Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[MERPIS]

Okay, lets drop that.

Anyways, a tournament called "Mason Versus: Mr. E" is scheduled for April 14th, and it is a C Tier so far.

(Ending our fun I see)

 

[WiFi]

Ness is not a zoner. He has projectiles, but most of his projectiles has rather slow start-up and end-lag (Obvious example is PK Flash). I saw him as an aggressive grappler/mix-up character.

*Made a typo it suppose to say end LAG not end-UP. Going to do a quick fix....DONE.

I literally said he was more of a grappler in the first sentence of my little paragraph. That said, we seem to have the same views on Ness, so... I guess this little conversation is over?

Back to the Pit's, they are ok, but nothing in their kit really seems strong or weak, they are just ok. The one move in Pit's kit that is exceptional is Arrows, but it stales quickly in a match. I would say that Link and Duck Hunt are better, they have some things that the Pits don't, like a good zoning game with frametraps and mixups. But, then again, I'm no Pit expert either, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

[Rizen]

Because he's the best secondary in the game.

Did everyone forget ?

I feel like Emblem Lord's old claims that the Pits are not good is actually right.
While the Pits are definitely not the worst characters in the game, they are easily the most underwhelming. While their damage output in the beginning and juggling is good, that is really it. Their hit boxes are a little weird and their range is smaller than it seems. Pit's lack of kill confirms really hurts him. Has to rely on smash attacks to put on some work to be honest.
I personally think that if this tier list still stayed, the Pits should be from D tier to the top of E tier.

Pit's not bad but he isn't good either. Aside from Nair and maybe 1 other attack, are Pit's hitbubbles that bad? Pit has a good burst game and frame data. He's the perfect example of a fine character who's undertuned. Mii Gunner is also to a greater extent.

Ness is good. His obvious selling point is Bthrow and he has a good normal moveset. Uair is scary strong, Fair walls, Nair's big, Jab and Dtilt are fast cqcs, he's not held back by grab, etc. He should be above Bowser and DK. Slightly. In many ways Ness is like them without the glaring weaknesses. He has his own share of problems and counters like Rosa keeping him out of high tier. If Pit is an undertuned mid-tier, Ness is an overtuned mid tier.

 

[ARGHETH]

no PR level Pits are able to agree on which match ups are truly aweful for Pit.

Wait, let me get this straight. Your argument is that good players can't agree on what matchups are bad for Pit, therefore he has no bad MUs?

 

[InfinitySoul]

Wait, let me get this straight. Your argument is that good players can't agree on what matchups are bad for Pit, therefore he has no bad MUs?

No.
My point is in contrast on some characters ranked above him. He doesn't have roadblocking match ups.

The_Bookworm I should have saidCorrin instead of Cloud. That is the match up i heard both Fow and s1 describe as truly problematic.

Rizen he was talking about brawl ddd
Nair and Fair both have hitboxes smaller than their animation, except for their final hit which is bigger

 

[ARGHETH]

No.
My point is in contrast on some characters ranked above him. He doesn't have roadblocking match ups.

But how did you get to that conclusion? All you said was that good Pit players can't agree which matchups are awful for Pit, so he has no awful MUs.

Also, I just realized that I put bad instead of awful in my previous post...

 

[Nu~]

Pit has no ground pokes, aerial frame data equivalent to Ike with hitboxes like this:

Spoiler

Tragedy

and a hyper linear nuetral game.

I’m not seeing anything that gets this character out of low mid tier.

 

[Routa]

He can edgeguard Bayo so clearly he is top tier.

Low damage output + bad hitboxes + hard to land killmoves = bad character

He was a bit better before DLC, but nowdays there are so many better options so there is no reason to pick him. When your only noteworthy thing is ability to catch landings...
Like others said he is simply just underwhelming overall.

 

[Deleted member]

I feel like if Earth dropped Pit, than the Pits would strand all the way in a place somewhere between 39-42 instead of his previous spot at 33/32. People seem to overestimate the Pits to be honest.
Also the Pits is one of the least discussed characters in the game, in that same area as Bowser Junior. People think that low tiers are not discussed at all but that is not true, Ganondorf and Jigglypuff are highly discussed ( even more than top tiers ). As well as Dedede and Zelda and just more.
Top five most discussed:

Top five least discussed:

Of course this is a mixture based off over character popularity outside competitive play and in competitive play

 

[InfinitySoul]

But how did you get to that conclusion? All you said was that good Pit players can't agree which matchups are awful for Pit, so he has no awful MUs.

