Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[The_Bookworm]

Speaking of Bayonetta, might she actually lose to Corrin? Ryuga used to believe that (perhaps he still does). See:

pic.twitter.com/t6nXdIWZ9r

— ryuga (@trueRyuga) August 26, 2017

Corrin, apparently, won the last two sets he played against Salem, and is up 5-1 against Mistake recently. We can't base MU ratios strictly on player performance, of course, but it's worth considering (I'm personally leaning towards "It's even" and Cosmos being really good at the MU).

If Corrin turns out to slightly beat Bayonetta, I wonder if we'll see people pick up Corrin as a secondary for dealing with Bayonetta? Corrin should be fairly easy to pick up for most to players (she's a very fundamental-based character, and most top players have good fundamentals).

I am not very good at mashing, so my Luigi, Corrin, and Sonic is mediocre (since you need to mash cyclone, instant pin, and effectively use Spin Charge, respectively, to use those three at the fullest).

 

[WiFi]

I am not very good at mashing, so my Luigi, Corrin, and Sonic is mediocre (since you need to mash cyclone, instant pin, and effectively use Spin Charge, respectively, to use those three at the fullest).

Spin Charge isn't that hard to mash fast, Instant Pin and Cyclone are. Also you secondary Meta Knight, a character whose Neutral-B requires mashing to be used to its maximum effect. Smh. Anyways the easiest way to break out of Bayo combos is to not get caught in them in the first place, but like Cloud obtaining Limit, this is nearly impossible. You should probably make it a habit to DI down diagonally, so when Bayo uses AFBK, it misses you.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Instapin isn't even remotely hard to use (at least not if you're using a GameCube controller). Slide your thumb from B to A, bam, easy. Learning to time 17% bites is much, much harder, though top level players can probably get by with 15%, 16%, and 20% bites in a pinch. But really, instapin is super easy to learn.

 

[Laken64]

It would be easier to compare Smash 4 with Rivals of Aether or Brawlhalla, despite the obvious differences between games.

As a rivals player I'd disagree, they may both be platform fighters and draw some moves from characters from the smash series that's about all they have in comparison. Rivals was made to have a melee/PM pace when it comes to gameplay, that and a small cast of 14 in the end, all of which have the capability of taking a major. Theres also the fact that Rivals has devs that oversee the meta and act accordingly if something is clearly overpowered but I degress since you said obvious differences.

At the end of the day comparing one game to another is just a waste of time imo, you can complain about how brawl has MK and smash 4 has bayo all you want but it doesn't change the meta of your game if at all do anything. Like Dark Pch. said focus on the game you play and improve yourself and the meta from there. There are some merits to it but just focus on your own game.

I am not very good at mashing, so my Luigi, Corrin, and Sonic is mediocre (since you need to mash cyclone, instant pin, and effectively use Spin Charge, respectively, to use those three at the fullest).

small tip for instapin, you don't have to mash. If your special is b and attack is a you can input side b and get the jump and quickly slide your thumb to A to get instapin, its pretty easy to get since the timing really isn't that strict and you could get it within like 5 or 10 minutes.

 

[Large_Number_9]

As bad as Dedede is, His combo game is nothing to scoff at, shouldn't he at least be the F tier?



but its understandable cause them hitboxes

 

[The_Bookworm]

I didn't know that the pin initiates with the A button. It is suddenly so easy! OMG thanks!

 

[The_Bookworm]

Spin Charge isn't that hard to mash fast, Instant Pin and Cyclone are. Also you secondary Meta Knight, a character whose Neutral-B requires mashing to be used to its maximum effect. Smh. Anyways the easiest way to break out of Bayo combos is to not get caught in them in the first place, but like Cloud obtaining Limit, this is nearly impossible. You should probably make it a habit to DI down diagonally, so when Bayo uses AFBK, it misses you.

One thing to remember after watching Nairo vs Mistake: never DI upwards against a raged jank up B move like Bayonetta's. I don't really use Mach Tornado very often, but his Tornado his easy to mash (especially in comparison to Luigi's Cyclone).

As bad as Dedede is, His combo game is nothing to scoff at, shouldn't he at least be the F tier?



but its understandable cause them hitboxes

Losta luck getting the combos started though (RIP Dedede's grab range).

 

[Rizen]

As bad as Dedede is, His combo game is nothing to scoff at, shouldn't he at least be the F tier?



but its understandable cause them hitboxes

^the same can be said for Zelda's combos. Meme time! "Somebody has to be bottom tier!" They can do well, a solo Zelda got top 64 at the recent frost bite tourney. But bottom tiers are still worse than everybody else.

 

[The_Bookworm]

^the same can be said for Zelda's combos. Meme time! "Somebody has to be bottom tier!" They can do well, a solo Zelda got top 64 at the recent frost bite tourney. But bottom tiers are still worse than everybody else.

Bottom tier is removed as of the third list. If you referring to the lowest tier in the list, yes you are right. This isn't the first time Zelda reached top 64 at a major, but the Zelda in Frostbite didn't get too far.

 

[ARGHETH]

Instapin isn't even remotely hard to use (at least not if you're using a GameCube controller). Slide your thumb from B to A, bam, easy. Learning to time 17% bites is much, much harder, though top level players can probably get by with 15%, 16%, and 20% bites in a pinch. But really, instapin is super easy to learn.

