Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[MERPIS]

ZeRo was a "lame Fox," but he quit.

Zero's a lame everything

 

[MercuryPenny]

I’d say we will, one day, get a Lame Fox, but I thought that we would have gotten one in Melee by now, and yet here we are.

i'd honestly be pretty surprised if a quote-unquote "lame" fox showed up in smash 4. his playerbase is pretty average and most circlecampers looking to win will just go over to bayo more often than not.

Zero's a lame everything

did someone bring in snacks because i smell a slim jim

 

[MERPIS]

i'd honestly be pretty surprised if a quote-unquote "lame" fox showed up in smash 4. his playerbase is pretty average and most circlecampers looking to win will just go over to bayo more often than not.


did someone bring in snacks because i smell a slim jim

no just a cheese fingers, get your meme out of here, take it back to twitter.\
*Flaming infraction inbound*

 

[Rizen]

ZeRo was a "lame Fox," but he quit.

Zero's a lame everything

I feel there's a 'lame duck hunt' joke hiding in here.


Back to Marcina, who do they beat out of the top tiers? Marcina's good but lately I think they fit better with high tiers than top tiers.

 

[MERPIS]

I feel there's a 'lame duck hunt' joke hiding in here.


Back to Marcina, who do they beat out of the top tiers? Marcina's good but lately I think they fit better with high tiers than top tiers.

pretty much no one. Lucina pretty much loses to all of them and Marth only does well against Mario and Cloud. Maybe sheik if the debating teams are ready to roll on that day.

 

[|RK|]

I want to note that I don't mean ZeRo was a "lame Fox" in the same way as the other guy. It's not an insult - he was incredibly patient.

 

[MERPIS]

I want to note that I don't mean ZeRo was a "lame Fox" in the same way as the other guy. It's not an insult - he was incredibly patient.

that was before he sold his soul to sakurai

 

[NairWizard]

I keep seeing people say that Fox playing campy is optimal. In what sense is it optimal?
You gotta look at the opportunity cost of playing campy. One of Fox's biggest neutral strengths is his ability to mix up approach options. Fox playing campy forfeits all of his grounded mixups in favor of a single option (to punish whatever you used with dash attack or b-air). That seems inherently worse to me.

 

[Minordeth]

I feel there's a 'lame duck hunt' joke hiding in here.


Back to Marcina, who do they beat out of the top tiers? Marcina's good but lately I think they fit better with high tiers than top tiers.

pretty much no one. Lucina pretty much loses to all of them and Marth only does well against Mario and Cloud. Maybe sheik if the debating teams are ready to roll on that day.

I don’t know about winning MUs since this meta is slow and players are intractable with their styles, but Marth should do fine against Bayo and Diddy. ZSS is reasonable. Cloud is probably okay because pokes and a better ground game.

Actually, he probably beats Mario.

Mewtwo is questionable once Mewtwos start using uncharged or partially charged Shadow Balls to control neutral.

He does well against Sheik if the Sheik forgets he has a sword.

 

[|RK|]

I keep seeing people say that Fox playing campy is optimal. In what sense is it optimal?
You gotta look at the opportunity cost of playing campy. One of Fox's biggest neutral strengths is his ability to mix up approach options. Fox playing campy forfeits all of his grounded mixups in favor of a single option (to punish whatever you used with dash attack or b-air). That seems inherently worse to me.

Honestly, it's not even about being campy all the time, IMO. It's about abusing his speed and switching modes. You can punish a lot as a patient Fox, and escape way more disadvantageous positions.

 

[MERPIS]

Mewtwo is questionable once Mewtwos start using uncharged or partially charged Shadow Balls to control neutral.

everyone that mains mewtwo agrees that marth is winning for mewtwo, MKleo says mewtwo is bad for marth.
Diddy ruins his neutral because of dumb clapping monkey things
Bayonetta contests his range, and can ruin his day with combos up the ass while marth can't do much back, and then there's also the threat of witch time. Welcome to bayonetta, enjoy your suffering.

