Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Nathan Richardson]

And this conversation has quickly given me a headache 'Bayo is the best character in the game!'
'She wouldn't be so good if the players facing her would stop making mistakes!' 'She may be bad but she isn't brawl MK bad!' 'Bayo's ruining the meta! Noone can touch her!'

And on and on, we have this argument EVERY SINGLE TIME BAYONETTA IS BROUGHT UP!!! How long has post-patch Bayo been out?!? How long?!?
If she really can be fought why is she dominating the top 8's in tourneys if not outright winning them? Why does her MU chart look like she has no solid hard counterpicks?
I don't mean to be 'that whiny guy' but whoever doesn't think she isn't the best character in the game or horribly overtuned even with the nerfs needs to wake up and stop fanboying because the tourny results say otherwise!
Do I advocate banning her? Of course not, it'd be stupid of me to do so and every single person before me has said as much.
However, I do believe that the meta is centralizing around her, the meta used to be centralized around cloud but he, at least, has hard solid counterpicks, not to mention the other characters have to be played nearly perfectly to get the results they do.
Tell me, how much room for error does a bayonetta player have compared to other characters? She has one of the best disadvantage states in the game, even her landing lag is something she can easily work around if the previous posts around here are any indication.
You can easily argue that other characters have similar if not identical strengths but...just how many characters is that? Do they lose hard to other MUs that Bayo is good at and are they high to top-tiers? The answer to that should be 'yes and yes' but when I saw the examples of who has an advantage over her in an MU my first thought was 'That's it? They'd need a secondary just to get through the other matches.'
If she isn't the best character in smash 4 with the lowest risk on her moves with the highest reward then please enlighten me because with all these arguments it's hard to tell fact from fiction here.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Honestly if the bayo topics continue cropping up every time on her not being broken or is, discussion of it will prolly be banned in this thread before Bayo herself does.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

More than likely, she's what is known as 'flame bait' people seem to be divided into 'those that hate her' and 'those that love her'. There is a third division which seems to be loudly drowned out by the shouting of the other two but yeah. Noone likes to see the same character over and over again dominating the rankings' list but others love her, a lot. It's kind of a pain whenever she's brought up.

 

[Krysco]

Seh's actually getting close to being not fine. Not broken, but very difficult to fight.

Idk about aba, since I saw he went m2 vs zack.....

The part of my post you quoted was me paraphrasing what I saw others saying, namely on Ally's tweet. I haven't fought the character enough to say anymore than 'she's annoying to fight'. Sdi'ing becomes painful to do after a few matches. I also don't watch many tournament matches to have a clear idea what the character can and can't do.

I can see the character potentially becoming an issue in the future though if results like this recent LTC continue and if no more patches come. I really don't wanna see this game turn into Brawl's late meta, just replace MK with Bayo. At that point, it'd be too late to ban her but that is a worst case scenario.

 

[Flamegeyser]

It's frightening that Bayonetta is not even fully developed. She has footstool combos that are more deadly than her regular ones.

Well please God tell us bayo's, because I have no idea what you're talking about. She has minimal moves that lock without a terrible missed tech, poor consequences if she fails, and often not enough mobility or setups to get the lock in the first place. That one Mistake did to Larry the other day? That was an anomaly, that's nightmarish to get on the ground, and neutral b is laggy enough to be punishable by death if it doesn't work. Bair locks at low%s but good luck finding a time to do it. The only other thing I can think are the fair footstool things like Zack has tried labbing, which I'll note are so hard that he doesn't even bother, or the footstool sh up b that works on only a couple chars. Seriously, what are you talking about?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Zero better stop making the same mistake. He keeps dying for it. He died the exact same way as evo.

Was that an unintentional pun?

 

[Nah]

If this community went the entirety of the previous game's lifespan without a real ban to a more obviously broken character than current Bayonetta in , with that game in general being more unbalanced than this one is right now, I find it unlikely that she will ever be banned in this game's lifetime.

