Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[origamiscienceguy]

But does he have kill confirms?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm but zard's hitbox is extended when he uses certain attacks (his grab and dtilt), using rock smash stops all of his momentum and his air speed isn't great. He also has a glaring weakness in his traction, which makes shield punishing harder, considering he's a 'bait and punish' character, having poor traction hurts his offensive game plan.

edit:As for kill confirms....the only thing he has is uthrow, which, while being the third strongest uthrow in the game, requires him to get a grab. Almost all of his other kill moves rely on reads or punishes. He doesn't have a hoo-ha, a koo-pa, or anything like that.

 

[MERPIS]

But does he have kill confirms?

uthrow is good enough of a kill confirm on its own, zard also has a dthrow to dair at the edge or dthrow to uair at around 100%, but its risky.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Low Tier City 5 (384 Entrants) (Texas)

1st: Tweek
2nd: ZeRo
3rd: Mistake
4th: ESAM
5th: Lima
5th: Captain Zack
7th: Abadango
7th: Larry Lurr
9th: DeluxeMenu
9th: Illusion
9th: Karna
9th: Light the Lantern
13th: Kurry
13th: Chuck Nasty
13th: ARMY
13th: Twi

So does LTC count as a major. If then this would one a Solo Cloud has taken. So. are we going to see as much hate and salt for Cloud and people saying we should ban him now?

Somehow ..I doubt it. hot day for double-standards ..

 

[origamiscienceguy]

So does LTC count as a major. If then this would one a Solo Cloud has taken. So. are we going to see as much hate and salt for Cloud and people saying we should ban him now?

Somehow ..I doubt it.

Can you please stop attempting to bait people into talking about that? This is not the thread for those discussions. Nor is it constructive in any way.

 

[MERPIS]

So does LTC count as a major. If then this would one a Solo Cloud has taken. So. are we going to see as much hate and salt for Cloud and people saying we should ban him now?

Somehow ..I doubt it.

naw, unlike Bayo, Cloud isn't horribly designed to the point of him having no bad MUs. Cloud has sketchy MUs like Pika, Sheik, Sonic..? according to MK Leo, and Diddy.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

naw, unlike Bayo, Cloud isn't horribly designed to the point of him having no bad MUs. Cloud has sketchy MUs like Pika, Sheik, Sonic..? according to MK Leo, and Diddy.

Cloud is looking like a pretty sketchy MU for Bayo. Salem is the only one that seems to have at least an even record vs top Clouds

 

[Nathan Richardson]

uthrow is good enough of a kill confirm on its own, zard also has a dthrow to dair at the edge or dthrow to uair at around 100%, but its risky.

Actually zard's knockback makes any follow-up on dthrow useless at certain percents, you can try dthrow to uair but the opponent will recover before you reach them and will either jump out of the way or airdodge which is very easy to do as the window is...fairly tight. Though you did say it was risky.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

naw, unlike Bayo, Cloud isn't horribly designed to the point of him having no bad MUs. Cloud has sketchy MUs like Pika, Sheik, Sonic..? according to MK Leo, and Diddy.

As far as I know, many Sonics (like 6WX, Manny, and KEN) consider Cloud (one of his) worst MUSs.

 

[MERPIS]

As far as I know, many Sonics (like 6WX, Manny, and KEN) consider Cloud (one of his) worst MUSs.

KENs record against MK Leo's cloud makes me believe its either even or Sonic's favor. This MU is pretty much a battle of opinions at this point.

Actually zard's knockback makes any follow-up on dthrow useless at certain percents, you can try dthrow to uair but the opponent will recover before you reach them and will either jump out of the way or airdodge which is very easy to do as the window is...fairly tight. Though you did say it was risky.

eh, it works on idiots, plus its not like zard needs kill confirms when he has that beast of an uthrow

 

[Lord Dio]

third strongest uthrow in the game

What.
I know Mewtwo, but who else is stronger? Thought zard was #2.

 

[TDK]

So does LTC count as a major. If then this would one a Solo Cloud has taken. So. are we going to see as much hate and salt for Cloud and people saying we should ban him now?

Somehow ..I doubt it. hot day for double-standards ..

LTC is more of a stacked regional than a major.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

What.
I know Mewtwo, but who else is stronger? Thought zard was #2.

Nevermind, thought this was Melee.

 

[Rizen]

Zard has a few traits better than the 2 heavies better than him, he isn't juggled as hard due to his multiple jumps and rock smash, his mobility is so much better, he can juggle people rather well, he also bad a little bit of a smaller hurtbox, meaning he isn't combo'd as hard, his frame data is so much better as well. I believe zard could go as high as top 20, higher than bows and dong even.

DK's mobility is better than charizard's. Better air/walk speed, traction, 1 frame faster jump squat, faster falling, and higher jump. Char has the better run speed and a 3rd jump. Char's hurt box is extended by his neck so I'd give that to DK too. I agree with the rest but don't see Char higher than lower mid tier.

