Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Laken64]

https://panda.gg/blogs/smash-bros/pgrv3-area-51

 

[TDK]

Some upsets from tonights MSM:

Jin~Tek 2-0 Aarvark
K9Sbruce 2-1 Falln

EDIT:

Five 2-0 Aarvark , Aarvark goes out at 25th
ImHip (Maybe ?) 2-1 Falln , Falln out at 9th

EDIT2: MSM 102 (128 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: VoiD
2nd: Charliedaking
3rd: K9Sbruce
4th: ImHip
5th: Mr. Con Con
5th: Jin~Tek
7th: ThatOneRider
7th: MageOfSymphonia

9th: Falln , Ac
25th: Aarvark
33rd: Razo

 

[Das Koopa]

Spoiler: Smashadelphia 2017 (June 23rd-25th) (Tristate) (118 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: ESAM
2nd: Dabuz
3rd: WaDi
4th: Mew2King
5th: Light
5th: Shoyo James
7th: dekillsage
7th: Raptor
9th: Frozen
9th: John Numbers
9th: Vivid
9th: The Great Gonzales
13th: Edwin
13th: Pelca
13th: Vash
13th: Bryce

Spoiler: Karisuma 14 (June 24th) (Chubu) (72 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: 9B
2nd: Taiheita
3rd: Kisha ,
4th: Masha ,
5th: Ranai ,
5th: komorikiri ,
7th: Edge
7th: Songn

Spoiler: Who’s Your Pappy 8 (June 25th) (Northern California) (117 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Legit
2nd: JK
3rd: Trevonte
4th: BestNess
5th: DSS
5th: Shaky
7th: 3xA
7th: Xzax

Spoiler: Revolt 2017 (June 24th-25th) (Southwest) (99 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Stroder ,
2nd: Skylar
3rd: BANG!
4th: Fahrenheit
5th: Illusion ,
5th: Tetsuyalol ,
7th: HoboJoe
7th: Red Panda ,

Spoiler: Just Roll With It 7 (June 24th) (Southeast) (144 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Peabnut
2nd: Lee ,
3rd: Donquavious ,
4th: Dandy Penguin
5th: Promaelia ,
5th: Kai
7th: Mekos
7th: RFang ,

Spoiler: Gwinnett Brawl June (June 24th) (Southeast) (106 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Wrath
2nd: Salt One ,
3rd: HyperKirby
4th: Sonido
5th: Rango
5th: RosaGetsFit ,
7th: Tortas FC
7th: NovaOkami

Spoiler: Smash Fight Club 100 (June2 4th) (South) (97 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Twi
2nd: DJ Fliphop
3rd: Candy
4th: BC
5th: HaKii
5th: SaSSy
7th: RuslinJimmies_RJ
7th: Shadow_PR

Spoiler: Hail Smash IX (June 24th) (Mexico) (71 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Javi ,
2nd: Hyuga ,
3rd: Phantom ,
4th: Captain Levi ,

Spoiler: Grand Slam Smash 1 Year Anniversary (June 24th) (New England) (42 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Koolaid ,
2nd: Kuma
3rd: Ntarps
4th: Kero

Spoiler: We Tech Those 10 (June 25th) (Southeast) (37 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: ScAtt
2nd: Mr. Speedman
3rd: Mahgnittoc
4th: QT

Spoiler: Soda Smash – Darmstadt (June 25th) (Germany) (52 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: cyve
2nd: Tomenimo ,
3rd: quiK
4th: Tru4

Spoiler: Gaming Revolution 2017 (June 24th) (Puerto Rico) (37 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Xeon ,
2nd: S@nt ,
3rd: Basic
4th: Excel_Zero

Spoiler: Couchwarriors June (June 25th) (Australia) (74 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Jdizzle
2nd: Extra ,
3rd: Boozer
4th: Duon ,

Spoiler: Climax 2 (June 25th) (Midwest) (75 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: DarkShad
2nd: Cosmos
3rd: Captain Zack
4th: Miloni