It wasn't even hard on the 3ds lol

 

[The_Bookworm]

It wasn't even hard on the 3ds lol

Funny thing... I don't have a Wii U.
I am very solid on 3DS (knowing how to pivot, B-Reverse, (sometimes) perfect pivot, and I have broken survival DI), but I don't feel like getting a Wii U for just one game.
If you highlight over the Ness icon under my profile pic, you will notice it saying "Smash 3DS main".

 

[Rizen]

Bottom tier is removed as of the third list. If you referring to the lowest tier in the list, yes you are right. This isn't the first time Zelda reached top 64 at a major, but the Zelda in Frostbite didn't get too far.

Don't start with the glorified 'not' bottom tier junk. I'm sugar free.

Frostbite 2018 (866 Entrants) (Michigan)


49th: Onpu

 

[The_Bookworm]

Don't start with the glorified 'not' bottom tier junk. I'm sugar free.

?????
Forget it. Lets drop the subject.

 

[|RK|]

Okay, hopefully a lot of the post-tournament Bayonetta discussion is out of everyone's system.

Understandably, this is a thread on the competitive metagame, and Bayonetta is very much a part of the competitive metagame. This said, ban discussions are to go elsewhere.

Similarly, let's try to get this thread back on track to a higher level of conversation, yes? There are actually plenty of gems buried within the Bayonetta conversation to discuss.

For example, the entirety of Salem and Manny's discussion on improving Sonic:

Sonic just got me livid cause it’s either one random mixup and then nothing ever again or they try and get some jank and hope the gimmick of theirs keeps working later, like ????? IT SHOULD BE A TON OF JANK AND MIXUPS BUT OKAY.

— Salem (@SalemBane_) February 12, 2018

Some insight on why Sonic isn't getting any better, and how he could get better.

Similarly, the idea of every player adopting the tactics that others do is eye-opening. Not even just for Sonic, but I feel a number of players all go for the same options in the same situations. Bayonetta players are actually incredibly different, and while that *could* be the character's diverse options, it could honestly just be a flaw we miss. Fox mains, for example, are also pretty different in how they play him.

 

[FeelMeUp]

May as well drop this here.
https://clips.twitch.tv/ComfortableRepletePistachioTwitchRaid

Tweek's opinions on Bayo's even/losing matchups.
For those that can't watch:

For sure loses to:


Even or loses to:



Even or beats:


Even with:

 

[The-Technique]

While on the other side you have people completely shunning anyone and everyone's opinions/concerns who thinks she's unhealthy for the game, unreasonably misinterprets their issue, and making absurd statements that belittle or downplay others since "you're all too lazy because wiggling a stick fast is too much for you."

Alright, say what you like about Bayo being overtuned or unappealing for viewership, but accusing Bayonetta players of being in cahoots with TOs while having a thread like that on the front page of reddit deserves nothing less than contempt. That's mainly what Mr. R was blowing up on.

 

[|RK|]

May as well drop this here.
https://clips.twitch.tv/ComfortableRepletePistachioTwitchRaid

Tweek's opinions on Bayo's even/losing matchups.
For those that can't watch:

For sure loses to:


Even or loses to:



Even or beats:


Even with:

So, I'm curious if Tweek has an answer to why Bayo is even with or has a slight advantage over Rosa. I know Dabuz's most recent chart insinuated that Bayo is - or will be - Rosa's second-worst MU.

And secondly, Diddy. I know our own @Myollnir says Bayo loses to Diddy, but I've always gotten a "volatile even" sense. Diddy has the tools to combat her, sure. But what stops Bayo from just running away if she secures a lead?

Alright, say what you like about Bayo being overtuned or unappealing for viewership, but accusing Bayonetta players of being in cahoots with TOs while having a thread like that on the front page of reddit deserves nothing less than contempt. That's mainly what Mr. R was blowing up on.

This doesn't really have anything to do with the thread at this point.

 

[nannerham]

Alright, say what you like about Bayo being overtuned or unappealing for viewership, but accusing Bayonetta players of being in cahoots with TOs while having a thread like that on the front page of reddit deserves nothing less than contempt. That's mainly what Mr. R was blowing up on.

I wasn't really disagreeing with him at all in that regard you missed my point saying that people were coming up with absurd conspiracy theories and spreading misinformation l have absolutely no problems with him clearing things up, my main point was that both sides were acting rather irrational and were handling the situation rather poorly and there's not even an attempt to come to an understanding.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I already put this in the Bayonetta Counter Strategies thread but I've decided to share it here too.

Snagged this document from the Bayonetta Discord. It has all of their resource information in one document.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YjnOK9fLws6y4IwrEFOmpgM-KQRvDBTKrAMWJVwZzX0/edit?usp=sharing

So far I read part 1 & 2 of the guide, planking, fair 1 safety, the fun fact, optimal sdi, crouch hitbox, and their terminology. The lylat tilt link does not work.

Why it is difficult for players to restrain themselves when it comes to attacking? Over-extending your advantage when it is not guaranteed is what allows a Bayonetta player to land a Witch Time in the first place.

-

For Kamui, I found it easier to use B (special) to Z (grab) for the Instant Pin technique upon their release.