Also, I just realized that I put bad instead of awful in my previous post...

Yes. If he had just aweful match up, a concensus would have been made about it now.

 

[The_Bookworm]

No.
My point is in contrast on some characters ranked above him. He doesn't have roadblocking match ups.

The_Bookworm I should have saidCorrin instead of Cloud. That is the match up i heard both Fow and s1 describe as truly problematic.

Rizen he was talking about brawl ddd
Nair and Fair both have hitboxes smaller than their animation, except for their final hit which is bigger

The thing that makes the matchup hard for Ness, other than trying to go through those disjoints (which other characters like the Mario Bros struggle to do), is getting edgeguarded with Counter Surge. The matchup was even harder for Ness pre-patch for that reason. The only matchups that Ness truly has issues with is Rosalina, Marth, and Corrin.

 

[TDK]

What top tier matchups does Pit do well in, though? He gets outclassed in just about every area by all the top tiers, so I can't see any of them being easy for him.

EDIT: Earth also hasn't been a solo pit main for over a year now, using more and more Corrin over time. Every other notable Pit has either dropped him or quit the game. Who is even the second best pit anymore?

 

[Krysco]

Startup-wise, Pit's aerials are pretty similar to Ike's with the exception of nair (Nair being f4 compared to f12, fair being f11 compared to f12, bair being f10 compared to f7, uair being f12 compared to f13 and dair being f10 compared to f16). Faf across the board is slightly better for Pit (Nair faf 55 compared to faf 60, fair faf 47 compared to faf 55, bair faf 41 compared to faf 55, uair faf 50 compared to faf 57 and dair faf 37 compard to faf 55). It's landing lag where Pit gets screwed with all of his aerials either having 20 frames of landing lag (fair and bair) or 24 (nair, uair, dair) and due to the multihit nature of fair it's not even safe to land with on hit unless you time it well for the launching hit to come out before you land.

Funny enough, I specifically remember a post from one of the older threads where someone compared Pit's aerials to Roy's and I responded to that post by also mentioning how much worse Pit's are. Specifically the landing lag but it is pretty terrible.

And for what it's worth, in Izaw's Art of Pit video, he says 'dtilt is safe against shield on long range' even though it's -20 on shield so I can imagine some characters being able to punish it easily.

I would be able to see Pit's neutral being able to be like Falcon's or MK's where there's a certain range where you have to fear both dash attack and dash grab but Pit's dash grab is quite a bit less ranged than his dash attack so he can't pull it off anywhere near as well.

 

[WiFi]

I feel like if Earth dropped Pit, than the Pits would strand all the way in a place somewhere between 39-42 instead of his previous spot at 33/32. People seem to overestimate the Pits to be honest.
Also the Pits is one of the least discussed characters in the game, in that same area as Bowser Junior. People think that low tiers are not discussed at all but that is not true, Ganondorf and Jigglypuff are highly discussed ( even more than top tiers ). As well as Dedede and Zelda and just more.
Top five most discussed:

Top five least discussed:

Of course this is a mixture based off over character popularity outside competitive play and in competitive play

Fox is the most discussed. The Fox community never sleeps. Although, if your talking about non-Fox mains, then yeah, your right. You might want to replace Falcon with Corrin though.

 

[Rizen]

And for what it's worth, in Izaw's Art of Pit video, he says 'dtilt is safe against shield on long range' even though it's -20 on shield so I can imagine some characters being able to punish it easily.
.

Yeah I wouldn't trust what that guy says. Pit, and every character's, shield safety is here. Frankly, it's not good. Bair at -5f on shield drop is his safest aerial, jab 1's his safest ground poke at -11 :/. For reference of good shield safety, Link's Nair is +5 and Ganon's Usmash is +1.

Pit has good mobility, recovery, long range pressure, and decent startup. He seems like a bait and punish/camper character. I agree with his current placement at lower mid tier.

 

[WiFi]

The thing that makes the matchup hard for Ness, other than trying to go through those disjoints (which other characters like the Mario Bros struggle to do), is getting edgeguarded with Counter Surge. The matchup was even harder for Ness pre-patch for that reason. The only matchups that Ness truly has issues with is Rosalina, Marth, and Corrin.

