Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[JustCallMeJon]

Im a little late to the party on this one, but what is the general consensus on Lucas and DK these days?

How do I feel about DK and Lucas overall.
Currently DK ,in 2017, is sort of a counter-pick or a last resort character to many people's eyes. He has terrible MUs in top tier (especially Rosalina) but he can sort of overcome with that with his infamous Ding Dong. He has good boxing, good at racking combos, fast and giant aerials, and amazing raw kill power. His weaknesses were big issues. His big, hunky stature makes him easy to target against opponents and he can be combo-food. His recovery, while having great horizontal distance from his up-b, his vertical distance is lacking. Lastly, he cannot land. His huge hurtbox made him easy to get juggled by characters with good vertical attacks such as Rosalina. Nevertheless, he currently acheives commandable results and representation thanks to new DK mains going on the rise such as HIKARU, Tweek, Konga, and many others who tried their best to break DK's weaknesses and strive to his best in the current meta.

Currently Lucas, is a good zoner with great throws and great combos. His MUs were not as glaring than DK's but he can still struggle against opponents that gains the lead against Lucas. His strengths include his great combo game. While his combo game is hard to do and execute, it can dish out tons of damage to the opponent if done right. His tools such as PK Fire, PK Freeze, and his zairs can give Lucas a good neutral as is tools can force and pressure the opponent. He's also a good edgeguarder. With his tools, he can easily deal opponents with PK Freeze, PK Fire, his Fair, and occasionally...PK Thunder. However, he has weaknesses. He has poor approach, has rather poor efficient vertical attacks (His up-air's hitbox is badly misplace and his other vertical attacks were situational such as his Up Smash), and has mediocre ground mobility. Otherwise his potential is good enough to make him a somewhat underrated character.


Lucas' Representation and Results in 2017 and 2018
Recently, there is a decline to Lucas' result and representation, especially in Japan. Taiheita, the best Lucas main, is inactive for 4 months. Before his inactivity, their is a decline in perfomance from him. While he has good highs in Japan tournaments such as top 8 on every Karisuma he had entered, he had some bad and embarrassing lows such as his 65th placing at Umebura 26, his 49th placing at Umebura Japan Major 2017, his 49th at Sumabato 19, and his last placing at ever, placing 25th at Sumabato 21. Because of this, he dropped from being 9th at JPRs from 2016, to 15th at early 2017, 16th at middle of 2017, to 28th at early 2018. Similar to how Villager result's suffered without Ranai, Lucas's results suffered without Taiheita. Without Taiheita, his results decline as many of Japanese Lucas mains couldn't recaptured Taiheita's great performace. They place mediocre placings on Sumabatos and Umeburas and even Aghesama drowned in pools at GENESIS 5, his first US major. To make things worse, recently, his EarthBound representation, Ness, suddenly made better achievements in Japan than Lucas recently. Gackt's 17th placement in Big House 7 (His first US major ) and Taranito's 17th placement at EVO Japan shows this as Ness representation in Japan, while inconsistent, has improved recently in Japan. Rise of Gackt, taranito, and MASA forced Lucas representation to be in a scary situation of what they should do in the future without Taiheita.

 

[MERPIS]

Everybody now believes Lucas was overhyped by Taiheita, except for the Lucas mains, everybody believes Ness is now much better than Lucas and that they shouldn't be right next to each other on the tier list. Most people believe DK is the second best counterpick character after Meta Knight, but some believe Bowser is underrated.

Ah, so a bunch of wrong opinions about Lucas, and some good ones about DK. Good to know.
Just a side question, what exactly makes MK the best secondary? Aside from that matchup against Rosaluma.

Currently DK ,in 2017, is sort of a counter-pick or a last resort character to many people's eyes. He has terrible MUs in top tier (especially Rosalina) but he can sort of overcome with that with his infamous Ding Dong. He has good boxing, good at racking combos, fast and giant aerials, and amazing raw kill power. His weaknesses were big issues. His big, hunky stature makes him easy to target against opponents and he can be combo-food. His recovery, while having great horizontal distance from his up-b, his vertical distance is lacking. Lastly, he cannot land. His huge hurtbox made him easy to get juggled by characters with good vertical attacks such as Rosalina. Nevertheless, he currently acheives commandable results and representation thanks to new DK mains going on the rise such as HIKARU, Tweek, Konga, and many others who tried their best to break DK's weaknesses and strive to his best in the current meta.

