WiFi
Smash Journeyman
Nairo vs MkLeo is HYPE. If it even happens. Japanese players are all really good, and I don't think an upset would be very surprising.
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Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis
- Thread starter Gunla
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D
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Do you all think Fox will rise in the next tier list? Thoughts? I could say that like Mewtwo, he is getting slightly better than ever before.
Anyway, this could be big for many top players if they win EVO 2018. If MKLeo wins 2018 Smash 4, his chances of being the best will increase a lot. Same with Nairo and MKLeo. EVO 2018 is going to be an S+ tier tournament for sure and could cause a lot of hard work and stress for many players competing. The thing is, Diddy Kong may have a lot of representation but I fear his placings could be low. Without ZeRo, it is going to be very much determined if Diddy will get good results in EVO 2018 or even keep his S tier ranking in the spot. This year of Smash 4 is looking very hype!
I actually want to happen, because it would be an incredibly hype match. Nairo, who can probably check MKLeo's Marth the hardest with Bowser yet MKLeo can switch to Cloud and make Nairo's ZSS struggle.
Feeling bad for Marvel vs Capcom Infinite fans.
Anyway, this could be big for many top players if they win EVO 2018. If MKLeo wins 2018 Smash 4, his chances of being the best will increase a lot. Same with Nairo and MKLeo. EVO 2018 is going to be an S+ tier tournament for sure and could cause a lot of hard work and stress for many players competing. The thing is, Diddy Kong may have a lot of representation but I fear his placings could be low. Without ZeRo, it is going to be very much determined if Diddy will get good results in EVO 2018 or even keep his S tier ranking in the spot. This year of Smash 4 is looking very hype!
The_Bookworm
Smash Master
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NO WAY! HE MUST BE 7th! IT IS TRADITION!!!
KAPPA
Realistically, I would float him around 6th-8th on the tier list depending on his, alongside ZSS's and Sonic's, character trend.
This is going to be an interesting year for SSB4 indeed without ZeRo.
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Rizen
Smash Legend
I just explained it in the last post. Past stuff:
Who breaks zoning better the character with a f5 jab, 6 js, better mobility in everything except run speed and less lag or the character with a frame 7 jab, the worse js in the game, a bigger hurtbox, that only slightly runs faster? DK's the better character in frame data, mobility and results.
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The_Bookworm
Smash Master
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And he relies less on grab, which I personally think it is an overlooked advantage he has over Bowser.
The character with the better ground game i feel is better at zone breaking and Bowser is better on the ground (overall) than DK. DK having a better jump squat is nice and all but jumping usually isn't a good option when trying to break zones. Jumping can be punished in so many ways when trying to break zones because you can't shield and have to deal with uairs, utilts, usmashes, pivot grabs, shield grabs, projectiles, etc. These options are even harder to deal with when you have **** landing options like DK.
WiFi
Smash Journeyman
The Fox and Mewtwo meta is advancing incredibly quick. As a Fox and Mewtwo dual-main, I can tell you for sure that they both still have a ton of untapped potential.
PURGE THEM LIKE THE
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I just want to say that bowser's dash length (which I assume is the same thing as dash to shield), is 14 vs dk's 16. For reference, shiek and corrin have the fastest at 8 frames. This is something I would think is very important for zone breaking since a shorter dash length means you can push in with shield more easily. However, dk also has a vastly higher walk speed than bowser, and walking lets your shield come out instantly as far as I'm aware.
MarioManTAW
Smash Ace
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Interesting opinion. I'm curious as to why you think that.
My thoughts:
Frame Data:
Every single one of DK's ground moves comes out faster than Bowser's or on the same frame, with the exception of D-smash (Bowser's comes out 1 frame earlier). Comparing FAFs is the same, with the exception there being that Bowser's jab ends sooner than DK's.
DK wins solidly.