 

[Minordeth]

So, I'm curious if Tweek has an answer to why Bayo is even with or has a slight advantage over Rosa. I know Dabuz's most recent chart insinuated that Bayo is - or will be - Rosa's second-worst MU.

And secondly, Diddy. I know our own @Myollnir says Bayo loses to Diddy, but I've always gotten a "volatile even" sense. Diddy has the tools to combat her, sure. But what stops Bayo from just running away if she secures a lead?



This doesn't really have anything to do with the thread at this point.

My guess for Rosa is that he probably feels that once Bayos get better at getting rid of Luma and exerting more stage control, it will slide to Bayo’s favor more often than not.

Check out the Rosa MU breakdown on the discord stuff that NINTENDO Galaxy
acquired here.

A couple of key takeaways:

- Rosa doesn’t have to approach.
- She isn’t that hard to get a WTi on, but Luma has a certain distance that Rosa can set and WTi won’t be effective. So, free pressure.
- Being in or towards the corner is the worst spot.
- Rosa has a ridiculous ledge game.
- Air dodging when getting Uair’d is death time. The implication is that unless you can actually read the next juggle attempt, trying to spam for Bat Within is gonna get you killed.
- Rosa not that hard to combo or edge guard.

In practice, getting rid of Luma and maintaining stage control isn’t as natural for Bayo as it is for say, Cloud. Bayo has to take some degree of risk to eliminate Luma. Dash attack and Dair probably lead to the least amount of punishment, unless she can get a grab. Getting grabs on Rosa, tho, when your ground speed isn’t super hot, is a little sus.

 

[blackghost]

Why it is difficult for players to restrain themselves when it comes to attacking?

Because people in this community believe aggressive play and mashing buttons to be the same thing. Often i feel watching matches back that players dont have a gameplan its hard to effectively zone or rush down without a gameplan. Especially agianst characters that do not have universal answers (ie the good ones).

 

[WiFi]

Okay, hopefully a lot of the post-tournament Bayonetta discussion is out of everyone's system.

Understandably, this is a thread on the competitive metagame, and Bayonetta is very much a part of the competitive metagame. This said, ban discussions are to go elsewhere.

Similarly, let's try to get this thread back on track to a higher level of conversation, yes? There are actually plenty of gems buried within the Bayonetta conversation to discuss.

For example, the entirety of Salem and Manny's discussion on improving Sonic:

Sonic just got me livid cause it’s either one random mixup and then nothing ever again or they try and get some jank and hope the gimmick of theirs keeps working later, like ????? IT SHOULD BE A TON OF JANK AND MIXUPS BUT OKAY.

— Salem (@SalemBane_) February 12, 2018

Some insight on why Sonic isn't getting any better, and how he could get better.

Similarly, the idea of every player adopting the tactics that others do is eye-opening. Not even just for Sonic, but I feel a number of players all go for the same options in the same situations. Bayonetta players are actually incredibly different, and while that *could* be the character's diverse options, it could honestly just be a flaw we miss. Fox mains, for example, are also pretty different in how they play him.

Haha, yeah. Every Fox is a different Fox, too bad most top ones play hyper-aggressive, defensive Fox is a rarity these days. Though while I play a very defensive Mewtwo, my Fox is more of a mixup based playstyle.

Edit: @RK Since you are more active on this thread, and are therefore the only mod I can really talk to on this thread, can I create a Bayonetta ban discussion thread? I'm asking permission because as you know, its really controversial.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Do you think there is a way that we can maybe fix that mindset?

 

[blackghost]

Do you think there is a way that we can maybe fix that mindset?

Mindset has to be changed from the top down. Like most things do. Just looking at those twitter posts between salem and manny its clear the players we all see as elite arent even necessarily in the same stratosphere even when it comes to approaching and practicing the game abd the details they notice.
Until this community moves from semi casual/competitive to full on compeitive id say the realistic answer is no the mindset wont change.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Mindset has to be changed from the top down. Like most things do. Just looking at those twitter posts between salem and manny its clear the players we all see as elite arent even necessarily in the same stratosphere even when it comes to approaching and practicing the game abd the details they notice.
Until this community moves from semi casual/competitive to full on compeitive id say the realistic answer is no the mindset wont change.

Being casual or competitive isn't the main issue. A part of why this mindset is happening is because people are overexcited and/or over centralized on a character's jank/BS (Bayo and the grapplers), or seemingly flashy combos.
For example, while some players believe the Pits' new placement is accurate, other players like Dabuz argue that both Pits should be ranked lower because of their "honesty", despite Pit's strengths and continued good results from Earth. How this "jank" mindset came to be, I don't know, but this is a reason I noticed.
I think this mindset spread out by the elites, as some of them (such as ZeRo and Dabuz) has this mindset and therefore, to people's minds, they should too.

 

[Galaxeon]

Why it is difficult for players to restrain themselves when it comes to attacking? Over-extending your advantage when it is not guaranteed is what allows a Bayonetta player to land a Witch Time in the first place.

Because Bayonetta changes your definition of what is guaranteed and what is not for every single character, while forcing some of them to change their whole usual game style.