Currently Lucas, in 2017, is a good zoner with great throws and great combos. His MUs were not as bearable than DK's but he can still struggle against opponents that gains the lead against Lucas. His strengths include his great combo game. While his combo game is hard to do and execute, it can dish out tons of damage to the opponent if done right. His tools such as PK Fire, PK Freeze, and his zairs can give Lucas a good neutral as is tools can force and pressure the opponent. He's also a good edgeguarder. With his tools, he can easily deal opponents with PK Freeze, PK Fire, his Fair, and occasionally...PK Thunder. However, he has weaknesses. He has poor approach, has rather poor efficient vertical attacks (His up-air's hitbox is badly misplace and his other vertical attacks were situational such as his Up Smash), and has mediocre ground mobility. Otherwise his potential is good enough to make him a somewhat underrated character.

....
Recently, their is a decline to Lucas' result and representation. Taiheita, the best Lucas main, is inactive for 4 months. Before his inactivity, their is a decline in perfomance from him. While he has good highs in Japan tournaments such as top 8 on every Karisuma he had entered, he had some bad and embarrassing lows such as his 65th placing at Umebura 26, his 49th placing at Umebura Japan Major 2017, his 49th at Sumabato 19, and his last placing at ever, placing 25th at Sumabato 21. Because of this, he dropped from being 9th from 2016, to 15th at early 2017, 16th at middle of 2017, to 28th at early 2018. Similar to how the Villager result's suffered without Ranai, Lucas's results suffered without Taiheita. Without Taiheita, his results decline as many of Japanese Lucas mains couldn't recaptured Taiheita's great performace as they place decent placings on Sumabatos and Umeburas. To make things worse, recently, his EarthBound representation, Ness, suddenly made better achievements in Japan than Lucas recently. Gackt's 17th placement in Big House 7 and Taranito's 17th placement at EVO Japan shows this as Ness representation in Japan, while inconsistent, they improved later on in Japan.

Dude what is it with zoners and being dropped by their players? Are they THAT cancerous and tedious to play against? Or is it just mere coincidence?

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Ah, so a bunch of wrong opinions about Lucas, and some good ones about DK. Good to know.
Just a side question, what exactly makes MK the best secondary? Aside from that matchup against Rosaluma.

Comparing to DK, Meta Knight weaknesses weren't as super glaring as DK and his MUs fared much better than DK's. Both can do early finishers by their powerful combos but MK is better by MUs and not so glaring weaknesses in comparison to DK.

 

[MERPIS]

Comparing to DK, Meta Knight weaknesses weren't as super glaring as DK and his MUs fared much better than DK's. Both can do early finishers by their powerful combos but MK is better by MUs and not so glaring weaknesses in comparison to DK.

What are MK's worst MUs nowadays? I remember it being Sonic, Diddy, Mario and Netta, unless it's changed.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Currently DK ,in 2017, is sort of a counter-pick or a last resort character to many people's eyes. He has terrible MUs in top tier (especially Rosalina) but he can sort of overcome with that with his infamous Ding Dong. He has good boxing, good at racking combos, fast and giant aerials, and amazing raw kill power. His weaknesses were big issues. His big, hunky stature makes him easy to target against opponents and he can be combo-food. His recovery, while having great horizontal distance from his up-b, his vertical distance is lacking. Lastly, he cannot land. His huge hurtbox made him easy to get juggled by characters with good vertical attacks such as Rosalina. Nevertheless, he currently acheives commandable results and representation thanks to new DK mains going on the rise such as HIKARU, Tweek, Konga, and many others who tried their best to break DK's weaknesses and strive to his best in the current meta.

