Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[PK Bash]

Even with MK Leo, honestly, considering Cloud is out way more. You know, I don't like the idea that we default to saying that the characters that top players use *must* be top tier. I feel like we try and categorize characters in the same way we categorize their players. A top level player can already do damage with mid-tiers. A high tier - especially backed by another character for bad MUs - can most certainly win a supermajor.

Can we all just take a second to appreciate this post. I would hate for this to be forgotten.
--
I suppose I need to say something else.
Regarding Mewtwo vs Marth, some people here are sleeping on the power of Mewtwo's neutral imo. Despite that his extremely good neutral is the crux of his viability and without it he would be mid tier. Everyone knows that SBall, dtilt, and fair are some of the best neutral options of any character, and so are things like Confusion (one of the most underappreciated moves in the game - a large command grab that's very viable to use in neutral, can be used out of a dash and forces you to use either use your double jump against Mewtwo or face a tech situation, again against Mewtwo, that is also a reflector and has movement applications - the move is amazing.) And of course his movement is excellent too.
So we have some of the strongest neutral tools in the game on a character with incredible mobility and multiple win conditions which can be set up off of a single hit. And people aren't even using his down smash in neutral yet. (why not? It's so good)
There's nothing inherently linear about it imo. I know neutral is as linear or not as the player makes it but there are some characters with neutrals that can only be linear and Mewtwo certainly isn't one.
The main flaw of Mewtwo's neutral is his poor options to hit behind him (which is a flaw he shares with Marth but is def more pronounced with Mewtwo) but as people start applying perfect pivots more often, and combined with the current stagelist, this is certainly not a crippling flaw.

His advantage and disadvantage is better than Marth's too imo.

In case my opinion wasn't obvious, Mewtwo is far and away the better character. Marth is very good too obviously but I am of the opinion Mewtwo is on another level.
Marth is better in the doubles metagame though.

Does anyone know where I can find footage of Albion 2?

I keep hearing about Gluttony, but I didn't think much of him because I've never seen anything of him. For him to win a 300+ man tourney just a few days ago obviously he is still very relevant, and since I was just talking about Wario, I think I need to see what he's doing with the character.

As far as I know nothing is uploaded yet but they will probably be uploaded to BYOController or DAT team. I missed it live too unfortunately but I'll be catching it up asap so I'll post on your profile or something when I know.

 

[The-Technique]

Does anyone know where I can find footage of Albion 2?

I keep hearing about Gluttony, but I didn't think much of him because I've never seen anything of him. For him to win a 300+ man tourney just a few days ago obviously he is still very relevant, and since I was just talking about Wario, I think I need to see what he's doing with the character.

No footage of albion 2 yet, but here's a recent set between Gluttony and Fatality in grand finals, probably some of the best displays of Warios combos, kill setups, and offstage game.

 

[Das Koopa]

I'm writing a very, very long and detailed article on Bayonetta's metagame history. I won't disclose many details at the moment (it'll probably be over 10k words), but the subject goes into great detail on every prominent Bayonetta main. The ones I'm focused on;

Salem (Florida, formerly Tristate)
Captain Zack (Louisiana/South/Southeast)
9B (Kansai/Japan)
ikep (Chubu/Japan)
Hiro (Kyushu/Japan)
Mistake (Ontario/Canada)
saj. (Florida)
Pink Fresh (MD/VA)
Wonf (Mexico)
Chag (Mexico)
Tyroy (Chicago/Midwest)
Mystearica (Midwest)
RiotLettuce (Florida)
Child (Florida)
JK (Vegas/Southwest)
Lima (Texas/South)
AeroLink (Texas/South)
Aphro (SoCal)

#1: Have I missed any in NA/Japan?
#2: Who are the current prominent EU Bayonetta mains? Chances are, I'm not going to discuss the EU-side of things at all, but I'd like to still know so I can have a brief section on it.

This is a big deal so even listing ones that are only mildly relevant would be helpful so I can examine things.