Bayo being as strong as she is right now is fine to me personally, at least for now. The real atrocity imo is the fact that this game has had no less than 17 patches and a lot of the cast is still not what I'd call truly viable.
But I can't complain I suppose, given that said patches were the first time in the series that they actually bothered to try to fix the game and what we have now is significantly better than past entries or even the launch day version of the game (which was possibly no better than Melee/Brawl). Nevermind that Super Smash Bros is not completely intended to be, and so is not completely designed to be, a (1v1) competitive fighter.

How long has post-patch Bayo been out?!? How long?!?

If this question is not a rhetorical one: patch 1.16 came out in May 2016, so it's been a bit over a year.

cloud but he, at least, has hard solid counterpicks

Who exactly are Cloud's "hard solid counterpicks"? I'm not terribly familiar with what people consider his MU spread to be these days, so....

I know you're going to say Charizard, but my understanding is that Cloud is Zard's best top tier matchup rather than that it is a legit counterpick option to him.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Is it really Bayonetta that is meta or is it just this thread's and others public opinions that people take for fact or talk abou lt so much other players believe it to be true.

I've heard people from smashcords say things like "ugh 4br", "all they do is complain about bayo", "too much theorycrafting", "so and so does not go to tournies so their opinion is not valid", "this person has only fought a bad main of X character to believe that", etc.

What are you guy's thoughts on fear when it comes to Smash 4?

To me, fear comes from gossip, top player opinions, commentators, stream vods, and all the matchup and tier list charts that the community makes and share (regardless of player skill).

I see it as going to several social forums and hearing people complain about either a similar small bunch of characters or sometimes characters some players struggle with to no end which can make certain matchups sound hopeless (like Lucas throwing pk fire all the time if an opponent runs at them, it pushes them back, then they try to run again and get the same result; rinse and repeat). I hear some players say it is better or reccomended to go a secondary in a matchup some find hopeless.

I see it as watching top player videos and reading their comments on characters making some sound so strong while others, they can laugh at or call dumb.

I see it as visiting this thread every time there is a new post, and listen to long paragraphs describing frame data and moves from only one side of a matchup with little regard to the opponent they are talkng about.
Sometimes comments are added in a post like: "said character has X frame data, X range, X damage, X combos, X kill confirms, X neutral, and X punish; there's no way they can lose in this matchup and if you think otherwise you are dumb! *cue laughter and smiles from poster*" (not to mention that post gets usually 6 likes or more).

Taking all this into account, when I head to tournies and fight characters that are talked about so much, even though I try my best to ignore and disregard tier lists/matchup charts, (since I look at them or post them for the sole purpose to see people fuss and get very defensive over their opinions and begin to type in all caps) I freeze up.
I get nervous and start to panic and think to myself that my opponent and the players are thinking "oh, there is a Cloud in this match? Ohohoho this is going to an easy win for him" or "I'm playing Cloud, I got this" (Note: I play Lucas).
Whrn this happens I begin to play suuuper patient and passive. I sit in shield a lot and for a very long time out of fear which can hurt my chance of playing well in the match by a lot.

Any thoughts on this? I think we pump our characters up so much when we talk about them that we fail to listen to what others say and would rather go back to original point made and repeat it so much that others will say they believe to make us satisfied.

EDIT: Added a few more things around the post.

 

[PK Gaming]

were absolutely nightmarishly good and would make most of the current cast look like they suck.

Just a sec.

I agree with the rest of the post, but this line isn't true. Corrin's nerfs were vastly, vastly blown out of proportion. I made a thread covering the nerfs.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I get nervous and start to panic and think to myself that my opponent and the players are thinking "oh, there is a Cloud in this match? Ohohoho this is going to an easy win for him" or "I'm playing Cloud, I got this" (Note: I play Lucas).

Many notable Lucas players think Cloud is just a slight disadvantage for Lucas. It's not that bad. People have a tendency to exaggerate bad matchups though, yet they don't do the same thing for good MUs. Like, if their character loses 45-55, it might feel really bad, but a 55-45 advantage doesn't really feel like that much of an advantage (to many people, at least).