Also, more generally, if you want to win the game, you need to make as much as you can out of reads and neutral wins. As recent tweets proved, top players now tend to think that advantage state has become as much as or perhaps even more important than neutral. Basically, if you have Zero Suit or Rosalina's Up Air, it ain't fun playing like the Pits. At some point, you need to go for it and try to make as much as you can of your usual strength.

So that is why it is difficult and infuriating for players to restrain while attacking Bayonetta: because in certain situations they have almost no reason to do so in any other match-up, because safely extending your advantage and making calls to apply pressure is how games are usually won nowadays. I mean, it is called "advantage state" for a reason, in theory. At some point, you need to go for it and not be affraid of extending.

Of course since Bayonetta can kill you out of her disadvantage like no other character in the game, it is more about kowing when to go for it and when to... be a Pit (sorry to all Pit mains reading this post) and wait for your chance. Which is probably what is the difference between players like Leo and Dabuz, and the rest of us. So maybe I'm wrong but I don't feel it's just because "we are all being too much agressive and mashing buttons". This may be partially true, but I'm sure there is more than that.

 

[Galaxeon]

(Misinput, sorry, ignore this please)

 

[The_Bookworm]

Because Bayonetta changes your definition of what is guaranteed and what is not for every single character, while forcing some of them to change their whole usual game style.

Also, more generally, if you want to win the game, you need to make as much as you can out of reads and neutral wins. As recent tweets proved, top players now tend to think that advantage state has become as much as or perhaps even more important than neutral. Basically, if you have Zero Suit or Rosalina's Up Air, it ain't fun playing like the Pits. At some point, you need to go for it and try to make as much as you can of your usual strength.

So that is why it is difficult and infuriating for players to restrain while attacking Bayonetta: because in certain situations they have almost no reason to do so in any other match-up, because safely extending your advantage and making calls to apply pressure is how games are usually won nowadays. I mean, it is called "advantage state" for a reason, in theory. At some point, you need to go for it and not be affraid of extending.

Of course since Bayonetta can kill you out of her disadvantage like no other character in the game, it is more about kowing when to go for it and when to... be a Pit (sorry to all Pit mains reading this post) and wait for your chance. Which is probably what is the difference between players like Leo and Dabuz, and the rest of us. So maybe I'm wrong but I don't feel it's just because "we are all being too much agressive and mashing buttons". This may be partially true, but I'm sure there is more than that.

We both thought about the Pits at the same time LOL.
Just because a character is honest doesn't mean that he is bad, which is a main issue with this "jank"-based mindset.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I don't know if this is allowed here, and if it isn't, please direct me to where I should share it, but I started a survey on Reddit about Bayonetta Enjoyment in terms of viewership, playing as, and playing against. If you can fill it out and share it where you can, that would be appreciated. Thank you!

https://goo.gl/forms/6NHvRwdnj6ePBvtu2

I guess also to add to the discussion. Why is Sheik considered a bad matchup for Bayo? I didn't get to see the stream but did Tweek go more into it?

Not a lot of people enjoys watching Bayonetta, but the case is actually more similar to SSB4 Sonic or SSBM Jigglypuff and IC's than her actual traits in my opinion (aka, a character that can play heavy defense and requires a lot of patience).

I think the reason why people thinks Sheik beats Bayo (first time I heard of it tbh), is that Bayo's neutral game, although it doesn't affect her amazing approach, is lacking due to her mediocre ground moves, which is where Sheik shines.

 

[Laken64]

My assumption is that sheik can still play it safe but not as much as other mus. Needles are much better than bullet arts from dtilt and nair when it comes to camping. Theres also the fact that she can deal with some of bayo's silly things for than other characters, for example she can still chase bayo after batwithin because of her low lag moves and her speed and expose nairplaning through uptilt and upsmash which can also catch a ABK from bayo if the sheik reads it. She also has a 50/50 on bayo with upthrow up air due to her slow jump. Sheik can oppress bayo heavily in the neutral and is one of the few characters that can really expose her silly things (though its bound for other characters to start antiairing bayo nairplanes wich has no hitbox directly below her btw) but she is still at risk to getting exposed to rage witch twist and other unsavory things (witch time) the witch has so its really down to how much sheik can minimize that risk like the ZSS mu to an extent.

Just curious but how good is sheik's crawl in the mu? I'd assume it'll be amazing to avoid a good amount of things bayo can do.

 

[blackghost]

I don't know if this is allowed here, and if it isn't, please direct me to where I should share it, but I started a survey on Reddit about Bayonetta Enjoyment in terms of viewership, playing as, and playing against. If you can fill it out and share it where you can, that would be appreciated. Thank you!

https://goo.gl/forms/6NHvRwdnj6ePBvtu2

I guess also to add to the discussion. Why is Sheik considered a bad matchup for Bayo? I didn't get to see the stream but did Tweek go more into it?

Shiek fights bayo well she can beat nair (nit nearly as good a normal as people believe) upsmash, uptilt, nair, and ftilt all beat bayo nair, outzone bayo needles crushes her (bayo cannot crouch needles), combo her effectively, run away, edge gaurd her, and more. At the ledge upsmash beats abk and easily sweetspots.
Every button shiek has with exception of bouncing fish cannot be witch timed on reaction. Shiek maintains her pre patch 50 50 on bayo due to ayo being a tall fastfaller and sub 50-60 percent bayo basically cannot airdodge becuase batwithin is a liability at low percent vs combo characters.
The mu gets hard for shiek if she cannot land the finishing blow. But as a character that shouldnt be on increased awarebess for witchtime shiek can run her gameplan as she wants. She just cabt get careless or extremely predictable during it.

 

[Rizen]

Shiek fights bayo well she can beat nair (nit nearly as good a normal as people believe) upsmash, uptilt, nair, and ftilt all beat bayo nair,

If you Nair into an Upsmash, you're using it wrong. Nair has 10 frames of landing lag, same as Link's and is +3/2 on shield drop; that's a pretty good landing option. It also walls really well. The f9 start up sucks though. Nair gets anti-aired, like every aerial, if you land on a idle grounded opponent but it's a good situational move paired with Bayo's air game.

But not as good as Link's Nair.

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

Tweek listed outright that Sheik beats Bayonetta recently and he's definitely not the first Bayonetta to suggest this idea. Void & Mr. R still believe so as well. I think it'll be shown more as they refine certain things in their play that have been holding them back and we continue to see the MU at top level as time goes on. You wouldn't think so looking at current results alone tho but I honestly believe it's closer to Sheik slight favor than the other way around and will be considered so at large in the future as a common opinion. Everyone still a little shook on Bayo overall rn but this is one of the few losing MUs I can realistically see in the long run.

Sheik as a character has a large majority of traits that Bayonetta in general dislikes having to deal with. Having the best neutral is one of them tho that's for sure. Not every character who has these traits she loses to but overall she finds it annoying fighting characters with:

• Great mobility (she runs as fast as Mario and walks just barely faster than Robin without committing to her specials)
  
• Ability to control the pace, out-neutral her, or force her to approach with good projectiles (Bayo's approach game is weaker than her run away game, if Sheik gains a lead she can play smart & maintain it while racking up more % along the way by whiff punishing attempts to catch back up)
  
• Excellent recovery that isn't easy to gimp (One of Bayo's best strengths is her offstage gameplay & its not easy to contest Sheik there)
  
• Ledge traps (Bayo's like to go to ledge to not land on stage with lag often, can backfire on her)
  
• Low profile (very hard to hit w/ rising aerials and crouches under her bullet climax among other things)
  
• Good ground game & anti-airs (Bayonetta has to jump a lot because of weaker/unsafe ground game and her high short hop works against her vs those who can knock her out of the sky for nair planing)
  
• Strong disadvantage state (One of the better chars in the game at resetting back to neutral once put there)
  
• Great frame data (She has a few crucial quick moves like Witch Twist & Dtilt, but when you look closer, she does have a bit of startup on her aerials in comparison and a bit of her ground game is slower. Sheik can suffocate her in the proper situations.

The only real issue Sheik has vs Bayonetta is matching damage output when she loses a lead, and killing. Both of those still have room to improve over time through both her players and the character itself, and Sheik still has the frame data and speed to chase Bayo in advantage or cover landings with needles. Not to mention she has an Uthrow 50/50 when things get rough at higher %s. Both these weaknesses have the chance to be mitigated over time. Sheik in general might not have as strong a raw punish game as some other characters but with players like Void who have been very creative with her setups and in the right situations, she can definitely hold her own in that regard. Mr. R recently talked about how Bayo is the perfect combo food for a lot of Sheik's strings and optimized stuff however. Losing the lead does suck but Sheik one of the better characters at getting a lead first and maintaining it or running away with it so Sheik's gotta abuse it. Once they lose lead tho can't go too hard trying to rush and get it back tho or it'll snowball in Bayo's favor as she racks up more damage against bad approaches, definitely seen that happen a lot on stream.

I'm confident in their abilities and I think Mr. R and Void will figure it out soon and we'll see results change similarly to how Leo, Tweek, Dabuz etc have been against Bayo. But they both need to actually needle camp when they have a lead, deal with nair better than they currently are and not rush in blindly, and fix their disadvantage state (and SDI; Mr. R stated himself on twitter it needs noticeable improvement) before that can happen.

 

[conTAgi0n]

The problem with discussing a Bayonetta ban here is that the most substantive disagreement is over the criteria for determining whether a character deserves to be banned. For this discussion to actually make any progress towards a consensus, we would first need to arrive at a set of explicit and widely-accepted criteria for whether a character deserves to be banned. That is a big and complicated topic with plenty of room for subjectivity and philosophical differences. It definitely warrants its own thread, and is off topic here.

If it sounds like I'm trying to play moderator, I'm really not. I'm not even saying that we should can the Bayonetta discussion. But let's not frame the discussion in terms of whether Bayonetta deserves a ban, because aside from being needlessly provocative, it also degrades the quality of the conversation. In particular it leads people to repeat these basic facts about Bayonetta that everyone already agrees upon:

• Bayonetta has the best results of any character in the game by a margin that is significant but not so outrageous as to justify a ban on its own.
• Nobody really disputes that Bayonetta is the best character in the game anymore theory-wise.
• Bayonetta seems to be (and probably is) trending upward still, both in results and (perhaps more debatably) theory.
• Lots of people at all skill levels, from the scrubbiest scrubs to top players, very much dislike playing against Bayonetta. Many spectators also express a dislike for watching Bayo matches.
• Everyone now seems to agree that in retrospect, MK definitely deserved to be banned in Brawl.

