Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[SwagGuy99]

1 Character ha ha ha, 2 characters ha ha ha, 3 characters ha ha ha... 10 characters ha ha ha. Hey, who are the other 4?

Sees title, skips video. True combos don't need to worry about Mewtwo's airdodge drift, bat within and frame 1 escape moves.

Marth, Luigi, Lucina, Pika

 

[SwagGuy99]

SV = Smashville
Most floaties or borderline floaties () actually do AMAZING against Sheik on Smashville because they're impossible to Smashville combo due to their weight/fallspeed combo, airdodge speeds, and frequency of having f3-5 escape options. Most can also can kill her ridiculously early with suffocating hitboxes.

Kirby does not have this luxury, as he has no good escape options and can't drift away from Forward Air, Forward Tilt, or Up Tilt on the Smashville platform. This means that he's one of the only floaty characters susceptible to dying instantly off the side when touched the right way.
A few other floaties that share this quality with him are .

What about

Luigi?

 

[Lukingordex]

Small 2122 Mii Brawler would basically be a better Mario. Also one of the best keep-away characters. Mii Brawler has ridiculous frame data, and a Small 2122 Mii Brawler can kill people through Up-B at 30% on Smashville. Any other Mii setup is inferior trash, and would be around #30 on the tier list, while Small 2122 Mii Brawler would be a B-tier, around Pikachu and Meta Knight's level.

Mario is considered a better character than MK and Pikachu though...

 

[|RK|]

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I kind of agree with this assessment. It's to the point where traditional neutral is becoming irrelevant, as long as your punishes are deadly.

 

[The_Bookworm]

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I kind of agree with this assessment. It's to the point where traditional neutral is becoming irrelevant, as long as your punishes are deadly.

I think the meta is a combination of both. Both aspects are very important to the current meta. The reason why neutral game was the most important in earlier SSB4 is mainly because pre-patch Sheik existed.

 

[TDK]

Frostbite 2018 (866 Entrants) (Michigan)

1st: Dabuz
2nd: Tweek
3rd: Mistake
4th: Salem
5th: Fatality
5th: Mr. R
7th: Cosmos
7th: Komorikiri
9th: Samsora
9th: DarkShad
9th: WaDi
9th: Tyroy
13th: Paseriman
13th: Wrath
13th: Zinoto
13th: Shoyo James
17th: Mew2King
17th: Zenyou
17th: Locus
17th: Light
17th: Captain Zack
17th: Marss
17th: JeBB
17th: Rags
25th: Exodia
25th: Mr. E
25th: Mute Ace
25th: Ned
25th: The Great Gonzales
25th: MVD
25th: Ralphie
25th: Nom
33rd: Lima
33rd: Glare
33rd: SDX
33rd: Percy
33rd: Dyr
33rd: Seth
33rd: Sinji
33rd: Rayquaza07
33rd: Rideae
33rd: Nero
33rd: Ozone
33rd: Karna
33rd: Pyreeze
33rd: Midnight
33rd: Blacktwins
33rd: Sonido
49th: Promaelia
49th: SaSSy
49th: 8BitMan
49th: Xaltis
49th: Shadow
49th: Freelancer Leo
49th: Bill_
49th: Blank
49th: Sells
49th: Schwapple
49th: Onpu
49th: Venom
49th: Morpheus
49th: Soan
49th: ZD
49th: GwJ

 

[The_Bookworm]

An Update on the PGR v5. 2/11/18

C-Tier
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (1st: KEN) (2nd: Nietono) (3rd: Choco)
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (1st: Kirihara) (2nd: Rizeasu) (3rd: Ron)
Noods Noods Noods: Melee Edition (1st: falln) (2nd: Elegant) (3rd: Eon)
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (1st: MkLeo) (2nd: Shuton) (3rd: shky)
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (1st: Shu) (2nd: Zackray) (3rd: Tsu-)
King of the Springs 3 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Full Bloom 4 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Collision XV (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)

B-tier
Umebura T.A.T. (1st: KEN) (2nd: Choco) (3rd: Nietono)
EVO Japan 2018 (1st: MKLeo) (2nd: Abadango) (3rd: Kameme)
Niconico Tokaigi 2018 (1st: Nairo) (2nd: MKLeo) (3rd: KEN)