 

[NotLiquid]

I'm writing a very, very long and detailed article on Bayonetta's metagame history. I won't disclose many details at the moment (it'll probably be over 10k words), but the subject goes into great detail on every prominent Bayonetta main. The ones I'm focused on;

Salem (Florida, formerly Tristate)
Captain Zack (Louisiana/South/Southeast)
9B (Kansai/Japan)
ikep (Chubu/Japan)
Hiro (Kyushu/Japan)
Mistake (Ontario/Canada)
saj. (Florida)
Pink Fresh (MD/VA)
Wonf (Mexico)
Chag (Mexico)
Tyroy (Chicago/Midwest)
Mystearica (Midwest)
RiotLettuce (Florida)
Child (Florida)
JK (Vegas/Southwest)
Lima (Texas/South)
AeroLink (Texas/South)
Aphro (SoCal)

#1: Have I missed any in NA/Japan?
#2: Who are the current prominent EU Bayonetta mains? Chances are, I'm not going to discuss the EU-side of things at all, but I'd like to still know so I can have a brief section on it.

This is a big deal so even listing ones that are only mildly relevant would be helpful so I can examine things.

Griffith comes to mind as EU's de facto Bayonetta. There's also Rydle who's pre-patch dominance in Spain was likely what prompted them to consider a ban but he retired at the end of 2016.

 

[Frihetsanka]

#2: Who are the current prominent EU Bayonetta mains? Chances are, I'm not going to discuss the EU-side of things at all, but I'd like to still know so I can have a brief section on it.

cyve is one (co-mains Bayonetta and Diddy Kong, according to SmashWiki). He's ranked #1 in Germany, and got 2nd place in B.E.A.S.T 7 (which Mr. R won, of course).

 

[Skeeter Mania]

they're one of the few characters in the game that can reliably edgeguard him. Countering a side-b is lethal and otherwise their normal edgeguarding kit is really good in the matchup.

For one, how do they edgeguard him well?

Secondly, for what reason would you want to use Pac's side b besides recovery?

 

[Kofu]

For one, how do they edgeguard him well?

Secondly, for what reason would you want to use Pac's side b besides recovery?

Countering a side b was part of edgeguarding, especially if Pac is sent far offstage. Marth and Lucina are just really good edgeguarders in general, especially if their opponent's options lack speed and/or good hitboxes.

To answer the second question, kill setups and hard reads (also to kill).

 

[Jaguar360]

I'm writing a very, very long and detailed article on Bayonetta's metagame history. I won't disclose many details at the moment (it'll probably be over 10k words), but the subject goes into great detail on every prominent Bayonetta main. The ones I'm focused on;

Salem (Florida, formerly Tristate)
Captain Zack (Louisiana/South/Southeast)
9B (Kansai/Japan)
ikep (Chubu/Japan)
Hiro (Kyushu/Japan)
Mistake (Ontario/Canada)
saj. (Florida)
Pink Fresh (MD/VA)
Wonf (Mexico)
Chag (Mexico)
Tyroy (Chicago/Midwest)
Mystearica (Midwest)
RiotLettuce (Florida)
Child (Florida)
JK (Vegas/Southwest)
Lima (Texas/South)
AeroLink (Texas/South)
Aphro (SoCal)

#1: Have I missed any in NA/Japan?
#2: Who are the current prominent EU Bayonetta mains? Chances are, I'm not going to discuss the EU-side of things at all, but I'd like to still know so I can have a brief section on it.

This is a big deal so even listing ones that are only mildly relevant would be helpful so I can examine things.

Wraith (8th New Jersey)
BluB (8th in Germany)
Badr (4th in the Netherlands)
Hazmatt (14th in New England)
Black Yoshi (10th in MD/VA)
Calculus (6th in Utah)

Those are the only ones I think you're missing.

 

[Illusion.]

GrimTurtle? Doesn't enter much, but he's beaten Nicko, Megafox, TLTC, Papa Wall, and Twi.