Invincibility:
This one comes up a lot when discussing the heavies, so let's cover it. They both have invincibility on the same moves (F-tilt, U-tilt, D-tilt, F-smash, U-smash), with the same exceptions as before: only DK has it on D-smash and only Bowser has it on jab. Most of Bowser's invincibility frames are 1-1 with his attack frames, with the exceptions being F-Smash (covers 2 frames before but leaves the last 2 sourspot frames uncovered), U-smash (covers 2 frames before and 4 after, does not cover landing hitbox) and U-tilt (hitbox comes one frame before invincibility). On the other hand, every single one of DK's invincibility frames completely cover the attack frames and all except D-smash cover more than just the attack: F-tilt upward has 2 frames before, other F-tilt variations have 8 frames before (frame 1) and 14 frames after, U-tilt has 14 frames after, D-tilt has 6 frames before (frame 1), F-smash has 2 frames before and 3 after, and U-smash has 2 frames before. Bowser does have Tough Guy (not really invincibility but this is the closest category), but that isn't quite enough to put him above DK.
DK wins solidly.
Speed:
This one was brought up as a reason why Bowser would be better, but there are a few reasons why I think that's not exactly the case. Bowser does have a slightly faster run speed (17th vs 22nd), but the whole "Bowser is faster" argument ends there. First of all, DK's walk speed is one of the best in the game (9th) compared to Bowser's which is one of the worst (53rd). As for approaching, DK will usually ultimately win because while he may not be as fast while running, he has more options (Bowser's dash attack is garbage so he has to rely on dash grab and dash->shield) and if Bowser slows it down, he won't be making much progress.
DK wins solidly.
Damage output:
Here's the one area where Bowser really shines. Every one of Bowser's ground moves (except U-tilt and maybe D-smash) deals more damage than DK's.
Bowser wins solidly.
Grab game excluded because this whole thing came up from a discussion of zone breaking and grab game is kind of irrelevant unless the zone has already been broken.
I really don't see how Bowser does better on the ground than DK.
Rizen
Smash Legend
I agree with Purge and Marioman. Although I believe DK's a stronger core character and better overall than Bowser, they are close. Bowser has several advantages: heavier, better vertical recovery, the best resistance to weight based throw combos in the game, dangerous landing options, huge pivot range, better OoS game and ledge interception with fire breath. Despite having a similar gameplan Bowser and DK are very different and hard to compare. It's a little like the Ness vs Lucas discussion. DK is to Ness as Bowser is to Lucas.
Envoy of Chaos
Smash Ace
I like that comparison. Both are grapplers but DK being more offensive based while Bowser being more defensive based.
The_Bookworm
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Pretty much the case. There was a period where Bowser is ranked higher than DK because UGC Smash Open happened, and DK's moment to shine didn't happen until Civil War to the end of 2017 (arguably now as well).
Btw, Bowser's landing options, while powerful, is slow and predictable as I said before.
The gist of DK vs Bowser of not only the ground, but a lot of their overall character as well. Nice post!
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Skeeter Mania
Smash Ace
And yet Bowser does worse on defense.
WiFi
Smash Journeyman
Too bad my Fox eats heavies for breakfast. According to many top players, MK and Greninja are the best secondaries, but I think both can be solo-viable as well. Bowser and DK have too many crippling matchups, I think they belong where they are on the tier list, at the top of mid-tier. Both are really good on the ground, but both also have a really bad time landing, just as bad as Marth or Sonic. I think the only reason why they are so high is because rage kill-confirms, and because both have super-high representation, as the super-heavies are better in this game than they have ever been, giving super-heavy mains a time to shine.
Envoy of Chaos
Smash Ace
Disadvantage is not the same as defense. Bowser might have struggle hard in disadvantage but his defensive game is solid. It's hard to approach Bowser if your character can't run over him, his range is good and invulnerable, his pivot grab punishes and whiffed approach option hard. He has moves to cover grounded and aerial approaches, he has a big shield and obviously can take a lot of damage before losing his stock.
He is a character you don't want to get close to but often you don't have a choice.
He is a character you don't want to get close to but often you don't have a choice.
The_Bookworm
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Their representation is good but not that good. DK has some above average success as a solo main (especially in comparison to Bowser).
You are right: MK and Greninja can be played for more than just secondaries. The problem of picking up Greninja as a secondary is that they have to get by it's high learning curve, while being consistent with your own main. This is why picking up characters with a high learning and/or skill curve is difficult unless you want full on main him/her.
The_Bookworm
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So it his "defensive game" is mainly mental? In higher levels of play, you don't often mess up your approaches very much. Putting his pivot grab to good use often requires mindgames and abusing an oppenent's poor approaches. He heavily relies on grabs to begin combos and on certain matchups, finish them off, which makes his own approach scary, but predictable, especially considering his frame data.
His defense game is actually considered among the worst in SSB4. Bowser's only effective out of shield option is his up B, and both his rolls and sidesteps are short-distanced and grant a minimal amount of intangibility frames (his ledge getup has additional invincibility frames though, a trait shared with the Miis). His large size and status as a super heavyweight also make him extremely susceptible to combos, which is further compounded by his lack of effective combo breakers. Although Bowser has neutral B as a projectile, his large size nevertheless makes him vulnerable to camping.
(Disclaimer: He is a good character, but there is some things I want to clear up, and is one of the reasons why Bowser is a little overrated in my opinion.)
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Envoy of Chaos
Smash Ace
You are missing it, his disadvantage is not good there is no denying this but your not playing your defensive game when you are trying to escape from a disadvantage state. You are playing your defensive game when your not committing to being the first to take action, not striking first, not pressing forward, etc.
Bowser might have some bad defensive options like his rolls but he doesn't mind having bad rolls when he isn't likely going to be KO'd early and can abuse rage with his already strong attack power. Much like how Lucario doesn't mind being hit early in a match, Bowser obviously doesn't want to be hit and once he is hit he's going to be taking hits for a while but his tools to prevent being hit in the first place are fairly solid. Having good reaching grounded moves carrying invul means he can keep you from getting near him, good anti airs helps him keep you grounded and that dangerous grab lets him punish you really hard for opting to get near him while grounded. It's not foolproof obviously, if you can smother him in pressure or force him to come to you he is at a disadvantage but Bowser is a character who really rather you come to him unless he already has you in the air. Compare him to say Zelda who is a defensive character that can't play defense and you see what I mean.
And don't be mistaken that mistakes don't happen at high level. Mistakes happen often at all levels, they are just punished harder at higher levels so you don't get to see them as often since they wind up being more costly. Mistakes aren't also always cause sololy by the player in error the other player can cause their opponent to make just as many mistakes as they make themselves.
Bowser might have some bad defensive options like his rolls but he doesn't mind having bad rolls when he isn't likely going to be KO'd early and can abuse rage with his already strong attack power. Much like how Lucario doesn't mind being hit early in a match, Bowser obviously doesn't want to be hit and once he is hit he's going to be taking hits for a while but his tools to prevent being hit in the first place are fairly solid. Having good reaching grounded moves carrying invul means he can keep you from getting near him, good anti airs helps him keep you grounded and that dangerous grab lets him punish you really hard for opting to get near him while grounded. It's not foolproof obviously, if you can smother him in pressure or force him to come to you he is at a disadvantage but Bowser is a character who really rather you come to him unless he already has you in the air. Compare him to say Zelda who is a defensive character that can't play defense and you see what I mean.
And don't be mistaken that mistakes don't happen at high level. Mistakes happen often at all levels, they are just punished harder at higher levels so you don't get to see them as often since they wind up being more costly. Mistakes aren't also always cause sololy by the player in error the other player can cause their opponent to make just as many mistakes as they make themselves.
D
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You know, I am starting to think that Diddy Kong will no longer be the best in high play as someone said. That neutral is amazing and his theory is just bonkers, but I personally think that Bayonetta and Sheik are slightly better than Diddy in really high level plays. Bayonetta is just good at this point. She is a lot more annoying to defeat than Diddy Players and her really good attributes makes it frustrating for top players. Diddy Kong may have a good neutral, but he is honestly easy to gimp. Diddy may have slightly better results than Sheik, but Sheik's match-up spread and attributes just make her a good character overall. Her only flaws are her KO potential and weight I would say. Diddy Kong is still bonkers and a neutral monster, do not get me wrong.
