• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
So Bayo has become Sonics worst MU? well, makes sense when you look at the MU history . Even when you leave out Salem who is the "Sonic killer"

It' an MU that would seem good do Sonic at first glance , but yeah once you look carefully at both of thier tools and data you can see how Sonic cam struggle
 
Last edited:

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
How does Sonic even contest her hitboxes? Seems like he is reduced to baiting/hit and run strategies.
 
Last edited:

origamiscienceguy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 30, 2017
Messages
155
At high levels of play, half the cast is fodder for the other half. At low and mid level play, is way every character is viable. Just some people need to put a lot more work in than others.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Who is :4sonic:'s best match up? I think I should check Ken's :4sonic:match up chart. I do think :4sonic:'s worst matchup is :4bayonetta:.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,907
Location
Colorado
At high levels of play, half the cast is fodder for the other half. At low and mid level play, is way every character is viable. Just some people need to put a lot more work in than others.
While higher ranked characters will win more often it's not like lower characters can't win big events. :4link:'s in the bottom half of the cast and got 3rd in Civil War, the biggest event I'm aware of. You can't sleep on anyone in SSB4. With that said, top tiers are up there for a reason; they are better characters.
 

C0rvus

Pro Hands Catcher
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
1,554
Location
East Coast
I imagine both Bayo and Cloud are pretty bad for Sonic simply because it's pretty unfeasible to whiff punish either character at a high/top level.
 

The-Technique

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2016
Messages
613
Location
Maryland
NNID
luckysharm
I imagine both Bayo and Cloud are pretty bad for Sonic simply because it's pretty unfeasible to whiff punish either character at a high/top level.
Cloud is doable, Bayo is harder for Sonic.

Mr. E :4lucina: 3-0s Larry Lurr :4fox::4dk:

Nice to see Mr. E get a good win after his not-so-great performance this season.
 
Last edited:

Ilikebugs

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 22, 2016
Messages
39
Is IBP an A tier? If the PGstats sheet is correct Lucina made Top 8 at an A tier and Mii Gunner made top 16
 

The-Technique

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2016
Messages
613
Location
Maryland
NNID
luckysharm
Is IBP an A tier? If the PGstats sheet is correct Lucina made Top 8 at an A tier and Mii Gunner made top 16
Right now that Mii Gunner is 1-0 over Xzax in this tournament in Losers, this is pretty nuts.

Woops, Xzax 3-1'd him, still I've never seen a Mii Gunner move like that.
 
Last edited:

valakmtnsmash4

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
708
NNID
yathshiv
I would like to congratulate AEMehr AEMehr for his amazig preformance at IPB masters with a top 16 finish. Good work beating manny today.
 

Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
Bayo seems to just kinda hit on Sonic's weaknesses. He loses to trapping vertically; she can just fall with him and swing aerials that either link into deadly (again vertical) combos, or at higher damage those aerials just kill. From the highlight video I saw, it seemed like Ken would be airdodging a bair... and tweek just positions himself so another bair punishes the airdodge, lol. Or nair, or uair at combo percentages.


Not to mention he struggles with good hitboxes, which she has in every direction. And he can't really lame her out without a discrete stock lead, because of bullets. He is pressured to go in the entire game while she gets free chip damage. Even when the sonic kills me, if I'm bayo I am totally content to sit outside his range and fire bullets while stacking up damage, then ill get the kill with the least amount of damage taken.


Also, his escape option... launches him into the air. Against most characters this is an ok to mediocre reset, against bayo she can just come at you hard with aerials and ABKs and punish you for being high in the air.


Sonic still has invincibility on his special which lets him zonebreak, bayo is still combo food (though Sonic's traps change, he has to grab a ton more which is ok but doesn't do heavy damage like spindash confirms... those are super risky with ok reward vs bayos amazing reward for a good WT)


She can launch up and snag him for anything besides impeccable spacing. Even then he sticks his leg out and she can probably grab it.

But really, when you play sonic and he slowly takes down your options and suddenly you know you're gonna get hit, and then you take 40% from spindash blasting through your move.. how much do you wish you had an effective counter? That slows him down, hits with generous frames since he can mix it up a little?