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I was not trying to start a Lucas conversation, I added in that part to try and give an example of the "fear" I was talking about. I think this is taking the discussion off track from where I wanted it to go.

This is gonna sound rude and harsh but if the notable Lucas players you are referring to are Mekos and Kodystri, or rather anyone else who says Cloud is our worst matchup like some people in the discord do then I dunno. I just don't agree with that at all besides the exaggeration part. You could also bring up Taiheita's matchup chart but I do not use it or any matchup chart for that matter, as information to help me in bracket matches.

I don't know if I should say this or not, but the Cloud match I brought up earlier, I won if that matters, 2-0 even. I must have given the Cloud player too much credit and expected a show out of him. I did fight him on battlefield game 1 and he did the stereotyped gameplay of up air, nair, and bair through platforms along with limit charge camp and using limit moves on shield and edgeguards.

Even though I won, I still felt fear in the match, which was the point I was trying to make.

*sigh* It's easy for me to get distracted and go on a tangent, I fell for the bait and could not think of something witty or rude sounding to get back on topic.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Diddy is held back by more major problems than lacking good burst punishes (and to be frank, the burst punishes he does have are still pretty good, even if t. hey aren't as good as Sheik or Fox).

His damage output compared to the rest of the cast is weak. A majority of the characters in the game have punishes that can deal 30%+ damage when optimized, but Diddy's best punishes usually cap around dealing 20-25% damage. Additionally, his ability to edgeguard is significantly weaker than many characters in the cast due to his low Airspeed, though that's less of a problem since his ledge coverage options are among the most oppressive in the game.

His disadvantage isn't terrible, but it is still very exploitable. Despite being very versatile, his recovery's startup time can be exploited by most characters and easily edgeguarded. Even though he has a combo breaker in Uair, its High landing lag and poor hitbox make it much weaker than other character's combo breakers. Additionally, though Diddy has some landing mixups, his options aren't enough to beat other characters juggling tools (things like Clouds Uair, Bayo's up B, etc).

His neutral has many perks that many other characters cannot enjoy. His movement is among the most fluid in the game, he has access to a dangerous item that can setup into several of his other moves + pressure shields, and his hitboxes on most of his attacks are solid. That being said, his neutral does have several key weaknesses, namely that most of his moves are unsafe on Shield. Additionally, Diddy can have trouble breaking through characters with bigger hitboxes, as several matches have shown.

Regarding the Bayo and Diddy MU. Yes Diddy has the better neutral, and is likely going to be winning in neutral more often. The issue is that Bayo's potential reward of the times she does win far surpasses Diddy's own reward to where Diddy's neutral superiority is almost rendered moot

This was made pretty clear in the Mistake vs ZeRo MU . You could see how many times Mistake repeatedly threw out out unsafe Heel Slides and other moves thus getting grabbed by ZeRo. However in most times ZeRo only did around 15-25% of his conversions when Mistake was at low percent tops?. While when Mistake got control he was able to do 50% + at lower percents and Just like with Salem vs Zero at EVO. Mistake was able take a punish from an ill-timed monkey flip and and lead t to a ladder combo to victory

Basically, Bayo can afford to make risks and and be somewhat reckless (if Bayo has the stock lead anyway) until she is as up-smash kill comfirm or u-tilt percents while Diddy always has to fear what Bayo can do

The risk vs reward factor in the MU goes in Bayo's favor by quite a bit

 

[Illusion.]

Clash of the Carolinas (84 entrants: South Carolina)

1st. YP | Fatality
2nd. PES | RFang
3rd. Donquavious
4th. PES | Peabnut
5th. DachiTea
5th. OES | Eldin
7th. Ferf
7th. Ak8

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Honestly if the bayo topics continue cropping up every time on her not being broken or is, discussion of it will prolly be banned in this thread before Bayo herself does.

Hey guys, I heard Pikachu has a nifty kill combo out of up throw!1!
Did ya know Marth and Lucina have kill confirms, some different ones from each other? Crazy, right?
How 'bout dem Miis tho?