Spoiler: Razor Smash Bash 5 (June 24th) (South) (47 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Chuck Nasty ,
2nd: Muse ,
3rd: Doctor B
4th: MJG ,

Spoiler: Updated Character Scores

Bayonetta: 313
Cloud: 290
Diddy Kong: 288.5
Sonic: 196.5
Sheik: 183.5
Mario: 181
Zero Suit Samus: 169
Fox: 166
Rosalina & Luma: 143
Mewtwo: 123.5
Ryu: 112
Meta Knight: 99.5
Mega Man: 93.5
Corrin: 74
Captain Falcon: 74
Marth: 71
Ness: 66.5
Villager: 65
Peach: 63
Luigi: 62.5
Greninja: 59.5
Pikachu: 59
Donkey Kong: 56.5
Olimar: 56
Lucas: 53.5
Bowser: 51.5
Lucina: 50
Toon Link: 44.5
R.O.B.: 37
Mr. Game & Watch: 36.5
Samus: 31
Yoshi: 30.5
Duck Hunt: 30
Charizard: 24.5
Ike: 23
Wii Fit Trainer: 22.5
Little Mac: 20
Lucario: 19
Roy: 18.5
Robin: 18
Pac-Man: 13.5
Link: 13
Palutena: 11.5
Pit: 11
Shulk: 9
King Dedede: 7
Ganondorf: 6
Wario: 6
Falco: 6
Zelda: 5
Jigglypuff: 5
Mii Brawler: 3.5
Mii Gunner: 1

 

[Nobie]

Apparently there was a small monthly in NYC this past weekend. I found the Challonge bracket but not the characters used:

http://challonge.com/GBNBTGIVsmash

 

[Jaguar360]

Apparently there was a small monthly in NYC this past weekend. I found the Challonge bracket but not the characters used:

http://challonge.com/GBNBTGIVsmash

GBN BTG IV (38 entrants) (New York City)
1. Sinji
2. zz
3. Freelancer Leo
4. Gen

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Is that shinji or a different pacman?

 

[TDK]

Dubai Dojo 2 has been announced. So far, the guests confirmed for it are Edge , Ron , and Ranai

Is that shinji or a different pacman?

Shinji = Sinji. In fact, to my knowledge, the Pac-Man named "Shinji" doesn't actually exist.

 

[Lord Dio]

PGR v3
50. FOW
49. Choco
48. JK
47. Edge
46. WaDi
45. AC
44. Javi
43. Nietono
42. Nakat
41. ScAtt

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

This is up now.

 

[Lord Dio]

Important to note: Nietono's top 10 record is 1-2. The only person who could be top 10 who's lost to Nietono is Komo, thus confirming that Komo is in the Top 10.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Important to note: Nietono's top 10 record is 1-2. The only person who could be top 10 who's lost to Nietono is Komo, thus confirming that Komo is in the Top 10.

Also, JKs card confirms Salem is not top 10 and another card confirms Tweek is not top 10. Also, while obvious. Larry and Captain Zack are confirmed top 10 from Wadis and Fows card.

EDIT: Using cards and knowing people who are obviously top 10, the top 10 (no order) is Zero, Ally, Dabuz, Nairo, Mr.R, Larry, Captain Zack, Komorikiri, Abadango, and MKLeo. (Aba was figured out looking at Nakat record vs top 10 PGR. Aba could also be VoiD but knowing Abas placings it's likely him)

 

[Das Koopa]

It's Aba. Ac and NAKAT's set records confirm it. NAKAT's record vs. the new Top 10 is 0-3, including a loss to Aba, while Ac hasn't fought VoiD this season but has lost to Aba, which makes his third loss vs. the new top 10 (With ZeRo & Mr. R)

 

[Aaron1997]

Guess who's Returning

You have no idea how long Pac players have been waiting for this

 

[TDK]