What about Sheik and Diddy? Both out-neutral and outpunish Ness hard.

 

[Frihetsanka]

What top tier matchups does Pit do well in, though? He gets outclassed in just about every area by all the top tiers, so I can't see any of them being easy for him.

Mario, Marth, and Ryu might be even (if you count them as top tier, I personally don't). I don't think Pit is a high tier, but I also don't think he's a low tier. Mid tier suits him pretty fine.

 

[Deleted member]

Diddy is overestimated, I said it.

Fox is the most discussed. The Fox community never sleeps. Although, if your talking about non-Fox mains, then yeah, your right. You might want to replace Falcon with Corrin though.

Falcon is widely discussed in the competitive meta. I think I mistakenly counted the young learning meta, but he is a very popular character in low competitive level talks. Corrin is close.

Mario, Marth, and Ryu might be even (if you count them as top tier, I personally don't). I don't think Pit is a high tier, but I also don't think he's a low tier. Mid tier suits him pretty fine.

Mm hmm. I would argue that Pit is in the lower section of Mid tier, with Wario and Roy. People seem to overestimate Pit, he really is very underwhelming. Even Zelda can put up more dangerous work than Pit. Pit is easily the most underwhelming character in the game. Pit is easily not a high tier at this point.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Diddy is overestimated, I said it.

How do you figure? Diddy still has one of the strongest MU charts in the game, doing well against almost all top tiers and high tiers, with very few losing MUs. I don't think he'll be much worse than 4th.

Mm hmm. I would argue that Pit is in the lower section of Mid tier, with Wario and Roy. People seem to overestimate Pit, he really is very underwhelming.

I agree that Pit feels very underwhelming. He's basically a jack-of-all-trades, master of none, in a game like Smash where most characters have stupid tools. Even then, Pit's overall tools are not exactly bad, and his MU spread isn't terrible by any means. He probably belongs somewhere between #30 and #35 on the list. His current 4BR placement seems fairly accurate to me.

Wario is slightly overrated by some people, in my opinoin. Glutonny is just a really, really good player. Wario might be bottom 15 (not bottom 10 though). Wario has several -2 MUs vs the top tiers, and Cloud could potentially even be a -3 MU, and his MU spread against high tiers isn't exactly good either. I'd say his current 4BR placement is fairly accurate.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Yeah I wouldn't trust what that guy says. Pit, and every character's, shield safety is here. Frankly, it's not good. Bair at -5f on shield drop is his safest aerial, jab 1's his safest ground poke at -11 :/. For reference of good shield safety, Link's Nair is +5 and Ganon's Usmash is +1.

Pit has good mobility, recovery, long range pressure, and decent startup. He seems like a bait and punish/camper character. I agree with his current placement at lower mid tier.

If you count C Tier as mid tier, then he is ranked in the middle of mid tier. If you count C Tier as high tier, then he is in upper mid tier.

What about Sheik and Diddy? Both out-neutral and outpunish Ness hard.

Sheik is only slightly in Sheik's favor, because Ness can easily take advantage of her problematic endurance, and he could box her out in some instances. The matchup is way harder for Ness if Sheik wasn't nerfed.
Diddy is a bit of an issue for Ness though, although at not the same degree as the three mentioned characters.

How do you figure? Diddy still has one of the strongest MU charts in the game, doing well against almost all top tiers and high tiers, with very few losing MUs. I don't think he'll be much worse than 4th.

I agree that Pit feels very underwhelming. He's basically a jack-of-all-trades, master of none, in a game like Smash where most characters have stupid tools. Even then, Pit's overall tools are not exactly bad, and his MU spread isn't terrible by any means. He probably belongs somewhere between #30 and #35 on the list. His current 4BR placement seems fairly accurate to me.

Wario is slightly overrated by some people, in my opinoin. Glutonny is just a really, really good player. Wario might be bottom 15 (not bottom 10 though). Wario has several -2 MUs vs the top tiers, and Cloud could potentially even be a -3 MU, and his MU spread against high tiers isn't exactly good either. I'd say his current 4BR placement is fairly accurate.

Ditto, although I would like to see Glutonny in the United States regardless.

 

[Locke 06]

Pit is undertuned in neutral, but is fine there.

His aerials are safer when autocanceled and SH FAir is basically his grounded poke.