 

[Deleted member]

Foxes lose matches because they NEVER want to run.

Good point though.

 

[Lord Dio]

I keep seeing people say that Fox playing campy is optimal. In what sense is it optimal?
You gotta look at the opportunity cost of playing campy. One of Fox's biggest neutral strengths is his ability to mix up approach options. Fox playing campy forfeits all of his grounded mixups in favor of a single option (to punish whatever you used with dash attack or b-air). That seems inherently worse to me.

Honestly, it's not even about being campy all the time, IMO. It's about abusing his speed and switching modes. You can punish a lot as a patient Fox, and escape way more disadvantageous positions.

^
Campy Fox requires you to be fire and ice. You have to be willing to laser and illusion camp, while also going in and tacking on more damage than lasers can do, then retret.
Like a hit and run. Also what i think ideal camping should be as a whole for characters suited to it like sonic and bayo.
Also, I think a lack of campy foxes is why we don't think about it more, because thinking about it, with lasers, illusion, and shine stalling, fox has a good deal of camping potential.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I understand. Puff is more than "lol aerials" the character too.

Didn't say she was. Jigg's jab alone has plenty of mix ups for me to not think that.

Falcon's dash options are very good and used frequently in a match, however. I am not saying that a puff should simply crouch all the time during a match it just so happens that puff has a way to beat falcon's dash options, and if done properly, a quick crouch is impossible to react to. Also, if falcon wiffs a grab or a dash attack because of a crouch, the jiggs gets a free rest. Her crouch is a powerful mixup which a Falcon has to watch out for.

Except when dash attack and dash grab whiff they tend to cross up or just not reach, so free rest is unlikely. Neither of them are Falcon Kick.

As for why falcon needs to approach, Jigglypuff can also play the war of attrition. Short-hop fast-fall fair autocancels, and she can drift a large amount during it. Her dash attack is also powerful when it comes to catching landings. Captain Falcon doesn't have projectiles, or a rediculous disjoint, which is the best way to shut down a camping jigglypuff. He makes up for this with his burst options... which is risky because crouch.

Puff is the lightest character in the game with a crappy neutral and not very many reliable kill moves or set ups. She dies really easily. Falcon in a heavy fast faller with a pretty decent neutral, raw kill power, set ups, and 50/50s pouring out his ass, as well as 3 kill throws. Outside of getting edge guarded, which is not as big of a deal or as reliable in this game as it is in the other games, he's gonna live for a while. It's really not that hard to mix up your recovery in this game.

By no means to I intend to insult your intelligence, but you might need a refresher on what attrition means. I would not recommend trying to play the war of attrition with any light character tbh unless they have crazy kill power (Mewtwo).

Like most of her matchups, she can do well when she has the lead, but suffers otherwise.

Also, edgeguarding Falcon is much easier than it is for the rest of the cast. For all these reasons, I feel that the matchup is EVEN.

Falcon out damages her in pretty much every exchange. His moves just do more damage and combo into other moves. It's really not that comparable, unfortunately.
And while it is a bit of a tight range for it to kill, it still does a lot of damage even if it doesn't, I feel I should mention that dthrow > knee true combos on Jigglypuff at specific percents, which can lead to kills sub 60% (which is stupid but I love it)

So I have to respectfully disagree with you on the match up being even.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I keep seeing people say that Fox playing campy is optimal. In what sense is it optimal?
You gotta look at the opportunity cost of playing campy. One of Fox's biggest neutral strengths is his ability to mix up approach options. Fox playing campy forfeits all of his grounded mixups in favor of a single option (to punish whatever you used with dash attack or b-air). That seems inherently worse to me.

People aren't saying campy fox is optimal all around, but are just pointing out how foxes nowadays are completely neglecting slowing the pace and playing more patient and slower.

I think there should a nice balance between aggression and passive play in this game, as the reward for aggression can be pretty game-changing, but playing passive prevents putting yourself in them "prepare to lose the game in one minute" situations.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

I see. You are entitled to your opinion, and I see that you main captain falcon. I main Jigglypuff myself, so trust me when I say I know how she plays.