A-Tier
Genesis 5 (1st: MKLeo) (2nd: Mistake) (3rd: Salem)
Frostbite 2018 (1st: Dabuz) (2nd: Tweek) (3rd: Mistake)

With the World Series announced, this season has shaken up.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Lol hmm i think when i get back home, I'm gonna start practicing Bayo. It looks like the meta is headed in this direction and I don't wanna get left behind. I have a responsibility to bring in results so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

— Nairo (@NairoMK) February 12, 2018

Let's assume, for a moment, that Nairo started playing Bayonetta and ended up liking her so much that he decided to main her (perhaps even solo main her). Would he be the savior of Bayonettas, bringing hype and tolerance towards Bayonetta as a character and other Bayonetta mains as well? Or would he, perhaps, split the community even further, increasing bitterness and hostility towards Bayonetta?

I think, at this point, we can assume that more and more players are going to pick up top tiers, and more low/mid tier mains will quit/attend fewer tournaments/pick up a top tier.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Frostbite 2018 (866 Entrants) (Michigan)

1st: Dabuz
2nd: Tweek
3rd: Mistake
4th: Salem
5th: Fatality
5th: Mr. R
7th: Cosmos
7th: Komorikiri
9th: Samsora
9th: DarkShad
9th: WaDi
9th: Tyroy
13th: Paseriman
13th: Wrath
13th: Zinoto
13th: Shoyo James
17th: Mew2King
17th: Zenyou
17th: Locus
17th: Light
17th: Captain Zack
17th: Marss
17th: JeBB
17th: Rags
25th: Exodia
25th: Mr. E
25th: Mute Ace
25th: Ned
25th: The Great Gonzales
25th: MVD
25th: Ralphie
25th: Nom
33rd: Lima
33rd: Glare
33rd: SDX
33rd: Percy
33rd: Dyr
33rd: Seth
33rd: Sinji
33rd: Rayquaza07
33rd: Rideae
33rd: Nero
33rd: Ozone
33rd: Karna
33rd: Pyreeze
33rd: Midnight
33rd: Blacktwins
33rd: Sonido
49th: Promaelia
49th: SaSSy
49th: 8BitMan
49th: Xaltis
49th: Shadow
49th: Freelancer Leo
49th: Bill_
49th: Blank
49th: Sells
49th: Schwapple
49th: Onpu
49th: Venom
49th: Morpheus
49th: Soan
49th: ZD
49th: GwJ

The Great Gonzales claimed he'd used Ness this tournament more than Diddy, I actually don't think he used Diddy at all but you could correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[NairWizard]

yeah, imagine fighting a duel using a bow and arrows against a dude with a gun

you can be super skilled with your bow and arrow and have your timing be perfect, and your opponent can be extremely sloppy and just randomly firing

but you're still more likely to die


"advantage state matters more than neutral game" is only a product of the strength of advantage states

Also:

Frostbite 2018 (866 Entrants) (Michigan)

2nd: Tweek
3rd: Mistake
4th: Salem

Gross. Dabuz is my hero, but gross.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The Great Gonzales claimed he'd used Ness this tournament more than Diddy, I actually don't think he used Diddy at all but you could correct me if I'm wrong.

He did use Ness, and is the only PK Kid user to make it to top 48 (Gackt and Mekos got knocked out pretty much at the same time at top 196). He did use Diddy, but used Ness more.

 

[The_Bookworm]

yeah, imagine fighting a duel using a bow and arrows against a dude with a gun

you can be super skilled with your bow and arrow and have your timing be perfect, and your opponent can be extremely sloppy and just randomly firing

but you're still more likely to die


"advantage state matters more than neutral game" is only a product of the strength of advantage states

Also:




Gross. Dabuz is my hero, but gross.

Both neutral and punish games are important in SSB4. If someone gets hit if someone is playing sloppy, it is most likely because you made a mistake. In Tweek's defense, he used Cloud more than Bayo (although I am not complaining. His Bayo is cleeeaaaannnn.)

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

and the crowd goes absolutely WILD!!!