S@X 06/27/2017 (92 Entrants) (MD/VA)

1st: 6WX
2nd: ZD
3rd: Pink Fresh
4th: Minix
5th: Qwerty
5th: Seagull Joe
7th: Blazing Pasta
7th: Dexter

 

[Das Koopa]

JUNE DATA

Cloud +1.3%
Diddy Kong +0.8%
Zero Suit Samus +0.8%
Rosalina & Luma +0.5%
Meta Knight +0.5%
Mega Man +0.5%
Peach +0.5%
Olimar +0.5%
Sonic +0.4%
Corrin +0.3%
Marth +0.3%
Toon Link +0.3%
Pikachu +0.3%
Bayonetta +0.3%
Villager +0.1%
Bowser = 1.4%
Ness -0.1%
Lucina -0.2%
Sheik -0.3%
Lucas -0.3%
Luigi -0.3%
Ryu -0.3%
Other -0.4%
Mewtwo -0.4%
Mario -0.5%
Samus -0.6%
Fox -0.7%
R.O.B. -0.7%
Greninja -0.8%
Captain Falcon -1.2%
Donkey Kong -1.2%

Spoiler: Full Results June

Bayonetta: 313
Cloud: 290
Diddy Kong: 288.5
Sonic: 196.5
Sheik: 183.5
Mario: 181
Zero Suit Samus: 169
Fox: 166
Rosalina & Luma: 143
Mewtwo: 123.5
Ryu: 112
Meta Knight: 99.5
Mega Man: 93.5
Corrin: 74
Captain Falcon: 74
Marth: 71
Ness: 66.5
Villager: 65
Peach: 63
Luigi: 62.5
Greninja: 59.5
Pikachu: 59
Donkey Kong: 56.5
Olimar: 56
Lucas: 53.5
Bowser: 51.5
Lucina: 50
Toon Link: 44.5
R.O.B.: 37
Mr. Game & Watch: 36.5
Samus: 31
Yoshi: 30.5
Duck Hunt: 30
Charizard: 24.5
Ike: 23
Wii Fit Trainer: 22.5
Little Mac: 20
Lucario: 19
Roy: 18.5
Robin: 18
Pac-Man: 13.5
Link: 13
Palutena: 11.5
Pit: 11
Shulk: 9
King Dedede: 7
Ganondorf: 6
Wario: 6
Falco: 6
Zelda: 5
Jigglypuff: 5
Mii Brawler: 3.5
Mii Gunner: 1

Spoiler: Combined Phase 4-5

Bayonetta: 825.5
Cloud: 822.5
Diddy Kong: 808
Sheik: 630.5
Fox: 514.5
Sonic: 475.5
Mario: 468.5
Zero Suit Samus: 404.5
Rosalina & Luma: 373.5
Mewtwo: 323
Ryu: 281
Marth: 251
Meta Knight: 246
Captain Falcon: 216.5
Mega Man: 202.5
Corrin: 191
Villager: 177.5
Ness: 176
Luigi: 176
Peach: 172.5
Donkey Kong: 163
Olimar: 158.5
Greninja: 156
Pikachu: 151
Toon Link: 141
Lucina: 132
R.O.B.: 116
Bowser: 115.5
Lucario: 110.5
Lucas: 97.5
Duck Hunt: 89.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 85.5
Robin: 72.5
Shulk: 71.5
Pit: 70
Samus: 68.5
Yoshi: 59.5
Charizard: 52.5
Link: 52
Ike: 49.5
Roy: 49
Wii Fit Trainer: 40.5
Little Mac: 38.5
Wario: 38
Pac-Man: 28.5
Palutena: 26
Falco: 21
Dark Pit: 14.5
Mii Brawler: 12.5
King Dedede: 10.5
Dr. Mario: 7
Ganondorf: 7
Zelda: 7
Jigglypuff: 5
Kirby: 2
Bowser Jr.: 1
Mii Gunner: 1
Mii Swordfighter: 0