I think you are underestimating her damage potential. It is actually ridiculous how much damage her individual moves do. For example, one up-tilt combos into down air combos into fair into nair. That combo right there was 43 damage. Furthermore, while her grab has no follow ups, one pummel and any throw does 13 damage.

As for kill potential, she obviously has rest to seal stocks at 55 and above, and failing that, up-tilt will kill at 115. (Most people are surprised by this)

You have obviously had a different experience fighting puffs in your region than I have had fighting falcons in mine. I still think the matchup is even, but you can feel free to disagree.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Back to Marcina, who do they beat out of the top tiers?

To answer this question (I'll put some high tiers/notable characters in brackets too)...

Characters they beat or go even with:
()

Characters that can change based on player/opinion:
(/)
Of these, the only ones that would potentially go to the below would be Fox, Cloud and Bowser. The others would either be even or winning for Marth/Lucina

Characters they struggle with/lose to:
()

Of the middle group, I personally feel that Sheik and ZSS are more than manageable enough to be even, moreso the latter. Fox I explained in a post a page back - playstyle based. Cloud I cannot decide on; some days I feel we go even, other days I feel Cloud has the advantage. DK is also easier than Bowser, guaranteed; at least when you get DK off stage he's absolutely free (Counter on Spinning Kong). Bowser mixes up better. I feel DK is even, Bowser is more a struggle.


The thing about Marth and Lucina, is that they pretty much beat or have an advantage on every other character other than what I've mentioned; there are no other problem MU's. Other MU's can be more difficult ( as an example), but they're enough to dealt with.

They're good characters folks.

 

[Megamang]

I keep seeing people say that Fox playing campy is optimal. In what sense is it optimal?
You gotta look at the opportunity cost of playing campy. One of Fox's biggest neutral strengths is his ability to mix up approach options. Fox playing campy forfeits all of his grounded mixups in favor of a single option (to punish whatever you used with dash attack or b-air). That seems inherently worse to me.

A 'campy' fox to me isn't so much about the lasers and completely running away, as controlling space efficiently. Using PP and his insane speed to force whiffs, and punishing. I think I'd use the option argument to say campy is better actually. When you go in, you are tied to a certain option and can get predictable/punished/stuffed. A fox sitting outside of your range has access to all his options. When you whiff against fox and he PPs back, you are at his whim to how he comes in against you. And if you are being safe, he can tack on damage with lasers using his great mobility combined with B-reversed lasers; this places pressure on you to start hitting him and being aggressive, and he starts to punish really hard.


When you camp, you have to still push advantage hard. I agree that playing campy at the cost of his insane advantage state is a poor choice, but if you hit the gas when you get a hit you can get the solid advantage + stronger neutral. Then you consider that fox is actually insanely good with rage, and it gets scarier.


Finally, the relative weakness fox has to shield is mitigated somewhat with smart play. If you are going agro, the shield will get you OoS or shield grabbed vs you maybe hitting a grab for paltry damage (though opening them to your advantage is a good win, a grab will sometimes get you 6% and sometimes get you a kill from 60 if you don't let them land). If you know that you *have* to go in to hit the fox or you will just die over time to lasers, then your shield isn't putting on the same kind of threat.


Dashing away is a great option for fox, because of his relatively short range he can't really force you down with hitboxes. He waits for a gap in your pressure string and then pushes hard. He forces you down with frame data, but this only works once he gets in.


Depending on what you mean by camping, this may or may not be a campy fox to you. But when I say campy fox, this is what I am referring to.

everyone that mains mewtwo agrees that marth is winning for mewtwo, MKleo says mewtwo is bad for marth.
Diddy ruins his neutral because of dumb clapping monkey things
Bayonetta contests his range, and can ruin his day with combos up the *** while marth can't do much back, and then there's also the threat of witch time. Welcome to bayonetta, enjoy your suffering.