 

[Rizen]

Frostbite 2018 (866 Entrants) (Michigan)

1st: Dabuz
2nd: Tweek
3rd: Mistake
4th: Salem
5th: Fatality
5th: Mr. R
7th: Cosmos
7th: Komorikiri
9th: Samsora
9th: DarkShad
9th: WaDi
9th: Tyroy
13th: Paseriman
13th: Wrath
13th: Zinoto
13th: Shoyo James
17th: Mew2King
17th: Zenyou
17th: Locus
17th: Light
17th: Captain Zack
17th: Marss
17th: JeBB
17th: Rags
25th: Exodia
25th: Mr. E
25th: Mute Ace
25th: Ned
25th: The Great Gonzales
25th: MVD
25th: Ralphie
25th: Nom
33rd: Lima
33rd: Glare
33rd: SDX
33rd: Percy
33rd: Dyr
33rd: Seth
33rd: Sinji
33rd: Rayquaza07
33rd: Rideae
33rd: Nero
33rd: Ozone
33rd: Karna
33rd: Pyreeze
33rd: Midnight
33rd: Blacktwins
33rd: Sonido
49th: Promaelia
49th: SaSSy
49th: 8BitMan
49th: Xaltis
49th: Shadow
49th: Freelancer Leo
49th: Bill_
49th: Blank
49th: Sells
49th: Schwapple
49th: Onpu
49th: Venom
49th: Morpheus
49th: Soan
49th: ZD
49th: GwJ

10
8
8
4
4
Everyone else>4.

I think Diddy's going to be just fine...

 

[blackghost]

yeah, imagine fighting a duel using a bow and arrows against a dude with a gun

you can be super skilled with your bow and arrow and have your timing be perfect, and your opponent can be extremely sloppy and just randomly firing

but you're still more likely to die


"advantage state matters more than neutral game" is only a product of the strength of advantage states

Also:




Gross. Dabuz is my hero, but gross.

many other killer players werent here.so results aren't cumulative yet but are very suggestive of where we are heading. (In the us at least) Leo and others probably knock the weaker bayos ouy earlier. Bayo is the meta if you cant fight her you are not going to be a relvant player or character.
But in an event where rob, corrin, and roy all had good showings against her there is plenty to explore to deal with her. We as a community need to get to the point where like cloud in singles players are comfortable in the mu.
Im just disgusted that Salem is still not better at the mirror match.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Roy had a good showing? Where? One game off tweeks bayo doesnt count lol

 

[ARGHETH]

But in an event where rob, corrin, and roy all had good showings against her

What did Corrin do? As far as I can tell the only Bayo beaten by Corrin was more a result of skill level than anything. Meanwhile, Promaelia got eliminated by two Bayos.

EDIT: wait, just saw Promaelia's win over saj.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Roy had a good showing? Where? One game off tweeks bayo doesnt count lol

komo thought it is going to end the same way as fighting Zack (who lost to a Mac and a R.O.B.) and that Roy is the ultimate answer. What he gets: getting bodied by Tweek's and Salem's Bayo.

 

[The_Bookworm]

What did Corrin do? As far as I can tell the only Bayo beaten by Corrin was more a result of skill level than anything. Meanwhile, Promaelia got eliminated by two Bayos.

EDIT: wait, just saw Promaelia's win over saj.

Not sure what Bayos Cosmos beat, but he got 7th in the tournament.

 

[Rizen]

. (In the us at least) Leo and others probably knock the weaker bayos ouy earlier. .

To be fair Leo/Nairo/etc would have knocked out any characters in their way. Bayo's definitely the meta centric character but not unbeatable I agree. This was 1 of many tournaments continuing the trend of Diddy/Bayo/Cloud getting the most results, albeit Diddy rarely places top 8 in stacked events with ZeRo gone.

Congrats to zelda, rob, charizard and Ike btw. Did I miss anyone unexpected?

 

[TheWill44]

Now if Sakurai could think of a character that has a winning MU only against Bayo, and is even/losing against every other character, then that’d be more impressive than making Puff mid-tier.

 

[Minordeth]

IIRC, Nairo doesn’t really enjoy playing as Bayo.

Also, people apparently forgetting EVO Japan was the second biggest tourney of the year at 757 and had three Bayos from 1st to 49th, with only one in top 33.

...But it’s all a function of turnout.