Results Thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Methodology: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xANyxbGsV8-JKT4PHyrIKbveXVqL93Y0Leb0NALmAsY/edit

Previous Month(s): https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...insight-analysis.445990/page-95#post-21760300

 

[Emblem Lord]

That's the thing broken characters aren't inconsistent. They routinely take majors and locals across various scenes from various players. I've seen broken original injustice superman (blockstring infinite, safe zoning, way too much damage and a 2 frame super), mvc 3 Phoenix ( have to kill her twice she can kill anyone in the game in one combo and a free incoming mix up), sagat sf4, red venom (designed to be busted), storm Marvel 2, sentinel (marvel 2), magneto (marvel 2)ECT.
Broken characters also tend to elevate players to a level that they often cannot repeat. Such as evo champ viscant. He never had success on that level after Phoenix was changed. Sagat made players like Mike Ross into viable tourney threats.
Broken characters do several things to a game
They dominate so completely that a characters value can be determined based on how well they fight that character
They elevate players maybe beyond their threshold
Have a mechanic or exploit in the brand that cannot be countered (marvel 2 sentinel has permanent super armor and storm can fly away and build get meter
They Have no weakness in their kit (sagat and injustice 1 prepatch superman)
This is based off my experience with fighting games.
Don't think bayo has even one of those covered.

Off topic: Sagat had weaknesses, but most of the cast could not abuse them well enough.

On topic: Broken does not necessarily mean no weaknesses though. Just means That character has tools That literally break the mold of what you should be able to do or they are on a completely different level.

Brawl Meta knight was that character.

Bayo has some attributes that are crazy, but I would not call her broken. And as stated her results are just not at that level.

 

[Illusion.]

Is being that high entirely John Numbers' doing?

 

[Lord Dio]

Is being that high entirely John Numbers' doing?

I'd say it's a safe assumption to say at least some of it is from CaptainZack

 

[verbatim]

I have never seen him win a bracket set with WFT. Idt he has any points.

 

[Bigbomb2]

Looks like Link, Pac, Shulk, and Wario players went into hiding. Have their high level players been active?

 

[TDK]

I have never seen him win a bracket set with WFT. Idt he has any points.

He uses her against other Bayos, such as Black Yoshi at Glitch 3 and Kamui at Climax 2 (So WFT should get some points for Climax 2). Both the sets he looked in danger of losing if it wasn't for Wii Fit, but he won them with her.

 

[Jaguar360]

Is being that high entirely John Numbers' doing?

Looked in Das Koopa's thread for June and saw that YoseFu got 3rd at a Category 1 tournament, which I think would contribute 2 points. The other results were John Numbers getting 9th at Smashadelphia and winning a smallish New Jersey regional with Wii Fit.

 

[Das Koopa]

Is being that high entirely John Numbers' doing?

Glitch 3 (Captain Zack, 3rd, secondary, 3.5 points)

Anomaly 2 (John Numbers, 1st, 4 points)

Combo Breaker 2017 (John Numbers, 2nd, 7 points)

Nova Smash 8 (John Numbers, 1st, 4 points)

Road to Scenic: Finale (YoseFu, 3rd, 2 points)

Smashadelphia 2017 (John Numbers, 9th, 2 points)

Mostly John Numbers, yes

 

[Deleted member]

Looks like Link, Pac, Shulk, and Wario players went into hiding. Have their high level players been active?

Nicko's only been attending WNF and MSM as far as Shulk goes. Dunno when he'll go to another major.

 

[Dre89]

Off topic: Sagat had weaknesses, but most of the cast could not abuse them well enough.

On topic: Broken does not necessarily mean no weaknesses though. Just means That character has tools That literally break the mold of what you should be able to do or they are on a completely different level.

Brawl Meta knight was that character.

Bayo has some attributes that are crazy, but I would not call her broken. And as stated her results are just not at that level.