 

[Monete]

Griffith comes to mind as EU's de facto Bayonetta. There's also Rydle who's pre-patch dominance in Spain was likely what prompted them to consider a ban but he retired at the end of 2016.

Rydle has played some tournaments this year and has won everyone if im not mistaken.

He isnt very active because he is a Lol or Dota pro but isnt retires.


He is going to the Spanish national this weekend

https://smash.gg/tournament/adapt-kingdom-1/attendees?per_page=50&filter={"eventIds"%3A34267%7D&page=1

 

[verbatim]

Secondly, for what reason would you want to use Pac's side b besides recovery?

The main one is to kill after a bell stun. The other big one is that if you block a projectile with it then you can eat the pellet and heal yourself.

 

[ismaaa]

I have a question what do you think about 's place in the meta right now

 

[TDK]

I have a question what do you think about 's place in the meta right now

Ven, Onpu, and Fairess are all phenomenal players but I can't see Zelda doing anything relevant anytime soon, and Ven's 65th at Civil War is probably the best the character will do.

Oh, and Samsora made a Peach MU chart.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Rizen]

I have a question what do you think about 's place in the meta right now

You can't sleep on any ssb4 character. I think a really good Zelda could surprise people and Ven has shown that with results. With that said, she's bottom tier and won't impact the meta. It's important to know the MU is the closest Zelda gets to relevancy.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I don't care what level you are at Peach loses three MUs and only two are slight disadvantage? Can we not do this

 

[NotLiquid]

That MU spread isn't really that hard to believe. Peach has proven to run even with a large majority of the cast at this rate and has several MUs in top tier that are managable - key word being manageable. It's notable that Samsora didn't put any Top 10 character as an advantage in her favor. It's a reasonable spread for a Top 20-15 character and exemplifies why players will argue she's one of the harder characters to be good at.

 

[PK Gaming]

Ven, Onpu, and Fairess are all phenomenal players but I can't see Zelda doing anything relevant anytime soon, and Ven's 65th at Civil War is probably the best the character will do.

Oh, and Samsora made a Peach MU chart.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This reads more like a Samsora MU chart than a Peach one.

Interesting, but probably not accurate for your typical Peach main.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yeah it's not accurate for a peach main cause it's, as he said, Top level Peach. So Kie umeki samsora etc. levels of Peach.

 

[Thinkaman]

Smash 4 Peach does seem to have a record of little miss even matchup; float is just one of the most adaptable tools in the game, period. (Maybe the single most adaptable?) So I can actually buy it.

Gluttony's Wario looked better than ever in that set, but yet it was still a hard-fought set that arguably only won due to various missed techs on Fatality's part. Additionally, wouldn't Falcon be one of Wario's better matchups? Good luck getting those amazing gimps on Diddy or ZSS, much less Bayo...

What's the consensus on a modern Bayo matchup chart?

Broader bonus question: What does a full Bayo/Cloud/Diddy/Sheik/Sonic matchup chart look like in July 2017?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Its kinda hard to make a definitve MU Chart for Bayo because her records vs many top and high tiers have been fluxiauating over the past year.


Certian MU's where she lost in the past.. .. possibly as well . Her Top Mains have been doing reasonablly well going back and forth in the MU's .. Some or all of these can argued to be possibly even for Bayonetta if she plays the MU right


On the other hand other MU's where Bayo thought to have a big advantage have had the reverse outcomes over time . FoxIts likey now only slightly winning for Bayo and Cloud now looks even or possibly slightly in Clouds advantage

Its like not worth much but here are my estimates on a few relevant MU's for Bayo

Slight advantage.

Even /

Even to slight disavantage



After UNLOCKED I say the Pika MU looks near dead-even.

Someone who is such an expert on SDI , The top Pika main and claims Pika wins the MU would have a more dominating record vs Bayo mains

 

[Lord Dio]

Ven's 65th at Civil War is probably the best the character will do.

Didn't Onpu or someone do well with her at the recent Umebura?

 

[Illusion.]

Didn't Onpu or someone do well with her at the recent Umebura?