 

[R3D3MON]

If this community went the entirety of the previous game's lifespan without a real ban to a more obviously broken character than current Bayonetta in , with that game in general being more unbalanced than this one is right now, I find it unlikely that she will ever be banned in this game's lifetime.

Bayo being as strong as she is right now is fine to me personally, at least for now. The real atrocity imo is the fact that this game has had no less than 17 patches and a lot of the cast is still not what I'd call truly viable.
But I can't complain I suppose, given that said patches were the first time in the series that they actually bothered to try to fix the game and what we have now is significantly better than past entries or even the launch day version of the game (which was possibly no better than Melee/Brawl). Nevermind that Super Smash Bros is not completely intended to be, and so is not completely designed to be, a (1v1) competitive fighter.

balance ≠ competitiveness

 

[Nathan Richardson]

balance ≠ competitiveness

? It doesn't? I thought it did by giving everyone with the same skill levels an equal chance of winning. If balance does not equal competitiveness what does?

edit: I'm not saying I know anything about competitive play. I'm barely above a casual player! I use mains because they're my favorites not because of their placement on the tier lists (though I did disturbingly find out that I love winning and accomplishment over the thrill of the game. Just learning that about myself makes me CRINGE!) However from what little I know about competitive play I know that certain players want to be able to beat other players with their own skill, not because a character is carrying them through the competition (no matter what other competitive players might say). A game is more competitive when it's balanced, that way instead of blaming the game or the characters for a loss the fault lies in the player's own lack of skill.

 

[TDK]

Smash con pools are out!

...but since it's like EVO, round 1 pools have nearly nothing of note in them so I'm going to cover round 2 pools. Again, this is all hypothetical, since seeding changes and upsets could occur. Also these round 2 pools are going to be insane

Spoiler

Pool I201: Salem vs Fatality is the slated winners finals match. Fatality took losses to Mistake and 9B at EVO, and the Bayo-Falcon matchup doesn't look too easy, but he's also mentioned preparing for Salem, so we'll have to see what he can bring to the table. Salem fights Ned in semifinals of this pool, and while the Cloud matchup has been said to be one of Bayo's harder ones, Salem is good at it to the point where I think he'll beat Ned. Fatality, on the other hand, fights Kameme , who he's beaten before, but I think if Kameme's Sheik is practiced enough he can definitely upset Fatality. Seeding has a Kameme vs Ned losers finals, which I think will go to Kameme, but it's going to be a close one.

Other notable people in this pool: DarkShad , Seagull Joe , Dath , Sol , Lazyboredom , RFang

Pool I205: Yet another ESAM vs Larry Lurr showdown in here. I don't recall exactly, but these two trade sets a lot, and while I'd personally favour ESAM this could easily go either way, should they both make it there. If LTC5 is any indication, Larry does have a Meta Knight that we might see if he's confident enough. Larry faces Rich Brown in semis, in a matchup he seems very proficient in. ESAM, on the other hand, faces Mistake , a matchup he says he's proficient in, but to my knowledge the records favour the Bayonetta players, and Mistake is certainly one of the best. The seeding says Mistake will make it into top 24 over Rich Brown in losers, which I could definitely see, especially if Mistake has played Deathorse recently.

Other notable people in this pool: DSS , The Great Gonzales , Shoyo James


Pool I209: Ally vs VoiD is the projected Winners Finals here. I'd favour Ally here, since he seems to do well vs Sheiks, but Sheik-Mario doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as it once did. Either way, this is going to be close. VoiD fights JK and Ally fights 6WX in two seemingly touch-and-go matchups for Sheik and Mario, but I'd still favour VoiD and Ally just based on skill. JK and 6WX will probably fight each other in losers, and while 6WX is the higher seed, he doesn't seem to think the Bayo matchup is very good, so I'd say there's a decent chance of JK upsetting his way into top 24.