That's because none of the top players play her. If people like Zero, Nairo, Aba etc. mained her she'd be considered the undisputed best character in the game. If Zero had mained her all this time she'd probably be put in a separate tier to the rest of the cast, her results would be that dominant.

 

[FeelMeUp]

That's because none of the top players play her. If people like Zero, Nairo, Aba etc. mained her she'd be considered the undisputed best character in the game. If Zero had mained her all this time she'd probably be put in a separate tier to the rest of the cast, her results would be that dominant.

She's not doing it with Salem and Zack, two players that are likely top 10 level in skill.
If it ain't happening now, it's never happening. Mr. R tried her, Dabuz tried her, Tweek plays her, Locus is now playing her, etc.
It sounds like you're saying "if literally everyone played Bayo, she would win things." To which I'd reply...duh?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Abadango himself is using her from time to time, with mixed results.

 

[TDK]

That's because none of the top players play her. If people like Zero, Nairo, Aba etc. mained her she'd be considered the undisputed best character in the game. If Zero had mained her all this time she'd probably be put in a separate tier to the rest of the cast, her results would be that dominant.

Actually, a large amount of those considered top players have at least tried using her. Mr. R, Dabuz, and Komo all used her for a while before dropping her, Tweek and Aba use her as one of their secondaries, Locus is picking her up, and then Salem and Zack are both top 20 players as well.

So no, this "no top players play bayo" doesn't fly, and to me sounds very close to the sentiment that no bayo players have skill at the game, which is just salt and nothing more.

 

[NairWizard]

Bayo is super annoying and I hate playing against her or watching her, but calling her broken is beyond delusional.

 

[verbatim]

He uses her against other Bayos, such as Black Yoshi at Glitch 3 and Kamui at Climax 2 (So WFT should get some points for Climax 2). Both the sets he looked in danger of losing if it wasn't for Wii Fit, but he won them with her.

i.e., no full sets. I don't set the standards for what does and doesn't count, but idt winning games (probably < 5 in noteable sets) across different sets should count for points.

 

[Dre89]

She's not doing it with Salem and Zack, two players that are likely top 10 level in skill.
If it ain't happening now, it's never happening. Mr. R tried her, Dabuz tried her, Tweek plays her, Locus is now playing her, etc.
It sounds like you're saying "if literally everyone played Bayo, she would win things." To which I'd reply...duh?

Did those guys have top level results before they picked up Bayo? I know Salem was a top player at the back end of the Brawl era but I'd never heard of Zack before Bayo so I don't know what his results were like.

Also, "Trying her" and "maining her since she was released" are two very different things.

I highly doubt if Zero mained her since release and had a similar level of mastery with her as he does with Diddy that he would be unsuccessful with her. He would absolutely dominate with her.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Dubai Dojo 2 has been announced. So far, the guests confirmed for it are Edge , Ron , and Ranai

Shinji = Sinji. In fact, to my knowledge, the Pac-Man named "Shinji" doesn't actually exist.

I blame Evangelion for that. :<

That said that is pretty impressive.

 

[Minordeth]

Did those guys have top level results before they picked up Bayo? I know Salem was a top player at the back end of the Brawl era but I'd never heard of Zack before Bayo so I don't know what his results were like.

This reads as implying that Bayo carries her players and is generally poor form. A more likely take: Salem is a player notorious for needing to be motivated to do well, much like - but not as bad as - Isai in Melee. Zack local results and clearly is invested in Bayo as a character and took a step up with that inspiration.
Both got necessary motivation from a character that clicked with them, much like anyone else that plays fighting games.

I highly doubt if Zero mained her since release and had a similar level of mastery with her as he does with Diddy that he would be unsuccessful with her. He would absolutely dominate with her.

That's a pretty safe guess, given that Zero is the best player on the planet.