Onpu got 17th, yes.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

Onpu got 17th, yes.

The thing about Onpu's 17th is that he got there with only two notable wins (Fuwa and Lea), both players who are not quite top tier Japanese threats. I don't remember who Ven got through at Civil War, but with how much national and international talent was at the tournament it was probably just as if not more notable.

 

[FeelMeUp]

If you exclude ZeRo, Sheik was #1 in wins for +100 entrant tournaments from January 1st-June 30th.

As for winning characters:
Diddy Kong 18 (ZeRo was 12 of these)
Sheik 12
Bayonetta 11 (8 diff bayos)
Mario 10
Cloud/Rosa/Sonic/ZSS 8

— Justin (juddy96) (@juddy_96) July 2, 2017

 

[Lord Dio]

so only 17 were characters not listed.....I think I did that right. I assumed it meant 8 for each character listed and not 8 for the whole group.....

 

[FeelMeUp]

Been more busy than usual lately so I decided to make this MU spread to keep my head in things.
I tend to go by maps and tried to keep it as realistic as possible.
Here are some notable examples:
wins on BF, goes even on DL, loses on FD, loses on SV, goes roughly even(maybe slight his favour) on T&C, and goes even or loses on Lylat. However, none of the map counterpicks are very significantly going to impact gameplay. Conclusion? Sheik has a slight advantage or even matchup.
wins on BF, wins on DL, loses pretty roughly on FD, loses on SV, loses on T&C, and goes even on Lylat. Therefore, Sheik has a definite slight advantage.
wins on BF, wins on DL, loses on FD, even on SV, wins on Lylat, wins on T&C. Therefore, Sheik's at a slight disadvantage.

Spoiler: blablabla

Back to Starforce I go.

 

[Rizen]

Weighing in, T and Scizor both think beats +1. Considering Link's angled boomerang, low landing lag, Fair, Zair and lasting power I find this believable. Cat thinks it's even.
beats Link -1.5 according to Cat, -.5 by Scizor and it's even by T. IMO it's -1.
Source.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

The thing about Onpu's 17th is that he got there with only two notable wins (Fuwa and Lea)

Honestly how long are people going to sleep on obscure names?

 

[NairWizard]

--
I suppose I need to say something else.
Regarding Mewtwo vs Marth, some people here are sleeping on the power of Mewtwo's neutral imo. Despite that his extremely good neutral is the crux of his viability and without it he would be mid tier. Everyone knows that SBall, dtilt, and fair are some of the best neutral options of any character, and so are things like Confusion (one of the most underappreciated moves in the game - a large command grab that's very viable to use in neutral, can be used out of a dash and forces you to use either use your double jump against Mewtwo or face a tech situation, again against Mewtwo, that is also a reflector and has movement applications - the move is amazing.) And of course his movement is excellent too.
So we have some of the strongest neutral tools in the game on a character with incredible mobility and multiple win conditions which can be set up off of a single hit. And people aren't even using his down smash in neutral yet. (why not? It's so good)
There's nothing inherently linear about it imo. I know neutral is as linear or not as the player makes it but there are some characters with neutrals that can only be linear and Mewtwo certainly isn't one.

Mewtwo, better than Marth in neutral? I don't think so, I'd give the edge (literally) to Marth on this one. The main reason is that Marth has way better forward-facing arcing hitboxes: f-air, f-tilt, Dancing Blade, and even jab or n-air. Just one of these moves is better than Mewtwo's entire kit at dealing with short hopping opponents or stuffing other grounded movement options, but Marth has like five. Mewtwo's d-tilt is a great move, similar to Marth's own d-tilt, but it doesn't hit an aerial opponent, and f-air has too small of a hitbox to be used in a wide variety of situations in neutral. Think about playing against Lucas or Ness as they short hop all over the place. Marth has a much easier time stuffing their empty short hops into f-air (+z-air for Lucas); he can just pivot f-tilt or reaction f-air when he sees them go into the air. Mewtwo's gotta play around with shield a lot more in the same situation because his f-air has too small of a hitbox to be used against most short hop spacings and d-tilt only hits grounded opponents. This leaves him prone to getting dashgrabbed sometimes or tomahawked.

The effect of this is that Marth is much better at reactive set play than Mewtwo is, and given their swordsman archetype this matters a lot. Mewtwo's mixup game is probably a little better because of his SHAD game, Shadow Ball, and that crazy dash attack. But Marth doesn't do too shabby here either, because he has by far the better tomahawk game; his grab has both more range and better frame data than Mewtwo's, and his jumps are far less awkward. Marth's advantage in reactive play is much larger than Mewtwo's advantage in mixups, though, so Marth wins neutral.

The main flaw of Mewtwo's neutral is his poor options to hit behind him (which is a flaw he shares with Marth but is def more pronounced with Mewtwo) but as people start applying perfect pivots more often, and combined with the current stagelist, this is certainly not a crippling flaw.

Marth can just Dancing Blade or even Dolphin Slash a crossup, though, Mewtwo's fastest option is like frame 7.

And people aren't even using his down smash in neutral yet. (why not? It's so good)

Because it does nothing to address Mewtwo's issues with short hops in neutral. It's nice to have a move that's pretty safe on shield/whiff at a different spacing from d-tilt, but at the same time, perfect pivot d-tilt is just as good and hard to punish, so the move is somewhat redundant.

In case my opinion wasn't obvious, Mewtwo is far and away the better character. Marth is very good too obviously but I am of the opinion Mewtwo is on another level.

I think Mewtwo has a clearly better disadvantage state but a comparable advantage state (Marth's ledgetrapping is better, and Shieldbreaker is extremely deadly). In neutral, Marth is clearly better.

Thus to me it seems like Marth is the better character, though of course in the end it comes down to matchups rather than evaluations of the characters in a vacuum.

 

[TDK]

EVO Beta pools are out! Nothing in these is final, and due to how it's formatted, Round 1 pools is going to be really pointless to talk about here, so I'm going to to over hypothetical early matchups in round 2 pools, barring upsets.

Disclaimer: The spoiler below contains entirely hypothetical matches that may not happen due to changes in pool and upsets, this is a sorta-guess based on a projected beta bracket, and this should not be taken as the truth.

Spoiler: Big

I spent way more time on this than I should have.

 

[The-Technique]

Smash 4 Peach does seem to have a record of little miss even matchup; float is just one of the most adaptable tools in the game, period. (Maybe the single most adaptable?) So I can actually buy it.

Gluttony's Wario looked better than ever in that set, but yet it was still a hard-fought set that arguably only won due to various missed techs on Fatality's part. Additionally, wouldn't Falcon be one of Wario's better matchups? Good luck getting those amazing gimps on Diddy or ZSS, much less Bayo...

As a matter of fact...

 

[soniczx123]

Smash 4 Peach does seem to have a record of little miss even matchup; float is just one of the most adaptable tools in the game, period. (Maybe the single most adaptable?) So I can actually buy it.

Gluttony's Wario looked better than ever in that set, but yet it was still a hard-fought set that arguably only won due to various missed techs on Fatality's part. Additionally, wouldn't Falcon be one of Wario's better matchups? Good luck getting those amazing gimps on Diddy or ZSS, much less Bayo...

What's the consensus on a modern Bayo matchup chart?

Broader bonus question: What does a full Bayo/Cloud/Diddy/Sheik/Sonic matchup chart look like in July 2017?

Diddy is one of the easiest of the top tiers to gimp for Wario.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

About the potential of Ryuga vs Komorikiri in semis, I feel it will be less interesting then you said. Ryuga has cloud problems and even says it's Corrins worst matchup so I feel Komo will easily make finals of the pool.

 

[Das Koopa]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...T85AhPJmTiocxsLch_4nrk4ssY/edit#gid=840311788

I'll do pool analysis when pools are finalized on the 7th but these are the preliminary round 2 pools for EVO. High upset potential in every pool with Bo3 going on. 42/50 PGRv3 attending. A couple of these Round 2 pools have upwards of 7 players that could easily make a large upset.