Cci loves to talk about "lack of safe grounded pokes" when only the top tier dtilts really use them as a poke. Sheik/ZSS/Cloud/Corrin/Mario don't use "grounded pokes" in their neutral and their neutrals are considered good.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

What about Sheik and Diddy? Both out-neutral and outpunish Ness hard.

He loses to both but Diddy is not a big loss just slightly in his favor. Diddy definitely wins neutral, controls the pace with banana in hand and keeps him at the ledge very easily but Ness likes fast fallers, especially ones with no air speed like Diddy it makes combos much easier on Diddy, S1 consistently takes Diddy from zero to 60 off one neutral win and that's before knocking him off stage. Unless Diddy has banana in hand Ness can safely place his aerials on Diddy's shield giving him good mix ups for finding an opening. Diddy has his Fair but other than that none of his moves are straight beating Ness' moves and Fair isn't safe if Diddy fastfalls, allowing for a punish. Monkey Flip loses a lot of use against Ness, he can duck completely under it and punish better than shielding it or he can use his great pivot grab to punish and we know how good Ness' throws are. MFlip off stage as a recovery option also gets stuffed with PKT' tail causing Diddy to come low and due to PKT's electric properties if his barrels get touched by PKT's tail it's likely gonna gimp him. The key to winning this MU is to neutralize Banana's threat as much as possible.

Shiek is in a weird spot, most Ness players used to see it as one of of not his worst MU but that's changing. Shiek does completely shut Ness' neutral down. Needles keep him out for free Ness is too slow to deal with them. Sheik will keep Ness in disadvantage most of the game, has a million ways to gimp him if he loses his DJ off stage and does oppress him. But as we know Sheik is very fragile, being easy to combo character at that and Ness is in no short supply of kill power and combos. Ness does not need to win neutral but a few times to take stocks and if the Ness player can avoid getting gimped and avoid her kill setups he gets loaded with rage and will start killing her with Bthrow at 78 or up air at 90 with lots of rage. Shiek has to play very careful and defensive about in this MU, I personally have it in a range between 60-40 and 55-45 along with Marthcina and I do believe Mr. R has it as -1 in his latest chart and him and S1 play often. Also stay off FD in this MU.


Also Cloud most definitely beats Ness 60-40, unlike Marthcina he has safe disjoints AND speed. Marthcina has superior range and has safe ones but they lack the speed Cloud has. Ness can corner or force bad spacing on Marthcina much easier, he juggles them easier and traps them at the ledge better. Cloud simply moves too fast for Ness to eventually corner with a shield and approach method and he has nothing that he can challenge Cloud's aerials with, so he's forced to take much more risks by either preemptively stuffing Cloud's aerials or waiting for the Cloud to mess up with a grounded option which shouldn't happen often given how easy he can keep Ness away with a mix of Bair and Fair on shield.

 

[The_Bookworm]

He loses to both but Diddy is not a big loss just slightly in his favor. Diddy definitely wins neutral, controls the pace with banana in hand and keeps him at the ledge very easily but Ness likes fast fallers, especially ones with no air speed like Diddy it makes combos much easier on Diddy, S1 consistently takes Diddy from zero to 60 off one neutral win and that's before knocking him off stage. Monkey Flip loses a lot of use against Ness, he can duck completely under it and punish better than shielding it or he can use his great pivot grab to punish and we know how good Ness' throws are. MFlip off stage as a recovery option also gets stuffed with PKT' tail causing Diddy to come low and due to PKT's electric properties if his barrels get touched by PKT's tail it's likely gonna gimp him. The key to winning this MU is to neutralize Banana's threat as much as possible.

Shiek is in a weird spot, most Ness players used to see it as one of of not his worst MU but that's changing. Shiek does completely shut Ness' neutral down. Needles keep him out for free Ness is too slow to deal with them. Sheik will keep Ness in disadvantage most of the game, has a million ways to gimp him if he loses his DJ off stage and does oppress him. But as we know Sheik is very fragile, being easy to combo character at that and Ness is in no short supply of kill power and combos. Ness does not need to win neutral but a few times to take stocks and if the Ness player can avoid getting gimped and avoid her kill setups he gets loaded with rage and will start killing her with Bthrow at 78 or up air at 90 with lots of rage. Shiek has to play very careful and defensive about in this MU, I personally have it in a range between 60-40 and 55-45 along with Marthcina and I do believe Mr. R has it as -1 in his latest chart and him and S1 play often. Also stay off FD in this MU.


