Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Lukingordex]

The thing about sheik is: we're humans and we commit mistakes, no matter how good as a player someone may be.

Maybe she could be considered the best character if the metagame was led by bots with perfect reaction, but that's not the case.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Perhaps low/mid level players shouldn't be expected to SDI properly

No, we are all expected to SDI properly because we play this game competitively.

Bayonetta the character, and her players by extension, are finally pushing the community to realize this.

We've had our hands held for far too long.

Our community is just experiencing a backslash/a minor set-back because they are just now coming to terms with this.

Enough is enough.

 

[Nobie]

I think there are a lot of parallels between the idea that Bayo drives away low level players and the environment of Smash 4 in the earliest days, back when the biggest scourge of budding players was...For Glory Little Mac.

Obviously the scale is different because those are people who maybe never competed in their life jumping online vs. local tournament scene players, but many of the arguments used against Bayo sound like the ones lobbed at Mac.

"The character ignores neutral." Good rolls and armor up the wazoo and a frame 1 jab.

"The character gets BS undeserved victories." Hello KO Punch.

One major difference is that Mac has a very clearly defined weakness. But for those fresh for glory faces, they still had to learn to deal with Mac's at their level (much like how mid level players are complaining about mid level Bayos and not Salem), or they would just SD and choose not to fight Mac. It becomes a matter of, is any given player willing to put in the time to try and overcome that latest hurdle, or is that the limit of their competitive spirit? Keep in mind that this is not saying that choosing to avoid playing against Mac or Bayo (or at all) is a wrong choice. However, whether it's learning to deal with armor or practicing proper SDI, it's still a challenge that you overcome or don't or can't. (BTW my SDI is garbage)

And what if Mac was top tier? What if he technically had weaknesses but could overcome them? Would it make KO Punch any less of an instant game changer? Would seeing 4 Little Macs drive people to call for bans? I think there's plenty of jank in this game, it's just that people are extra angry towards Bayo because of how she's designed to frustrate. If Mac were better, I think he'd be seen in a similar light.

 

[blackghost]

Vanish and Dair can also be Witch Timed on reaction.

Also, I apologize if I sound like a bit too much of a scrub, but could someone perhaps give a somewhat in-depth description of the various fighting ranges and how they're played? I'm finding it difficult to comprehend.

Shiek should never press dair. Like ever. And witch timing vanish gets bayo no reward at all so its not relevant

 

[Locke 06]

I think there are a lot of parallels between the idea that Bayo drives away low level players and the environment of Smash 4 in the earliest days, back when the biggest scourge of budding players was...For Glory Little Mac.

Obviously the scale is different because those are people who maybe never competed in their life jumping online vs. local tournament scene players, but many of the arguments used against Bayo sound like the ones lobbed at Mac.

"The character ignores neutral." Good rolls and armor up the wazoo and a frame 1 jab.

"The character gets BS undeserved victories." Hello KO Punch.

One major difference is that Mac has a very clearly defined weakness. But for those fresh for glory faces, they still had to learn to deal with Mac's at their level (much like how mid level players are complaining about mid level Bayos and not Salem), or they would just SD and choose not to fight Mac. It becomes a matter of, is any given player willing to put in the time to try and overcome that latest hurdle, or is that the limit of their competitive spirit? Keep in mind that this is not saying that choosing to avoid playing against Mac or Bayo (or at all) is a wrong choice. However, whether it's learning to deal with armor or practicing proper SDI, it's still a challenge that you overcome or don't or can't. (BTW my SDI is garbage)

And what if Mac was top tier? What if he technically had weaknesses but could overcome them? Would it make KO Punch any less of an instant game changer? Would seeing 4 Little Macs drive people to call for bans? I think there's plenty of jank in this game, it's just that people are extra angry towards Bayo because of how she's designed to frustrate. If Mac were better, I think he'd be seen in a similar light.

Armor is a natural fighting game mechanic and makes real world sense to most people in terms of, "he powered through my attack."

Sdi isn't. The comparison there is pretty weak imo.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Just came across images that explains Tdude's playstyles much quicker than I did. This comes straight from his Discord server and it fills in on some stuff that I missed.

Images are in the spoiler tab.

Spoiler: Images

 

[Nobie]

Armor is a natural fighting game mechanic and makes real world sense to most people in terms of, "he powered through my attack."

Sdi isn't. The comparison there is pretty weak imo.

Once upon a time, armor didn't exist in fighting games either. I can't tell you which game exactly was the first, but it had to be introduced.

But let's face it: a lot of Smashers have little experience with other fighters. It's one of the appeals of Smash as a series that many new players have gone "I don't know about SF/MK/KoF/whatever, but Smash looks nice." Armor might not have been new, but it was new to them. In that respect, having to learn the properties of something to deal with it isn't that different, even if one is way, way harder.

It was perhaps a bad idea of mine to use the term neutral because it implied players already well-versed in fighters for the Mac example.

 

[Locke 06]

Once upon a time, armor didn't exist in fighting games either. I can't tell you which game exactly was the first, but it had to be introduced.

But let's face it: a lot of Smashers have little experience with other fighters. It's one of the appeals of Smash as a series that many new players have gone "I don't know about SF/MK/KoF/whatever, but Smash looks nice." Armor might not have been new, but it was new to them. In that respect, having to learn the properties of something to deal with it isn't that different, even if one is way, way harder.

It was perhaps a bad idea of mine to use the term neutral because it implied players already well-versed in fighters for the Mac example.

It's just that armor makes real world sense and is mostly binary. My move doesn't work and acts as if it was blocked (but he takes damage). Move with armor = offensive move with a defensive aspect.

Sdi isn't binary and is hard to accurately control. If you sdi too hard, one thing may happen, sdi too soft, another happens, sdi the wrong way, etc. When can you sdi?