Not to mention, when he dinks your shield it becomes a game of chasing him up to punish, which again bayo excels at. If sonic didn't have his vertical combo game it would probably be a blowout, and even that is really risky because if you read an airdodge and get it wrong you can get divekicked or witch twisted, AGAIN these are super deadly and make his generous risk reward actually slanted against him for once.


She also puts out a ton of damage in the early game, which is exactly where sonic wants to take his lead. She also takes advantage of his recovery uniquely well, with auto guards just by holding A... Conversely, spring is not really scary at all for bayo, she almost always has a way around it and even if it hits the reward is paltry. Hell, she only gets better at randomly winning with rage so at a certain point your damage is counterproductive until you can throw kill her. Its like someone made a character to kill Sonic


Cloud is rough too, nair is just amazing. How is sonic getting better in the meta with these monsters around? I've noticed more smash 4 super early kills with him which is genuinely scary, but otherwise... meh.
 
Last edited:

Finh009

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 10, 2016
Messages
143
Location
Hidden Village
NNID
Finh009
Sumabato 22 (Kansai, Japan) (Entrants: 161)
Bracket: http://challonge.com/sumabato22T

1st. Sigma :4tlink:
2nd. Chanshu :4ryu:
3rd. Selcia :4cloud:
4th. Edge :4sheik:
5th. Masashi :4cloud2:
5th. Eda :4falcon:
7th. Shogun :4fox:
7th. Kie :4peach::4palutena:

9th. Hauberk :4falcon:
9th. ikep :4bayonetta2:
9th. Massyu :4cloud2:
9th. Tatsutsuyo :4mario:
13th. Ako :4zss:
13th. Kome :4shulk:
13th. Kuma :4peach:
13th. Rizeasu :4marth::substitute:

I honestly feel if anyone is gonna save Toon Link's meta at this point, it will be Sigma.
 
Last edited:

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
His meta "needs saving".

Interesting word choice.
 
Last edited:

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
His meta "needs saving".

Interesting word choice.

The top tier character whose meta needs saving at this point is Mario, unless Ally can get back to his 2016 performance level. Does not help that Bayo now seems to be as bad an MU for Mario as Sonic is. For reasons which I have explained previously.

Mario may have 2 40:60 losing MU's vs two permanent top tiers, which does not bode well him either.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,907
Location
Colorado
It's interesting how top tiers like Mario and Sonic are getting DLC power creeped by Cloud and Bayo. A big reason Diddy and Sheik do so well is they have good MUs with them. I still think Mario is top tier; it's not like he suddenly does worse vs anyone else. The thin line between the top 4 and the rest of the top tiers is thickening.

PS I consider "top tier" to be 2 actual tiers.
 

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
It's interesting how top tiers like Mario and Sonic are getting DLC power creeped by Cloud and Bayo. A big reason Diddy and Sheik do so well is they have good MUs with them. I still think Mario is top tier; it's not like he suddenly does worse vs anyone else. The thin line between the top 4 and the rest of the top tiers is thickening.

PS I consider "top tier" to be 2 actual tiers.

Well both Mario and Sonic to do not like large and long lasting hitboxes and Cloud and Bayo both have that in large supply.

I will still out Mario may be #10 due do no other up-and-coming high tier characters have done enough to outpace him yet.

Ryu seems to be struggling even worse than Mario is the meta

Marcina have fallen off but seem to be doing ok now.

Corrin has also been doing pretty good recently, but I am not sure if he/she cpuld be considered top 10 material.
 
Last edited:

Goombo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
99
So, Salem just won Tipped Off 12 from Winners Side with solo Greninja, including wins over Sonido, Mew2King and Fatality.

I'm hype. ◥θ┴θ◤
 
Last edited:

The-Technique

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2016
Messages
613
Location
Maryland
NNID
luckysharm
we're all sleeping on Sonic and meanwhile KEN hasnt dropped a single game at IBP so far
 
Last edited:

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
we're all sleeping on Sonic and meanwhile KEN hasnt dropped a single game at IBP so far

Well I am not saying Sonic is bad. I am just brining up that Bayo is a bad MU for Sonic and likey his worst one.

Something that KEN also thinks according to his latest MU chart for Sonic
 

Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
From the PC gaming world, don't buy an IBP unless you have disposable income and reaaallly don't want to build a PC.