Also Cloud most definitely beats Ness 60-40, unlike Marthcina he has safe disjoints AND speed. Marthcina has superior range and has safe ones but they lack the speed Cloud has. Ness can corner or force bad spacing on Marthcina much easier, he juggles them easier and traps them at the ledge better. Cloud simply moves too fast for Ness to eventually corner with a shield and approach method and he has nothing that he can challenge Cloud's aerials with, so he's forced to take much more risks by either preemptively stuffing Cloud's aerials or waiting for the Cloud to mess up with a grounded option which shouldn't happen often given how easy he can keep Ness away with a mix of Bair and Fair on shield.

Marth in particular, does better than Lucina and Cloud, thanks to his tippers.

 

[MercuryPenny]

ZSS/[...]Mario don't use "grounded pokes" in their neutral and their neutrals are considered good.

i have heard no-one claim either of these characters have a good neutral

 

[The_Bookworm]

i have heard no-one claim either of these characters have a good neutral

ZSS doesn't exactly have a good nuetral, but Mario has one of the best nuetral games thanks to his great frame data, with moves of low start-up and ending lag, making it difficult to punish him a lot of times.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Marth in particular, does better than Lucina and Cloud, thanks to his tippers.

I don't think so, Marth's tippers grant him more reward for a well spaced attack however that comes at the cost of less knockback, hitstun and most importantly safety for less than ideal spacing while Lucina has consistency in these situations that Marth doesn't. It's not a huge factor in both of their Ness MUs but I do think it gives Lucina a small edge over Marth in this matchup. Marthcina cannot however spam hitboxes that Ness can't deal with constantly like Cloud can.

 

[Deleted member]

How do you figure? Diddy still has one of the strongest MU charts in the game, doing well against almost all top tiers and high tiers, with very few losing MUs. I don't think he'll be much worse than 4th.

Yes, but people overlook his flaws. For example, that recovery is very exploitable. Just hit it and he dies in a shot, kind of like Cloud. Except Diddy's recovery is obviously slightly better. Diddy also sacrifices a lot of better options when just relying on a banana too much. Also Diddy Kong is kind of easy to combo actually, good ladder food for MK ( although Diddy Kong wins the MK matchup easily ). Am I the only one who thinks Diddy Kong is overrated? Albeit Diddy Kong is still at top 5/4 character, but not top three. Diddy did do pretty well without ZeRo in Frostbite 2018 though.

In my opinion Diddy has worse flaws than Sheik.

 

[MERPIS]

ZSS doesn't exactly have a good nuetral, but Mario has one of the best nuetral games thanks to his great frame data, with moves of low start-up and ending lag, making it difficult to punish him a lot of times.

Wait, doesnt zss have exactly that as well bar grab?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

If you stick to one character discord, it can appear that your character is talkes a-lot meta-wise.

As for this thread we love to talk about top tiers and characters that impress us. Some user said something like this either in the V2 or V3 thread.

I just think it's a bad questin drpending on where you go to look for you answer.

 

[Minordeth]

Pit has no meta relevance at this point. He’s the Smash 4 version of a bad horror movie:

Serviceable only when you are drunk, and certainly won’t make any waves because there isn’t much there to actually scare you.

 

[MistressRemilia]

RE: Pit

While not the most impressive fighter out there, there's a bunch of fairly strong assets about Pit that people tend to forget. His Out of Shield game is rather potent, given his underrated dash attack, with its respectable frame data & excellent reach. Its utility is most notable in the likes of Sheik vs Pit, where Sheik's poorly spaced needle throw could result in a punish, when other characters wouldn't have been able to do much.

It's been told already, but Pit's ability to catch landings is quite formidable, thanks to how flexible arrows are, and how easy it is to frame trap with them to get the likes of UpSmash to punish the subsequent airdodge. That & the angle of UpThrow should allow Pit to potentially rack up a lot of damage. It should be mentioned that, as a whole, Pit's grab game is pretty potent, with no empty % whatsoever & plenty of mixups, with 4 reasonably good throws. This, along with respectable mobility, the aforementioned reach in his defensive out of shield game, and retreating pokes, gives the character a neutral that can't be overly slept on until a sizable lead has been reached. Even the jumps offer some mixups with the arrows, offering Pit enough of a high range game.