The way in which Bayonetta uniquely breaks the conventional rules of Smash 4 (if she does), just how much room Bayo has left to grow relative to other characters, how counterplay to Bayo could/should develop from here, matchups, etc... all of those are interesting discussion topics in their own right, separate from any ban discussion. Personally, I am kind of interested in hearing people's thoughts on the vs matchup. In theory it should be the most important matchup in the game - best character vs. second best character.

 

[FeelMeUp]

A few other lesser appreciated points that makes the Sheik matchup rather rough for Bayo at times(from personal experience playing and speaking with ShadowPR/Karna multiple times):

• Bayo's leg sticks out pretty far when she's trying to retreat, meaning there's no way for her to run away from Sheik without taking a hit or getting grabbed unless she wants to hard commit to a roll(some of the worst rolls in the game), spotdodge, or special. She has to commit to boxing Sheik or platform camping. Any attempt at doing something inbetween will get snuffed out.
• Bayo's ridiculously tall and thin. This makes rage influence Sheik combos to the point where Bats Within will trigger and ruin damage setups, but death setups like Rising Forward Air > Bouncing Fish and Down/Up Throw > Up Air will kill at crazy early percents. I've hit Bayo players with Fair in neutral and converted that to death off a 50/50 at 30%.
• Bayo has 0 options for a Sheik that commits to standing at midrange and reacting to everything. As you guys saw with Karna vs Lima, Karna refused to fight Lima in CQC and didn't allow him to comfortably play at long-range. By forcing Lima into a mid-range burst zone, every single button Lima attempted to press became unsafe and every approach option could be snuffed out on reaction. The issue with this is that it relies on you playing consistently well while minimizing the number of times you have to guess.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Every button shiek has with exception of bouncing fish cannot be witch timed on reaction.

Vanish and Dair can also be Witch Timed on reaction.

Also, I apologize if I sound like a bit too much of a scrub, but could someone perhaps give a somewhat in-depth description of the various fighting ranges and how they're played? I'm finding it difficult to comprehend.

 

[Y2Kay]

I think it's kind of strange how I feel that Sheik is not the best character in the game, while at the same time feel that she doesn't lose any match ups. I do not think there is a single relevant character that can claim to have an advantage over her.

 

[Rizen]

I think it's kind of strange how I feel that Sheik is not the best character in the game, while at the same time feel that she doesn't lose any match ups. I do not think there is a single relevant character that can claim to have an advantage over her.

Sheik's hard to place in the sense that she has incredible tools to outplay any opponent but she must outplay them many times per game to win. Cloud can land 1 limit move and kill at 60%. With perfect theory, Sheik beats everyone. With human theory, sheik loses the risk/reward ratio and gets smash 4ed.
In my experience playing Link vs Sheik, the MU's hell but if I make 1 good read and Nair>DA the tech Sheik dies at 65%. Usmash and she's dead at 80%. Most of the time Link's getting Fair chained for maybe 4% a Fair and generally danced around. Sheik has to dance a lot to win.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think it's kind of strange how I feel that Sheik is not the best character in the game, while at the same time feel that she doesn't lose any match ups. I do not think there is a single relevant character that can claim to have an advantage over her.

Many people believe that Rosalina has a slight advantage in the MU. Some people, like Dark Wizzy, believe that Mario has a slight advantage.

The problem with discussing a Bayonetta ban here is that the most substantive disagreement is over the criteria for determining whether a character deserves to be banned.

The way I see it, the main issue is that it distracts from other discussion. A thread specifically for discussing a Bayonetta ban would be nice.

Anyway, at this point in time, there doesn't seem to be enough community support to warrant a ban.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

3,711 votes, 34% in favor of a ban, 66% against. In order to really sustain a ban, we'd need something like 60%+ community support. I don't think that will happen.

Bayonetta seems to be (and probably is) trending upward still, both in results and (perhaps more debatably) theory.

Some people think Cloud is better.

Lots of people at all skill levels, from the scrubbiest scrubs to top players, very much dislike playing against Bayonetta. Many spectators also express a dislike for watching Bayo matches.

This is the main argument in favor of banning Bayonetta. It's pretty clear that in her current state, she's neither all that overcentralizing (we still have a good amount of variety) nor super-OP (most or all of the characters she beats +2 are beaten by other characters +2 or +3 as well, very few characters have Bayonetta as their one terrible MU). I don't think you can really make a good case that Bayonetta is too strong to not be banned, in that case Cloud should perhaps be banned too, and maybe Sheik and/or Diddy Kong as well. This is, of course, neither a realistic nor a desirable option. So then we're back to "Bayonetta hurts viewership and attendance".

If we accept that argument, then, I suppose, we would also have to accept banning Sonic in case he becomes a major issue (I don't think he will, but it's a possibility). While I don't think it's necessarily wrong to ban a character to appease viewers, I don't think the case for banning Bayonetta is strong enough to warrant a ban right now (especially since the community is so split and anti-ban people seem to be in majority anyway). Granted, if it turns out that we'd lose like 50% of attendants and/or viewers if we don't ban Bayonetta, then Bayonetta should be banned. I don't think that's really the case though. Perhaps things will change in the future, but right now, a Bayonetta ban is very unlikely.