I don’t know how anyone could look at the rep turnout for Frostbite and not think we’d get a slew of Bayos up there.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Now if Sakurai could think of a character that has a winning MU only against Bayo, and is even/losing against every other character, then that’d be more impressive than making Puff mid-tier.

Than that will be Sakurai's little "balance patch". I also found it hilarious that an MK and ZSS made it to this year's Tokaigi grand finals as well. Balance patch incoming?

 

[The-Technique]

Lol hmm i think when i get back home, I'm gonna start practicing Bayo. It looks like the meta is headed in this direction and I don't wanna get left behind. I have a responsibility to bring in results so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

— Nairo (@NairoMK) February 12, 2018

Let's assume, for a moment, that Nairo started playing Bayonetta and ended up liking her so much that he decided to main her (perhaps even solo main her). Would he be the savior of Bayonettas, bringing hype and tolerance towards Bayonetta as a character and other Bayonetta mains as well? Or would he, perhaps, split the community even further, increasing bitterness and hostility towards Bayonetta?

I think, at this point, we can assume that more and more players are going to pick up top tiers, and more low/mid tier mains will quit/attend fewer tournaments/pick up a top tier.

I wouldn't put too much stock into tweets like, Zero and Leo have made similar tweets in the past and ultimately they didn't main Bayo.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Btw, Paseriman and Sinji both got $250 for winning the "Worldwide Legend" award and "Low Tier Hero" award, respectively.

Also, who here died of laughter when Panda Blair was registered as a "Low Tier Hero". XD
Never in my life I heard the word "Villager" and "low tier" in the same sentence.

I wouldn't put too much stock into tweets like, Zero and Leo have made similar tweets in the past and ultimately they didn't main Bayo.

It is probably motivation to do better in the Bayo matchup. Nairo doesn't do too bad against Bayo tbh, except for getting a taste of his own medicine against Mistake at Genesis 5.

 

[Rizen]

IIRC, Nairo doesn’t really enjoy playing as Bayo.

Also, people apparently forgetting EVO Japan was the second biggest tourney of the year at 757 and had three Bayos from 1st to 49th, with only one in top 33.

...But it’s all a function of turnout.

I don’t know how anyone could look at the rep turnout for Frostbite and not think we’d get a slew of Bayos up there.

That's true and I try to avoid knee jerk reactions. Bayo has long term results on her side too.

I wouldn't put too much stock into tweets like, Zero and Leo have made similar tweets in the past and ultimately they didn't main Bayo.

The next post down he says "sike!" with a pic of a man laughing.

 

[Deleted member]

IIRC, Nairo doesn’t really enjoy playing as Bayo.

Also, people apparently forgetting EVO Japan was the second biggest tourney of the year at 757 and had three Bayos from 1st to 49th, with only one in top 33.

...But it’s all a function of turnout.

I don’t know how anyone could look at the rep turnout for Frostbite and not think we’d get a slew of Bayos up there.

Lol hmm i think when i get back home, I'm gonna start practicing Bayo. It looks like the meta is headed in this direction and I don't wanna get left behind. I have a responsibility to bring in results so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

— Nairo (@NairoMK) February 12, 2018

Let's assume, for a moment, that Nairo started playing Bayonetta and ended up liking her so much that he decided to main her (perhaps even solo main her). Would he be the savior of Bayonettas, bringing hype and tolerance towards Bayonetta as a character and other Bayonetta mains as well? Or would he, perhaps, split the community even further, increasing bitterness and hostility towards Bayonetta?

I think, at this point, we can assume that more and more players are going to pick up top tiers, and more low/mid tier mains will quit/attend fewer tournaments/pick up a top tier.

You two just got pranked

Sike pic.twitter.com/eI2qSODt52

— Nairo (@NairoMK) February 12, 2018

10
8
8
4
4
Everyone else>4.

I think Diddy's going to be just fine...

Diddy Kong does have high representation, but his placings do not seem as top as the rest you just mentioned. I think Diddy will either be fine or move very slightly from S tier. I feel no drastic movement will happen.