Currently Lucas, in 2017, is a good zoner with great throws and great combos. His MUs were not as bearable than DK's but he can still struggle against opponents that gains the lead against Lucas. His strengths include his great combo game. While his combo game is hard to do and execute, it can dish out tons of damage to the opponent if done right. His tools such as PK Fire, PK Freeze, and his zairs can give Lucas a good neutral as is tools can force and pressure the opponent. He's also a good edgeguarder. With his tools, he can easily deal opponents with PK Freeze, PK Fire, his Fair, and occasionally...PK Thunder. However, he has weaknesses. He has poor approach, has rather poor efficient vertical attacks (His up-air's hitbox is badly misplace and his other vertical attacks were situational such as his Up Smash), and has mediocre ground mobility. Otherwise his potential is good enough to make him a somewhat underrated character.

....
Recently, there is a decline to Lucas' result and representation. Taiheita, the best Lucas main, is inactive for 4 months. Before his inactivity, their is a decline in perfomance from him. While he has good highs in Japan tournaments such as top 8 on every Karisuma he had entered, he had some bad and embarrassing lows such as his 65th placing at Umebura 26, his 49th placing at Umebura Japan Major 2017, his 49th at Sumabato 19, and his last placing at ever, placing 25th at Sumabato 21. Because of this, he dropped from being 9th from 2016, to 15th at early 2017, 16th at middle of 2017, to 28th at early 2018. Similar to how Villager result's suffered without Ranai, Lucas's results suffered without Taiheita. Without Taiheita, his results decline as many of Japanese Lucas mains couldn't recaptured Taiheita's great performace as they place mediocre placings on Sumabatos and Umeburas. To make things worse, recently, his EarthBound representation, Ness, suddenly made better achievements in Japan than Lucas recently. Gackt's 17th placement in Big House 7 and Taranito's 17th placement at EVO Japan shows this as Ness representation in Japan, while inconsistent, has improved recently in Japan. Rise of Gackt, taranito, and MASA forced Lucas representation to be in a scary situation of what they should do in the future.

It doesn't help of the fact that even with Taiheita included, Lucas's peaks has never been as strong or as consist as Ness's by a noticeable margin. Lucas also suffers from an over reliance on his somewhat slow grab and a recovery that is susceptible to gimping (although not the same degree as Ness's). Nevertheless, he is an alright character, but I feel like I have been bashing on him a little bit too hard in terms of explanations.

Comparing to DK, Meta Knight weaknesses weren't as super glaring as DK and his MUs fared much better than DK's. Both can do early finishers by their powerful combos but MK is better by MUs and not so glaring weaknesses in comparison to DK.

Furthermore, MK mains has shown that he is good as a solo main as well.

Everybody now believes Lucas was overhyped by Taiheita, except for the Lucas mains, everybody believes Ness is now much better than Lucas and that they shouldn't be right next to each other on the tier list. Most people believe DK is the second best counterpick character after Meta Knight, but some believe Bowser is underrated.

He is a very good player, but was pretty much overhyped.
#regionbias

 

[WiFi]

It doesn't help of the fact that even with Taiheita included, Lucas's peaks has never been as strong or as consist as Ness's by a noticeable margin. Lucas also suffers from an over reliance on his somewhat slow grab and a recovery that is susceptible to gimping (although not the same degree as Ness's). Nevertheless, he is an alright character, but I feel like I have been bashing on him a little bit too hard in terms of explanations.

Furthermore, MK mains has shown that he is good as a solo main as well.

He is a very good player, but was pretty much overhyped.
#regionbias

Lucas also doesn't have the best kill confirm in the game, that being Ness's back throw. I consider kill throws to be kill confirms, mostly because once you get the grab at that percent, the kill is guaranteed. Ness's back throw is fantastic at high percents though.

Edit: Meta Knight has proven to be a solid and meta threat. MKLeo's run at Genesis proved that.

 

[The-Technique]

What are MK's worst MUs nowadays? I remember it being Sonic, Diddy, Mario and Netta, unless it's changed.

MK Leo will only play Meta Knight versus Sonic and Diddy these days, so I don't think that's the case with regards to them.

 

[MERPIS]

Furthermore, MK mains has shown that he is good as a solo main as well.

Oh...I see...That changes things up a lot

 

[WiFi]

Oh...I see...That changes things up a lot

The only real bad matchup I can see for Meta Knight is Cloud, Bayonetta, and Mario. Really good matchup spread overall. I can actually see Meta Knight going up the tier list as Mario is starting to fade from relevance.

 

[MERPIS]

The only real bad matchup I can see for Meta Knight is Cloud, Bayonetta, and Mario. Really good matchup spread overall. I can actually see Meta Knight going up the tier list as Mario is starting to fade from relevance.

I never really understood what makes Netta and CLoud so bad for him. He absolutely butchers cloud off stage and one good punish could potentially lead to death. Netta, I have nothing for I don't play that MU too much.

 

[WiFi]

I never really understood what makes Netta and CLoud so bad for him. He absolutely butchers cloud off stage and one good punish could potentially lead to death. Netta, I have nothing for I don't play that MU too much.

Offstage. Meta Knight isn't that heavy, and a good Cloud is going to space well, making very hard for MK to get in. I don't know why Bayonetta is losing though, I only pick Meta Knight against Peach, because I hate the Peach/Fox matchup.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Offstage. Meta Knight isn't that heavy, and a good Cloud is going to space well, making very hard for MK to get in. I don't know why Bayonetta is losing though, I only pick Meta Knight against Peach, because I hate the Peach/Fox matchup.

Although I am a Fox main myself but I want to understand why Ness go 50:50 against Fox but Lucas cannot go well against Fox??

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

A simpler way of looking at it is that Ness doesn't like range and Fox doesn't fight at a range being a zone breaker hence why he does fine against him.

Lucas is a zoning character and Fox is a zone breaker, I'm sure you can do the math from there.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The only real bad matchup I can see for Meta Knight is Cloud, Bayonetta, and Mario. Really good matchup spread overall. I can actually see Meta Knight going up the tier list as Mario is starting to fade from relevance.

Mario is doing a good job holding the 9-10th position tbh. His representation is still very large, and while he doesn't have the late 2016- early 2017 peaks, he still obtains good results from Ally, AnTi, and Zenyou (with the latter player finally arriving at the PGR).

A simpler way of looking at it is that Ness doesn't like range and Fox doesn't fight at a range being a zone breaker hence why he does fine against him.

Lucas is a zoning character and Fox is a zone breaker, I'm sure you can do the math from there.

In the tournament tracker thread, I saw that you placed 5th in a local with AnTi and Mekos in there. Impressive!

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

You must be referring to another Envoy I'm not that good lol.

Anyone know when we are getting our first S tier? Don't feel like tournaments this year have carried the same prestige as last.

 

[MERPIS]

Mario is doing a good job holding the 9-10th position tbh. His representation is still very large, and while he doesn't have the late 2016- early 2017 peaks, he still obtains good results from Ally, AnTi, and Zenyou (with the latter player finally arriving at the PGR).

In the tournament tracker thread, I saw that you placed 5th in a local with AnTi and Mekos in there. Impressive!

Meta Knight shall stay 11th for all eternity.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Why is MK top 11 in your opinion??

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Ah, so a bunch of wrong opinions about Lucas, and some good ones about DK. Good to know.
Just a side question, what exactly makes MK the best secondary? Aside from that matchup against Rosaluma.


Dude what is it with zoners and being dropped by their players? Are they THAT cancerous and tedious to play against? Or is it just mere coincidence?

Zoners were generally disliked by the community because it is annoying to fight against. All the pressure they put force the opponent to become aggressive and tries to take down the zoners only to get dunked by the zoners. IMO, zoners were fun to play with but annoying to play against. Zoners were up and down recently, Link, Duck Hunt, and Toon Link recently grew in performance thanks to T, Raito, and Sigma, bumping up representation and results. However, Megaman, Villager, and Lucas dropped down because the best players either played worse than last year by people knowing the MUs or they were inactive (Ranai and Taiheita were inactive for a LONG time). Otherwise, these three doesn't have the BEST representation, so if the best player drops it's performance or went inactive, it is difficult to bring back their glory days.

Oh, yeah, players went inactive because either they have to work, go to school/college, or was bored of the game and moves on to another game. Taiheita went inactive because of work issues, Ranai went inactive because he is in favor of Splatoon. Not all Smashers play Smash forever, that is the sad truth.

 

[Routa]

Many of the zoners have way too low damage output or really hard time to kill which makes them annoying to play.
Reward feels low when you factor how hard it is to keep your opponent far away from you.

 

[WiFi]

Zoners were generally disliked by the community because it is annoying to fight against. All the pressure they put force the opponent to become aggressive and tries to take down the zoners only to get dunked by the zoners. IMO, zoners were fun to play with but annoying to play against. Zoners were up and down recently, Link, Duck Hunt, and Toon Link recently grew in performance thanks to T, Raito, and Sigma, bumping up representation and results. However, Megaman, Villager, and Lucas dropped down because the best players either played worse than last year by people knowing the MUs or they were inactive (Ranai and Taiheita were inactive for a LONG time). Otherwise, these three doesn't have the BEST representation, so if the best player drops it's performance or went inactive, it is difficult to bring back their glory days.

Oh, yeah, players went inactive because either they have to work, go to school/college, or was bored of the game and moves on to another game. Taiheita went inactive because of work issues, Ranai went inactive because he is in favor of Splatoon. Not all Smashers play Smash forever, that is the sad truth.

I like zoners, Fox eats them for breakfast, except for Ness, but Ness is more of a grappler than a zoner anyway. Megaman went down because Diddy Players learned the matchup, and because he has a relatively small playerbase compared to the other zoners. A trend I noticed among all zoners though is that they all have a bad matchup against Cloud and Rosalina. Cloud because he doesn't have to approach, and Rosalina because Luma tanks projectiles, and Luma stuff in general.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

I like zoners, Fox eats them for breakfast, except for Ness, but Ness is more of a grappler than a zoner anyway. Megaman went down because Diddy Players learned the matchup, and because he has a relatively small playerbase compared to the other zoners. A trend I noticed among all zoners though is that they all have a bad matchup against Cloud and Rosalina. Cloud because he doesn't have to approach, and Rosalina because Luma tanks projectiles, and Luma stuff in general.

Ness is not a zoner. He has projectiles, but most of his projectiles has rather slow start-up and end-lag (Obvious example is PK Flash). I saw him as an aggressive grappler/mix-up character.

*Made a typo it suppose to say end LAG not end-UP. Going to do a quick fix....DONE.

 

[J0eyboi]

Ness is not a zoner. He has projectiles, but most of his projectiles has rather slow start-up and end-up (Obvious example is PK Flash). I saw him as an aggressive grappler/mix-up character.

It's called endlag, not end-up. I agree with what you're actually saying, though; Ness has exactly one projectile that could be used for zoning (PK Fire) and it completely loses to air approaches.

 

[The_Bookworm]

It's called endlag, not end-up. I agree with what you're actually saying, though; Ness has exactly one projectile that could be used for zoning (PK Fire) and it completely loses to air approaches.

PK Thunder is an underrated zoning tool in my opinion.

FOW, btw, also dropped the game for Splatoon as well.

 

[The_Bookworm]

You must be referring to another Envoy I'm not that good lol.

Anyone know when we are getting our first S tier? Don't feel like tournaments this year have carried the same prestige as last.

Well that Envoy also used Ness and Mewtwo, sooooo.

I think they changed the formula for S Tiers to occur, because they were simply too many in v4. The A Tiers that occurred (Genesis and Frostbite), doesn't have the majority of top players there, with Frostbite being an obvious example as many top players were in Japan (like MKLeo, Larry, and Nairo).

 

[J0eyboi]

PK Thunder is an underrated zoning tool in my opinion.

It really doesn't work in neutral. When your opponent is above you, it's good because it juggles, can't be shielded, and is basically completely risk-free, but it's not maneuverable enough to be used effectively against opponents in front of you, as most characters, even when airborne, should be able to fastfall and shield it, which also prevents you from using PK Thunder 2 as an escape, which would probably result in an SD anyway in any situation you'd actually want to use PK Thunder.