Other notable people in this pool: Cosmos , Aarvark , Pink Fresh

Pool I213: Nairo vs Captain Zack lies in store here. I don't have much to say about the winners finals match, since Nairo mopped the floor with Zack in their most recent encounter and has a pretty positive record on him, if my memory serves me correctly. I'd say the bigger chance for an upset, albiet still a fairly small one, lies in his semis match with Vinnie , since Vinnie is capable and the Sheik matchup has been stated to be very bad for ZSS, but Nairo is the better player and has beaten VoiD plenty of times, although Mr. R beat him twice in their last encounter(?). Zack fights NAKAT , who did beat him at EVO, and Ness seems to be one of Zack's personal struggles. There's a pretty high chance of Nairo vs NAKAT for winners finals, but I don't know how that will go.

Other notable people in this pool: ZD , Sinji , IcyMist , Peabnut

Pool J201: Komorikiri vs MKLeo . Despite MKLeo seemingly struggling more this season, I'm not seeing him losing a Cloud ditto to Komo, since his record vs Komo specifically is perfect, and if he can beat KEN with Meta Knight he can beat Komo's Sonic with Meta Knight should the situation call for it. Komo faces Falln in semis, and while Dabuz has beaten Komo twice recently, I don't think Falln is going to beat Komo just due to the difference in player skill. Locus could beat Leo in semis, but with Leo 3-0ing Locus at their last encounter the record is in Leo's favour. Should they both get to losers finals, Falln will probably beat Locus. Locus did very nearly beat Dabuz and I think he beat Falln at ARMS saga, the matchup is pretty bad for Ryu and Falln has probably practiced it since then.

Other notable people in this pool: SuperGirlKels , Ryo , Frozen

Pool J205: Dabuz vs Abadango . I don't doubt for a second that we'll see the Meta Knight out of Aba, but I don't think that's enough to do it. While Aba's MK has its great moments, such as taking ZeRo to game 5 more than once, Dabuz demolished Tyrant in their last encounter and the Rosa-MK MU is nowhere near as bad as people say. Aba fights WaDi in semis, which could be interesting, since Aba seems to dislike the ditto and WaDi has a lot of experience with Pink Fresh. Dabuz vs Mr. E could also be interesting, but I can't see Mr. E pulling it off.

Other notable people in this pool: Ryuga , Mute Ace , Saj

Pool J209: This one's really interesting. ZeRo fights Samsora again, and Samsora did beat ZeRo at dreamhack, but the set was very close and ended with an SD on ZeRo's part, so it'll be interesting to see how this goes. this pool is extremely volatile, with a whole host of players capable of taking down either of these two. ZeRo fights Tyroy in semis, and while Bayos have been advancing a lot vs ZeRo recently, the player skill difference largely favours ZeRo, as Tyroy isn't on the level of Mistake or Salem (I'd say Xaltis has a better shot at beating him). Samsora fights MVD and it's fairly likely that MVD will beat him, leading to a Diddy Ditto in finals.

Other notable people in this pool: Xaltis , 8BitMan , Nicko , Xzax

Pool J213: Mr. R vs Tweek in this last pool. while it's seeded for Tweek to beat Mr. R, I think it's more likely for this to go the other way. Sheik is a hard matchup for Cloud and I'm pretty sure Mr. R beat him in their last few encounters. Mr. R fights Zinoto in semis, and I think Zinoto might be able to upset him but I'd favour Mr. R. I'd also heavily favour Tweek to beat Static Manny in the other side of semis.

Other notable people in this pool: Konga (Fights Manny first, probably the best chance for an upset in this pool), Dyr , JJROCKETS , Luhtie

 

[MERPIS]

Calling it now, Salem does some stupid crap and wins the entire tournament.
and there is a crap ton of bayonettas in the top 16/8, because bayonetta.

 

[Heracr055]

? It doesn't? I thought it did by giving everyone with the same skill levels an equal chance of winning. If balance does not equal competitiveness what does?

edit: I'm not saying I know anything about competitive play. I'm barely above a casual player! I use mains because they're my favorites not because of their placement on the tier lists (though I did disturbingly find out that I love winning and accomplishment over the thrill of the game. Just learning that about myself makes me CRINGE!) However from what little I know about competitive play I know that certain players want to be able to beat other players with their own skill, not because a character is carrying them through the competition (no matter what other competitive players might say). A game is more competitive when it's balanced, that way instead of blaming the game or the characters for a loss the fault lies in the player's own lack of skill.

Everyone with the same skill levels has a chance to win. However, as a controversial poster here in Smashboards once said, "character selection is a skill." If someone isn't playing a top tier then they're not interested in winning. (Or they're finding a strategy to counter the top tiers, but they'll likely fail).

 

[The-Technique]

Annnnd all the Bayos are eliminated, and Zero is probably going to beat Tweek for free like always. One thing I noted on Zero's sets is that even though he was winning, he was also showing Bayonetta waaaay too much respect at times, air dodging poorly and frame trapping himself in the process. It goes to show that even top players have more to learn regarding the matchup.

Woops, Tweek won the set. Congrats to him on overcoming his demon.

 

[MERPIS]

Annnnd all the Bayos are eliminated

Huh, a surprising turn of events.

 

[The-Technique]

Huh, a surprising turn of events.

It's not that surprising when, you know, top players strive hard to adapt and improve, rather than *just* complaining about the character on forums.

also lol @ Ally ****posting in twitch chat the entire time

 

[TDK]

Low Tier City 5 (384 Entrants) (Texas)

1st: Tweek
2nd: ZeRo
3rd: Mistake
4th: ESAM
5th: Lima
5th: Captain Zack
7th: Abadango
7th: Larry Lurr
9th: DeluxeMenu
9th: Illusion
9th: Karna
9th: Light the Lantern
13th: Kurry
13th: Chuck Nasty
13th: ARMY
13th: Twi

 

[MERPIS]

Low Tier City 5 (384 Entrants) (Texas)

1st: Tweek
2nd: ZeRo
3rd: Mistake
4th: ESAM
5th: Lima
5th: Captain Zack
7th: Abadango
7th: Larry Lurr
9th: DeluxeMenu
9th: Illusion
9th: Karna
9th: Light the Lantern
13th: Kurry
13th: Chuck Nasty
13th: ARMY
13th: Twi

abadango has converted to the dark side I see. What a shame. He never deserved to play mewtwo anyways.

 

[R3D3MON]

abadango has converted to the dark side I see. What a shame. He never deserved to play mewtwo anyways.

even though he is the only mewtwo who has won a major?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

abadango has converted to the dark side I see. What a shame. He never deserved to play mewtwo anyways.

What's your problem lmao

 

[MERPIS]

even though he is the only mewtwo who has won a major?

ya, because he is the only mewtwo who opts now for some one that requires much less skill, and easier to get much better results with.

 

[R3D3MON]

ya, because he is the only mewtwo who opts now for some one that requires much less skill, and easier to get much better results with.

I think you should stop playing smash bro.

 

[Illusion.]

LightTheLantern also used

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I understand that Bayo can be downplayed in this thread, but you two are acting like Bayo burned your house down.

Can you be more mature about this, please?

 

[MERPIS]

I think you should stop playing smash bro.

I think you should accept opinions

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Can we talk about ? With DeluxeMenu's 9th place at LTC5 and Nairo's recent success with him, does anybody think he should be higher than Midtier? Or is his position good. Same can be said for .

 

[MERPIS]

Can we talk about ? With DeluxeMenu's 9th place at LTC5 and Nairo's recent success with him, does anybody think he should be higher than Midtier? Or is his position good. Same can be said for .

ZeRo's opinion on these two are waaaay too generous.

 

[Lord Dio]

Smash con pools are out!

...but since it's like EVO, round 1 pools have nearly nothing of note in them so I'm going to cover round 2 pools. Again, this is all hypothetical, since seeding changes and upsets could occur. Also these round 2 pools are going to be insane

Spoiler

Pool I201: Salem vs Fatality is the slated winners finals match. Fatality took losses to Mistake and 9B at EVO, and the Bayo-Falcon matchup doesn't look too easy, but he's also mentioned preparing for Salem, so we'll have to see what he can bring to the table. Salem fights Ned in semifinals of this pool, and while the Cloud matchup has been said to be one of Bayo's harder ones, Salem is good at it to the point where I think he'll beat Ned. Fatality, on the other hand, fights Kameme , who he's beaten before, but I think if Kameme's Sheik is practiced enough he can definitely upset Fatality. Seeding has a Kameme vs Ned losers finals, which I think will go to Kameme, but it's going to be a close one.

Other notable people in this pool: DarkShad , Seagull Joe , Dath , Sol , Lazyboredom , RFang

Pool I205: Yet another ESAM vs Larry Lurr showdown in here. I don't recall exactly, but these two trade sets a lot, and while I'd personally favour ESAM this could easily go either way, should they both make it there. If LTC5 is any indication, Larry does have a Meta Knight that we might see if he's confident enough. Larry faces Rich Brown in semis, in a matchup he seems very proficient in. ESAM, on the other hand, faces Mistake , a matchup he says he's proficient in, but to my knowledge the records favour the Bayonetta players, and Mistake is certainly one of the best. The seeding says Mistake will make it into top 24 over Rich Brown in losers, which I could definitely see, especially if Mistake has played Deathorse recently.

Other notable people in this pool: DSS , The Great Gonzales , Shoyo James


Pool I209: Ally vs VoiD is the projected Winners Finals here. I'd favour Ally here, since he seems to do well vs Sheiks, but Sheik-Mario doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as it once did. Either way, this is going to be close. VoiD fights JK and Ally fights 6WX in two seemingly touch-and-go matchups for Sheik and Mario, but I'd still favour VoiD and Ally just based on skill. JK and 6WX will probably fight each other in losers, and while 6WX is the higher seed, he doesn't seem to think the Bayo matchup is very good, so I'd say there's a decent chance of JK upsetting his way into top 24.

Other notable people in this pool: Cosmos , Aarvark , Pink Fresh

Pool I213: Nairo vs Captain Zack lies in store here. I don't have much to say about the winners finals match, since Nairo mopped the floor with Zack in their most recent encounter and has a pretty positive record on him, if my memory serves me correctly. I'd say the bigger chance for an upset, albiet still a fairly small one, lies in his semis match with Vinnie , since Vinnie is capable and the Sheik matchup has been stated to be very bad for ZSS, but Nairo is the better player and has beaten VoiD plenty of times, although Mr. R beat him twice in their last encounter(?). Zack fights NAKAT , who did beat him at EVO, and Ness seems to be one of Zack's personal struggles. There's a pretty high chance of Nairo vs NAKAT for winners finals, but I don't know how that will go.

Other notable people in this pool: ZD , Sinji , IcyMist , Peabnut

Pool J201: Komorikiri vs MKLeo . Despite MKLeo seemingly struggling more this season, I'm not seeing him losing a Cloud ditto to Komo, since his record vs Komo specifically is perfect, and if he can beat KEN with Meta Knight he can beat Komo's Sonic with Meta Knight should the situation call for it. Komo faces Falln in semis, and while Dabuz has beaten Komo twice recently, I don't think Falln is going to beat Komo just due to the difference in player skill. Locus could beat Leo in semis, but with Leo 3-0ing Locus at their last encounter the record is in Leo's favour. Should they both get to losers finals, Falln will probably beat Locus. Locus did very nearly beat Dabuz and I think he beat Falln at ARMS saga, the matchup is pretty bad for Ryu and Falln has probably practiced it since then.

Other notable people in this pool: SuperGirlKels , Ryo , Frozen

Pool J205: Dabuz vs Abadango . I don't doubt for a second that we'll see the Meta Knight out of Aba, but I don't think that's enough to do it. While Aba's MK has its great moments, such as taking ZeRo to game 5 more than once, Dabuz demolished Tyrant in their last encounter and the Rosa-MK MU is nowhere near as bad as people say. Aba fights WaDi in semis, which could be interesting, since Aba seems to dislike the ditto and WaDi has a lot of experience with Pink Fresh. Dabuz vs Mr. E could also be interesting, but I can't see Mr. E pulling it off.