I feel like Marth gets a huge amount of leverage from characters that are threatened by his grab. It is why he was so damn oppressive to most of the cast in melee, you have to get past the disjoint and speed and reward and then you get chucked up for tons of damage and a reset to the neutral, it can be overwhelming. If you are pretty safe after a marth throw, shield becomes a lot more appealing.

Shiek does win, but Marth having strong d-throw followup options vs her is nothing to scoff at. A single tipper out of a throw is more than doubling your reward, that will add up over time for sure.


This applies even more to bayonetta. She actually is in a pretty bad position once dthrown. MKLeo gets tons of mileage off of these mixups. The very general options are if she is using a special or aerial -> attempt to beat it with disjoint. If she is threatening WT, try and grab her and get something going. Worth nothing is that you can threaten a usmash/uair/utilt to get a witch time, and then get an easy tipper fsmash on her because of the way she spaces back.


Really I think marth would win if not for his mediocre disadvantage, the fact his recovery is pretty at risk, and his physics make his death pretty imminent to other stuff.


Final cool tidbit, bayo is one of the matches where counter gets a TON of mileage. Countering bullets gives you a stun jacket, and really this makes your punish game really damn scary. Jab -fsmash combos, all kinds of custom things that make marth's pressure into true combos for her.

If you watch MKLeo recently, he is using counter tons in this MU. (Ill skip over recovery because its been done a bunch and I personally believe trapping her at the ledge is superior with much less risk to yourself). This works her massive hitboxes against her, when she is near she is probably going to attack because she knows any time in range of the sword is a risky moment. It also gives you the stun jacket if she uses bullet arts, which is a good deterrant for her gunning you for infinite chip damage, though once the jacket is on she can just resume shooting without worrying about making the problem worse. Really the only thing that beats counter is waiting and hard punishing which is always dangerous but a risk that bayo also takes in the MU frequently (though her reward dwarfs yours to an absurd level) or a grab, and she can't really play that grab heavy in the MU in my opinion because this limits her range a ton and she needs the range to compete with Falchion


--------


New discussion. Jab. Marth's jab is incredible. Frame data and confirms are well covered so I won't go into that stuff. It is super strong at the ledge. The hitbox placement is great for stuffing options; having a reversed arc to fair is nice for giving you more coverage in any given moment.


Whats new? Every marth should be able to c-stick jab. This lets you do a jab out of Marth's incredible walk. From here you have tons of options, and unless you are predictable you will rarely get hard punished for whiffing a jab.

While marth doesn't have the sliding jab like Lucina, I think this fits each of them incredibly well. Lucina gets some nifty confirms and a nice agro spacing option, Marth gets to space his tippers with precision and stop cold, maximizing his range advantage. Jab -> aerial / DB / Ftilt are great confirms, and jab -> dtilt is pretty freaking incredible at shield pressure. Not to mention jab -> dtilt -> dancing blade when it combos gets you 7 to 10% extra for the confirm, this adds up very very quick with Marth.

If you are liberal with jabs, you will end up having access to the superior-for-shield-pressure dtilt, vs ftilt. This is because the jabs will stuff SH approaches with pretty great reward, flexibility, and speed. Discouraging aerial options is key because if they are on the ground dtilt is a pretty incredible wall.


The cstick jab also gives you access to more mobility and fastfalling windows with nair. Having a bit more mobility really brings out the best in that move, going full speed into someone can net you kills earlier than you would imagine, if they are used to the marth being less nimble with the nair then they may end up trying to drift away and getting tippered nair, which means bad DI and really really early kills.

The fastfalling that can occur as you are nairing is amazing as well. Mixing up how many hits comes out is strong. Also, this gives you a nice FF option to poke as you land and transition into ground pressure, setting them up for good hits or pressuring their shield, or stuffing them and giving you that extra few moments to land a hit.


Finally... backwards FF nairs with csticks are really really good. At high damage situations you get a great strong hit if they come in for you. Pretty much nothing but projectiles and a perfect, perfect corrin Fsmash will punish a driftback nair.