If you're a newer player to the game, you relate things to other experiences like real life. I get what you're saying, both are new mechanics to said player, but it feels like a stretch.

 

[Rizen]

Anyone who played Brawl finds SDI as natural as [redacted] at night.

 

[Minordeth]

It's just that armor makes real world sense and is mostly binary. My move doesn't work and acts as if it was blocked (but he takes damage). Move with armor = offensive move with a defensive aspect.


Sdi isn't binary and is hard to accurately control. If you sdi too hard, one thing may happen, sdi too soft, another happens, sdi the wrong way, etc. When can you sdi?


If you're a newer player to the game, you relate things to other experiences like real life. I get what you're saying, both are new mechanics to said player, but it feels like a stretch.

Somehow this turned into a Mega Post:

Yeaaah, I think I say this every three months, but Smash does a bad job of teaching deeper mechanics and systems.

Like, Super Armor is only intuitive up to a point. Any given SA on a move has a beginning and ending, so sometimes a move looks like it has Armor the whole time, but the character can be hit at times, too. New players won’t intuitively understand why or how to deal with it until they understand what frames are or the concept of a hurt and hitbox, or cool down, etc.

I’ll just take that analogy from Nobie and expand on it and say that beginner mechanics in fighters are generally easy to understand. Blocking, jumping, walking, dashing, etc., are part of learning the absolute basics of fighting games. They need to be intuitive because you need to quickly learn when to apply them to get the other, unsaid basics of fighting games, like spacing.

Deeper mechanics and attributes are less intuitive, being applicable to higher level play and usually necessary for success the higher you go.

Like, it should always be a natural progression from beginner to intermediate to advanced player. But not every player starts at the same level, and some characters will have mechanics and what not that rely on a better understanding of the game and are also coincidentally easy to use at the beginner level.

You know, like “Noob Stompers.” Or as I like to say, “Tough Love Letters from the Dev.”

At the beginner level, characters like Little Mac require some competency with beginner concept application to beat, but only beginner mechanical execution to win with. “When to shield, when to hit, when to retreat, when to dash in, when to grab” are a bit more involved than “when to rush in and when to hit Fsmash.”

Most players check out of the game competitively at this point. Every fighter, no matter how accessible, will end up with a larger casual base than competitive base. DBZF dropped 80% of its active users on Steam this week. Because of course.

For those that don’t drop out, they begin that journey of learning the game at a deeper, less intuitive level. So, yeah, SDI isn’t intuitive, but neither is DI.

Sometimes “intuitive” DI kills you.

Sometimes DI for the same thing depends on rage and will kill you for the DI you just did to get out of the move like a minute earlier (Oh Hai Boost Kick).

Sometimes, you wonder why intangibility, invincibility,
and transcendent are things.

Tiny note: And SDI should have been applied more rigorously as soon as people figured out you can SDI Diddy’s Usmash.

Tiny note 2: Also, notoriously, look at tumble as a mechanic. It’s required for navigating the Rosa MU, and it would be unreal for a new player to figure out. It’s apparently still hard for experienced players to figure out.

Tiny note 3: man, look at Guilty Gear. You have Roman Cancels, and more specific False Roman Cancels, then unrelated Guard Cancels. The name is not intuitive at all, but the training mode is actually competent... sooooo...

 

[Deleted member]

I said this before, but ZeRo and some others think Rosalina is the best non-DLC game.
I do think that Sheik is a little better than Rosa but Rosa has been pulling good results this year, not only from Frostbite 2018 with Dabuz.
-Her up air kills a lot earlier than most people think and is very dangerous
-Solid edge-guarder
-Very floaty which helps escape Sheik combos, however Meta Knight eats her instead as a result
-Great defensive play when the Luma is applied and can cause players to focus on killing the Luma instead of Rosa in some cases.
-Linear but good recovery
Those were some positives I mentioned, and she is a very good character overall. Now does this make her better than Diddy? I do not know, as Diddy's neutral is just bonkers. Diddy actually has been doing fine without the help of ZeRo, so I should stop the Diddy rant. We will see where he is in the next tier list. Rosa is just a hard character to master but you hit a skill ceiling a lot slower than other players who play characters like Cloud and Bayonetta.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Somehow this turned into a Mega Post:

Yeaaah, I think I say this every three months, but Smash does a bad job of teaching deeper mechanics and systems.

Like, Super Armor is only intuitive up to a point. Any given SA on a move has a beginning and ending, so sometimes a move looks like it has Armor the whole time, but the character can be hit at times, too. New players won’t intuitively understand why or how to deal with it until they understand what frames are or the concept of a hurt and hitbox, or cool down, etc.

I’ll just take that analogy from Nobie and expand on it and say that beginner mechanics in fighters are generally easy to understand. Blocking, jumping, walking, dashing, etc., are part of learning the absolute basics of fighting games. They need to be intuitive because you need to quickly learn when to apply them to get the other, unsaid basics of fighting games, like spacing.

Deeper mechanics and attributes are less intuitive, being applicable to higher level play and usually necessary for success the higher you go.

Like, it should always be a natural progression from beginner to intermediate to advanced player. But not every player starts at the same level, and some characters will have mechanics and what not that rely on a better understanding of the game and are also coincidentally easy to use at the beginner level.

You know, like “Noob Stompers.” Or as I like to say, “Tough Love Letters from the Dev.”

At the beginner level, characters like Little Mac require some competency with beginner concept application to beat, but only beginner mechanical execution to win with. “When to shield, when to hit, when to retreat, when to dash in, when to grab” are a bit more involved than “when to rush in and when to hit Fsmash.”

Most players check out of the game competitively at this point. Every fighter, no matter how accessible, will end up with a larger casual base than competitive base. DBZF dropped 80% of its active users on Steam this week. Because of course.

For those that don’t drop out, they begin that journey of learning the game at a deeper, less intuitive level. So, yeah, SDI isn’t intuitive, but neither is DI.

Sometimes “intuitive” DI kills you.

Sometimes DI for the same thing depends on rage and will kill you for the DI you just did to get out of the move like a minute earlier (Oh Hai Boost Kick).

Sometimes, you wonder why intangibility, invincibility,
and transcendent are things.

Tiny note: And SDI should have been applied more rigorously as soon as people figured out you can SDI Diddy’s Usmash.

Tiny note 2: Also, notoriously, look at tumble as a mechanic. It’s required for navigating the Rosa MU, and it would be unreal for a new player to figure out. It’s apparently still hard for experienced players to figure out.

Tiny note 3: man, look at Guilty Gear. You have Roman Cancels, and more specific False Roman Cancels, then unrelated Guard Cancels. The name is not intuitive at all, but the training mode is actually competent... sooooo...

Agreed, I play zard so I can DI but SDI? On that large frame? Forget it, so I have to figure out when certain characters are going to go for their combo starters and either shield or roll in order to avoid it. My guess is I'm intermediate level and I'm still figuring out how to dash shield, tech and tech roll, and trying to be aware so I don't spam air dodges that leave me open to easy punishes.
THIS ISN'T SIMPLE, it takes a good amount of brainpower to figure out the intermediate and advanced techniques and then switch between them on the fly.
On top of that depending on the character, you just might have to discard certain techniques because the character is so bad at them (has anyone tried to dash dance with zard? He takes so long to turn around you might as well just do a pivot and not bother)

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Just came across images that explains Tdude's playstyles much quicker than I did. This comes straight from his Discord server and it fills in on some stuff that I missed.

Images are in the spoiler tab.

Spoiler: Images

View attachment 136726 View attachment 136727 View attachment 136728

Is this a continuation of that response to my question? If so, how does this relate to playing at specific ranges?

 

[The_Bookworm]

I said this before, but ZeRo and some others think Rosalina is the best non-DLC game.
I do think that Sheik is a little better than Rosa but Rosa has been pulling good results this year, not only from Frostbite 2018 with Dabuz.
-Her up air kills a lot earlier than most people think and is very dangerous
-Solid edge-guarder
-Very floaty which helps escape Sheik combos, however Meta Knight eats her instead as a result
-Great defensive play when the Luma is applied and can cause players to focus on killing the Luma instead of Rosa in some cases.
-Linear but good recovery
Those were some positives I mentioned, and she is a very good character overall. Now does this make her better than Diddy? I do not know, as Diddy's neutral is just bonkers. Diddy actually has been doing fine without the help of ZeRo, so I should stop the Diddy rant. We will see where he is in the next tier list. Rosa is just a hard character to master but you hit a skill ceiling a lot slower than other players who play characters like Cloud and Bayonetta.

The title of best non-dlc character is mainly between Diddy, Sheik, and Rosalina (aka 3rd to 5th spot on the tier list). There are valid arguments for all three, which makes this unpredictable and interesting.

 

[Deleted member]

The title of best non-dlc character is mainly between Diddy, Sheik, and Rosalina (aka 3rd to 5th spot on the tier list). There are valid arguments for all three, which makes this unpredictable and interesting.

I could say that Fox will be on that spot, but only in the future. People claim Fox has a lot of good results and potential, but he just is not showing it enough to compete as the best non-DLC character.

I would say that Rosa and Fox are somewhat close to competing, and it is Sheik vs Diddy right now. To be honest, I personally think Sheik is better than Diddy Kong but that is just me. Did not Sheik pull of better results than Diddy in recent times like Frostbite 2018? Diddy may have a bonkers neutral but Sheik's match-up chart is amazing ( arguablly better than Cloud's ) and she is an amazing character on her own. The only flaw she truly has is her light weight and her problem with KOing, which makes her stressful to use against some heavy floaty characters like Samus.

 

[Rizen]

Did not Sheik pull of better results than Diddy in recent times like Frostbite 2018?

In all fairness, ZeRo quit recently. Diddy did better than Sheik until now.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I could say that Fox will be on that spot, but only in the future.

Either now or never, m8. It's not like anything changes aside from people's skill.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Skeeter Mania

Yes, it is a continuation.

You asked for:

Also, I apologize if I sound like a bit too much of a scrub, but could someone perhaps give a somewhat in-depth description of the various fighting ranges and how they're played? I'm finding it difficult to comprehend.

So I decided to talk about the different playstyles from Tdude's perspective with the hopes of explaining ranges through that method. I was unable to come up with a straight answer, so I took the opportunity to go in-depth over this topic.

I thought I covered that but if I did not, my bad. I was trying to show that there was no one specific answer like "play at X range for the entire match and victory is yours".

I was trying to show that depending on the players, the characters, the Yomi Levels, and the playstyles used in a given match, the preferred ranges that you want to play at can change. If the player you are facing shows that they are willing to adapt, then the ideal ranges can changes multiple times in the course of a match or a set. Vice versa for if they choose not to adapt. Now you are allowed to continue with your current playstyle and in turn, range, since it has proven effective and the opponent has been unsuccessful in finding the counter to your play.

The second post was a shortened version of the first post that can be easier to understand for some, in the case that the first post confused or intimidated readers.

That is why I decided to add it. It also goes over a few things I missed in the previous post.

If what I posted does not make sense or missed the mark, another user can try explaining fighting ranges.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Either now or never, m8. It's not like anything changes aside from people's skill.

Fox is very strong, but not top 5 (maybe 5th though, but right now no). He currently competes with ZSS and Sonic for the 6th to 8th spot. I personally think there is a marginal gap between 8th place and 9th place (aka Mario).


Here is a recently posted video from Rush Hour Smash that I think you guys are going to like.
(Warning: This video does contain profanity.)

 

[Lord Dio]

Like, Super Armor is only intuitive up to a point. Any given SA on a move has a beginning and ending, so sometimes a move looks like it has Armor the whole time, but the character can be hit at times, too. New players won’t intuitively understand why or how to deal with it until they understand what frames are or the concept of a hurt and hitbox, or cool down, etc.

I’ll just take that analogy from Nobie and expand on it and say that beginner mechanics in fighters are generally easy to understand. Blocking, jumping, walking, dashing, etc., are part of learning the absolute basics of fighting games. They need to be intuitive because you need to quickly learn when to apply them to get the other, unsaid basics of fighting games, like spacing.

Deeper mechanics and attributes are less intuitive, being applicable to higher level play and usually necessary for success the higher you go.

Like, it should always be a natural progression from beginner to intermediate to advanced player. But not every player starts at the same level, and some characters will have mechanics and what not that rely on a better understanding of the game and are also coincidentally easy to use at the beginner level.

You know, like “Noob Stompers.” Or as I like to say, “Tough Love Letters from the Dev.”

At the beginner level, characters like Little Mac require some competency with beginner concept application to beat, but only beginner mechanical execution to win with. “When to shield, when to hit, when to retreat, when to dash in, when to grab” are a bit more involved than “when to rush in and when to hit Fsmash.”

Tiny note 3: man, look at Guilty Gear. You have Roman Cancels, and more specific False Roman Cancels, then unrelated Guard Cancels. The name is not intuitive at all, but the training mode is actually competent... sooooo...

This. Roman cancels are kinda like L-cancels, and it takes time to get to figure out when, where, and how to use it probably (as it wastes tension)

Also, I'm going to bring up a different fighter as it's an equally good comparison, Skullgirls. I was actually just playing it for the first time yesterday (it's a game I want to get invested in tbh), and boy oh boy, playing against an actual opponent, Big Band and Beowulf feel so much like Mac and Ryu. Big Band has armor on a ton of attacks, and like mac you have to time your attacks better in order to properly fight him. Beowulf's moves have armor and frame data that feels like being TRSK'ed, eexcept you're getting TRSK'ed multiple times in under 30 seconds and it hurts just as much (which is fair considering he uses a giant demon fist a la bayo), but after going into the tutorial and starting it up, I began to get the hang of things, and with a little practice will likely do better.

Fighters are an excellent example of having to put in a lot of time and effort into learning the game and how it works if you want to play competitively. They're also a lot more balanced than smash, with characters who at times can be dumber than bayo and cloud.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

This conversation took place two days ago in the Bayonetta Discord.

Spoiler: Discord conversation

Here was my response:

"I agree with what you guys said earlier about smash players using broken and overpowered wrong. I feel like they have never experienced a combo or an infinite in a traditional fgc game. I also don't think witch time is broken or the ladder combos. I'm used to touch of death stuff.

I guess not being able to play the game is broken in and of itself to smash players. I never really thought that smash players did not play other games. That gives me a new perspective on their complaints.

I agree with them.

-

On a similar note, the Beefy Smash Doods uploaded this two days ago.

And Zero uploaded this a few minutes ago.

Edit: Just finished the Zero video.

When he talked about tournaments with the Frostbite 2018 numbers and logo on screen. I thought those were official quotes or something from the staff. When I looked at the top left corner of his video it said that his sources were Reddit. I may go back and read the quotes and the tweets he shared but during the video I just assumed they were all complaints so I did not bother reading them.

When he talked about the game being old and losing interest, I had to disagree with him there. UMVC3 thrived for 7 years with all of it's glitches, broken characters, infinites, and overturned X-Factor. In my memory, their scenes rule on the infinite was that players were only limited to 3 repetitions of it back to back during a combo.

Now that was years ago, so as of now and the past couple of years that I have solely focused on Smash 4, this ruling may have changed.

Spoiler: More on Ultimate Marvel Vs. Capcom 3

The game even had unblockables in it that were inescapable. Plenty of UMVC3's had infinites. In fact, for the character Dark Phoenix, if you wanted to kill her in a combo without forcing her to revive into her buffed form, you would have to perform a specfic set of actions that the opponent could not avoid to even stand a chance. And that itself did not even guarantee you a victory.

I'll link a video of one of the infinites and another showing the anti-Dark Phoenix tech.

The Dark Phoenix tech I was referring to is basically summed up as using an X factor activation to punish the team aerial combo "counter move" and then immediately do another team aerial combo so you can steal a super meter from Phoenix and then proceed to kill her off since she needs 5 super meters when she dies to be revived. This is not suppose to be feasible in normal gameplay but because you used X-Factor to avoid the counter attack and cancel your team aerial combo, you are allowed a second one while the enemy is unavailable to do anything against it. It's the first clip here.

Here are a few of the various infinites. These are execution-heavy and can be used to stall for timeouts.

Melee has been fortunate enough to strive longer than UMVC3, along with the fact that the vocal community of the FGC did not want them there. The only other two games that I know of that survived a long time were MVC2 all the way back from the arcade days and the Street Fighter 2 series. Even Street Fighter x Tekken still has an active scene although it is small, MVCI too; actually the various side tournaments that take place at different FGC tournaments is proof of players keeping their game's scene alive.

Spoiler: More on Marvel vs. Capcom 2

Players still bring their Dreamcast, PS2, and Xbox 360 consoles to tournaments to this day; I saw it happened in 2016 and there is a VOD from a recent tournament this year where they play on Dreamcast.

Spoiler: More on Marvel vs. Capcom 2

To me this is very reminiscent of Melee players carrying CRT's and Gamecube consoles which is now kind-of similar to us since we are still playing on the Wii U even though there iz a new Nintendo Console on the market. I'll add in a MVC2 video.

Our scene may only die if we keep spreading the mentality that it is dying and everyone listens to the people that say the same.

-

As for Skullgirls, I cannot comment much on it as I played it casually. In tournaments though, there are combos that are technically infinites since players have found ways to get around the game's built-in infinite prevention system by using guaranteed resets. Speaking of Skullgirls, that game and UMVC3 along with MVCI, has guaranteed guard string combos that chip you out to death.

 

[ARISTOS]

I agree that everyone benefits from playing other FGs/competitive sports in general.

I feel like they have never experienced a combo or an infinite in a traditional fgc game. I also don't think witch time is broken or the ladder combos. I'm used to touch of death stuff.

Smash plays differently from other fighting games. Touch of death means different things in different games- in a Marvel game, ToD is no issue (you have three characters). A touch of death in Pokken/another slower game is a poorly designed system.

As far as broken vs overpowered is concerned, the two terms have been used very interchangeably over time. I prefer to focus on whether an aspect is degenerative vs just being very strong. And things can be both very strong and degenerative, strong without being degenerative (and maybe even positive!), and degenerative without being very strong.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I agree there. I just think that when Smash 4 players see something really strong they are too quick to call it overpowered and broken before they can fully understand the counterplay behind it. I think we throw in the towel too fast.

By touch of death, I was mainly comparing those combos with the likes of the Bayonetta combos.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

A touch of death in Pokken/another slower game is a poorly designed system.

Why's that? What makes you think MvC's way is better?

 

[ARISTOS]

Why's that? What makes you think MvC's way is better?

No way is better, its just the design of the game. In MvC the building blocks are available for most seasoned players to melt health bars without many neutral interactions. Pokken is not designed heavily like that. Even the characters most built to melt health bars (Garchomp/Machamp) still require a couple of neutral reads (though Pokken isn't the best example, you still lose a ton of health off little mistakes).

People are generally fine with either as long as it seems consistent.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

While everyone discuss about the Bayonetta hate, I want ask something today.

I'm pretty sad that the Smash 4 competitve scene has drop in quality, but Melee still held strong. While Melee has considerable less entrants in G5 than last year and its number of entrants decline slightly worse than Smash 4 (339 drop comparing to 338 drop), Melee still has more than 1,000 entrants and it's viewership still held strong, peak by around 84K (The viewership drop when Mang0 lost and since he is a crowd favorite soo...).

So I want to ask everyone a question, why hasn't the popularity of Melee drop so significantly and doesn't recieve much hate than Smash 4?

...


I saw people asking a question that it looks quite interesting and I want to give it a response.

Question: If the people complain about Bayonetta ruining the game and the meta, why hasn't the people complain about Fox ruining Melee significantly?

Answer: Fox in Melee , despite being the best, has flaws that are more noticable than Bayo. Fox lack good range, his recovery, while travels long and has options, are linear and can be exploited by capes or aerials. He is combo food as he is rather light and fast-faller. His match-up spread, while dominant, can be expoited if done right. Look at Hungrybox, despite Fox being the worst matchup for Jigglypuff, he can overcome the matchup since Fox's weaknesses are noticable. Jigglypuff is a good edgeguarder and since Fox's recovery is linear, she can take down Fox's recovery rather easily. Fox's short range benefits Jigglypuff as her infamous back-air can interrupt Fox's aerials. Fox being light makes it much easier to kill him with rest than any other characters in the game.

Also, Fox as a fast-faller means that he is especially suspectable for chain grabs, heavy combos, and tech-chases. Sheik, Captain Falcon, Dr. Mario, Pikachu, and Yoshi can body Fox because of this. Finally, he is just a hard-to-learn, fun character. Sure he has the option of being laser heavy, but he has explosive momentum and he is fast at comboing. Playing as Fox takes time and skill as players must learn to L-canceling, Wave-Shine, Wave Dashing, Shield Dropping, and many more to be an optimal Fox player. His overwhelming strengths combining with his noticable weaknesses balance him to the point that he is over-powered, but NOT over powered enough to cause unfairness to the opponent and to the viewers.

Comparing to Bayonetta, she's has fantastic edgeguarding tools, a tricky recovery, long and disjointed range, not combo-food, and she has fantastic options that surpasses many of Melee Fox's moves such as Witch Time, Bat Within, and Witch Twist. Bayonetta's matchups, while she can struggle a bit against high-tier characters and mid-tier in certain situations (Ex: Pikachu, Ness, Lucas, Little Mac), she can literally destroyed them no matter what as her options overwhelm them. Her weaknesses were not as notable as Fox in Melee. Yes, she is a light character and she could be SDI, but it is super tricky to execute her from the fact that A. She can escape dire situations by Bat Within, B. She can kill and ladder opponents early if done right, and C. SDI is hard from the fact that you must mash the controller, meaning that the controller will have a much likely chance to break. Lastly her jank led to little or skill involvement. Bat Within, Witch Twist, and Witch Time can make her a low risk high reward character.
While the skill time with Bayonetta can take weeks, or months to be an optimal player, she requires low skill at all.
Thus her strengths were unbalanced and her weaknesses are not noticable enough to balance her. This cause unfairness to the opponent and to the viewer.

TLDR, While Fox's strengths overwhelmed his weakness, his weakness such as being a light character, a fast faller, linear recovery, sub-par range are noticable enough to balance him just right to make him a fun character to play and watch. While Bayonetta can be provoked, her weaknesses such as being a light-weight character, lackluster neutral, and her combo game can be SDI'ed, her strengths shove her weaknesses to the cabinet as Bat Within, Witch Twist, Witch Time, and jank allows her to cover up her weaknesses. This means that she doesn't have much balance, thus she is a hated character to many smasher's eyes.

 

[The_Bookworm]

While everyone discuss about the Bayonetta hate, I want ask something today.

I'm pretty sad that the Smash 4 competitve scene has drop in quality, but Melee still held strong. While Melee has considerable less entrants in G5 than last year and its number of entrants decline slightly worse than Smash 4 (339 drop comparing to 338 drop), Melee still has more than 1,000 entrants and it's viewership still held strong, peak by around 84K (The viewership drop when Mang0 lost and since he is a crowd favorite soo...).

So I want to ask everyone a question, why hasn't the popularity of Melee drop so significantly and doesn't recieve much hate than Smash 4?

...


I saw people asking a question that it looks quite interesting and I want to give it a response.

Question: If the people complain about Bayonetta ruining the game and the meta, why hasn't the people complain about Fox ruining Melee significantly?

Answer: Fox in Melee , despite being the best, has flaws that are more noticable than Bayo. Fox lack good range, his recovery, while travels long and has options, are linear and can be exploited by capes or aerials. He is combo food as he is rather light and fast-faller. His match-up spread, while dominant, can be expoited if done right. Look at Hungrybox, despite Fox being the worst matchup for Jigglypuff, he can overcome the matchup since Fox's weaknesses are noticable. Jigglypuff is a good edgeguarder and since Fox's recovery is linear, she can take down Fox's recovery rather easily. Fox's short range benefits Jigglypuff as her infamous back-air can interrupt Fox's aerials. Fox being light makes it much easier to kill him with rest than any other characters in the game.

Also, Fox as a fast-faller means that he is especially suspectable for chain grabs, heavy combos, and tech-chases. Sheik, Captain Falcon, Dr. Mario, Pikachu, and Yoshi can body Fox because of this. Finally, he is just a hard-to-learn, fun character. Sure he has the option of being laser heavy, but he has explosive momentum and he is fast at comboing. Playing as Fox takes time and skill as players must learn to L-canceling, Wave-Shine, Wave Dashing, Shield Dropping, and many more to be an optimal Fox player. His overwhelming strengths combining with his noticable weaknesses balance him to the point that he is over-powered, but NOT over powered enough to cause unfairness to the opponent and to the viewers.

Comparing to Bayonetta, she's has fantastic edgeguarding tools, a tricky recovery, long and disjointed range, not combo-food, and she has fantastic options that surpasses many of Melee Fox's moves such as Witch Time, Bat Within, and Witch Twist. Bayonetta's matchups, while she can struggle a bit against high-tier characters and mid-tier in certain situations (Ex: Pikachu, Ness, Lucas, Little Mac), she can literally destroyed them no matter what as her options overwhelm them. Her weaknesses were not as notable as Fox in Melee. Yes, she is a light character and she could be SDI, but it is super tricky to execute her from the fact that A. She can escape dire situations by Bat Within, B. She can kill and ladder opponents early if done right, and C. SDI is hard from the fact that you must mash the controller, meaning that the controller will have a much likely chance to break. Lastly her jank led to little or skill involvement. Bat Within, Witch Twist, and Witch Time can make her a low risk high reward character.
While the skill time with Bayonetta can take weeks, or months to be an optimal player, she requires low skill at all.
Thus her strengths were unbalanced and her weaknesses are not noticable enough to balance her. This cause unfairness to the opponent and to the viewer.

TLDR, While Fox's strengths overwhelmed his weakness, his weakness such as being a light character, a fast faller, linear recovery, sub-par range are noticable enough to balance him just right to make him a fun character to play and watch. While Bayonetta can be provoked, her weaknesses such as being a light-weight character, lackluster neutral, and her combo game can be SDI'ed, her strengths shove her weaknesses to the cabinet as Bat Within, Witch Twist, Witch Time, and jank allows her to cover up her weaknesses. This means that she doesn't have much balance, thus she is a hated character to many smasher's eyes.

Basically while Fox is overpowered, he doesn't take away from the game and has a greater skill curve, which makes him more fun to play and watch despite his clear dominance. He is even theorized to be unstoppable in competitive play (aka 20XX).

Bayonetta, while she is a very popular character in competitive play, isn't overpowered nor dominating, but she takes away from the game. Her strengths are not as strong as Fox's, but her weaknesses are less noticeable. This, combined with how frustrating she is to fight and the patience needed to win, makes her a very loathed character despite her lack of dominance. Characters in SSB4 doesn't have much limelight in spectators as well, such as Cloud and Sonic, due to most of these reasons.

There were three players playing Bayonetta at Frostbite top 8, but that is mainly due to the brackets, with those barely fighting any Bayo slayers until top 8, while her other slayers were in Japan. Either way, Dabuz still won that tournament. How much the character is loathed can be definitely observed by the fact that Bayonetta only won three majors after her nerfs, while Melee Fox won the majority of majors (or tournaments in general) ever since 2016, with an evergrowing playerbase (HBox and PPMD are the only gods who doesn't use Fox in tournaments). When Bayo players approach grand finals, everyone complains saying "The game is dead. She is about to win [her fourth major] tournament due to her 'overpowered' moves. She carries bad players!!" If SSB4 parishes, it is due to everyone crying about Bayo, despite her lack of dominance.

 

[WiFi]

Basically while Fox is overpowered, he doesn't take away from the game and has a greater skill curve, which makes him more fun to play and watch despite his clear dominance. He is even theorized to be unstoppable in competitive play (aka 20XX).

Bayonetta, while she is a very popular character in competitive play, isn't overpowered nor dominating, but she takes away from the game. Her strengths are not as strong as Fox's, but her weaknesses are less noticeable. This, combined with how frustrating she is to fight and the patience needed to win, makes her a very loathed character despite her lack of dominance. Characters in SSB4 doesn't have much limelight in spectators as well, such as Cloud and Sonic, due to most of these reasons.

There were three players playing Bayonetta at Frostbite top 8, but that is mainly due to the brackets, with those barely fighting any Bayo slayers until top 8, while her other slayers were in Japan. Either way, Dabuz still won that tournament. How much the character is loathed can be definitely observed by the fact that Bayonetta only won three majors after her nerfs, while Melee Fox won the majority of majors (or tournaments in general) ever since 2016, with an evergrowing playerbase (HBox and PPMD are the only gods who doesn't use Fox in tournaments). When Bayo players approach grand finals, everyone complains saying "The game is dead. She is about to win [her fourth major] tournament due to her 'overpowered' moves. She carries bad players!!" If SSB4 parishes, it is due to everyone crying about Bayo, despite her lack of dominance.

Mew2king is a Marth and Sheik dual-main. He's the other person in the Five Gods aside from H-Box who doesn't use a spacy. Also, Fox just isn't a cancerous character to fight. He is definitely more predictable than Bayo, and if there's anything people like in a fighting game, its a character that doesn't have a overly dumb move. I'd say that Witch Time is better than Fox's shine, just because the reward Bayo gets from a Witch Time is far more massive than what Fox gets for landing one shine. It forces people to play neutral differently, which Fox doesn't really do. Also, Fox doesn't have an overly defensive playstyle, in fact, I'd say that Melee Fox has one of the most diverse playstyles ever, while with Bayo, you either get a Lima/Salem playstyle, or a Mistake/Captain Zack playstyle. Fox is just generally more tolerable to play against, and he has defined weaknesses that were exposed over Melee's history. People have had 10+ years to learn the Fox matchup, while we have had only, what, two years?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Mew2king is a Marth and Sheik dual-main. He's the other person in the Five Gods aside from H-Box who doesn't use a spacy. Also, Fox just isn't a cancerous character to fight. He is definitely more predictable than Bayo, and if there's anything people like in a fighting game, its a character that doesn't have a overly dumb move. I'd say that Witch Time is better than Fox's shine, just because the reward Bayo gets from a Witch Time is far more massive than what Fox gets for landing one shine. It forces people to play neutral differently, which Fox doesn't really do. Also, Fox doesn't have an overly defensive playstyle, in fact, I'd say that Melee Fox has one of the most diverse playstyles ever, while with Bayo, you either get a Lima/Salem playstyle, or a Mistake/Captain Zack playstyle. Fox is just generally more tolerable to play against, and he has defined weaknesses that were exposed over Melee's history. People have had 10+ years to learn the Fox matchup, while we have had only, what, two years?

How is Bayo's Witch Time better than Fox's shine?!? First of all, Bayo's witch time, although one of the best moves in the game, has the flaw of being weak to multi-hits, being less powerful if used consecutively, and it being a counter in general (aka grabbed, baited, and endlag). Fox's Shine comes out in frame one, invincible on that frame, and jump cancelled on frame 4. This makes it super safe, being able to get out bad spots, turn it into a bad spot for the opponent, an effective edge guarding move, perform stupid powerful combos, combo it into itself, safe pressure, the list goes on, all in an instant without much drawback at all. The thing is that one shine doesn't that much, but he is able to put it up so much (multi-shines) with all these advantages and fact that it can be jump cancelled. It is a way better move than Witch Time, and arguably the strongest move in the entire series (alongside Melee/Brawl Falco's laser and Brawl MK's Shuttle Loop).

M2K uses him as a relatively common secondary. Unlike back then, we have better technology to analyze a character's strengths and weaknesses (especially since SSB4 has less depth as a game), and Fox's true power wasn't realized until recent years, and has been dominating since. He does have some range issues, but his mobility and lasers more than make up for that.

 

[Minordeth]

Drive by post:

Most of the stuff in the very good Rush Hour Smash Video on Bayo was actually posted a bit back by our very own (and France’s best Bayo) @Myollnir.

He made a really simple, but thorough breakdown on the optimal DI/SDI for Bayo, condensed into something far more readable.

Here you go.

Also, for everyone: if you have any character that you struggle with, whether it’s Bayo, Sheik, or Cloud, or Wario, or something, really learning and playing as that character for even a week is priceless.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

So this is happening.

The 2GG twitter account is having a poll to ban Cloud in doubles, Bayonetta in Singles, ban Lylat, or allow Palutena Customs moves along with the Mii Fighters moves.

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/964285227853012992


Edit: It's here too.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7xusfd/is_this_what_you_all_really_want/

 

[The_Bookworm]

So this is happening.

The 2GG twitter account is having a poll to ban Cloud in doubles, Bayonetta in Singles, ban Lylat, or allow Palutena Customs moves along with the Mii Fighters moves.

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/964285227853012992

The professionals who replied are not a big fan of this.

I cannot believe they are actually doing this BS.

 

[Minordeth]

What a time to be alive:

1.) Ohhh open, online polls are an awful, awful way to measure real attitudes towards any given thing.

2.) I’ve seen this “Bayo combos are easy” meme a lot. And it’s maybe the biggest bit of misinformation running around. They are easy until you run into someone that knows even a little about how to counter them.

And then you find yourself with a Cloud that lives till 180% or a Rosa/ZSS/Mewtwo that kills you off the top for being on autopilot.

 

[blackghost]

What a time to be alive:

1.) Ohhh open, online polls are an awful, awful way to measure real attitudes towards any given thing.

2.) I’ve seen this “Bayo combos are easy” meme a lot. And it’s maybe the biggest bit of misinformation running around. They are easy until you run into someone that knows even a little about how to counter them.

And then you find yourself with a Cloud that lives till 180% or a Rosa/ZSS/Mewtwo that kills you off the top for being on autopilot.

After watching that new rushhour smash video in bayonetta that shows how little people know about her. Cosmos and tweek showed if you are continously dying to basic bayo combos its in you.

Also lol witchtime isnt better than shine or brawl mk. People need perspective these kind of statments are ridiculous. Melee foc shine is on of the best moves in fighting games EVER. Goes right there with vergil swords and shin akuma's entire moveset.