 

[MERPIS]

DK's mobility is better than charizard's. Better air/walk speed, traction, 1 frame faster jump squat, faster falling, and higher jump. Char has the better run speed and a 3rd jump. Char's hurt box is extended by his neck so I'd give that to DK too. I agree with the rest but don't see Char higher than lower mid tier.

so you tell me that Zard is a L O N G B O I?

 

[TheRabidChipmunk]

What.
I know Mewtwo, but who else is stronger? Thought zard was #2.

Zard actually has the strongest uthrow in the game but it's angle means DI has a strong impact on it. Meanwhile mew2's uthrow sends at a perfect 90° angle so DI matters less

 

[The-Technique]

Meanwhile at Smash Factor, NAKAT eliminates Chag 3-1, Mexico's best Bayo IIRC.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Zard actually has the strongest uthrow in the game but it's angle means DI has a strong impact on it. Meanwhile mew2's uthrow sends at a perfect 90° angle so DI matters less

It's worth noting that Zard's up throw will land on upper platforms meaning the opponent will be killed very early at times.

That said, up throw might as well be worthless on certain stages.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

It seems that the heavyweights got a lot more love in this game than in the previous titles.

Except 3D. RIP.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Yeah 3D was powerful in brawl right? Did they just do a 180 and nerf him to high heaven?

 

[The-Technique]

Kameme's Wario actually putting in work right now, good lord.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

On a side note I made a serious goof up in wording
I said zard had the third strongest uthrow
the proper wording was that zard had the third strongest KILL throw, behind ness and mewtwo.
My bad, sorry for the confusion.

 

[Lord Dio]

It seems that the heavyweights got a lot more love in this game than in the previous titles.

Except 3D. RIP.

and ganon. He got love, but not nearly enough.

 

[arbustopachon]

Lucas u-throw also kills earlier than Zard's with optimal DI, in some situations you are better off f-throwing than u-throwing with the lizard.

Edit: Is Zard's autocancelled nair to fair a true kill confirm? I remember seeing a DkWill vs Sharpy set where Sharpy used it to close a stock and said it was guaranteed, but im not sure if it is a DK only thing.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

As far as I know, Zard has no true kill confirms.

He's just really solid at killing in general.

Kill confirm would be nice though.

 

[|RK|]

DK/Bowser are easily high tier. I say this again after watching NAKAT's DK CP take Kameme out of Smash Factor 6.

 

[Lord Dio]

I mean, kill confirms are nice and all, and it was pointed out that you can get down throw to up air or dair at ledge if they don't DI.
Plus you have sourspot nair into weak hit of up smash jab lock, the angle that d smash sends you at, plus that bair and fair.....zard's just good at killing overall. If he did have a kill confirm he'd probably rise a tier.

 

[blackghost]

esam and tweek have the best understanding of what to do against bayo they do well in the mu. if you want to learn what to do vs her may want to watch them fight her. the key is landings punishes and sdi
tweek got 30-40 percent from bad witch times and landings
esam pressured SAFELY forcing defensive options (also assisted by a bayo trying to CP to lylat agianst a pika which is questionable)
congrats to tweek he played well.
mistake and zach are legit good bayo players. lima is getting by due to his opponents not knowing the mu he makes a lot of mistakes and over-extensions he shouldn't be doing as well as he has been doing.
i doubt this game will become bayo v bayo because how the mirror works is just its hard to explain but my fellow bayo players can try.

 

[TDK]

Smash Factor 6 (319 Entrants) (Mexico)

1st: MKLeo
2nd: Mr. R
3rd: NAKAT
4th: Kameme
5th: Bedgar
5th: Javi
7th: Serge
7th: Rox
9th: Wonf
9th: Chaplin
9th: Chag
9th: Captain Levi
13th: ANTi
13th: OBA
13th: Richi
13th: Waymas

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

esam and tweek have the best understanding of what to do against bayo they do well in the mu. if you want to learn what to do vs her may want to watch them fight her. the key is landings punishes and sdi
tweek got 30-40 percent from bad witch times and landings
esam pressured SAFELY forcing defensive options (also assisted by a bayo trying to CP to lylat agianst a pika which is questionable)
congrats to tweek he played well.
mistake and zach are legit good bayo players. lima is getting by due to his opponents not knowing the mu he makes a lot of mistakes and over-extensions he shouldn't be doing as well as he has been doing.
i doubt this game will become bayo v bayo because how the mirror works is just its hard to explain but my fellow bayo players can try.

Actual discussion on the Bayo matchup, thank you. Could you help me clarify a few things? I don't think I'll get the chance to analyze this for a while now.

For Tweek's ability to land punishes: how is he setting up punish opportunities, both with spacing and moves? Are punishes more dependant on the openings the Bayo player leaves or the ones their opponent creates? What traits make a character good at finding punish opportunities?