Look, bottom line is that Bayo is a character that relies on successive DI/SDI reads, tricky movement, and an exceptional sense of neutral to do well at the top level. She seems broken to mid level and a seeming majority of high level players because top level strat is slow to trickle down and requires players to be actually good at defense. Smash 4 players, as has been pointed out a million times, are bad at defense.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Forgot to post. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySL9s_rWgOs
UR | big_makwon 2-1 over P1 | Captain Zackat Ignition #88.

 

[|RK|]

And then Ned eliminates Zack in Loser's Finals.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Pretty good way to round out some of the Bayo talk.
Starting to wonder what the high to top level counts for her against are like.
Her matchups lookin a little sus.

 

[Dre89]

This reads as implying that Bayo carries her players and is generally poor form. A more likely take: Salem is a player notorious for needing to be motivated to do well, much like - but not as bad as - Isai in Melee. Zack local results and clearly is invested in Bayo as a character and took a step up with that inspiration.
Both got necessary motivation from a character that clicked with them, much like anyone else that plays fighting games.



That's a pretty safe guess, given that Zero is the best player on the planet.

Look, bottom line is that Bayo is a character that relies on successive DI/SDI reads, tricky movement, and an exceptional sense of neutral to do well at the top level. She seems broken to mid level and a seeming majority of high level players because top level strat is slow to trickle down and requires players to be actually good at defense. Smash 4 players, as has been pointed out a million times, are bad at defense.

The original point I made was that the reason why Bayos results aren't super dominant is because the top players in the world don't play her. The counter point was that Salem and Zack are considered top players yet they don't have dominant results. It's not about whether their character carry them or not, it's about whether they were considered top players or not irrespective of character. I never got the impression they were considered top ten players before Bayo

 

[|RK|]

That's how it always goes. "X character has no losing MUs!" Always gotta sit back and wait on it.

On a separate note, I thought Bayonetta was supposed to be the best edgeguarding character in the game. Why is ZeRo's Diddy (and ESAM's Pikachu) the only two characters that consistently edgeguard Cloud?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Pretty good way to round out some of the Bayo talk.
Starting to wonder what the high to top level counts for her against are like.
Her matchups lookin a little sus.

Bayo's have been doing allright vs Diddy's that are not ZeRo. Zack and Salem beat Zinoto and MVD respectievely at CEO . Dont forget what Zack did to MVD as well a while back


So it was ignored that Tyroy 2-0'd Big Mak just at Ignition as well. Bayo has also been doing better vs Sheik as well. Void is really the only Sheik that really universally beats Bayo's. Having a dominant record vs Zack. Have Void and Salem actullay ever played each other?

Honestly its looking like Bayo mains are just learning this MU. In Elegant's past 2 sets vs Zack 3-0'd Elegant then Elegant just barely beat Zack 3-2 last stock after that.. and that was only due to a bad mistake/tech on Zack's part. Also Salem beat Elegant at Nairo saga. What I am trying to say is the Bayo slayer is not looking as clean as before in the MU
Once they realized that Luigi is suspectable to being camped out with better burst mobiliy and bigger hitboxes..


Ok this one I admit is looking suspect... and its looking like it may be slightly losing for Bayo.

 

[Minordeth]

The original point I made was that the reason why Bayos results aren't super dominant is because the top players in the world don't play her. The counter point was that Salem and Zack are considered top players yet they don't have dominant results. It's not about whether their character carry them or not, it's about whether they were considered top players or not irrespective of character. I never got the impression they were considered top ten players before Bayo

Maybe my reply was too vague? It doesn't really matter who they were before. Salem and Zack are top level players now. Tweek couldn't reach top level play until he picked up a good character. Nairo doesn't play Pit in Grands anymore. Ally was always playing a good character.

Your argument is what then? That if the top five players in the world picked up Bayo that it would somehow demonstrate how dominant she is? As opposed to how dominant all of their characters are already? How would you even prove that? Zero already obliterates top level talent with Diddy. Saying that he would dominate even more seems like a meaningless argument, I guess.