That said, I'm A) literally no one important and B) mostly just theorycrafting here, so everything I've said could be wrong. Who knows?

 

[JustCallMeJon]

It's called endlag, not end-up.

Made a typo. I know it suppose to be end-lag but I was typing quickly and I am going to another class sooo...

 

[Deleted member]

I feel like Emblem Lord's old claims that the Pits are not good is actually right.
While the Pits are definitely not the worst characters in the game, they are easily the most underwhelming. While their damage output in the beginning and juggling is good, that is really it. Their hit boxes are a little weird and their range is smaller than it seems. Pit's lack of kill confirms really hurts him. Has to rely on smash attacks to put on some work to be honest.
I personally think that if this tier list still stayed, the Pits should be from D tier to the top of E tier.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

FOW, btw, also dropped the game for Splatoon as well.

Including Ranai...I miss Ranai...

....

Otherwise I'm pretty sad that FOW (and Ranai )dropped Smash in favor of Splatoon but that's it suppose to go. Play the game constantly until you get bored of it and move on to different games that may interest you.

Still optimistic that FOW leaving doesn't entirely ruin the Ness meta as S1, Gackt, taranito, MASA, BestNess, TGG, and NAKAT grew better recently in 2018 (NAKAT haven't entered the tournament though but Midwest Mayhem will be his first tournament.) .

Also would it be interesting if both NAKAT vs S1 fought each other in Midwest Mayhem 11 in a Ness ditto??

 

[JustCallMeJon]

I feel like Emblem Lord's old claims that the Pits are not good is actually right.
While the Pits are definitely not the worst characters in the game, they are easily the most underwhelming. While their damage output in the beginning and juggling is good, that is really it. Their hit boxes are a little weird and their range is smaller than it seems. Pit's lack of kill confirms really hurts him. Has to rely on smash attacks to put on some work to be honest.
I personally think that if this tier list still stayed, the Pits should be from D tier to the top of E tier.

Not only that, Pit's results and representation grew more shallow. Kuro, the second best Pit player, switches over to a much more powerful character, Fox. Earth, Pit's best player, began to use Corrin and since then he's used Corrin more efficently. I began to feel that Earth will slowly replace Pit over Corrin. It's only a matter of time that every Pit player will either retire or switch to a higher tier character. What a sad tme.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Including Ranai...I miss Ranai...

....

Otherwise I'm pretty sad that FOW (and Ranai )dropped Smash in favor of Splatoon but that's it suppose to go. Play the game constantly until you get bored of it and move on to different games that may interest you.

Still optimistic that FOW leaving doesn't entirely ruin the Ness meta as S1, Gackt, taranito, MASA, BestNess, TGG, and NAKAT grew better recently in 2018 (NAKAT haven't entered the tournament though but Midwest Mayhem will be his first tournament.) .

Also would it be interesting if both NAKAT vs S1 fought each other in Midwest Mayhem 11 in a Ness ditto??

That is a main point I would like to give out on the character. These curves from those characters went strong in 2017 as well. Most people dismiss Ness as soon as FOW left the game after EVO 2017, but forgot to look at the strong and consistent successes of the other Ness players. Ness is a lucky character, being able to continue being a successful character in tournaments even after their best player left the game. With a strong start in 2018, with success in Japan found, it will be interesting to see the future of this character.
It would be cool to see NAKAT vs S1 in Ness dittos, but I have a feeling NAKAT would use Fox or Lucina instead, rather than doing the ditto.

Not only that, Pit's results and representation grew more shallow. Kuro, the second best Pit player, switches over to a much more powerful character, Fox. Earth, Pit's best player, began to use Corrin and since then he's used Corrin more efficently. I began to feel that Earth will slowly replace Pit over Corrin. It's only a matter of time that every Pit player will either retire or switch to a higher tier character. What a sad tme.