The_Bookworm
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The problem is that his frame data is not very good on the ground. All of his aerials have at least 20 frames of landing lag, with his back and down aerials having 40 frames each. As none of his aerials have favorable autocancel windows, returning to the ground is very difficult for him, or even impossible without air dodging and/or fast-falling, due to his slow aerial mobility. He cannot really throw out his anti-airs without getting punished.
Skeeter Mania
Smash Ace
Isn't favourability subjective in cases like this?
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Minordeth
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Y’all are doing some surface level comparisons here with Bowser. Frame data and broad attribute comparisons are fine, but let’s get into why Bowser is functionally different than DK, and why direct comparison is actually not that simple.
Bowser was clearly designed to be on the ground, as DK was designed to be more aerially based. Look at their aerial mobility, fall speeds, and gravity. Then look at their movesets in relation to their attributes.
1.) Easy to miss, but Bowser has the lowest skid animation in the game. His run is fast because he is supposed to be running. He can literally stop on a dime. More than that, he can act absurdly quickly out of a run. Smash attacks, tilts, whatever. He can essentially buffer them out of his run.
Basically, he has easy mode dash dancing. He doesn’t need to really stop moving, and when he does, it’s precise. Thus, he can bait hard because of it. He can also threaten out of a run more than any other character in the game.
His dash attack has one purpose, because he is built around poking in neutral to bait for punishes.
2.) His underlying attributes. His near floaty fall speed is a weird combo with his gravity and weight. It allows him to get out of combos that would generally connect on other characters. Like DK.
People generally overestimate how much combo food Bowser actually is. Especially out of throws or early game.
3.) Bowser’s aerials are slow. And not safe. Because he should be on the ground. His grounded anti-airs are quite effective, though. Upward Ftilt being pretty key. Bowser shouldn’t be playing in the air in the first place because of point #1.
4.) Tough guy is useless, until it’s not. An important thing that works to camp other characters that doesn’t work for a while on Bowser: Bullet Climax.
There’s more, like his mixups, actual combos, and really gross but underrated ledge game, but this is enough for now.
As a whole, I don’t really think he’s overrated or underrated. He is just rarely seen, and when he is, it’s the fundamental-based version (Nairo) that eschews a lot of stuff that Bowser can do.
Bowser was clearly designed to be on the ground, as DK was designed to be more aerially based. Look at their aerial mobility, fall speeds, and gravity. Then look at their movesets in relation to their attributes.
1.) Easy to miss, but Bowser has the lowest skid animation in the game. His run is fast because he is supposed to be running. He can literally stop on a dime. More than that, he can act absurdly quickly out of a run. Smash attacks, tilts, whatever. He can essentially buffer them out of his run.
Basically, he has easy mode dash dancing. He doesn’t need to really stop moving, and when he does, it’s precise. Thus, he can bait hard because of it. He can also threaten out of a run more than any other character in the game.
His dash attack has one purpose, because he is built around poking in neutral to bait for punishes.
2.) His underlying attributes. His near floaty fall speed is a weird combo with his gravity and weight. It allows him to get out of combos that would generally connect on other characters. Like DK.
People generally overestimate how much combo food Bowser actually is. Especially out of throws or early game.
3.) Bowser’s aerials are slow. And not safe. Because he should be on the ground. His grounded anti-airs are quite effective, though. Upward Ftilt being pretty key. Bowser shouldn’t be playing in the air in the first place because of point #1.
4.) Tough guy is useless, until it’s not. An important thing that works to camp other characters that doesn’t work for a while on Bowser: Bullet Climax.
There’s more, like his mixups, actual combos, and really gross but underrated ledge game, but this is enough for now.
As a whole, I don’t really think he’s overrated or underrated. He is just rarely seen, and when he is, it’s the fundamental-based version (Nairo) that eschews a lot of stuff that Bowser can do.
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Envoy of Chaos
Smash Ace
Again we aren't talking about his disadvantage we are talking about his defensive game. He shouldn't be jumping in the first place that often. His Anti airs are his Ftilt and Up tilt and sometimes up smash all grounded options. Bowser is meant to be a grounded tank.