Frostbite 2018 (866 Entrants) (Michigan)

1st: Dabuz
2nd: Tweek
3rd: Mistake
4th: Salem
5th: Fatality
5th: Mr. R
7th: Cosmos
7th: Komorikiri
9th: Samsora
9th: DarkShad
9th: WaDi
9th: Tyroy
13th: Paseriman
13th: Wrath
13th: Zinoto
13th: Shoyo James
17th: Mew2King
17th: Zenyou
17th: Locus
17th: Light
17th: Captain Zack
17th: Marss
17th: JeBB
17th: Rags
25th: Exodia
25th: Mr. E
25th: Mute Ace
25th: Ned
25th: The Great Gonzales
25th: MVD
25th: Ralphie
25th: Nom
33rd: Lima
33rd: Glare
33rd: SDX
33rd: Percy
33rd: Dyr
33rd: Seth
33rd: Sinji
33rd: Rayquaza07
33rd: Rideae
33rd: Nero
33rd: Ozone
33rd: Karna
33rd: Pyreeze
33rd: Midnight
33rd: Blacktwins
33rd: Sonido
49th: Promaelia
49th: SaSSy
49th: 8BitMan
49th: Xaltis
49th: Shadow
49th: Freelancer Leo
49th: Bill_
49th: Blank
49th: Sells
49th: Schwapple
49th: Onpu
49th: Venom
49th: Morpheus
49th: Soan
49th: ZD
49th: GwJ

Onpu is on there! I just want to say that when Dabuz fought Tweek on Grand Finals, his anti-air easily caught Tweek off-guard. I do think Dabuz has the best anti-air play in the game and seems to know the Cloud match-up really well. Fatality placed a lot higher than I expected, so props to him. He did really good with Salem at first, and then at the second set with Salem, Salem just retaliated hard and that was the end of Fatality. So many Bayonettas taking the higher spots. A Rosalina and three Bayonettas ( Cloud counts as a Tweek used him a lot as well ) all made top four, not surprising. I need to breathe.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I wouldn't put too much stock into tweets like, Zero and Leo have made similar tweets in the past and ultimately they didn't main Bayo.

Oh, I don't think he's going to main Bayo, though it does seem to be within the realm of possibility. If he did, I wonder what would happen? Nairo, one of the most beloved players, playing one of the most hated characters. Would Twitch chat turn into a civil war of sorts? Ally also tweeted about picking up Bayo, though I think that might've been a joke as well (though who knows?).

 

[The-Technique]

I freaking called it, Nairo is the ultimate troll.

 

[Minordeth]

That's true and I try to avoid knee jerk reactions. Bayo has long term results on her side too.

The next post down he says "sike!" with a pic of a man laughing.

Yeaaaah, Nairo’s already been working on the MU. I don’t know why he’d abandon ship now.

Also, Bayo does have long term results. And they are... about what you’d expect for a popular, top tier character.

I think we’ve already gone over her long term results here, and they aren’t impressive enough to suggest over centralization or crazy dominance.

 

[Lord Dio]

Tbh, I think komo should put a little more work into his roy if he's going to pull it out as a bayo cp. While I do think hedid just fine with sonic and cloud I'm a-ok seeing him play roy, but he should put in some work, and probably spend some time grinding the mu with ikep or 9b. It has alot of potential, and he's definitely progressed a bit with it. Good showing from him though.

 

[Rizen]

Yeaaaah, Nairo’s already been working on the MU. I don’t know why he’d abandon ship now.

Also, Bayo does have long term results. And they are... about what you’d expect for a popular, top tier character.

I think we’ve already gone over her long term results here, and they aren’t impressive enough to suggest over centralization or crazy dominance.

Let me rephrase: The meta is focused on Bayo more than any other character. She doesn't over centralize but is the most relevant character, largely because how she breaks the normal character format. Turning disadvantage into a kill chain at the drop of a pin, WTi, her ladders etc require extra patient, conservative gameplay to overcome. Cloud, Sheik and Diddy are all great but characters can more or less use their normal gameplans to beat them.

 

[Minordeth]

Let me rephrase: The meta is focused on Bayo more than any other character. She doesn't over centralize but is the most relevant character, largely because how she breaks the normal character format. Turning disadvantage into a kill chain at the drop of a pin, WTi, her ladders etc require extra patient, conservative gameplay to overcome. Cloud, Sheik and Diddy are all great but characters can more or less use their normal gameplans to beat them.