But yeah, unfortunately, when you're never really dealing more than 30% out of a neutral win, and that your neutral is best described as " respectable ", you won't have that much of a good time against the higher ranked characters of Smash 4, especially given the poor nature of Pit's range. Quite frankly, it has been shown that Pit could defend himself reasonably against Cloud back then, with Earth's upset over Tweek & a certain mastery of the landing catches, but this was at a time where Cloud hadn't really reached that much potency, with many noticeable repeated mistakes & needless commitments.

So yeah, over time, i believe people learned about space awareness & the need to avoid needless commitments, especially when we consider that Smash 4 has evolved to punish more & more roughly for these, and with such skills and the time needed to figure out the basics of Pit when fighting one, the character shouldn't ( & probably won't ) be winning much.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Pit has no meta relevance at this point.

Mid tiers in general tend to have limited meta relevance, at least as solo mains (some mid tiers, like Bowser and Donkey Kong, can be quite scary as counter-picks, although they seem to be getting less prevalent lately), at least in higher levels of play. Even many characters in B tier have fairly limited representation at top level. It makes sense, since if you're playing to win, why not pick one of the best characters? It's still important to have some MU experience since you might run into a good Japanese Duck Hunt or Link or Pit at some tournaments.

Yes, but people overlook his flaws. For example, that recovery is very exploitable. Just hit it and he dies in a shot, kind of like Cloud.

How many MU does his poor recovery make him lose? Zero? How many (and which) MUs do you think Diddy loses, anyway? That number probably greatly affects his standing in the tier list; I'm inclined to believe that he only loses 1-2 MUs or so (Rosalina primarily, and only slightly).

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Yes, but people overlook his flaws. For example, that recovery is very exploitable. Just hit it and he dies in a shot, kind of like Cloud. Except Diddy's recovery is obviously slightly better. Diddy also sacrifices a lot of better options when just relying on a banana too much. Also Diddy Kong is kind of easy to combo actually, good ladder food for MK ( although Diddy Kong wins the MK matchup easily ). Am I the only one who thinks Diddy Kong is overrated? Albeit Diddy Kong is still at top 5/4 character, but not top three. Diddy did do pretty well without ZeRo in Frostbite 2018 though.

In my opinion Diddy has worse flaws than Sheik.

That's a fault of a player, not Diddy.

I think you said it already, but who's better than Diddy outside of bayo and cloud?

 

[Deleted member]

That's a fault of a player, not Diddy.

I think you said it already, but who's better than Diddy outside of bayo and cloud?

Easily Sheik. Fault of a player? There are still flaws that is not the fault of a player. People say "Wow, Diddy's match up is really good!" but Sheik's match up is better than Diddy's. Sheik only slightly loses to Rosa and that is not it. Diddy is known to slightly lose to Pikachu, Rosalina and Sheik ( Luigi and Lucario can count I guess ).
ZeRo does make a good point about his match-ups.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Diddy is a lot more easily punishable than people think. I agree with ZeRo that Diddy is overestimated.

 

[Lord Dio]

okay but really who's repping the pits now that earth is done? Who's been repping them?
at least villager has kept and aarvark

 

[Minordeth]

Mid tiers in general tend to have limited meta relevance, at least as solo mains (some mid tiers, like Bowser and Donkey Kong, can be quite scary as counter-picks, although they seem to be getting less prevalent lately), at least in higher levels of play. Even many characters in B tier have fairly limited representation at top level. It makes sense, since if you're playing to win, why not pick one of the best characters? It's still important to have some MU experience since you might run into a good Japanese Duck Hunt or Link or Pit at some tournaments.

It took a player with a top 10 neutral in the world to make Pit look formidable. And even then, it’s always been a losing battle.

I agree that mid tiers aren’t at the forefront of the meta. It’s why they are mid tiers. What I’m saying is that Pit has almost no relevance. Yeah he has some results, but let’s be real, if you play a top tier character, I wouldn’t be sweating the Pit MU too hard.

He just doesn’t put the fear of god in you, even with rage. If you have Link or Ike with stupid rage percent, they have a lot of buttons that can do you in fast.

In a game that has Mewtwo Shadowball, Bayo’s Witch Time, Cloud’s buttons in general, Diddy’s Banana, Sheik as a thing, and something like Instapin, Pit just doesn’t have the tools. He lost the arms race at the starting line.

Like, you sit down to play your next match at a tourney; this dude sits down right after you; you both are on the character select screen, and he chooses Pit.