You don't seem to know Bowser in depth. His side B auto cancels on landing and beats shields. This is one of a few reasons why some people feel Bowser has a better disadvantage state than DK. Better OOS option, side B and Flamethrower (B reversed or not) to help with landing, better options off the ledge, better recovery, he's floaty so he doesn't get true combo'd as hard as DK, lives longer off the side and off the top
All DK has for landing is his aerials and B reverse (or not) Giant Punch (on stage only, as it puts him in free fall). His aerials all have a decent amount of landing lag on them with nair being the only aerial with a decent auto cancel window to land with. The problem with auto cancelling nair is that the auto cancel window is only active before or after the active frames of the nair hitboxes, making it a mediocre landing option at best. His ledge options are worse, he doesn't live as long, and his vertical recovery is significantly worse. He does have bair as a somewhat quick get off me option when being juggled but his back has to turned towards the opponent to use it. Up B is also a fast escape option for juggles but it's also very risky.
The_Bookworm
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As mentioned before in this post:
...his frame data though. His grounded game does have many good traits (his best traits), but his ground game (similar-ish to Little Mac) has it's flaws. Again, Bowser is a good character though.
However, Nairo only uses him as a secondary (which isn't really seen a lot recently) for specific matchups. His solo mains are merely doing average at tournaments.
I know that DK's landing options is not very spectacular at all (and it is worse than Bowser's), but Bowser's landing options isn't too spectacular either. Fire Breath, due to it's angle, is mainly used to edgeguard and isn't useful for landing. Side B is definitely Bowser's go-to landing option, but it does nothing against characters below him, while his down air and down B can be easily predicted. His recovery, in terms of vertical distance, is much better, but it isn't very spectacular either (at least it isn't Melee or Brawl). While somewhat floater than DK, he is still combo food due to being even heavier than DK. I should mention it again, Bowser is a good character.
The_Bookworm
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An Update on the PGR v5.
C-Tier
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (1st: KEN
) (2nd: Nietono) (3rd: Choco)
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (1st: Kirihara) (2nd: Rizeasu) (3rd: Ron)
Noods Noods Noods: Melee Edition (1st: falln) (2nd: Elegant) (3rd: Eon)
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (1st: MkLeo) (2nd: Shuton) (3rd: shky)
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (1st: Shu) (2nd: Zackray) (3rd: Tsu-)
King of the Springs 3 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Full Bloom 4 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Collision XV (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
B-tier
Umebura T.A.T. (1st: KEN) (2nd: Choco) (3rd: Nietono)
EVO Japan 2018 (1st: MKLeo) (2nd: Abadango) (3rd: Kameme)
Niconico Tokaigi 2018 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
A-Tier
Genesis 5 (1st: MKLeo) (2nd: Mistake) (3rd: Salem)
Frostbite 2018 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Any final speculation on Frostbite and Tokaigi before they start this weekend?
Soooo many Zero Suit Samus's. Why is Nietono and Choco 2nd and 3rd in tournaments KEN won?
C-Tier
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (1st: KEN
) (2nd: Nietono) (3rd: Choco)Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (1st: Kirihara
) (2nd: Rizeasu) (3rd: Ron)Noods Noods Noods: Melee Edition (1st: falln
) (2nd: Elegant) (3rd: Eon)Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (1st: MkLeo
) (2nd: Shuton) (3rd: shky)Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (1st: Shu
) (2nd: Zackray) (3rd: Tsu-)King of the Springs 3 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Full Bloom 4 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Collision XV (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
B-tier
Umebura T.A.T. (1st: KEN
) (2nd: Choco) (3rd: Nietono)EVO Japan 2018 (1st: MKLeo
) (2nd: Abadango) (3rd: Kameme)Niconico Tokaigi 2018 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
A-Tier
Genesis 5 (1st: MKLeo
) (2nd: Mistake) (3rd: Salem)Frostbite 2018 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Any final speculation on Frostbite and Tokaigi before they start this weekend?