I think you are over generalizing how much other characters can use their “normal” game plans to beat the other top tiers.

Every character has to adjust, sometimes drastically to beat Diddy. Or Cloud. Or Sheik.

Like, what is:

1.) An example of these other characters that can

2.) use their normal gameplan?

Man, this community wants some universal answer for Bayo.

There isn’t one.

Just like there isn’t an easy answer for any character on how to beat Diddy, or Sheik, or Cloud, or Rosa, or whatever top tier character.

Even Bayo mains can’t apply their gameplan universally. Like, check their boards or discord or whatever. Lima is straight convinced Bayo doesn’t have a good answer for a Leo type Marth, for example.

 

[MarioManTAW]

I don’t know how anyone could look at the rep turnout for Frostbite and not think we’d get a slew of Bayos up there.

Just like Low Tier City 5 smh.

 

[ぱみゅ]

If anything, I'd love it if the community finally decide to ban Bayo, as it will prove meta decisions are not based on data, or fairness, but on people's discontent.

You want to know something interesting?
Banning her at a local level (as a test) wouldn't work either because no region is filled with top level Bayos, anywhere.

 

[NairWizard]

If anything, I'd love it if the community finally decide to ban Bayo, as it will prove meta decisions are not based on data, or fairness, but on people's discontent.

No one on this page said anything about a ban. In most Bayo discussions I read on this forum, you're the first one to bring up the issue of a ban. It's almost like you've taken so much personal offense to the idea that you feel compelled to pre-address it whenever anyone says negative things about Bayo or her usage.

Now people did express discontent, and it's difficult not to. Half of top 8 at Frostbite 2018 was mind-numbingly boring (yes, I tuned in for this one). It would be the same kind of boring if there were a bunch of Wrath-like Sonics in top 8, and you would see similar, if not even more*, complaining. Saying "this was a poor spectator experience" is not the same as saying, "This was a poor spectator experience that we need to do something about; ban Bayonetta today!!!!! #banbayo *puts up posters*!"

(*Slight addendum: I would probably not personally complain if there were a bunch of Wraths in top 8, because at least I'd be watching some decent neutral play. Watching Mistake play netural so poorly in this game and blitz through his matches until he runs into a neutral monster like Dabuz or Leo pains me)

 

[The-Technique]

No one on this page said anything about a ban. In most Bayo discussions I read on this forum, you're the first one to bring up the issue of a ban. It's almost like you've taken so much personal offense to the idea that you feel compelled to pre-address it whenever anyone says negative things about Bayo or her usage.

Now people did express discontent, and it's difficult not to. Half of top 8 at Frostbite 2018 was mind-numbingly boring (yes, I tuned in for this one). It would be the same kind of boring if there were a bunch of Wrath-like Sonics in top 8, and you would see similar, if not even more*, complaining. Saying "this was a poor spectator experience" is not the same as saying, "This was a poor spectator experience that we need to do something about; ban Bayonetta today!!!!! #banbayo *puts up posters*!"

(*Slight addendum: I would probably not personally complain if there were a bunch of Wraths in top 8, because at least I'd be watching some decent neutral play. Watching Mistake play netural so poorly in this game and blitz through his matches until he runs into a neutral monster like Dabuz or Leo pains me)

There has been quite a bit of misinformation and salt regarding Bayo, as well as calls for bans flying around in places like reddit and twitter, from top players as well. So much so that Tweek has been especially adamant about how people suck at fighting Bayonetta and he's been tearing into people for the past hour.

Not that the dislike toward Bayo is totally unwarranted, but it's there nonetheless.

 

[ARGHETH]

Reddit has a 400+ comment post talking about if Bayo's ruining the game, there's another post on the front page talking about a 2GGC Banned Saga, and basically all the comments on the congrats post are complaining about Bayo or saying that Dabuz saved Smash 4.

 

[ぱみゅ]

No one on this page said anything about a ban. In most Bayo discussions I read on this forum, you're the first one to bring up the issue of a ban. It's almost like you've taken so much personal offense to the idea that you feel compelled to pre-address it whenever anyone says negative things about Bayo or her usage.