And the coup de grace of this technique is the confirms. Tipper nair 1, fastfalled, moving backwards, can true combo into a tipper fsmash at kill percentages. This is great because it kills SO early that you will get people who are being aggressive and think they are a few exchanges away from being in kill percentage. I love this at the ledge, you can hit a neutral getup and kill outright, land and go into jabs/tilts/standing still to pressure hard, and the slideback gives you an usmash on a ledge roll.

In general marth will only get scarier and scarier at the ledge. I can't really see him falling out of viability at any point, his reward rivals heavies and having a sword gives you a great gameplan where when they get in you can adjust your timing and keep them out (vs my MM struggles of 'how can I even hit this character' in certain MUs, you know your sword can hit them you just have to get it right). Sure he may lose most top tier MUs because of his disadvantage, but they all have to respect him and can lose a game where everything was going normally for their win and you just got a single neutral win and killed them.


SHAD is coooool. SHAD uair is great for opening someone up, people say marth just jumps back to neutral but if you hit a tipper uair on the ground you will get a strong string out of it in almost any situation. Sour uair to tipper uair is a kill confirm. You can bait a WT with a SH and then reactively buffer a uair and start wailing on bayo.


Just some stream of consciousness about Marf. This got longer than I expected but every point reminded me of another plus for Marth. It is telling to me that Zero dislikes Diddy v Marth even though he is THE neutral and advantage pressing player. Trap marth for a while but he gets back and resets and suddenly you are a grab string away from being pretty much even, where he is flying out of your confirms yet you have the deadly touch %s.


Having a strong punish that can be done out of a run, in the air, reversed, and confirmed into by a myriad of moves (DB) is also incredible and will only get scarier as marths fit other moves into their strings before finishing and as they learn the ways to make it tipper. If you hit it centre stage I think DB4Upwards is often the best choice, landing vs marth sucks.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Megamang - I just want to point out that the majority of Marth players, AND Bayonetta players believe Marth does go even, or even beat her (the latter claim I'm not personally agreeing with yet, but that's not the point). Both Zack and Lima IIRC believe Marth can beat her, while players like @Myollnir have stated it's even. Marth players like Pugewst and False also believe it is even for Marth. Leo puts it as a 45:55 in Bayo's favour, but in stark contrast, his win record vs Bayo with Marth is incredibly high...
For what it's worth (very little, i'm no top player), as a player of both characters, I'd rather be the Marth in the MU than the Bayonetta, in most situations, put it that way.

Also look at Leo's win record vs the top Sheik's. This also goes a way to showing that the MU is not a straight up win for Sheik. Maybe an advantage, but even is still a possibility. If Sheik had a good time at sealing out stocks, then it's be a loss for Marth, no way around it. Sheik's general issue with killing (yes, we all know she has setups, but human error is still a thing, and even the top Sheiks struggle to KO sometimes, especially against Marth who can space around her safely to prevent her from getting in) just means Marth gets rage and she dies to general tippers, and, most importantly, Dancing Blade around 20-30% earlier. It's a big deal, especially when you have Jab to safely set things up.

I also think that Marth v Diddy can be even. Even back in Brawl this MU fluttered from minor advantage to one, even, minor advantage for the other, even again etc. The good thing Marth has in this MU is he can force Diddy to play without Banana if he simply grabs onto it, as Marth's special moves work in tangent with eachother very well. Once he has the Banana, he can simply opt for Dancing Blade. Once Diddy starts to expect this, he will shield, which opens up Shield Breaker as an option. It becomes a game of mindgames and guessing for the Diddy. If Marth tires to play this MU with an emphasis on aerial spacing, it becomes harder because Diddy's Fair is dumb and trades with most of his aerials. However, grounded, Jab 1, Ftilt and Utilt completely shut this down. Once Diddy has Banana in his hand, Marth should stay firmly grounded and utilise his walk, and in short, not give Diddy the respect he wants; Marth should be inching as close to Diddy as he can with his walk until Diddy commits to something. Once he commits and Marth can shield/spotdodge, that's a frame 6 punish move that could deal up to 20% for free (Dancing Blade is a bit silly yay). The moment Marth starts giving Diddy the respect and control he wants, it starts to spiral out of control.

However, Marth v Diddy isn't a MU we get to see at top level as much these days to analyse as much, so this one is less open to debate. However, the first two, Bayonetta and Sheik, are much easier to break down.

Also about Jab, it's more than possible to do one out of a walk without the c-stick. With the c-stick, it's just easier to jab cancel it. There are a couple of ways you can do this:

1. - simply press the c-stick into a diagonal corner. Holding downwards during the jab will allow you to jab cancel.
2. - the method I use because it's easier on the fingers: hold downwards on the control stick and then press your c-stick in the opposite direction to where you are facing. This inputs a jab. Because you are already going to be holding down during the sequence, it's less to think about and your jab will almost always jab cancel anyways because of this. You must be careful not to buffer the next jab too soon however, otherwise you get an Ftilt.
3. - you can also jab cancel without the c-stick: hold your control stick diagonally away from the way you are facing after you jab with the A button and you will jab cancel.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Back to Marcina, who do they beat out of the top tiers? Marcina's good but lately I think they fit better with high tiers than top tiers.

My opinion about some Top 30 characters that had the spotlight on them at some point or another
Slight Disadvantage:

Dangerous, but player dependant:

Even/Slight Advantage:


Like I said, Sonic is the only MU almost all Marcinas agree is a loss.
The "dangerous" characters float from slight disadvantage to even depending on your playstyle and expertise with the matchup. I do not believe there's a Marcina with a playstyle that will cover ever single one of those matchups, so Sonic is never gonna be alone in his category.
Out of people in the Top 10 Mario is the only one Marcina has the potential to win against (even then, it's far from a blowout and it's a pretty hard earned win).

I think this depends on what you view as Top Tier, though. I don't think Marcina and Top Tier ever belonged in the same sentence together to begin with. With my definition of Top Tier (Top 5), Marcina were never even close to that. Even if you mean Top tier as in Top 10, I'd be iffy to say they ever even reached that level. Right now I believe they're about 15th and most people at the Lab tend to put them at the 11th/12th mark on average. I think 11th was my most optimistic placing for them ever. No matter how you try to spin it, Marcina's MU chart is frankly really tepid, and their representation and tournament results have kind of been on and off since the start of the year.

 

[ARGHETH]

Right now I believe they're about 15th

...who would you put above them?

 

[The-Technique]

Bayonetta contests his range, and can ruin his day with combos up the *** while marth can't do much back, and then there's also the threat of witch time. Welcome to bayonetta, enjoy your suffering.

Leo has beaten Lima, Captain Zack, and Salem going solo Marth this past two months, the data suggests otherwise.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Puff is the lightest character in the game with a crappy neutral and not very many reliable kill moves or set ups.

Her neutral really isn't crap, it's just mentally draining to play as campy as puff has to. Her air game is strong, her crouch beats a lot of grounded approaches and projectiles, dash attack is a great burst option, utilt is safe on shield and has great reward, and her cqc is serviceable. She does have big problem with is fast disjointed antiairs, like cloud nair. Nothing screams puff ****** as much as clouds nair.

 

[FamilyTeam]

...who would you put above them?

I don't really have a Tier List of mine anymore to say precisely who it'd be. In no particular order, are characters I think are definitely better while and maybe would be around their level.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I don't think it's not so much more than Fox players want to play rush down 24/7 because they want to be "20XX imma style all over you". Fox's aggro tools are very good and he can't afford to give the opponent more opportunity to let the opponent win neutral by committing to playing passively/camping since he's so fragile one extra neutral lose can cost him his stock easily. Note that full aggro doesn't mean blindly dash attack DKs shield at 60, but Fox can fair better trying to push his advantage on DK at 60 rather than hold back, give up stage and reduce his options making it easier to grab him at 60.

I think a good mix leaning towards aggro play is best for Fox, lasers aren't Melee level but you can't ignore the damage (and unstaling) other moves) benefits it offers still.

 

[FamilyTeam]

- the method I use because it's easier on the fingers: hold downwards on the control stick and then press your c-stick in the opposite direction to where you are facing. This inputs a jab. Because you are already going to be holding down during the sequence, it's less to think about and your jab will almost always jab cancel anyways because of this. You must be careful not to buffer the next jab too soon however, otherwise you get an Ftilt.

In case anyone's interested in this:

Remember this protip!
While walking, you can hold DOWN on your Left Stick and input BACK on the CStick to get an easier CStick Jab. pic.twitter.com/tkxP5y9nka

— Family Team! (@FamilyTeamYT) June 7, 2017

Marth and Lucina's Jab is amazing but let us please not take it so far.
The pros are obvious: Jab 2 covers a whiffed or blocked Jab 2, a lot of followups (FTilt, UTilt, DS and DB most commonly) and some mixups (Shield Breaker and FSmash) and can KO.
But let's not forget the elephant in the room of the cons it has: Jab 1 is horribly unsafe on block (and so is Jab 2 so if your opponent just keeps shielding), characters with faster airdodges or recovery moves can actually escape some Jab conversions if they're not in a percent range where they're completely true, it's still a Frame 5 Jab which is pretty eh, and of course, it's coming out of Marcina, which means it has a lot of endlag and hardly any active frames (5-6-7, FAF 26, IASA 18-30). Fast characters can borderline run pretty much a quarter of a stage before you're free from the endlag of that.
BTW SHAD is good but it's also extremely punishable if you do it more than once a stock.

EDIT: Nair 1>FSmash is only true starting at about 80% from what I've always tested and just calculated myself. Even then, that's assuming you land the frame after you hit it and hit the FSmash on Frame 11. You can't get ludicrously early KOs with it because it's completely escapable until late mid percents. It's gonna be true even later if you aren't frame perfect and especially if you need to take your time to do pivots.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Jab 1 is great (backing up FamilyTeam here; let's not overrate it), but Jab 2 is in comparison, relatively useless.

While Jab 1 is unsafe on block, Jab 2 can stuff out attempts by the opponent to punish due to it's quick transition from Jab 1 (frame 18 is when you can Jab 2 - frame 19 for Lucina, it's 1 frame longer), because jab 2 is frame 3 after all and anyone who attempts to shield grab or drop shield will very likely get hit unless their reaction times are godspeed.

Jab 2 serves only 3 uses to me.

1. explained above
2. it is one of, if not Marth's best move for getting rid of Luma safely - the other being tipper Dash Attack.
3. I may sometimes opt for it if the opponent is at mid-high percent when I connect it at the ledge. The angle and lower knockback means a few characters must quickly react to recover, and thus, can sometimes lead to an easier gimp. For example, if I hit Bayonetta offstage with Jab 2, she'll be in perfect distance to ABK back to the ledge. It basically puts her in a predictable position which I can intercept. Should I Jab 1 to say, Ftilt, she'll be launched further where it will be harder to predict what she's going to do to get back until she's closer to the stage. It's niche, and it's generally always better to use something other than jab 2, but it's there.

I just find it funny how two of Marth's most useless moves (Jab 2 and Dash Attack) suddenly become two of his most important/notable in the Rosalina MU lol.

---

On the topic of Rosalina, I still feel like people give Luma way too much respect. A big mistake I see when people get rid of Luma is they'll then launch or even throw Rosalina off stage, which is in reality, a breath of relief for Rosalina; unless you edgeguard her (which is still easier said than done due to how she can mix up her timing and angles with Up B), that could be upwards of 7 seconds you've just given her in Luma respawn time. Get her in the air and juggle her in an area where she really struggles.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Jab 2 is good for what its purpose is as you stated: Failsafe for when Jab 1 whiffs or is blocked, generic but at least guaranteed followup out of Jab 1 and getting rid of Luma. At least it's functional. Don't treat it like it's more than just those things and you have nothing to complain about.
DA has a few niche purposes like sending damaged Luma into tumble, sending an already tumbling Luma farther away, punishing missed techs that you can't reach with DB and it's either too late for SB or they're too low down for it to hit and hitting Cloud away from the ledge at specific times. Easily Bottom 10 move in the game regardless.