Soooo many Zero Suit Samus's. Why is Nietono and Choco 2nd and 3rd in tournaments KEN won?
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NINTENDO Galaxy
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I want to see Lucas and Shulk mains make upsets hopefully.
Rizen
Smash Legend
Remember Bowser's vibrate run from Melee/Brawl? I miss that.
One thing to note is DK's recovery is safer than Bowser's due to intangible arms. If Bowser is offstage and forced to upB pretty much every attack beats it or trades. Bowser may have the better recovery but he is easily exploited offstage.
One thing to note is DK's recovery is safer than Bowser's due to intangible arms. If Bowser is offstage and forced to upB pretty much every attack beats it or trades. Bowser may have the better recovery but he is easily exploited offstage.
WiFi
Smash Journeyman
Some character seem to be more popular in Japan. Notice how Edge and Nietono are the only Diddy Kongs in Japan. For some reason, Japan likes Mid-Tiers, Zss, Rosa, Tink, Link, Bayo, and Greninja more than the USA or Europe.An Update on the PGR v5.
C-Tier
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (1st: KEN
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (1st: Kirihara
Noods Noods Noods: Melee Edition (1st: falln
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (1st: MkLeo
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (1st: Shu
King of the Springs 3 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Full Bloom 4 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Collision XV (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
B-tier
Umebura T.A.T. (1st: KEN
EVO Japan 2018 (1st: MKLeo
Niconico Tokaigi 2018 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
A-Tier
Genesis 5 (1st: MKLeo
Frostbite 2018 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Any final speculation on Frostbite and Tokaigi before they start this weekend?
Soooo many Zero Suit Samus's. Why is Nietono and Choco 2nd and 3rd in tournaments KEN won?
JustCallMeJon
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OMFG, Gackt beat Komo, dyr, and Ned and made it to grand finals in a stacked local! Japan is amazing with the mid-tiers!
Let's go Gackt and the Ness Meta!
Let's go Gackt and the Ness Meta
!
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Envoy of Chaos
Smash Ace
Pre Frostbite stacked weekly/minor whatever you want to call it going on right now.
Gackt so far has taken out Komokiri, Ned and Dyr sitting in Grands winners side.
https://smash.gg/tournament/frostbite-ursa-minor-2
Gackt
so far has taken out Komokiri, Ned and Dyr sitting in Grands winners side.https://smash.gg/tournament/frostbite-ursa-minor-2
TDK
Smash Master
Frostbite Ursa Minor 2 (145 Entrants) (Michigan?)
1st: Dyr
2nd: Gackt
3rd: Komorikiri
4th: Ned
5th: Tyroy
5th: LOE1
7th: Sinji
7th: SETHsational
1st: Dyr
2nd: Gackt
3rd: Komorikiri
4th: Ned
5th: Tyroy
5th: LOE1
7th: Sinji
7th: SETHsational
JustCallMeJon
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Gackt placing 2nd in a stacked minor while beating Komo, Ned, and dyr is pretty respectable. If Gackt keeps his cool and focus, he could dish out upsets. I am pretty excited for both Dyr and Gackt. It will be interested in how they will perform on Frostbite.Frostbite Ursa Minor 2 (145 Entrants) (Michigan?)
1st: Dyr
2nd: Gackt
3rd: Komorikiri
4th: Ned
5th: Tyroy
5th: LOE1
7th: Sinji
7th: SETHsational
The-Technique
Smash Ace
Very sad news, Elegant didn't register to Frostbite on time.