Now people did express discontent, and it's difficult not to. Half of top 8 at Frostbite 2018 was mind-numbingly boring (yes, I tuned in for this one). It would be the same kind of boring if there were a bunch of Wrath-like Sonics in top 8, and you would see similar, if not even more*, complaining. Saying "this was a poor spectator experience" is not the same as saying, "This was a poor spectator experience that we need to do something about; ban Bayonetta today!!!!! #banbayo *puts up posters*!"

(*Slight addendum: I would probably not personally complain if there were a bunch of Wraths in top 8, because at least I'd be watching some decent neutral play. Watching Mistake play netural so poorly in this game and blitz through his matches until he runs into a neutral monster like Dabuz or Leo pains me)

Well, maybe, just MAYBE my own context is different.
On sundays I attend weeklies. Most big tournaments have Top 8s on sunday.
While I am not home, this site uses a lot of data so I rarely come here, only having access to twitter and maybe the tournament's bracket to attempt to keep up.
Sometimes they have a tv with the stream of the big tournament, and whenever a Bayo shows up, there's a lot of complaining, in person, from people I know. I try to tell them what happens during Bayo matches. Yet they keep on complaining and ask for her ban. So I've given up on trying. I'd ignore them but I am a TO so I need to receive feedback.
Then there's twitter, an insane place for sure. Top players making jokes and hyperboles that people take seriously.

From my perspective, there's tons of claims to ban Bayo, and then I get home to get MORE complaining. Receiving this much quantity (and quality) of exposure made me assume these posts are all are of the same vein.

And also the fact that the community has made many decisions I don't agree with.
From banning Duckhunt (that was a problem only in a handful of matchups, and can be avoided by using 2 bans) to not banning Meta Knight in Brawl.
After so many letdowns, I decided to take it with humour if (when?) it actually happens.

But after this post I guess the best for me is to never talk about it again. Thank you.

 

[NairWizard]

Reddit has a 400+ comment post talking about if Bayo's ruining the game, there's another post on the front page talking about a 2GGC Banned Saga, and basically all the comments on the congrats post are complaining about Bayo or saying that Dabuz saved Smash 4.

outside of the comment about the Banned Saga, this doesn't seem to me to be the ban discussion that's being hinted at

Regardless, I apologize ぱみゅ if this was what you were responding to. I only really read this thread. Let me give you a serious reply:

You want to know something interesting?
Banning her at a local level (as a test) wouldn't work either because no region is filled with top level Bayos, anywhere.

Let me pose a question to you. If Bayonetta were actually banworthy, what do you think it would take for the data to demonstrate it? How would we realistically get data strong enough to support a Bayo ban?


Let's assume that Bayo were exactly twice as strong in advantage as she is right now, as in, got double the reward she gets right now on average. I think that we can safely agree that such a Bayo would be banworthy. With this Bayo, would Mistake have beaten Dabuz today? No. Would Salem have still gone out at 4th? Yes. We'd likely have seen Lima and Tyroy place a bit higher, but they wouldn't have won the tournament. Tokiaigi would still have been won by Nairo, even with Bayo being twice as strong as she currently is. What about if Bayo were three times as strong in advantage? Well, then Mistake vs. Dabuz likely goes to game 5, but Mistake still loses, and the rest of the matches don't change very much. Salem vs. Fatality round 1 may swing in the other direction.

So even with this obviously broken Bayo we don't get the data that it would take to support a ban. Bayo would have to be much, much stronger than pre-patch Bayo or even Brawl Meta Knight for us to get to that point. Why? Because not every top-level player is playing her. You have Dabuz with Rosalina and Nairo with ZSS and Mr. R with Sheik and ESAM with Pikachu. These guys will continue to play their characters and perform very well with them throughout the game's lifespan.

The fact is that we just don't have enough Bayonetta players to see the kind of numbers that we would need to to justify a ban. The discussion around banning is obviously centered around discontent.

I would like to believe that reasonable people understand this and that most of us aren't advocating for a ban for this reason (that it's impossible to support a ban, whether she's banworthy or not). When most people talk about banning Bayo, what they're really talking about is her effect on the metagame. They're complaining about her matchups and playstyle and results. She's never going to be banned, I promise you.