Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Game7a1]

... Looking at the frame data, it could be because Ness' and Lucas' aerial froward item toss starts 1 frame later than their grounded forward item toss. Could be. I'm not entirely sure if it's that or animation-dependent.
I don't think it's that useful, though. I haven't found a consistent method yet, but it's difficult to pull off. There could be Up, Back, and Down Toss variations if it is based the air toss being slower than the ground toss, but I'm not 100% certain on that.

So, after some more labbing and reading, it turns out that the fake-out throw is character/frame specific. It only works on characters whose aerial item tosses are slower than their grounded item tosses. One thing to note is that it doesn't just have to be the forward direction. However, the window to get such the fake-out is extremely tight. It's usually a 1 frame window, with just one exception. So below are the characters that should be able to do a fake-out toss and in what direction. I say should because it's partly in theory land.
- Forward, Up
- Forward, Up
- Up
- Back
- Forward
- Down
- Forward (2-Frame window), Down
I have verified (or read it works with) all but Mewtwo, Shulk, and PK Boy's Up direction.
(I should have posted this in the Mechanics and Techniques thread.)
EDIT: After some more frame data reading, I found out that and could do a Fake-Out toss with their back aerial toss (their aerial toss is 1 frame later than grounded toss), but I'm having great difficulty getting the fake-out with back toss. I feel like there's another factor to this, or I could just be bad at this.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

- Down

I wonder what this says for the MU.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

So, after some more labbing and reading, it turns out that the fake-out throw is character/frame specific. It only works on characters whose aerial item tosses are slower than their grounded item tosses. One thing to note is that it doesn't just have to be the forward direction. However, the window to get such the fake-out is extremely tight. It's usually a 1 frame window, with just one exception. So below are the characters that should be able to do a fake-out toss and in what direction. I say should because it's partly in theory land.
- Forward, Up
- Forward, Up
- Up
- Back
- Forward
- Down
- Forward (2-Frame window), Down
I have verified (or read it works) with all but Mewtwo, Shulk, and PK Boy's Up direction.
(I should have posted this in the Mechanics and Techniques thread.)

Nice work very exclusive list of characters. I wonder how effective this technique could be for Peach who can generate her items so basically can do it in any MU. I think I'm trying to make it be mor useful than it is but we will see if anyone adapts it into their play

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

English Tokaigi stream.

http://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

It's live now, but the tourney has not started.

Edit: This stream has different matches. MKLeo was on it earlier.

 

[The_Bookworm]

It is on now! It is now Tsu- vs Larry Lurr (RIP Tsu-).

 

[The_Bookworm]

It is on now! It is now Tsu- vs Larry Lurr (RIP Tsu-).

Nevermind, Tsu- won for the first time against Larry. lol

 

[MistressRemilia]

Y'know, it isn't really my thing to post reactionary small posts, but god damn Rizeasu should have won that Game 1, if only he knew that if the opponent airdodges DThrow Fair at %s that are not true, you can throw one of UpSmash or DownSmash. He also had the option to Dthrow Bair which works on DI away if you nail the RAR fast enough.

Tl;Dr I'm sad

 

[The_Bookworm]

Y'know, it isn't really my thing to post reactionary small posts, but god damn Rizeasu should have won that Game 1, if only he knew that if the opponent airdodges DThrow Fair at %s that are not true, you can throw one of UpSmash or DownSmash. He also had the option to Dthrow Bair which works on DI away if you nail the RAR fast enough.

Tl;Dr I'm sad

If those options are like buttons, it is press the correct one or you miss it. MKLeo performed impressive, as you don't encounter the doctor from day-to-day basis at all. You fight the doctor a little differently than the plumber, but once you figure him out, he falls much quicker. Before Leo faces Nairo, do you guys think Leo got the download on the grapplers yet?

I'm going to bed, so can someone post the progress of the day 1 bracket?

 

[TDK]

Choco goes 0-2, losing 1-2 to VoiD in winners and getting 2-0ed by Rizeasu's Doc in losers.

That was... unexpected, to say the least.

 

[Lord Dio]

Leo................that was absolutely brutal

 

[Deleted member]

MKLeo 2-1 Nairo
MKLeo's Meta Knight was easily the most aggressive thing I have seen. Fast rolls, fast smash attacks and fast aerials were all overwhelmed Nairo. Nairo did get a flip-kick spike at the end which hyped up the crowd, but MKLeo's performance with Meta Knight was just outstanding. Nairo is now at losers brackets. MKLeo has a good shot at winning Tokaigi2018.

EDIT: MKLeo could be facing some competition if Nairo returns, but same with Nairo. Right now Nairo is fighting against KEN in Losers Bracket. We could see KEN vs MKLeo as well.

 

[Nu~]

Brawl MK never truly dies

 

[WiFi]

Tsu beating Larry is impressive. Has he lost to anybody yet? Also people forget that Void is a top 10 player. He could also pose a threat to Mkleo.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

It is on now! It is now Tsu- vs Larry Lurr (RIP Tsu-).

During the same day of the start of the Olympics? Decision of the month, I tell ya.

 

[Deleted member]

Nairo 2-0 KEN
Now Nairo must fight against MKLeo... Judging from MKLeo's skill in general I have a bad feeling for Nairo. If Nairo can pull this through than that would be quite impressive. MKLeo is going again. Meta Knight is just good at laddering . can ladder as well so this will be an intense set. Right now Nairo seems to have the advantage actually.

Edit:
Nairo 4-0 MKLeo (Last Round )!!!!!
Congratulations to Nairo for winning Tokaigi2018!

 

[Nu~]

Bruh tf was that!???

That was SUUCH a different Leo.

 

[Deleted member]

Bruh tf was that!???

That was SUUCH a different Leo.

I think the reason why MKLeo lost four games in a row to Nairo was because Nairo kept him in the air quite for a while, and MKLeo struggled to act. Nairo was able to get KO air attacks and up-b ladder deaths, you get what I mean. Nairo's air game was just so much better than MKLeo's at that time.

 

[TDK]

Tokaigi 2018 (16 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: Nairo
2nd: MKLeo
3rd: KEN
4th: Tsu-
5th: Nietono
5th: Larry lurr
7th: Shuton
7th: Kirihara
9th: Rizeasu
9th: Shky
9th: VoiD
9th: Ally
13th: Choco
13th: Ron
13th: Zackray
13th: Shu

 

[The_Bookworm]

An Update on the PGR v5.

C-Tier
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (1st: KEN) (2nd: Nietono) (3rd: Choco)
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (1st: Kirihara) (2nd: Rizeasu) (3rd: Ron)
Noods Noods Noods: Melee Edition (1st: falln) (2nd: Elegant) (3rd: Eon)
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (1st: MkLeo) (2nd: Shuton) (3rd: shky)
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (1st: Shu) (2nd: Zackray) (3rd: Tsu-)
King of the Springs 3 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Full Bloom 4 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Collision XV (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)

B-tier
Umebura T.A.T. (1st: KEN) (2nd: Choco) (3rd: Nietono)
EVO Japan 2018 (1st: MKLeo) (2nd: Abadango) (3rd: Kameme)
Niconico Tokaigi 2018 (1st: Nairo) (2nd: MKLeo) (3rd: KEN)

A-Tier
Genesis 5 (1st: MKLeo) (2nd: Mistake) (3rd: Salem)
Frostbite 2018 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)

Obviously this is will get updated when Frostbite is over.
These ZSS are everywhere. XD

 

[The_Bookworm]

Posted new thread. Check it out!
https://smashboards.com/threads/the-best-customs-for-each-character.453022/

 

[WiFi]

I think the era of the Zero Suits has begun. There are so many! Tsu got 4th though, which is pretty impressive considering how he outplaced top 10 players like Void. But then again, when Tsu is on fire, he was good enough to give ZeRo a run for his money at the last Frostbite.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I think the era of the Zero Suits has begun. There are so many! Tsu got 4th though, which is pretty impressive considering how he outplaced top 10 players like Void. But then again, when Tsu is on fire, he was good enough to give ZeRo a run for his money at the last Frostbite.

Didn't he beat Larry?

 

[Deleted member]

I am still amazed how Nairo was able to win four games in a row against MKLeo while MKLeo himself won none. He would have had a better shot if he went Cloud more, because Meta Knight was perfect ladder combo food for ZSS. Nairo really powered up against MKLeo, huh. I actually plan to fight Nairo in Smash for Wii U ( I am a subscriber to his Twitch ). Smash for Wii U EVO 2018 is going to be intense.

Posted new thread. Check it out!
https://smashboards.com/threads/the-best-customs-for-each-character.453022/

Dude, do not make posts in here that only imply to you making threads. At least add context to it.

 

[WiFi]

Yeah, he did. He beat Larry, some Ryu main, and a couple of other bad matchups for Lucario, which is pretty impressive.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

Which streamers are uploading the vods?

Alternatively, which stream has all the matches?

 

[The_Bookworm]

I think the era of the Zero Suits has begun. There are so many! Tsu got 4th though, which is pretty impressive considering how he outplaced top 10 players like Void. But then again, when Tsu is on fire, he was good enough to give ZeRo a run for his money at the last Frostbite.

Except that at that point in SSB4, no fought a Lucario at that caliber, let alone Lucario being a little rare in competitive play. Tsu-'s results after that range from being good (outside of top 8) to mediocre for a high praised player (33rd and even 49th), which reflects Lucario's own strengths and weaknesses.

Something I liked seeing from Tsu- during the Larry set is making sure Lucario was at low aura when Larry is at low percent, in order to rack up percent in Larry while at low aura state. Low aura Lucario has a decent damage racking ability.

 

[Lord Dio]

some Ryu main

takera, japan's best ryu

 

[TDK]

https://smashboards.com/threads/the-frostbite-2018-discussion-thread.453016/#post-21917013

Frostbite discussion thread is up.

 

[Deleted member]

Has Diddy Kong's results been getting slightly worse or remaining the same? If remaining safe, then I think he is safe in his spot, but if they are getting worse than it could mean bad news for him. ZeRo's hiatus definitely affected Diddy Kong. Positive, negative, even you get it. Still affected Diddy Kong as he does not have a top representative. If it was positive than this is a good sign that other Diddy Kongs can finally show off their character and take ZeRo's large throne.

Tokaigi 2018 (16 Entrants) (Japan)
1st: Nairo
2nd: MKLeo

I said this earlier, but Nairo 4-0 MKLeo. That is very rare for someone to do that.

Tokaigi 2018 (16 Entrants) (Japan)
5th: Larry lurr

Larry Lurr went Diddy Kong? Why so? Was it to show remembrance of ZeRo?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Has Diddy Kong's results been getting slightly worse or remaining the same? If remaining safe, then I think he is safe in his spot, but if they are getting worse than it could mean bad news for him. ZeRo's hiatus definitely affected Diddy Kong. Positive, negative, even you get it. Still affected Diddy Kong as he does not have a top representative. If it was positive than this is a good sign that other Diddy Kongs can finally show off their character and take ZeRo's large throne.

It is still very early in the season, but yes Diddy results have dropped when ZeRo left, but it still very good and still has strong representation. It is unlikely, so far, that Diddy will return to S tier in the next list however given what we got so far, but again, the season is still young.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Still affected Diddy Kong as he does not have a top representative.

Depends what you mean by "top".

 

[The_Bookworm]

Depends what you mean by "top".

No one in top 20 mains Diddy, which is bad for a top 5 character.

 

[Minordeth]

People surprised that Leo got beaten by Nairo, smh. Like this is the same Nairo who:

- Has been at least a top 5 player the entire length of the Smash 4’s meta.

- Still the same Nairo who made the most absurd Loser’s run in SSC 2017, getting sent to Loser’s in round 2 of pools, then took out Rich Brown, Sinji, Komo, Tweek, Void, Mr. R, Shoyo James, MK Leo, and capped it off by beating Winners Zero across 10 games in Grands.

- Has probably the best CQC and advantage play in the game.

- Makes top 10 players, who main characters with advantageous MUs over ZSS, hate fighting ZSS.

- Routinely confuses people into thinking ZSS is top 3 or something.

- Touches people and they die.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

No one in top 20 mains Diddy, which is bad for a top 5 character.

Again, how does this say anything for the character, and why take it so seriously?

Besides, could one argue MVD to be of such calibre even if I was to take it seriously?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Has Diddy Kong's results been getting slightly worse or remaining the same? If remaining safe, then I think he is safe in his spot, but if they are getting worse than it could mean bad news for him. ZeRo's hiatus definitely affected Diddy Kong. Positive, negative, even you get it. Still affected Diddy Kong as he does not have a top representative. If it was positive than this is a good sign that other Diddy Kongs can finally show off their character and take ZeRo's large throne.

You seem to misunderstand the role of results for tier lists. Results matter to the extent that they help prove theory. At this point, Diddy Kong results hardly matter, since it's been proven time and time again that Diddy Kong is one of the best characters in the game. ZeRo being gone doesn't change the character. Unless some of Diddy's MU* changes (such as, say, Fox players figure out some way to turn the MU into a +1 MU for Fox), Diddy will remain in top 4.

*Or if, say, people figure out how to play Sonic even better or something.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Again, how does this say anything for the character, and why take it so seriously?

Besides, could one argue MVD to be of such calibre even if I was to take it seriously?

Let me rephrase. I think Diddy IS top 5, but people's perception of him dropped due to no one currently ranked in top 20 is playing Diddy. If MVD he keeps keeps up his Genesis performance, he will stay a top 5 character, but without placing as well as ZeRo (which is literally the only reason why he retained his S-tier position in the most recent list), he might drop out of S-tier in the next list.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

such as, say, Fox players figure out some way to turn the MU into a +1 MU for Fox

Speaking of which, why do some Fox or Diddy players believe it to be +1 for Fox?

 

[WiFi]

Fox outframe datas Diddy hard on the ground and the air. The only way Diddy deals with Fox is with Banana, without the Banana Fox would definitely beat Diddy. Also, while not too apparent due to D-tilt to Up-Smash existing, Diddy struggles to kill. Diddy also lacks a good combo breaking move aside from throwing a Banana. However, due to Banana existing, Diddy becomes hard to beat in neutral, combos the hell out of Fox like every character does, and can ledgetrap Fox really badly. This makes the Diddy matchup really scary for both Diddy and Fox players, because with both characters, one mistake can lead to a stock. Think of MK versus the Icies in Brawl, but slightly less volatile.

 

[Deleted member]

You seem to misunderstand the role of results for tier lists. Results matter to the extent that they help prove theory. At this point, Diddy Kong results hardly matter, since it's been proven time and time again that Diddy Kong is one of the best characters in the game. ZeRo being gone doesn't change the character. Unless some of Diddy's MU* changes (such as, say, Fox players figure out some way to turn the MU into a +1 MU for Fox), Diddy will remain in top 4.

*Or if, say, people figure out how to play Sonic even better or something.

I should add more to that. I just think that Sheik is better than Diddy Kong or close to Diddy Kong in term of offensive, not results. Sheik has an amazing match-up spread, a similar neutral to Diddy ( Diddy's might be slightly better ), and has a lot more potential than Diddy Kong. This is just speculation, but I do not know to be honest. I would argue that Diddy Kong is only a tier above Sheik because of Diddy's results in the past.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I could see Sheik being #3 and Diddy Kong #4, sure. They're really close to each other in power level, so it's kind of hard to say who is #3 and who is #4. I still don't currently think that Diddy is worse than #4 though.