On the bright side if customs are trutl welcomed back (i give it a week before complaints about avoidable deaths start) my interest in this game may return. I can main who i actually wanted to play (palutena)

 

[Deleted member]

Also, for everyone: if you have any character that you struggle with, whether it’s Bayo, Sheik, or Cloud, or Wario, or something, really learning and playing as that character for even a week is priceless.

Huh, that is a nice way to learn. The only character I struggle fighting against truly is Bayonetta. As a Cloud main, how can I work this out? Can I use Sheik more often against Bayonetta? If I do not want to work with Sheik, how can Cloud punish Bayonetta hard, do I read the Witch-Times? Bayo is good at gimping and carrying me to death.

Thanks for the recommendations, Minordeth!

Mew2king is a Marth and Sheik dual-main. He's the other person in the Five Gods aside from H-Box who doesn't use a spacy. Also, Fox just isn't a cancerous character to fight. He is definitely more predictable than Bayo, and if there's anything people like in a fighting game, its a character that doesn't have a overly dumb move. I'd say that Witch Time is better than Fox's shine, just because the reward Bayo gets from a Witch Time is far more massive than what Fox gets for landing one shine. It forces people to play neutral differently, which Fox doesn't really do. Also, Fox doesn't have an overly defensive playstyle, in fact, I'd say that Melee Fox has one of the most diverse playstyles ever, while with Bayo, you either get a Lima/Salem playstyle, or a Mistake/Captain Zack playstyle. Fox is just generally more tolerable to play against, and he has defined weaknesses that were exposed over Melee's history. People have had 10+ years to learn the Fox matchup, while we have had only, what, two years?

This is a Smash 4 Competitive Analysis thread, not Melee. I am not a large fan of Melee being discussed here in large amounts, so lets move on.

 

[Krysco]

Lol, this community can be funny sometimes. Saw a few replies to that 2GG thing where people wanted Miis to have customs but Palu not to because 'Mii's aren't customs' ignoring the fact that they're both changing a special move, no matter what you call it, they're both unlocked from the start and they're both the most drastic changes and someone also said Palu shouldn't because the screen goes blue. May have been a joke but this community is perfectly fine with adding characters that require extra money to the game but going to the Mii Maker or the customs menu? Nope, **** those characters.

Melee has been surviving with PS1, a stage where at times, the best thing to do is literally sit there and do nothing and yet the idea of banning Lylat in Sm4sh is still alive. There has been videos showing why going through Lylat is a thing and how you can tell when it'll happen.

Dubs is a lost cause seeing as how this game started with G&W bucket being stupid and right after that got fixed, we got Cloud.

And the most shocking revelation of all, this game is ****ed since Bayo is in it. Not because she isn't banned mind you, because she's a playable character in the game. Don't ban her and people will quit watching, quit playing and keep whining, ban her and you get the same thing and this won't ever stop, no matter how op Bayo is or how much scrubs need to 'git gud'. Actually rather glad that I never got hooked to this game. I'm quite content being a spectator to it all.

Anyways, controversial opinions aside, I gotta pull an all nighter tonight for my shift tomorrow so I might delve back into the V1 again and make some progress. I can post what I've saved so far if anyone is curious. Can start some conversation, looking back at the good ol' days when we weren't talking about banning characters.

 

[WiFi]

How is Bayo's Witch Time better than Fox's shine?!? First of all, Bayo's witch time, although one of the best moves in the game, has the flaw of being weak to multi-hits, being less powerful if used consecutively, and it being a counter in general (aka grabbed, baited, and endlag). Fox's Shine comes out in frame one, invincible on that frame, and jump cancelled on frame 4. This makes it super safe, being able to get out bad spots, turn it into a bad spot for the opponent, an effective edge guarding move, perform stupid powerful combos, combo it into itself, safe pressure, the list goes on, all in an instant without much drawback at all. The thing is that one shine doesn't that much, but he is able to put it up so much (multi-shines) with all these advantages and fact that it can be jump cancelled. It is a way better move than Witch Time, and arguably the strongest move in the entire series (alongside Melee/Brawl Falco's laser and Brawl MK's Shuttle Loop).

M2K uses him as a relatively common secondary. Unlike back then, we have better technology to analyze a character's strengths and weaknesses (especially since SSB4 has less depth as a game), and Fox's true power wasn't realized until recent years, and has been dominating since. He does have some range issues, but his mobility and lasers more than make up for that.

Witch Time is better than shine in its own respective game. In Melee, Falco's Shine is arguably better, but no other character has a counter that can end up with 70%+ damage. Shine's a better move in terms of its versatility, but its not the only thing that defines the matchup. In Sm4sh, Witch Time is the defining feature of the Bayo matchup, along with you ability to punish and escape her combos. Also, as you've said, people had more time to deconstruct the Fox matchup, not with Bayonetta.

Huh, that is a nice way to learn. The only character I struggle fighting against truly is Bayonetta. As a Cloud main, how can I work this out? Can I use Sheik more often against Bayonetta? If I do not want to work with Sheik, how can Cloud punish Bayonetta hard, do I read the Witch-Times? Bayo is good at gimping and carrying me to death.

Thanks for the recommendations, Minordeth!

This is a Smash 4 Competitive Analysis thread, not Melee. I am not a large fan of Melee being discussed here in large amounts, so lets move on.

I was comparing the similarities between Witch Time and Shine, and how good moves they are, its a yellow topic, I still related it back to Smash 4.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Snip.

I am very, very interested in seeing what you have thus far.

 

[ARISTOS]

I am very, very interested in seeing what you have thus far.

I got some for free:

- Is Pikachu a top tier?
- Is Marth or Lucina better?
- Is X a hidden boss?

That's like half the thread

 

[ARGHETH]

I got some for free:

- Is Pikachu a top tier?
- Is Marth or Lucina better?
- Is X a hidden boss?

That's like half the thread

You forgot "Should Y get nerfed?"