Tell me your immediate reaction is anything other than, “Oh. It’s just Pit.”

 

[Rizen]

Yes, but people overlook his flaws. For example, that recovery is very exploitable. Just hit it and he dies in a shot, kind of like Cloud. Except Diddy's recovery is obviously slightly better. Diddy also sacrifices a lot of better options when just relying on a banana too much. Also Diddy Kong is kind of easy to combo actually, good ladder food for MK ( although Diddy Kong wins the MK matchup easily ). Am I the only one who thinks Diddy Kong is overrated? Albeit Diddy Kong is still at top 5/4 character, but not top three. Diddy did do pretty well without ZeRo in Frostbite 2018 though.

In my opinion Diddy has worse flaws than Sheik.

Both Diddy and Cloud's recoveries aren't as bad as they seem at first glance.
I was fighting Cloud as Link, I hit him offstage from across the stage, ran off the platform and Naired him. He got limit, upBed from near the kill plane and I dropped from the ledge and Naired the end of his recovery. He drifted back, upBed early as a mix up and survived. That's 3 hits without touching the stage. Cloud's air speed, high jumps and big sword are great for recovering. Only his non-limit upB is short and that has mix up options with the optional 2nd downward cut.

Diddy has a burst sideB and reverse banana pull as air momentum shifts that help make up for his poor air speed. His Fair has great reach. If you watch Zero upB, he curves it around opponents and rarely needs it near the stage because sideB so charging isn't a big issue.

Both can be snuffed but it takes a hard read or for them to be too low to avoid the attack.

 

[MERPIS]

Im just gonna throw out my opinion on this whole Pit thing, which is just a rehash of things everyone already knows, but here goes anyways..

Anything pit can do, some character-usually top tier, can do much better. Bayonetta, MK, Cloud, Mewtwo and so many others havs scarier punish games, when it comes to OOS games, Bayonetta, Sheik, afaik Fox, and Rosa all brutally crush his OOS game, since theirs is so much better, in terms of catching landings, he gets outdone by Sonic, Fox, Cloud, and Sheik, since they are much faster on the ground and can punish landings from further away. Pit is literally the average character, theres no real reason for him to exist outside of baby’s first competitive main. But the strengths of the top tiers and even some high tiers like Meta Knight completely overshadow his own.

 

[Shaya]

My immediate reaction to a Pit pick in tournaments is
"oh lord here comes the dodge down smash spam".

I think contrary to beliefs stated here, DLC hurt him less than the shield mechanics patch and the overall 'buffing' of shield safety in particular aerials (DLC of course were generally pretty blessed in this department).
Power shield smash attack punishes were essentially nullified throughout most of the cast - just to make Sheik ever so slightly worse. Being a multi hit attacker also hurt what shield lock shenanigans he could exploit, hurting his safety comparatively to mostly everyone else's massive gains.
For Pit, he was quite potent at it. He could keep the dash attacks and grabs going until one power shield came along and then voila, an fsmash that could kill at the ledge at 70% with solid range.
Everyone's generally too frame safe for stuff like that to work 'reliably' anymore.

 

[Minordeth]

My immediate reaction to a Pit pick in tournaments is
"oh lord here comes the dodge down smash spam".

This is actually an acceptable second answer.

I think contrary to beliefs stated here, DLC hurt him less than the shield mechanics patch and the overall 'buffing' of shield safety in particular aerials (DLC of course were generally pretty blessed in this department).
Power shield smash attack punishes were essentially nullified throughout most of the cast - just to make Sheik ever so slightly worse. Being a multi hit attacker also hurt what shield lock shenanigans he could exploit, hurting his safety comparatively to mostly everyone else's massive gains.
For Pit, he was quite potent at it. He could keep the dash attacks and grabs going until one power shield came along and then voila, an fsmash that could kill at the ledge at 70% with solid range.
Everyone's generally too frame safe for stuff like that to work 'reliably' anymore.

Yeah, even without DLC, Pit still didn’t stand out much. Like, the era of the three blonde Gods of Smash 4 had basically one notable Pit, who happened to have a neutral up in Zero’s realm.

If you took DLC out, 2018 Pit just doesn’t have the advantage state to compete with say, a 2018 Fox. Yeah, he has extended combos and whatnot, but nothing to be a consistent threat.

His Ftilt is baller, tho.