Earth still uses Pit a bit more often in tournaments and still grabs consistent success in Japan (such as his Umebura T.A.T. run). I am still a little upset that people dismiss Pit due to his "honesty", but characters like Duck Hunt and Link has shown to have greater success.

 

[MERPIS]

Why is MK top 11 in your opinion??

Because he's the best secondary in the game.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Because he's the best secondary in the game.

MK being a strong secondary doesn't mean it is that high. Marth and Corrin (and arguably Lucina and Ryu) has slightly better tournament success, and not everyone uses him as a secondary (inb4 the "YOU USE HIM AS A SECONDARY" comments).

Either way I personally consider this character the best secondary character in the game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqfjk7h-_fM

(I am deeply sorry. I am feeling silly again.)

 

[MERPIS]

MK being a strong secondary doesn't mean it is that high. Marth and Corrin (and arguably Lucina and Ryu) has slightly better tournament success, and not everyone uses him as a secondary (inb4 the "YOU USE HIM AS A SECONDARY" comments).

Either way I personally consider this character the best secondary character in the game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqfjk7h-_fM

(I am deeply sorry. I am feeling silly again.)

too bad its my opinion and its subjective (INSERT SMUG ANIMEA WEEB IMAGE HERE)

 

[The_Bookworm]

too bad its my opinion and its subjective (INSERT SMUG ANIMEA WEEB IMAGE HERE)

Alright.... You do you.

(Looks like I am not the only one feeling silly today.)

 

[InfinitySoul]

I still think Pit is better than what most give him credit for :
1 - his flaws are not that big. You can't 'just hit his upB that doesn't have an hitbox'.
Earth have been top 10 in Japan with solo-Pit for way too long. If anti-Pit strategies where as big as people make them to be, they would have been developped in Japan.

2 - no PR level Pits are able to agree on which match ups are truly aweful for Pit. In contrast, it is pretty much agreed that Cloud and Corrin are terrible match ups for Ness. DK has Rosalina...
So Pit can be a solo viable character. Maybe some match ups are a bit optimistic. But at least there is this optimism than other characters don't have.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I still think Pit is better than what most give him credit for :
1 - his flaws are not that big. You can't 'just hit his upB that doesn't have an hitbox'.
Earth have been top 10 in Japan with solo-Pit for way too long. If anti-Pit strategies where as big as people make them to be, they would have been developped in Japan.

2 - no PR level Pits are able to agree on which match ups are truly aweful for Pit. In contrast, it is pretty much agreed that Cloud and Corrin are terrible match ups for Ness. DK has Rosalina...
So Pit can be a solo viable character. Maybe some match ups are a bit optimistic. But at least there is this optimism than other characters don't have.

Cloud isn't too bad for Ness. Marth in the other hand....

Similar to Brawl, Pit has even matchups throughout a lot of the cast, but that is a main issue as well.

 

[MERPIS]

Alright.... You do you.

(Looks like I am not the only one feeling silly today.)

(I see you are a man of culture as well)

 

[The_Bookworm]

(I see you are a man of culture as well)

Okay, lets drop that.

Anyways, a tournament called "Mason Versus: Mr. E" is scheduled for April 14th, and it is a C Tier so far.

 

[InfinitySoul]

Similar to Brawl, Pit has even matchups throughout a lot of the cast, but that is a main issue as well.

I think it depends on how we see a tier list. How much do we rate solo viability ?

 

[The_Bookworm]

I think it depends on how we see a tier list. How much do we rate solo viability ?

It is simply how much success the character has, but solo viability has more points. However, one could not very solo viable and still obtain good results, which results in a higher placement. For example, Brawl Dedede is a popular secondary character due to his dominating matchups against most of the characters below him. However, he is considered not solo viable for tournament play due to his disadvantaged matchups against MK and ICs: the two most common characters in competitive play. Nevertheless, Dedede is currently ranked a whooping 12th in the tier list due to his above average results and strong matchups on characters below him.

Official lists goes through a poll, so people's opinions on a character's viability can have an effect on the rankings of characters (although statistics are used as well). As a result, characters like Lucas can end up being ranked higher (or lower in the case of Ike) than their results say.