SDI: It's my understanding that a good Bayo can punish no matter how you SDI, but mixing up yor options can free you from the combo. Do any Bayo players claim they can react to SDI as opposed to guessing options?

ESAM and pressure: Was it a viable option for ESAM's opponents to wait and allow Pika to approach? What traits allow characters to remain patient and wait for the Bayo to commit to an approach before engaging them?

 

[The-Technique]

Poor Mr. R, cursed to always take 2nd no matter what. And this time Leo didn't even switch off Marth and double eliminated Mr. R in grand finals. Congrats to him.

Get the **** off my smashboards

And with that I'm ready for another week long ban for keeping it real when no one else will.

I'm ready mods.

SEND ME TO THE SHADOW REALM!!!!!!

I say let this man live, lmao.

 

[teddystalin]

1st: MKLeo

MKLeo didn't use any Cloud during top 32 (at least, possibly didn't in pools either), so it seems disingenuous to list him first.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

As far as I know, Zard has no true kill confirms.

He's just really solid at killing in general.

Kill confirm would be nice though.

I think the reason they didn't give zard a kill confirm combo was because he's so solid at killing. I mean take your pick, usmash hits fast, has good range and kb, you can get a kill at 100% with it, maybe less.
Bair has the easiest to hit sweetspot out of all of zard's moves, hit someone with that at mid-stage at 70% and that's a stock loss, less if they're at or near the ledge.
dsmash and fsmash are slow and laggy but anyone hit by those is going to be sent flying, you can seal a stock effortlessly if you hit with them.
Fair is as fast as some other characters fairs and is the fastest of zard's aerials, it also has excellent kb so it's great for edgeguarding.
dair is slow but the kb and huge hitbox means zard can use it to edgeguard without leaving the stage, properly timed you can counter a ledgesnap.
uthrow has already been discussed but at higher percentages fthrow and bthrow work too. Rock smash if you get the read will send opponents flying skyward on hit, I've won matches on FD using this move.
Flare blitz is a move I try to avoid using but it's an excellent finishing blow, properly timed it's a stock loss.
Fly is risky but it's kb is so high on the last hit that you can get a star ko with it if you counter an edgeguarding attempt, the invincibility frames don't hurt either.
finalyy utilt is a move that's actually faster than usmash and has just as much KB making it super risky to approach zard from directly above.
Tl;dr zard has a plethora of kill options but if he had a kill confirm he'd go from lower mid to high tier easy as once he's got the damage he can just choose whatever kill move he wants.

 

[Lord Dio]

3rd: NAKAT
4th: Kameme

Good lord. Happy to see representaion, but eight different characters across two players?! Wow.
Fatality will likely have to fight Kameme at SSC, right? I could see him getting the win with Wario, as it's the only one of those four Fatality doesn't have much experience with (plus he lost to Glutonny, so if he hasn't learned from that it's on him).

 

[Nobie]

Mewtwo is actually relatively unaffected by losing a top player. Someone did a chart a while bag showing what happens when a character loses their best player, and Mewtwo went from consistent top 8 to... Consistent top 8.

Also let's talk about whatever Wheaties the LoFT has been eating as of late. False, Tweek, and Nakat have all been putting in work since EVO and are leveling way the hell up.

 

[L9999]

No one is going to mention ESAM's incredible performance and how on point his punish/combo game was? As a Pikachu pessimist I was really impressed, makes me think the rat could rise in some capacity.

 

[Ilikebugs]

I bring forward a motion to make bayo ban discussion red listed, maybe MERPIS ****posts too

 

[Lord Dio]

Mewtwo is actually relatively unaffected by losing a top player. Someone did a chart a while bag showing what happens when a character loses their best player, and Mewtwo went from consistent top 8 to... Consistent top 8.

Do you know where I could find this? We've brought this up before, and I'd like to see what the results.

 

[Poisonous]

Good lord. Happy to see representaion, but eight different characters across two players?! Wow.
Fatality will likely have to fight Kameme at SSC, right? I could see him getting the win with Wario, as it's the only one of those four Fatality doesn't have much experience with (plus he lost to Glutonny, so if he hasn't learned from that it's on him).

Fatality has plenty of Wario experience via Reflex in past though. If anyone knows the MU, it's him.

 

[FeelMeUp]

SDI: It's my understanding that a good Bayo can punish no matter how you SDI, but mixing up your options can free you from the combo. Do any Bayo players claim they can react to SDI as opposed to guessing options?

I can respond to this.
No Bayo player can "react" to SDI. It's physically impossible.
and with very good SDI it's impossible to get laddered without singlehit nonsense.
Mr. R and Captain Zack had a conversation in a list of tweets about how people keep thinking Bayo can "cover everything regardless of DI." It upset Zack because it was apparently blatant misinformation. With hard SDI down on Witch Twist1 and Fair(depending on character), Bayo often can't follow up with anything at all past 50ish.
Sucks that I can't find it anymore, though. Maybe they deleted them.