Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Baby_Sneak]

Errr doesn’t Pit have a really good AA game? Something I’d think when fighting pit is his DA. covers a ton of space really quickly, so that throws off my spacing. That and his AA game, which compares to mine, and I’m fat which makes it far worse for me. His aerial game is good, but his ground game i think is better. A nice gentleman, clean Ftilt and Dtilt, really good DA, fast smash attacks all around with good spacial coverage, fast runner, etc.

Idk, I think he’s kinda untapped, earth just took his kit and made really good decisions with it. But, that’s all though.

That’s like most of the cast anyway.

 

[Locke 06]

Pit can definitely do more than 30% from a neutral win. He juggles and traps people at the ledge and resets his soft advantage state better than 90% of the cast.

Being stuck at the ledge vs Pit isn't fun. It's a slow burn that ends in forward throw, ftilt, or BAir, and then more arrows.

Have any of you actually seen or played against a top Pit? Even watch Kiraflax lately put in work? Sounds like you just want to trash the character for fun, but a good Pit is very strong. If someone you don't know sits down and picks Pit, you're probably fine, but if someone has played Pit for 3 years and has had success before? Even if you play a top tier, he can definitely give you trouble.

Pit's moves are good in function, but undertuned in terms of reward. If you understand that, you realize he just needs to work harder, but can compete vs just about anyone in the cast.

Edit: hngg this character is so good. X_X

 

[The_Bookworm]

okay but really who's repping the pits now that earth is done? Who's been repping them?
at least villager has kept and aarvark

Earth still uses Pit to good effect. KiraFlax, Len, and Chompy still reps Pit, and Kuro as well if he decides to brings him out (he mains Fox now).


Anyways, three C Tier events are going on this weekend: King of the Spring 3, No Fun Allowed 2, and Xanadu- End of an Era.
https://smashboards.com/threads/pgr-v5-updates-and-pgr-v4-recap.453122/#post-21921871

 

[Frihetsanka]

I agree that mid tiers aren’t at the forefront of the meta. It’s why they are mid tiers. What I’m saying is that Pit has almost no relevance. Yeah he has some results, but let’s be real, if you play a top tier character, I wouldn’t be sweating the Pit MU too hard.

I think Pit actually has more tools to deal with top tiers than many other characters. As in, he mostly goes -1 vs them, which isn't great, but not terrible either. Which is why he's a mid tier and not a low tier, I suppose. You can get results with him, but you're still at a slight disadvantage vs most relevant characters (and he does have some -2 MUs), and you have to play really well to actually win.

He just doesn’t put the fear of god in you, even with rage. If you have Link or Ike with stupid rage percent, they have a lot of buttons that can do you in fast.

In that aspect, he's arguably less scary than even low tiers like Ganondorf and King Dedede. Pit is a very "honest" character, in a game where most characters have some stupid comeback tools. As far as I know, Pit doesn't have that. He's kind of like "Yeah, he has some pretty good stuff, but nothing super scary".

Like, you sit down to play your next match at a tourney; this dude sits down right after you; you both are on the character select screen, and he chooses Pit.

Tell me your immediate reaction is anything other than, “Oh. It’s just Pit.”

I would probably be pretty relieved that I likely won't get killed at 70%, yes. I suppose he could arrow snipe some characters, though that's probably hard to do vs Corrin (though, to be honest, I'm not very familiar with the Corrin-Pit MU, I don't I've ever seen it on stream, and I've yet to play a good Pit main).

I think contrary to beliefs stated here, DLC hurt him less[...]

Agreed, most relevant DLCs are just -1 for Pit. Characters like Villager and Toon Link were hurt much more (yet they're still better than Pit).

Pit's moves are good in function, but undertuned in terms of reward. If you understand that, you realize he just needs to work harder, but can compete vs just about anyone in the cast.

Pit is kind of like a -1 character. He goes -1 vs most of the relevant cast, and has a pretty good chance of winning (since -1 isn't that bad), but he has to work for it. This does make him decently solo-viable since he doesn't have many truly bad MUs (just a few -2 and probably no -3). This, of course, makes him somewhat unappealing to most players, especially since Marth and Lucina exist.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I think Pit actually has more tools to deal with top tiers than many other characters. As in, he mostly goes -1 vs them, which isn't great, but not terrible either. Which is why he's a mid tier and not a low tier, I suppose. You can get results with him, but you're still at a slight disadvantage vs most relevant characters (and he does have some -2 MUs), and you have to play really well to actually win.