Preliminary seeding indicates Winners Top 32 Qualifiers sets are;

Nairo vs. FOW
Larry Lurr vs. Tsu
VoiD vs. Raito
KEN vs. ANTi
Abadango vs. Locus
Mr. R vs. Elegant
Tweek vs. Kameme
Kirihara vs. Fatality
ZeRo vs. Nietono
MKLeo vs. WaDi
Ally vs. MVD
Dabuz vs. 9B
Salem vs. falln
komorikiri vs. Samsora
Captain Zack vs. Zinoto
Ranai vs. ESAM

 

[TDK]

更新
DK's MU pic.twitter.com/Nz5q6nlZGg

— 8LX / YG / HIKARU (@HIKARU_ssbu) July 4, 2017

I think this is pretty accurate for DK, although I do have to question ZSS in even.

Also, how do you only get the single hit of Wario's Dair like that? I can understand trading with a hit, but Gluto got it vs Jr, a character without a hitbox on his Up-B...

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Surprised to see Mario at 4.5 for DK when it was thought forva long time that DK had an advantage


Bayo at 4.0 too? Yea I know she can combo and edgegaurd him offstage for free. But ya cannot deny how strong Ding-Dong is vs her. Maybe 4.5 for DK becuase of that

 

[Routa]

Also, how do you only get the single hit of Wario's Dair like that? I can understand trading with a hit, but Gluto got it vs Jr, a character without a hitbox on his Up-B...

By getting the very corner hitbox and drifting away before it is able to connect with another hitbox. Really hard to do intentionally. Adding fast falling makes it easier to get, but there is higher chance that you will SD while trying.
Hitboxes of the before the finisher:

 

[Poisonous]

更新
DK's MU pic.twitter.com/Nz5q6nlZGg

— 8LX / YG / HIKARU (@HIKARU_ssbu) July 4, 2017

I think this is pretty accurate for DK, although I do have to question ZSS in even.

Also, how do you only get the single hit of Wario's Dair like that? I can understand trading with a hit, but Gluto got it vs Jr, a character without a hitbox on his Up-B...

Doing a rising dair is a much easier way to force the semi-spike, or going for a trade vs moves like firefox/corrin's upb. Rising dair is known to have chars fall out of it the most, which is why dair OoS isn't always a good idea vs med-height chars at kill %s since they'll sometimes just plop out.

 

[Frihetsanka]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...T85AhPJmTiocxsLch_4nrk4ssY/edit#gid=840311788

I'll do pool analysis when pools are finalized on the 7th but these are the preliminary round 2 pools for EVO. High upset potential in every pool with Bo3 going on. 42/50 PGRv3 attending. A couple of these Round 2 pools have upwards of 7 players that could easily make a large upset.

Ryuga in the same pool as Komorikiri, Samsora, and Zenyou. Cosmos in the same pool as Captain Zack, Zinoto, and Pink Fresh. Only two in each pool makes it out? Three bad MUs for Cosmos, one for Ryuga. Will either of them pull off an upset?

Will we see any Earth Corrin or MkLeo Corrin? That would be hype too.

 

[Lord Dio]

My thoughts on TDK's EVO post:
While Fatality seems to be the best counter the US has to Japan, and did beat Kirihara, it should be noted it was game 5, with Kirihara almost getting the reverse 3-0 iirc.
I really, really, REALLY want to see SuperGirlKels beat ZeRo. She did so well vs him at Royal Flush, I think she can definitely pull it off.
While Captain L's bracket is very hard for him, it could be a tiny bit worse. There is a small possibility of him fighting his way to Komo, Idk if Komo has experience vs Pika, but Pika is regarded as not good for Cloud, so Captain L has a small chance of making an upset if he gets the momentum.

Also since you said these were r2 pools......keep in mind anything's possible in r1 pools.