The_Bookworm
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Niconico Tokaigi 2018 Entrants (This event is an invitational) (16 Entrants)
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (1st: KEN) (2nd: Nietono) (3rd: Choco)
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (1st: Kirihara) (2nd: Rizeasu) (3rd: Ron)
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (1st: MkLeo) (2nd: Shuton) (3rd: shky)
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (1st: Shu) (2nd: Zackray) (3rd: Tsu-)
International Guests (Nairo) (Larry Lurr) (VoiD) (Ally)
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (1st: KEN
) (2nd: Nietono) (3rd: Choco)Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (1st: Kirihara
) (2nd: Rizeasu) (3rd: Ron)Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (1st: MkLeo
) (2nd: Shuton) (3rd: shky)Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (1st: Shu
) (2nd: Zackray) (3rd: Tsu-)International Guests (Nairo
) (Larry Lurr) (VoiD) (Ally)
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Envoy of Chaos
Smash Ace
Okay CCI anyone seen this before? Could anyone explain this? https://clips.twitch.tv/AmusedBoredMeatloafGrammarKing
Last night it appears that Gatck faked throwing Diddy's banana causing Dyr to drop his shield thinking it had been thrown and got him hit when he actually threw it. You can literally see Ness' arm wind up to throw it then he lands and the animation just stops with nothing thrown. It almost looks to me he auto canceled the animation like you would a aerial before landing but I was not aware you could do this with item throws and this doesn't appear to be character specific. Anyone can share insight into this potentially useful tech?
Last night it appears that Gatck faked throwing Diddy's banana causing Dyr to drop his shield thinking it had been thrown and got him hit when he actually threw it. You can literally see Ness' arm wind up to throw it then he lands and the animation just stops with nothing thrown. It almost looks to me he auto canceled the animation like you would a aerial before landing but I was not aware you could do this with item throws and this doesn't appear to be character specific. Anyone can share insight into this potentially useful tech?
Game7a1
?
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Gackt tried tossing the banana, but he was too close to the ground, so as a result, he "faked" an item toss. I labbed it out a bit after watching the clip, and so far, I've only gotten it to work on Ness and Lucas. I assumed it is character specific because while not similar (because the item will actually be tossed), Pikachu and Jigglypuff have a glitched air-to-ground back item toss. Looking at the frame data, it could be because Ness' and Lucas' aerial froward item toss starts 1 frame later than their grounded forward item toss. Could be. I'm not entirely sure if it's that or animation-dependent. Testing it out with a character whose forward aerial toss comes out before their ground toss (ex. Jigglypuff), the character just goes through the toss animation again.
I don't think it's that useful, though. I haven't found a consistent method yet, but it's difficult to pull off. There could be Up, Back, and Down Toss variations if it is based the air toss being slower than the ground toss, but I'm not 100% certain on that.
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Envoy of Chaos
Smash Ace
After doing some digging I think you are right
Game7a1
its as if the frame the item is supposed to have been thrown by is "skipped" during the aerial to grounded transition state since the aerial toss should had occurred but didn't because you landed. The game appears to be confused as to if your airborne or not. I'd say it's useful a clear fakeout like that will totally mess with your opponents timing on when they should not perceive the item as a threat but, at worse you miss the timing and throw the item anyways on their shield.
This particular instance aside I wonder how glitchy the air to ground transitions could be with other options other then item throws.
Game7a1
its as if the frame the item is supposed to have been thrown by is "skipped" during the aerial to grounded transition state since the aerial toss should had occurred but didn't because you landed. The game appears to be confused as to if your airborne or not. I'd say it's useful a clear fakeout like that will totally mess with your opponents timing on when they should not perceive the item as a threat but, at worse you miss the timing and throw the item anyways on their shield. This particular instance aside I wonder how glitchy the air to ground transitions could be with other options other then item throws.
Krysco
Aeon Hero
I mean, it's thanks to air to ground transitions that Shulk has that shadow I frame thing on his Vision counter. I thought at first that that clip had something to do with Ness' DJCIT since only him and Mewtwo can do it but I didn't see anything that implied he double jumped. Seeing how much the Shulks labbed out setups for the shadow I frame thing, I wonder if particular setups could be found to fakeout item tosses. Wouldn't be as flexible since you wouldn't have access to your aerials without z dropping them and recatching them and even then, characters with zairs wouldn't be able to do that.
JustCallMeJon
Smash Lord
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I don't know why komo, dyr, and Ned didn't tech at Gackt's PKT2 during dire situations for Gackt. I feel the cringe when they lost just because they didn't tech the PKT2. Heck in game 3 WF, if dyr could've tech, he should win from the fact that whenever Ness PKT2 hits something, it shorten his distance.
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