Also, if/once top players get better at the MU, then I think viewers will be less annoyed with Bayonetta. As Tweek/Mr. R/Keitaro/false explained, many of the janky KOs Bayo gets are partly because of poor SDI. Perhaps low/mid level players shouldn't be expected to SDI properly, but top level players probably should learn to if they want to beat Bayonetta. Apparently Nairo and ZeRo SDI'd up vs Bayonetta, which got them killed?

(Of course, I should note I'm slightly biased since I main a character who does fairly well vs Bayonetta, and Cosmos seems to win vs Bayonettas more often than he loses. If I were, say, a Mario main or a Captain Falcon main I'd likely be more annoyed with Bayonetta, though I don't think that'd really change my stance on a ban. We can't ban her if only ~40% of the community supports it, it'd split the community too hard and could hurt any Smash 5 community as well).

Sheik's hard to place in the sense that she has incredible tools to outplay any opponent but she must outplay them many times per game to win.

People need to keep in mind that Sheik wins neutral nearly for free. If she had more reliable ways to kill she'd be more oppressive than Bayonetta.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I'll try to explain it Skeeter.

These are my notes* which are heavily based off of TremendoDude's (Tdude is my abbreviation for him) notes. In them he also uses Yomi to help get his point across; those notes are then based off of Sirlin who said he learned them from the Japanese FGC scene.

I've added a few asterisks where I will go jnto more detail on a topic if I thought it needed more explaination for those who do not understand it right away.
The information for that will be under spoiler tabs.

Spoiler: Asterisk 1

*i copied, edited, and added some words and formatting to make it flow easier on Smashboards instead of doing a 1-1 copy and paste.

I'll add the source of these notes which come from four of Tdude's lesson streams that he does for players.

Note: His lesson videos are each over an hour long. Some even stretch to two and four hours.

Links:
Personal Training w/ GetShulked - https://youtu.be/Ts6bvzEONAQ

Personal Training w/ ChocoTaco - https://youtu.be/hVImHEIuK3w

Personal Training w/ EMA - https://youtu.be/_rpF7KhPs7U

Personal Training w/ Agniratha (2) - https://youtu.be/dwt-w5sdyUw

Also at the end of notes is a Miscellaneous spoiler tab that has other information present in his videos. I just did not know where to put them since in my notes, I have them thrown inbetween the below information that I got from Tdude.

Ok that's it for the introduction.

-

First, we need to understand the Rock, Paper, Scissors game, as that is the foundation for these notes.

Rock loses to Paper.
Paper loses to Scissors.
And Scissors loses to Rock.

With that said, each playstyle has a counter and loses to another playstyle akin to Rock, Paper, Scissors.

-

So Tdude says that they are two main playstyles: Passive and Active.
Passive playstyles are generally used to keep stage control while also using it as a resource.
Meanwhile, Active playstyles are used to take stage control from the opponent.

He then breaks these down further into four more categories. They are: Passive Offense, Passive Defense, Active Offense, and Active Defense.

Passive Offense is summed up as staying outside of the opponent's range (*at the edge) and punishing them for geting to close to you.

An example of this is a Diddy Kong or a Mario player using short hop bairs whenever you get near them.

• There are two ways to beat this strategy. The first, is to play a better Passive Offense than your opponent and their character.

• The second, is to use "swords" vs melee attacks. These are attacks that contain disjoints with no hurtboxes.

• Tdude has said that if your character lacks the options to play this style or does so poorly, then it is up to you to figure out the best way to accomplish this. The same can be applied to the other three playstyles I will cover.

• The counter to Passive Offense is Active Defense.

Spoiler: Asterisk 2

*Think of zone of control, hit bubbles, and threat zones. Or whatever term you decide to use know the opponent's range which includes all of their moves and options.

-

Passive Defense is summed up to be running away while keeping the opponent out.

• The counter to Passive Defense is Active Defense.

-

Now for Active Offense.

This is summarized as "rushdown"; which translates to opponents that focus on getting in your face. They want to press buttons, do combos and are agressive. They want to do cool combos and go for style.

• Passive playstyles counter Active Offense.
• Active Offense is the counter to Active Defense only if you engage during an opening.
• Now if you are versus an opponent who uses Active Offense this may come in handy. If you are versus an opponent who always goes for the same option yet they only change it up once, do not change your current playstyle since they are more than likely to default back to their original option. There is more on this below during the Yomi conversation. To be exact it is the paragraph above "Side Notes" and the Side Notes paragraphs.

-

Active Defense is said to focused around misdirection and baits. This includes approaching the opponent and waiting for them to respond. In return, you can either bring up your shield, or bring up your shield and roll away. These players are trying to break the opponent's defense.

• These players are looking for your reaction before you are looking for theirs.
• When you force players to the ledge, you limit their options and force them to react quicker.
• Use skids during runs or a turnaround while walking to bait a reaction from the opponent. You can even stop moving altogether.
• If an opponent is holding the ledge, jump and airdodge through them or roll to take stage control. Proceed to grab or swat them away afterwards.

-

Now for Yomi*.

Spoiler: Asterisk 3

*I split this section into two parts. The first is my summary of it. The second is word for word what Tdude and ChocoTaco said during one of the videos. I cut out the dialogue inbetween where he changed topics or said something that only applied to ChocoTaco during the lesson and his character.

Yomi Levels:

1. You spam really good move
2. Opponent counters said move with a jump to avoid it
3. You punish the jump with a anti air
4. The opponent shields the anti air

Important Note: Level 4 loses to Level 1. Tdude covers this below.

Tdude version:

Tdude: “Yomi Level 0 that’s the obvious choice. The move that the offender wants to use, that’s like an obvious move.

(I cut out some dialogue)

Essentially you have a great move, and you want to use this great move. That’s the scrubadub line of thinking, the obvious choice.

Yomi Level 1 is, i know you want to use the obvious choice, so I'm going to the pick the option that beats it.

Yomi Level 2, goes with Yomi Level 1. And it’s: I know what you want, and you know that I want to use this good move. So I'm going to use a move to beat your counter attack, to this move. Cuz’ you’re predicting the obvious choice. So I’m gonna say no, I’m gonna use this move that beats that.

Yomi Level 3 is, I’m assuming you’re not a scrub, so you’re not gonna use the scrub option, you’re gonna use the counter to the scrub option, so I'm gonna use this option to beat you out.

But then the scrub says hi (Yomi Level 3 loses to Yomi Level 0).

-

"Let’s say someone who practices with top players but doesn’t practice with low level players. The top players are always going to be on Yomi Level 2 & 3. Or on 1 & 2 depending on intermediate or top players.

In order to beat a top player you have to pick Yomi Level 3 and 0. Unless they have a full understanding of Yomi, in which case you have to pick every single possible option.

This is like the general, the starting option. By default, it's going to be on 2 & 3. So in order to beat those guys, you have to be on 3 & 0.

Now what if you only practiced and only mastered 3 & 0 without understanding why 1 & 2 exists?"

ChocoTaco: "Well then you are going to get punished by 1 & 2."

Tdude: "Or 0 & 1. You know who uses 0 & 1? Scrubadubs. So this could be someone who practices with top players, but loses to random scrubs. Because they aren't fully aware of all the possible options. They aren't aware of why these options are good.

Essentially, Yomi Level 0 is the For Glory mindset. Yomi Level 1 is the edgey For Glory player. Yomi Level 2 is the intermediate player. Yomi Level 3 is the top player.

Not obviously, because in order to be a top player you have to shuffle between all of these. But that defines, that the fact of being able to adapt Yomi into your playstyle, seperates a great player from a top player.

That’s the additation. That’s the brains of the operation. That’s the smarts behind this whole thing.

In order to adapt to your opponent, quickly, as quickly as possible, you have to understand Yomi. You have to understand who your opponent is, and you have to understand what they want. You have to understand what the character wants, as well as what the player wants.”

(Skipped some more)

“...the instant you realize: ‘'Wait a second, I’m overthinking this. This is a scrub.” You realize the guy is only thinking Rock, the whole time. So you start using Paper instead of Scissors; and then the person can't adapt and then you win. This is the thing that makes you consistent.”

Side notes:

• If your opponent's behavior changes without them countering the option that you land a lot, stop using it because they may have developed a counter for it. Actually disregard this. Tdude said in a later video that a player can use a different strategy or option in one instance to give the illusion that they are adapting. This causes their opponent to over-react and begin to overthink things which makes them panic. During that time, the player who just so happened to change up their options in that one instance, defaults back to Yomi Level 0 and is now able to get away with it because their opponent is expecting more out of them. Recognize the pattern if possible.

• Tdude’s actual example was a hypothetical rock paper scissors tournament. There was a Rock main who always played Rock no matter what. In one game he decided to use another option after his opponent believed he had already figured out the Rock main. The Rock main’s opponent begins to panic, overthinks the situation and is now trying to develop a “counter to the counter” a.k.a Yomi Level 3.
• When it is time for them to confront each other, the Rock main uses Yomi Level 0 to win.

• The scrubadub tactic.

• I think this just leads back into an earlier example Tdude said. It’s just another way to get thrown into that scenario. This relates to the 3rd bullet point under Active Offense.

-

Spoiler: Miscellaneous

Rock paper scissors method:

• Passive - hold stage control
  
  
• Counter: wait for them to outplay themselves (make a mistake)

• Push passive people to the ledge and force them to cross through you to get to safety

• Focus of match is to take a lead and play passive.

-

Pushing forward:

• When in the disadvantage while recovering, hold forward and come to a stop once you see your opponent starts to move.
  
  
• This will help you gain some stage control when your opponent decides to give up some of theirs to follow your drift.

• Following people’s drift in the air can get really predictable since many players may never stop holding forward when recovering while in the air*.

Spoiler: Asterisk 4

This is one of the reaaons why players will fall into smash attacks. Pushing forward, also let's the opponent know that you are planning to retaliate with an option of some sort which can appear to be an aggro or Active Offense playstyle.

I think the safer option would be to instead drift towards the ledge.

-

conTAgi0n
I am interested in that thread. I was working on a post but since the conversation has been declared off-topic. I'll hold onto the post until the appropriate thread is made. Or I'll make it myself if I get tired of waiting.

-

Dabuz just uploaded his thoughts on Bayonetta.