Other notable people in this pool: Ryuga , Mute Ace , Saj

Pool J209: This one's really interesting. ZeRo fights Samsora again, and Samsora did beat ZeRo at dreamhack, but the set was very close and ended with an SD on ZeRo's part, so it'll be interesting to see how this goes. this pool is extremely volatile, with a whole host of players capable of taking down either of these two. ZeRo fights Tyroy in semis, and while Bayos have been advancing a lot vs ZeRo recently, the player skill difference largely favours ZeRo, as Tyroy isn't on the level of Mistake or Salem (I'd say Xaltis has a better shot at beating him). Samsora fights MVD and it's fairly likely that MVD will beat him, leading to a Diddy Ditto in finals.

Other notable people in this pool: Xaltis , 8BitMan , Nicko , Xzax

Pool J213: Mr. R vs Tweek in this last pool. while it's seeded for Tweek to beat Mr. R, I think it's more likely for this to go the other way. Sheik is a hard matchup for Cloud and I'm pretty sure Mr. R beat him in their last few encounters. Mr. R fights Zinoto in semis, and I think Zinoto might be able to upset him but I'd favour Mr. R. I'd also heavily favour Tweek to beat Static Manny in the other side of semis.

Other notable people in this pool: Konga (Fights Manny first, probably the best chance for an upset in this pool), Dyr , JJROCKETS , Luhtie

*reads through pools*
*prays for komo fatality and larry*
This doesn't look to good for them.......

 

[origamiscienceguy]

I don't want zero's opinion, I want your opinion. Can you go into more detail? Why is his opinion to generous.

If I am not mistaken, Bowser can cancel any landing lag with a special move. I would think that this would greatly increase his landing game, but it is always listed as one of his weaknesses.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Can we talk about ? With DeluxeMenu's 9th place at LTC5 and Nairo's recent success with him, does anybody think he should be higher than Midtier? Or is his position good. Same can be said for .

They have been getting results. I can see them moving up.

 

[Rizen]

Low Tier City 5 (384 Entrants) (Texas)

1st: Tweek
2nd: ZeRo
3rd: Mistake
4th: ESAM
5th: Lima
5th: Captain Zack
7th: Abadango
7th: Larry Lurr
9th: DeluxeMenu
9th: Illusion
9th: Karna
9th: Light the Lantern
13th: Kurry
13th: Chuck Nasty
13th: ARMY
13th: Twi

"Low tier city" lol. But kudos to Chuck Nasty for making top 16 with charizard.

Can we talk about ? With DeluxeMenu's 9th place at LTC5 and Nairo's recent success with him, does anybody think he should be higher than Midtier? Or is his position good. Same can be said for .

imo there should be a borderline tier for characters like DK, Bowser, Peach, Greninja, Luigi, Olimar and maybe TL and Lucario.


Whatever happened to ZeRo's plan of playing Bayo?

 

[MERPIS]

I don't want zero's opinion, I want your opinion. Can you go into more detail? Why is his opinion to generous.

If I am not mistaken, Bowser can cancel any landing lag with a special move. I would think that this would greatly increase his landing game, but it is always listed as one of his weaknesses.

okay my guy
Bowser and DK are, in my opinion, the gatekeepers for high tier
In a lot of ways they remind me of brawl dedede. They have amazing strengths, and the mechanics of smash push them to even better lengths. But their weaknesses are massive, they can't get out of juggles for crap, they get combo'd insanely hard, they can't really catch campers too well and their disadvantage states are poor.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Charizard is another one that I honestly think is higher than Low Tier. I think I would put him around the Robs. Not to doubt Chuck Nasty's skill, it is still incredible.

 

[MERPIS]

Charizard is another one that I honestly think is higher than Low Tier. I think I would put him around the Robs. Not to doubt Chuck Nasty's skill, it is still incredible.

Zard has a few traits better than the 2 heavies better than him, he isn't juggled as hard due to his multiple jumps and rock smash, his mobility is so much better, he can juggle people rather well, he also bad a little bit of a smaller hurtbox, meaning he isn't combo'd as hard, his frame data is so much better as well. I believe zard could go as high as top 20, higher than bows and dong even.