In that aspect, he's arguably less scary than even low tiers like Ganondorf and King Dedede. Pit is a very "honest" character, in a game where most characters have some stupid comeback tools. As far as I know, Pit doesn't have that. He's kind of like "Yeah, he has some pretty good stuff, but nothing super scary".

I would probably be pretty relieved that I likely won't get killed at 70%, yes. I suppose he could arrow snipe some characters, though that's probably hard to do vs Corrin (though, to be honest, I'm not very familiar with the Corrin-Pit MU, I don't I've ever seen it on stream, and I've yet to play a good Pit main).

Agreed, most relevant DLCs are just -1 for Pit. Characters like Villager and Toon Link were hurt much more (yet they're still better than Pit).

Pit is kind of like a -1 character. He goes -1 vs most of the relevant cast, and has a pretty good chance of winning (since -1 isn't that bad), but he has to work for it. This does make him decently solo-viable since he doesn't have many truly bad MUs (just a few -2 and probably no -3). This, of course, makes him somewhat unappealing to most players, especially since Marth and Lucina exist.

It seems silly to me that people is thinking that characters with stupid comeback potential means that the character is broken.
One: Usually, the comeback potential rarely presents to yourself.
Two: In order to abuse rage, you have to take percent, which is extremely risky by itself.
Three: Some comeback potentials usually comes off of abusing your opponents mistakes (such as Mistake vs Nairo at Genesis).
I currently agree with Pits position and that he won't be rising in the list anytime soon, but I am a little disheartened to hear that the Smash community has shifted to characters that has BS in their moveset and thinking that they are busted (I am looking at you ZeRo), and those who don't are written off as simply bad characters.

 

[Nobie]

Pit has never been a popular character, even when he was extremely visible and doing very well. Him not having many players is never a surprise.

I think Pit can be best summarized by the way he uses his forward throw. As a forward facing kill throw, it's rewarded by controlling the stage and pushing your opponent to the ledge. A gradual grinding down that rewards good neutral but not in an overpowering way.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Can you guys give me insight on what top / notable players are going to be in the three C-Tier events going on this weekend?

Pit has never been a popular character, even when he was extremely visible and doing very well. Him not having many players is never a surprise.

I think Pit can be best summarized by the way he uses his forward throw. As a forward facing kill throw, it's rewarded by controlling the stage and pushing your opponent to the ledge. A gradual grinding down that rewards good neutral but not in an overpowering way.

I think I might want to start a thread who is the most buffed/nerfed in the transition.

 

[Heracr055]

Ex-Dark Pit main here. Playing the Pits is essentially playing Neutral-the character. His tools in neutral are good, and he can really rack up damage once he gets going. Where it gets rough is killing with this character. He has side B (Pit's an all-rounder that's not stage location dependent and DP's one that can kill earlier at the sides), forward throw (good kill option for stage edge, especially if you condition the regular get up from ledge), and his Smashes (which are okay). You can arrow snipe with Pit as well for gimps. Gimping is a decent way to kill with them, but a problem is that recoveries in this game are too good for that with these chars. Having no armor or hitbox on their linear up B hurts too. In summary: in a game where the meta revolves around sealing stocks, the Pits suffer.

 

[The_Bookworm]

In summary: in a game where the meta revolves around sealing stocks, the Pits suffer.

That doesn't seem to harm Sheik too much.

 

[MERPIS]

That doesn't seem to harm Sheik too much.

Sheik has ridiculous combos, frame data and Mobility, the pits have none of that

 

[The_Bookworm]

Sheik has ridiculous combos, frame data and Mobility, the pits have none of that

Actually, Pit's frame data is deceptively fast, as almost the entirety of his moveset has less than 10 frames of start-up lag. On a related note, all of his aerial attacks are capable of auto-cancelling with a short hop. When these traits are coupled with his disjointed range and projectile, Pit boasts a very effective neutral game.

The main issue with Pit is definitely his unimpressive KO potential.

 

[Heracr055]

Pits' FAF is nowhere near as good as Sheik's, especially his close range options.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Pits' FAF is nowhere near as good as Sheik's, especially his close range options.

I am saying that Pit has good frame data. No one is ever going to beat Sheik's by a long shot.