From the smash world... thanks IBP for hosting this event, I hope it gets ya commission. Who knows, maybe with a code during the tournament you could get a good deal.


Can I get a stream link?
 

ShadowGuy1

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
1,311
we're all sleeping on Sonic and meanwhile KEN hasnt dropped a single game at IBP so far
Well that also has to do with KEN just being an amazing player. He’s easily Top 10 this season and if he was able to travel more he would imo be top 5. But a lot of the convo was about Bayonetta Sonic matchup something with KEN himself thinks is bad.
 

Lord Dio

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 18, 2016
Messages
2,187
Location
FE Saga (I wish)
3DS FC
1435-7744-1699
Mr E took Komo to game 5.
Nearly had a heart attack.
Komorikiri vs Larry Lurr is Loser's Semis, no why does that fight sound familiar?
Oh yeah. it's been done multiple times this season.
 

The-Technique

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2016
Messages
613
Location
Maryland
NNID
luckysharm
Well I am not saying Sonic is bad. I am just brining up that Bayo is a bad MU for Sonic and likey his worst one.

Something that KEN also thinks according to his latest MU chart for Sonic
in the previous page we were talking about how forcing sonic to fight vertically was an underused tactic, even though sonic has a lot of ways to deal with empty hops and can easily whiff punish short hop aerials or shield into them that they become unsafe

(not directed at you) bayonetta beats sonic, but cloud? sonic beats cloud like he beats all the other sword characters that should do well vs him in theory but almost never in practice. when people say its "just KEN" its like saying its "just Zero", all the other Sonics need to step up their game.
speaking of KEN, Leo got the run back in a last game last hit situation with :4metaknight:, preventing the same reverse 3-0 that happened in Leo saga
 

ARGHETH

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
1,395
in the previous page we were talking about how forcing sonic to fight vertically was an underused tactic, even though sonic has a lot of ways to deal with empty hops and can easily whiff punish short hop aerials or shield into them that they become unsafe

(not directed at you) bayonetta beats sonic, but cloud? sonic beats cloud like he beats all the other sword characters that should do well vs him in theory but almost never in practice. when people say its "just KEN" its like saying its "just Zero", all the other Sonics need to step up their game.
speaking of KEN, Leo got the run back in a last game last hit situation with :4metaknight:, preventing the same reverse 3-0 that happened in Leo saga
It isn't just Hbox, Puff-Fox is 60-40.
 

Lord Dio

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 18, 2016
Messages
2,187
Location
FE Saga (I wish)
3DS FC
1435-7744-1699
Larry 3-1 KEN
all 4 games on battlefield.
I have to wonder if KEN and komo knew prior not to take Larry to BF.
Leo won Game 1, but still.
why are people takign this man to his best stage.
Why are they not banning it.

Edit, I can't remember the last time I saw a somewhat stacked tournament have a GFs go so fast.
Larry just played 9 games in a row on Battlefield, lost 5 of them.
But, he conquered KEN. But I think the only person who actually messes up larry more than leo is ZeRo.
 
Last edited:

Baby_Sneak

Smash Champion
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
2,029
Location
Middletown, Ohio
NNID
sneak_diss
Well that also has to do with KEN just being an amazing player. He’s easily Top 10 this season and if he was able to travel more he would imo be top 5. But a lot of the convo was about Bayonetta Sonic matchup something with KEN himself thinks is bad.
Oh yea, this isn't a proper argument.

KEN is amazing, but he's able to do what he does thanks to sonic's kit and capabilities. Both factors (character and player) has always contributed to the results, so completely alienating one factor is a big logical flaw.
 

TDK

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
3,717
Location
British Columbia
NNID
GrayCN
iBYPOWER Masters Showdown (131 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: MKLeo :4cloud2: :4metaknight:
2nd: Larry Lurr :4fox: :4dk: :4bowser:
3rd: KEN :4sonic:
4th: Komorikiri :4cloud2: :4sonic:
5th: Mr. E :4lucina:
5th: VoiD :4sheik:
7th: Mr. R :4sheik:
7th: Mr. Con Con :4luigi:
 

ARGHETH

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
1,395
Also, while we're talking about KEN and Sonic, I'd like to note that he thinks Sonic loses to Bayo, Cloud, Rosa, and maybe Diddy, Mewtwo, and Sheik.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom