potentially, top 15 is a likely and unlikely peak for him.

I think the official list's voting was over prior to 2GG Championship (which if it did count, it would've helped MK), but I might be wrong.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

I think the official list's voting was over prior to 2GG Championship (which if it did count, it would've helped MK), but I might be wrong.

I heard that the official list's voting was over before the explosive results on Greninja results.

 

[MERPIS]

Olimar rose thanks to Shuton, although I don't see him rise any further unless something crazy happens. Sonic, is debatable. I think he in a slight decline due to ZSS and Fox getting slightly better results, although he still has great results thanks to KEN, Manny, and 6wx, so not going any lower than top 8. Mewtwo is theorized to have even better results than he already has. I don't think he is "ridiculous" due to his defensive downfalls, but he is certainly top 10. I am not aware that MK has a "results drought". Players like AC is still doing well, while MKLeo had his 2GG Championship run with MK.

I think the official list's voting was over prior to 2GG Championship (which if it did count, it would've helped MK), but I might be wrong.

So in a perfect meta game, or at the end of the meta's life (which could be any day now), where might we see these characters? Assuming that every character has been figured out and such. Is it possible for Olimar to be top 15 like we all assume and or hope?
In other words, how much undiscovered stuff/potential may be left in their respective metas?
Also, I never heard about this AC guy
...Also didn't see that whole MKLeo meta knight run thing either. Probably the reason why I asked about MK in the first place.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

So in a perfect meta game, or at the end of the meta's life (which could be any day now), where might we see these characters? Assuming that every character has been figured out and such. Is it possible for Olimar to be top 15 like we all assume and or hope?
In other words, how much undiscovered stuff/potential may be left in their respective metas?
Also, I never heard about this AC guy
...Also didn't see that whole MKLeo meta knight run thing either. Probably the reason why I asked about MK in the first place.

AC is ranked 50th at PGR and placed 9th at MKLeo Saga and EVO Japan Rankings. He's good. MKLeo used MK to defeat ZeRo...yeah the best player in the world, lost to a counter-pick. Still, MKLeo's MK is def the best MK by a large margin.

 

[MERPIS]

AC is ranked 50th at PGR and placed 9th at MKLeo Saga and EVO Japan Rankings. He's good. MKLeo used MK to defeat ZeRo...yeah the best player in the world, lost to a counter-pick. Still, MKLeo's MK is def the best MK by a large margin.

eh losing like that is nothing really new to zero, remember that whole prince ramen thing? MK's MK is some real bad news bears for some players. KEN lost, what, three times to MK's MK?

 

[The_Bookworm]

eh losing like that is nothing really new to zero, remember that whole prince ramen thing? MK's MK is some real bad news bears for some players. KEN lost, what, three times to MK's MK?

He used MK to defeat ZeRo three times before ZeRo retired: GTX loser's finals, (their next encounter) Winner's Semifinals of Championship, and Grand Finals (Set 2) of Championship. The only time ZeRo took a set off of MKLeo's MK is the first set of Grand Finals of Championship. After Championship, those two never fought a set with eachother again (except for maybe Boot Camp?).
The Prince Ramen's victory is still one of the leading representation of SSB4 upsets. Even though ZeRo got a 2-0 revenge on him on "ZeRo's runback" of ZeRo Saga, it didn't count because it was a side event, so their record is still 1-0 in Ramen's favor, even to this day.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I heard that the official list's voting was over before the explosive results on Greninja results.

I keep hearing that Greninja's results exploded prior to the official list's voting. It is believable, but can someone list specific results? I am kind of floating between these characters: , in my personal tier list, and I want to know what kind of results Greninja got to determine their current state.

 

[MERPIS]

He used MK to defeat ZeRo three times before ZeRo retired: GTX loser's finals, (their next encounter) Winner's Semifinals of Championship, and Grand Finals (Set 2) of Championship. The only time ZeRo took a set off of MKLeo's MK is the first set of Grand Finals of Championship. After Championship, those two never fought a set with eachother again (except for maybe Boot Camp?).
The Prince Ramen's victory is still one of the leading representation of SSB4 upsets. Even though ZeRo got a 2-0 revenge on him on "ZeRo's runback" of ZeRo Saga, it didn't count because it was a side event, so their record is still 1-0 in Ramen's favor, even to this day.

I dream of a day where MK is top 11-12 again. Zero being beaten by his MK three times shows a lot of promise if buddy decides to be serious with him again or if some other guy wanted to show himself up and take names. Does meta knight have his ladder TO THE MOOOOOOON combo still or did it get butchered for good?

But if we could, I would really like to talk about Olimar now, I'm bloody obsessed with buddy's progress in the meta, he seems super solid, like top 10-15 material. Going back to the brawl days. Anyone else share this opinion on Olimar?

 

[The_Bookworm]

I dream of a day where MK is top 11-12 again. Zero being beaten by his MK three times shows a lot of promise if buddy decides to be serious with him again or if some other guy wanted to show himself up and take names. Does meta knight have his ladder TO THE MOOOOOOON combo still or did it get butchered for good?

His "latter to the moon" combo was nerfed to make it harder to land and slightly easier to escape, but if you are caught in it, you are in trouble. Nerfed, but not butchered, which is why MK is not going to drop below 16th on the list, especially thanks to his recent results.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

I keep hearing that Greninja's results exploded prior to the official list's voting. It is believable, but can someone list specific results? I am kind of floating between these characters: , in my personal tier list, and I want to know what kind of results Greninja got to determine their current state.

Stroder's 13th place at 2GGC West Side Saga
Salem won Tipped Off 12 with only Greninja
iStudying placing 5th at Syndicate 2017 and 4th at B.E.A.S.T. 7
Elexiao winning Elysium, a stacked European tournament
Lea's 9th and 5th placing at Umebura 28 and 30. Also placed 13th at 2GGC: Greninja Saga.

Edit: I also didn't realized that iStudying placed 4th at B.E.A.S.T. 7 so that is important.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Stroder's 13th place at 2GGC West Side Saga
Salem won Tipped Off 12 with only Greninja
iStudying placing 5th at Syndicate 2017
Elexiao winning Elysium, a stacked European tournament
Lea's 9th and 5th placing at Umebura 28 and 30. Also placed 13th at 2GGC: Greninja Saga.

Those impressive results, although it happened in 2017, happened a while before the new official list. When exactly did voting ended?

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Those impressive results, although it happened in 2017, happened a while before the new official list. When exactly did voting ended?

I actually didn't know. What I only know that the voting ended before Greninja's explosive results and that's it. Sorry.

 

[WiFi]

So in a perfect meta game, or at the end of the meta's life (which could be any day now), where might we see these characters? Assuming that every character has been figured out and such. Is it possible for Olimar to be top 15 like we all assume and or hope?
In other words, how much undiscovered stuff/potential may be left in their respective metas?
Also, I never heard about this AC guy
...Also didn't see that whole MKLeo meta knight run thing either. Probably the reason why I asked about MK in the first place.

AC is 50 on the PGR and is not only one of the best Meta Knight mains, but also the best Falco player in the world.

Stroder's 13th place at 2GGC West Side Saga
Salem won Tipped Off 12 with only Greninja
iStudying placing 5th at Syndicate 2017
Elexiao winning Elysium, a stacked European tournament
Lea's 9th and 5th placing at Umebura 28 and 30. Also placed 13th at 2GGC: Greninja Saga.

Elexiao didn't have to face Mr.R. Mr.R is the best European player by FAR. I'm not trying to dismiss Elexiao's accomplishments, but I am. He wouldn't have won if Mr.R was there. Probably would've gotten second.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

AC is 50 on the PGR and is not only one of the best Meta Knight mains, but also the best Falco player in the world.

Elexiao didn't have to face Mr.R. Mr.R is the best European player by FAR. I'm not trying to dismiss Elexiao's accomplishments, but I am. He wouldn't have won if Mr.R was there. Probably would've gotten second.

Obviously, Elexiao will lose against Mr. R. The only Europeans that could beat Mr. R is his home country, Netherlands. S1 and iStudying were one of the few Europeans who defeated Mr. R before.

 

[Minordeth]

A side note on Mr. R and the future of the meta -

He is now using or will be using the mod training mode, in order to expand on Sheik’s combo game and see what is actually true. He (along with pretty much every Sheik), has stuff that he thinks is true, but can’t reliably test.

Assuming he follows through, it would be quite a game changer. The ability to lab out frame traps and real combos by yourself is a massive tool that has held this meta back for a long time.

I don’t think I need to explain the value of extended, true combos and frame traps that account for DI variations given the recent talk.

 

[Deleted member]

A side note on Mr. R and the future of the meta -

He is now using or will be using the mod training mode, in order to expand on Sheik’s combo game and see what is actually true. He (along with pretty much every Sheik), has stuff that he thinks is true, but can’t reliably test.

Assuming he follows through, it would be quite a game changer. The ability to lab out frame traps and real combos by yourself is a massive tool that has held this meta back for a long time.

I don’t think I need to explain the value of extended, true combos and frame traps that account for DI variations given the recent talk.

Wow if he continues this, than Sheik could be something bigger than she already is. This is making me thinking that Sheik could have some untapped potential, but that is just me. Diddy Kong does not have any other combos to go through anymore, the only one being that down tilt to up smash. Works like a charm, but I can hear someone just say "lol SDI". If Sheik unleashes these combos, she could become better than Diddy Kong eventually.

 

[The-Technique]

Honestly Kome's record over all the top clouds in Japan + Tweek is enough to prove Shulk does have an argument for even in the matchup. I'll post my thoughts on the MU at a later time because posting from mobile on here sucks

I'm eager to hear these thoughts regarding Shulk v Cloud.

 

[|RK|]

Wow if he continues this, than Sheik could be something bigger than she already is. This is making me thinking that Sheik could have some untapped potential, but that is just me. Diddy Kong does not have any other combos to go through anymore, the only one being that down tilt to up smash. Works like a charm, but I can hear someone just say "lol SDI". If Sheik unleashes these combos, she could become better than Diddy Kong eventually.

I'm not sure how you can come to this conclusion.

Just because Sheik players think there's more to lab for her doesn't mean Diddy Kong doesn't.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not sure how you can come to this conclusion.

Just because Sheik players think there's more to lab for her doesn't mean Diddy Kong doesn't.

You think so? I guess that is some kind of conclusion.
The main reason why I think Sheik is better than Diddy Kong with untapped potential simply because Sheik has more utility than Diddy Kong, but that can just be my bad reasoning.

AC is ranked 50th at PGR and placed 9th at MKLeo Saga and EVO Japan Rankings. He's good. MKLeo used MK to defeat ZeRo...yeah the best player in the world, lost to a counter-pick. Still, MKLeo's MK is def the best MK by a large margin.

Pretty much agreed. Someone could argue that MKLeo's MK is a "counterpick and does not count as a main, which makes him not the best MK in the world", but I think that MKLeo's Meta Knight is the best Meta Knight. MKLeo is by far the best player when it comes to punishing with Meta Knight.

 

[Luco]

Goodbye to those who are leaving. This thread represents to me everything that is good about the community in one gigantic clusterheck of varying degrees of cringeworthy posts combined with plenty of lovely and thought-provoking ones.

But I've been pranked so here I stay.

As it turns out Diddy has some really interesting combos involving Nairs and footstools, it could be really interesting to see whether a training mod pack varies his otherwise cookie-cutter gameplay.

On the other hand I wonder if Diddy will need it to stay more relevant than Sheik - he does have the best ledgetrapping in the game bar none and this game is more about which advantage states are the easiest as opposed to which ones are the flat out most damaging.

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean the big issue here is "what does 'best' mean?"

MKLeo's MK has the biggest peak performance in a single matchup against a single player, which very well might be your definition. It's a perfectly reasonable one, and frankly one that we apply selectively to a lot of lower tier performances.

If you are talking about theoretical performance across all matchups, then MKLeo may or may not be considered the best. Probably is though.

If you are talking about performance across a broad array of matchups backed up by a high density of data/results, it's probably going to be a dedicated main just by virtue of what you are asking for.

A final definition that some (silly) people use is "who wins the ditto?!?", but I don't think anyone here is that silly.

 

[|RK|]

Goodbye to those who are leaving. This thread represents to me everything that is good about the community in one gigantic clusterheck of varying degrees of cringeworthy posts combined with plenty of lovely and thought-provoking ones.

But I've been pranked so here I stay.

As it turns out Diddy has some really interesting combos involving Nairs and footstools, it could be really interesting to see whether a training mod pack varies his otherwise cookie-cutter gameplay.

On the other hand I wonder if Diddy will need it to stay more relevant than Sheik - he does have the best ledgetrapping in the game bar none and this game is more about which advantage states are the easiest as opposed to which ones are the flat out most damaging.

So - funny enough, ZeRo thinks Diddy is about 5th in ledge trapping. Or something like that. I forget his entire list, but he puts Sheik, Cloud, and Lucario above Diddy at least. Maybe Rosa?

Don't remember all of it.

 

[Luco]

Cloud interests me, I would've expected to see Marth before I saw Cloud. I know Sheik has a claim to be better but I think Diddy is maybe more consistent at keeping you offstage whereas Sheik just gets followups in either direction? Lucario is certainly more punishing but I think too many characters have tools to deal with AS ledge-trapping so I would still be inclined to place Diddy above him.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Cloud interests me, I would've expected to see Marth before I saw Cloud. I know Sheik has a claim to be better but I think Diddy is maybe more consistent at keeping you offstage whereas Sheik just gets followups in either direction? Lucario is certainly more punishing but I think too many characters have tools to deal with AS ledge-trapping so I would still be inclined to place Diddy above him.

ZeRo put Lucario on the list because.... he is ZeRo: the person who ranked him #10 in his tier list. XD

Other than that, yes, Lucario is good at ledge trapping, but characters like Fox can completely bypass it.

 

[Rizen]

Other than that, yes, Lucario is good at ledge trapping, but characters like Fox can completely bypass it.

How does Fox get by a big charging aura sphere at the ledge?

 

[JustCallMeJon]

How does Fox get by a big charging aura sphere at the ledge?

Fox can get pass the big charging aura sphere by Side-B.

 

[Rizen]

Fox can get pass the big charging aura sphere by Side-B.

How can Fox sideB from hanging from the ledge? Does drop>jump go to the side enough and even then can't Lucario react to it?

 

[JustCallMeJon]

How can Fox sideB from hanging from the ledge? Does drop>jump go to the side enough and even then can't Lucario react to it?

Aura sphere does not contact well against Fox side B since his side B can go through Aura Sphere. Drop-->Jump Side B can be predictable though but it is fast. If you Side-B to the stage, Lucario's option is to throw the aura sphere but through this moment Side-B is now far away and it's ending lag is nearly done. From this, Fox will have the earlier time to shield Lucario's Aura than to get hit by Aura.

An Alternative method against Aura Sphere edge guard is Fox's upair since it's hitbox is good and long enough to flinch Lucario.

Credit's goes to My Smash Corner:

Note: Go to 11:14 to see why

Note: Watch the video and The Alternative method is in the description.

 

[Minordeth]

I'm not sure how you can come to this conclusion.

Just because Sheik players think there's more to lab for her doesn't mean Diddy Kong doesn't.

Yeah, I was using Mr. R as an example to springboard off of. Literally every character can benefit from being able to calculate and then accurately test true combos and frame traps.

Diddy has tons of cool stuff, but like so many things, it’s hard to do, because the only way to test DI has been with another person. And no one is going to tolerate you wanting to practice the same footstool set ups 500 times with varying DI just so you can get it down.

But! Being able to repeatedly practice against DI in training mode by yourself allows for actual, tangible improvements.

This is just one example. Mewtwo, Diddy, Mario, Sheik, Fox, whoever, will benefit. The Fox meta is notorious for pushing combos, locks, set ups, and whatnot. Some of their more prolific lab rats already use the programs I’m talking about.

So - funny enough, ZeRo thinks Diddy is about 5th in ledge trapping. Or something like that. I forget his entire list, but he puts Sheik, Cloud, and Lucario above Diddy at least. Maybe Rosa?

Don't remember all of it.

I think it was Rosa, too, iirc.

Regardless, I actually agree with Zero. Limit Cloud and Sheik are probably the best ledge trappers in the game. After that I think it gets messy.

Rosa is nasty, especially for characters that don’t have an easy answer for the Luma infinite spin at the ledge.

Fox is Trap City: the Movie: The Game. I dunno. Leo makes Marth look dominant at the ledge. But he also makes Marth look like a top 5 character, soooo...

 

[KakuCP9]

I think there's some significant layers to AS ledgetrapping that some of you are missing. Firstly, it's rather rare nowadays to simply stand still and charge AS (you do it if you zero respect for your opponents ledge options such as characters like Dedede), more often than not Lucario will maintain movement either by jumping and charging AS at the ledge to avoid ledgedrop aerials or jump just outside the ledge and b-reverse on you when you pick a ledge option.
If Lucario wants to take less risks at the ledge, he can just stand at roll distance and either throw it at you for neutral getup, let you roll into him and convert into AS charge setups or charge-> shield-> short hop in quick succession and throw AS to beat ledge jump (also certain characters are tall enough to get hit by Short hop AS opon neutral getup).
In the case of Fox, latter option works best on him since stuffing his side-b with AS is borderline trival for Lucario and he can also seal neutral/rolling getup with little effort. The only option that requires a modicum of effort is ledge jump, but due to Fox's mediocre air mobility/landing options, he is still at a significant disadvantage and Lucario can capitalise on this by either forcing him off stage to ledgetrap him or kill him with Uthrow->uair (by the by, bthrow-> AS is also a very strong option against fastfallers).
The only characters who neutralize Lucario's ledge game are Pikachu(can he even be ledge trapped), Sheik and ZSS with platform support.