 

[Rizen]

Pit has very good ground startup f data for a sword character. Sword characters are slower than CQC fighters of course. The issue with all around fast starts traded for less power or range is in a close combat encounter you only need 1 or 2 fast options. Pit's faster than Ike, obviously, but pit's jab is frame 5, Ike's is 4 and frankly better. Ike has the upper hand in footsies. At least from jab range, Pit's DA is good. All around frame data isn't as good as it seems.

Pit's air data is lacking besides Nair f4, which has hitbubble issues. Fair's 11, Bair's 10. I'd rather have Link's faster frame 7 Bair and slower but stronger f14 Fair. Some slower data is fine if you have other moves to cover fast options. It's why MK's sllllooow but shield safe Fsmash is a great move for him. It would suck for a slow character like Ganon.

Marcina's ground f data is comparable to pit's and their air data is better, all with superior attacks. Completely outclassing Pit.

 

[Illusion.]

Cyanide 2-1 Larry at NFA 2

https://smash.gg/tournament/no-fun-allowed-2/events/wii-u-singles/brackets?filter={"phaseId":169777}

 

[The_Bookworm]

Cyanide 2-1 Larry at NFA 2

https://smash.gg/tournament/no-fun-allowed-2/events/wii-u-singles/brackets?filter={"phaseId":169777}

I think NFA 2 in PRG'ed so that is cool.

In Kings of Springs 3, it seems like everyone is tired. Fatality and Cosmos were SD'ing in their set, and Dabuz's SDI was literally nonexistant against Tweek's Bayo.

OMG. Fatality 3-0 Dabuz.

This does kinda support my "Dabuz is tired" comment though.

 

[JB333]

Fatality's run today was actually ridiculous...

3-2 Wadi
3-0 Samsora
3-2 Cosmos
3-0 Dabuz

Lost to Tweek in a close game 5 set in grand finals.

I don't believe another Falcon will ever get to his level in smash 4.

Also congrats to Tweek for winning KoTS 3. He honestly may be the best Bayo at this point, and with all the work he's put in, I can understand why he's doing so well.

Edit: I most certainly do not like Bayo, but I have to respect Tweek's Bayo. His ledge coverage and tech chasing is great, and he was absolutely oppressive when he was in the advantage state.

With all the talk of banning Bayo, I don't believe she is ban worthy yet; however, we may get to a point where her results and the metagame make it necessary for a ban.

 

[MERPIS]

These bloody Netta mains...

 

[The_Bookworm]

Fatality's run today was actually ridiculous...

3-2 Wadi
3-0 Samsora
3-2 Cosmos
3-0 Dabuz

Lost to Tweek in a close game 5 set in grand finals.

I don't believe another Falcon will ever get to his level in smash 4.

Also congrats to Tweek for winning KoTS 3. He honestly may be the best Bayo at this point, and with all the work he's put in, I can understand why it he's doing so well.

His Bayo is actually insane. He might be the best Bayo. Salem kinda dwindled a bit, and Mistake so far outplaced him in every event so far this season.
Is it just me, or am I looking forward to see more of this character from him?

 

[Yonder]

Elegant takes the Texas regional 3-2 over Sassy Very fun ROB to watch btw. Elegent threw a game away with picking Villager though.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Elegant took No Fun Allowed 2. The runner-up SaSSy played insane. Larry Lurr got bopped by Jumbolias and got 5th lol.

For those who are wondering, SaSSy was the ROB who took a set off of Captain Zack at Frostbite.

 

[JB333]

Elegant takes the Texas regional 3-2 over Sassy Very fun ROB to watch btw. Elegent threw a game away with picking Villager though.

It's interesting to see a character like ROB get that far in a stacked regional like that, props to Sassy for getting runner-up.

 

[The_Bookworm]

It's interesting to see a character like ROB get that far in a stacked regional like that, props to Sassy for getting runner-up.

That regional, alongside King of the Springs 3 and Xanadu- End of an Era, are C-Tiers. Triple C-Tiers this weekend. XD

 

[The-Technique]

Raphie taking the last Xanadu over Remzi after coming back from Loser's Finals, despite the whole crowd against him. Good on him.

I placed 65th, losing to first and second seed, not bad losses at all but still disappointed by my performance. Winning just one more set would have given me a chance to play on stream but alas.