 

[Laken64]

Honestly, it's not even about being campy all the time, IMO. It's about abusing his speed and switching modes. You can punish a lot as a patient Fox, and escape way more disadvantageous positions.

The closest fox I've seen gravitate towards that play style is NAKAT imo, most notably in his set against Salem some time ago. He plays quite conservatively when the time calls for it.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

The closest fox I've seen gravitate towards that play style is NAKAT imo, most notably in his set against Salem some time ago. He plays quite conservatively when the time calls for it.

And yet he's recently gotten kicked out of CLG in spite of that.

 

[Illusion.]

Skeeter Mania Was that really necessary?

 

[FamilyTeam]

pretty much no one. Lucina pretty much loses to all of them and Marth only does well against Mario and Cloud. Maybe sheik if the debating teams are ready to roll on that day.

Oh, hey, I'll just say that
Lucina doesn't lose against all of the Top Tiers. She has a hard time against some of them but it's not like her MU spread with the Top 10 is horrible. Marth has basically the exact same MU spread as well so that wouldn't change.
And if by "does well" you mean "beat", Marcina doesn't beat Cloud, much less Sheik.

 

[Deleted member]

Zero's a lame everything

Are you serious? I mean ZeRo is nowhere near lame and is really skilled and one of the best players or the best player at Smash Brothers for Wii U and Project M, and he worked hard to achieve those top tier results. If anything, that was a lame and offensive quote that you said there. No one in the chat should say anything mean to anyone.

 

[FamilyTeam]

When RK originally said "Lame", he meant it in the FGC way, as "playing lame". However, he over there definitely meant it as an insult, and that's not nice.

 

[loops0]

kirby isn't top tier?
this is ********

 

[Deleted member]

kirby isn't top tier?
this is ********

There are so many reasons why Kirby is not top tier... To be a top tier, you have to have top results and top match ups against every character as well as top abilities and powers. Kirby does not have enough of that to qualify as a top tier. I think Kirby is fine at lower mid tier or low tier. Sorry man.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Whats with all the ****posters in this thread lately?

 

[Rizen]

kirby isn't top tier?
this is ********

Kirby's top tier ...in our hearts.


Another huge pro to Marcina's jab (and 90% of their moves) is the huge arching hitbox. Link's jab by contrast can be SHed over because its blind spot. This has always been what sets Marth apart, and often above, other swordsmen. Marcina can cover 360 degrees around them at any time.

While Jab 1 is unsafe on block, Jab 2 can stuff out attempts by the opponent to punish due to it's quick transition from Jab 1 (frame 18 is when you can Jab 2 - frame 19 for Lucina, it's 1 frame longer), because jab 2 is frame 3 after all and anyone who attempts to shield grab or drop shield will very likely get hit unless their reaction times are godspeed.

Seriously? I thought their frame data was the same. Any other changes?

 

[FamilyTeam]

Seriously? I thought their frame data was the same. Any other changes?

In frame data? That I can think of, no.
That 1 frame difference I'd argue is negligible because of how you use Jab 2 after your Jab 1 gets shielded.
Usually (read: literally every single time) if you panic and Jab 2 as fast as you can after your Jab 1 is blocked, the person is still holding Shield and your Jab 2 will just get shielded also and you'll get prompty punished. The trick is to usually wait out a fair bit after the Jab 1 to make it seem like you're not gonna do anything after it (or if you're gonna do something that requires the Jab animation to have ended like Tilt, Special, etc) and then do the Jab 2 when you suppose they're gonna drop their shield for a punish.

Marcina's Jab hits deceptively high up, btw:

It just lasts a really short time. (that's the last, 7th, frame)

 

[C0rvus]

that was before he sold his soul to sakurai

Well joke's on him then. Fox is just as good, if not better than Diddy.

And oof, all those good players removed from the running for Bootcamp already. That event's meme status continues to inflate.