 

[Nobie]

Good stuff to Ralphie. I love seeing the NY scene prove itself.

Also, looking again at Pit's data again, his smash attacks actually have almost identical startup frames as his tilts:

F-Tilt: Frame 10
F-Smash: Frame 10

U-Tilt: Frame 6
U-Smash: Frame 6

D-Tilt: Frame 6
D-Smash: Frame 5 (!)

Put differently, his tilt data is sort of average for a swordie, but his smash data is super fast for any character, period. In fact, I'm not sure if there's any character whose smash attacks are as fast on average.

As others have mentioned, a lot of his good frame data is front-loaded, so he's basically rewarded for choosing the right button, but choosing wrong means he's wide open. He doesn't smother the opponent with frame data, but he seems built for making the right read over and over, reinforcing his neutral-focused style even further.

 

[Deleted member]

I have been a little depressed lately.

Fatality's run today was actually ridiculous...

3-2 Wadi
3-0 Samsora
3-2 Cosmos
3-0 Dabuz

Lost to Tweek in a close game 5 set in grand finals.

I don't believe another Falcon will ever get to his level in smash 4.

Also congrats to Tweek for winning KoTS 3. He honestly may be the best Bayo at this point, and with all the work he's put in, I can understand why he's doing so well.

Edit: I most certainly do not like Bayo, but I have to respect Tweek's Bayo. His ledge coverage and tech chasing is great, and he was absolutely oppressive when he was in the advantage state.

With all the talk of banning Bayo, I don't believe she is ban worthy yet; however, we may get to a point where her results and the metagame make it necessary for a ban.

Dang, Fatality powered up. If Fatality did retire, I think Falcon would drop, but only drop a little. He still has a large popular player-base who is most notably for low-level play. Captain Falcon has the same flaw as Ganondorf. At very high play at the top section, it could seem impossible to win as someone said. Except this flaw applies to Captain Falcon less, he can obviously do more work than Ganondorf. Captain Falcon does actually have a higher learning curve than people think he does. Not saying he is difficult to master, but he is not a "no-skill character".

Also congrats to Tweek for winning KoTS 3. He honestly may be the best Bayo at this point, and with all the work he's put in, I can understand why he's doing so well.

Are you forgetting Salem exists? Tweek's Bayonetta is good, probably even better than Mistake's Bayonetta. Tweek's Bayonetta has beaten Salem's, but Salem is just so good.

Raphie taking the last Xanadu over Remzi after coming back from Loser's Finals, despite the whole crowd against him. Good on him.

I placed 65th, losing to first and second seed, not bad losses at all but still disappointed by my performance. Winning just one more set would have given me a chance to play on stream but alas.

Wait you play competitive Smash brothers tournaments? 65th is better than any lower set on there at least.

 

[WiFi]

Good stuff to Ralphie. I love seeing the NY scene prove itself.

Also, looking again at Pit's data again, his smash attacks actually have almost identical startup frames as his tilts:

F-Tilt: Frame 10
F-Smash: Frame 10

U-Tilt: Frame 6
U-Smash: Frame 6

D-Tilt: Frame 6
D-Smash: Frame 5 (!)

Put differently, his tilt data is sort of average for a swordie, but his smash data is super fast for any character, period. In fact, I'm not sure if there's any character whose smash attacks are as fast on average.

As others have mentioned, a lot of his good frame data is front-loaded, so he's basically rewarded for choosing the right button, but choosing wrong means he's wide open. He doesn't smother the opponent with frame data, but he seems built for making the right read over and over, reinforcing his neutral-focused style even further.

I think Meta Knight has Smash attacks that are as fast. Also, the New York scene doesn't have much to prove, considering we have Dabuz, Remzi, Ralphie, Frozen, John Numbers, and many more. Its one of the hardest Smash scenes in general.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Dang, Fatality powered up. If Fatality did retire, I think Falcon would drop, but only drop a little.

We have to keep in mind which MUs Fatality played. Captain Falcon has a lot of slightly bad MUs, but luckily for him, he mostly ran into even MUs that tournament (and lost whenever he faced Tweek). He quite likely would have lost to Cosmos though if Cosmos hadn't tried to edgeguard Falcon when he had a 60% lead (or so, I don't remember the % exactly).

 

[The_Bookworm]

We have to keep in mind which MUs Fatality played. Captain Falcon has a lot of slightly bad MUs, but luckily for him, he mostly ran into even MUs that tournament (and lost whenever he faced Tweek). He quite likely would have lost to Cosmos though if Cosmos hadn't tried to edgeguard Falcon when he had a 60% lead (or so, I don't remember the % exactly).

Everyone else also played sloppy with a few SD's (especially seen in the Fatality vs Cosmos match). Dabuz's SDI was literally nonexistant against Tweek, and a match that Dabuz historically sweeps through (Fatality) ended up in a 3-0 loss. Top 8 was taken late at night, and in the end Fatality and Tweek endured, and became the runner-up and winner, respectively.

 

[WiFi]

Fatality is on fire this season, he might go back to being top 20on the PGR.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Fatality is on fire this season, he might go back to being top 20on the PGR.

Still too early to tell, but he is on a roll. So far, Midwest Mayhem 11 (which is two weeks from now), is an another C-Tier, but I think it has a good chance to being a B-Tier.
Link to PGR v5 updates.
https://smashboards.com/threads/pgr-v5-updates-and-pgr-v4-recap.453122/#post-21921871

 

[WiFi]

Mistake is also looking to be top 10 this season.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Mistake is also looking to be top 10 this season.

He is, so far, outplacing Salem, so it is a good possibility. Again, the season is still young.

 

[MERPIS]

I love how everyone is throwing out the possibility and pretty much reality that Netta carries her players bar Salem.

>Warned for my post
Oh crap sorry for spitting my HERESAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY all over the place and ruining this, perfectly civil, not at all dictator driven, topic.

 

[|RK|]

I love how everyone is throwing out the possibility and pretty much reality that Netta carries her players bar Salem.

So, here's the thing. Regardless of what you think of a character, to call any player "carried" is a blanket statement that disrespects their skill.

If you can point out individual moments in a match that don't show one player winning an interaction over another (e.g., ZeRo SD-ing twice vs Brood), that's fine and acceptable. Feel free to point those moments out in analysis of results.

But to say that a player is "carried" is unacceptable. It's pretty much a useless way to say "this player isn't really good!" As for Bayonetta in particular, feel free to refer to Das Koopa's incredibly long Bayonetta article, showing that most Bayonetta players had results that indicate future success.

IMO, Bayonetta players heavily benefit from MU inexperience. Because there's very few people who are actually comfortable versus her (despite her being so common).

 

[Minordeth]

All these people complaining about Bayo and SDI make me feel for this younger generation of Smashers. I get why you think SDI is hard, I really do.

I understand you didn’t grow up with N64 Mario Party. Those of us who did were basically mastering single stick SDI tech without knowing. We’ve been prepared for this character for 20 years.

 

[|RK|]

While we're here, though...

https://clips.twitch.tv/VastTallQuailSMOrc?tt_medium=clips_api&tt_content=url

I just saw this on Reddit, and I wanted to share it specifically because THUNDER didn't let Mistake get away with a single heel slide on shield.

 

[Minordeth]

While we're here, though...

https://clips.twitch.tv/VastTallQuailSMOrc?tt_medium=clips_api&tt_content=url

I just saw this on Reddit, and I wanted to share it specifically because THUNDER didn't let Mistake get away with a single heel slide on shield.

Oml.

Welp, to be expected, honestly. Mistake’s Rushdown Bayo isn’t safe in general. And rushdown anything is definitely not safe against Functional Ganon feat. CQC and TSRK.

Dope play from Thunder though.

 

[The-Technique]

All these people complaining about Bayo and SDI make me feel for this younger generation of Smashers. I get why you think SDI is hard, I really do.

I understand you didn’t grow up with N64 Mario Party. Those of us who did were basically mastering single stick SDI tech without knowing. We’ve been prepared for this character for 20 years.

Adding to this, a lot of players seem to have it in their head that Bayonetta "ignores" matchups and neutral. If only they could see the thousand other no-name Bayonetta players that get demolished by a wide spectrum of characters and players with a basic grasp on SDI because they spent more time practicing death combos than matchups.

 

[Lord Dio]

While we're here, though...

https://clips.twitch.tv/VastTallQuailSMOrc?tt_medium=clips_api&tt_content=url

I just saw this on Reddit, and I wanted to share it specifically because THUNDER didn't let Mistake get away with a single heel slide on shield.

did he win the tournament, or at least get a reset?