Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[outfoxd]

lol for 4 minutes that was p accurate

That actually seems kinda helpful as a real quick cheat sheet.

 

[|RK|]

http://sourcegaming.info/2017/06/23/internalnotes/

^Sakurai's internal dev notes for Smash 4. Contains some interesting tidbits about Shulk and Dedede in particular.

It seems Sakurai understands higher fall speed usually = stronger character. Or at least, that's my interpretation of this:

13. Increase the fall speed slightly

For characters whose fall speed is slow, increase their fall speed slightly. This has severe repercussions on character strength and balance, so make minute adjustments. The impact of this change to the characters should be minimal.

 

[ARISTOS]

http://sourcegaming.info/2017/06/23/internalnotes/

^Sakurai's internal dev notes for Smash 4. Contains some interesting tidbits about Shulk and Dedede in particular.

It seems Sakurai understands higher fall speed usually = stronger character. Or at least, that's my interpretation of this:

Slower fall speeds mean an increased ability to get juggled, which is the state where most damage is done in Smash. It also means a weakened ability to create mix-ups out of SH situations, which increases commitment greatly.

He's super on the nose with this but he couldn't save DDD lol

 

[Bowserboy3]

http://sourcegaming.info/2017/06/23/internalnotes/

^Sakurai's internal dev notes for Smash 4. Contains some interesting tidbits about Shulk and Dedede in particular.

It seems Sakurai understands higher fall speed usually = stronger character. Or at least, that's my interpretation of this:

What I find fascinating about this is how far back Sakurai was planning the characters and such. Shulk's notes go back to 2012.

And you can consider that the renders and such were also done by that time too. That's pretty cool to think about.

 

[Goombo]

The hurtbox may be good, but the best part about Ganons ledgegrab still is the face he draws.

Spoiler

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

http://sourcegaming.info/2017/06/23/internalnotes/

^Sakurai's internal dev notes for Smash 4. Contains some interesting tidbits about Shulk and Dedede in particular.

It seems Sakurai understands higher fall speed usually = stronger character. Or at least, that's my interpretation of this:

Very interesting I would love to see his notes on all the characters. Sakurai seemed to believe D3 was too strong in Brawl with all those intentional nerfs he gave the character though he did go overboard with it.

Something interesting to note his how he had planned his Side B to still include the Waddle Dees and Doos but due to 3DS limitations he gave him the superior Gordo Toss instead. Usually when we think of the 3DS version it about how it took away from the Wii U version because Nintendo wanted both versions to be the same game play wise (I.E Ice Climbers). However because of those same limitations, D3 got a much better side B out the deal. I just thought that was very neat.

 

[TDK]

http://sourcegaming.info/2017/06/23/internalnotes/

^Sakurai's internal dev notes for Smash 4. Contains some interesting tidbits about Shulk and Dedede in particular.

It seems Sakurai understands higher fall speed usually = stronger character. Or at least, that's my interpretation of this:

His (Shulk's) down special, Vision, is a counter that changes the flow of time for his enemies.

So, at one point Shulk was going to have Witch Time?

 

[Krysco]

Very interesting I would love to see his notes on all the characters. Sakurai seemed to believe D3 was too strong in Brawl with all those intentional nerfs he gave the character though he did go overboard with it.

Something interesting to note his how he had planned his Side B to still include the Waddle Dees and Doos but due to 3DS limitations he gave him the superior Gordo Toss instead. Usually when we think of the 3DS version it about how it took away from the Wii U version because Nintendo wanted both versions to be the same game play wise (I.E Ice Climbers). However because of those same limitations, D3 got a much better side B out the deal. I just thought that was very neat.

Side b being better is debatable since Brawl's allowed 2 of any combination of Waddle Dee/Doo/Gordo out at a time and when they got hit, they didn't fly into D3's face. Plus gordo was stronger and I wanna say it came out faster though I could be wrong on that.

Sakurai seeing Brawl D3 and nerfing him in the next game is oddly familiar

 

[Lord Dio]

So Dedede almost had a chain grab......fascinating.

 

[Luigi player]

So Dedede almost had a chain grab......fascinating.

He had one in Brawl, that's why he noted and wanted to remove it.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

So, at one point Shulk was going to have Witch Time?

I think it's more along the lines of how it happens now where you do technically slow down when you hit Shulk's Counter animation wise.

Side b being better is debatable since Brawl's allowed 2 of any combination of Waddle Dee/Doo/Gordo out at a time and when they got hit, they didn't fly into D3's face. Plus gordo was stronger and I wanna say it came out faster though I could be wrong on that.

Sakurai seeing Brawl D3 and nerfing him in the next game is oddly familiar

It's debatable because Gordo Toss isn't a great move itself because it's so easy to swat back but I think it's ledge trapping ability is actually fantastic and makes it a overal better move.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

In his source game, Vision shows your party getting hit by a powerful move in slow motion (enough to take a member of your party, put them all on very low HP, give them a strong status debuff, or lose the fight altogether) then you would have 7 seconds to change the future or suffer a terrible fate. Also using Chain Attacks in the source game slowed down time too.

I would of originally thought Vision would work very similar to Witch Time in Smash.

 

[Krysco]

I think it's more along the lines of how it happens now where you do technically slow down when you hit Shulk's Counter animation wise.


It's debatable because Gordo Toss isn't a great move itself because it's so easy to swat back but I think it's ledge trapping ability is actually fantastic and makes it a overal better move.

Checked and the Brawl side b is indeed faster, coming out on f18 to Sm4sh's f29 (both the hammer swing and the gordo). Brawl's also gave him a projectile shield, a surprise kill move whenever gordo's came out and while rng based and more restrictive in positioning, Waddle Doo's could have been decent ledgetrap tools too since their beam would likely go below the ledge. Gordo Toss is indeed a more consistent ledgetrap tool though.

 

[T4ylor]

Envoy of Chaos As a former Dedede main, I consider his current side special to be significantly worse than its Brawl counterpart. Besides, Dedede's Gordo isn't something I would call good for ledge trapping. It's actually fairly poor, all things considered.

 

[TDK]

https://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

Karisuma 14 is happening tonight, here. Has Komo, Ranai, Earth, 9B, ikep, Edge, Sigma, Taiheita, and more in attendance.

 

[williamsga555]

Gordo is, viability-speaking, a worse move than Waddle Dee Toss. It's less safe across the board and lacks the utility the original had (both for movement and the general projectile shielding).

That said, I think Gordo toss is a much better designed move that suffers from being undertuned in some areas (namely the thirty-five frames of endlag, making any given toss a sixty-four frame commitment). It offers up a lot more in terms of clever uses, and the ledge trapping setups available have serious upside. But this is (or at least, should be) known information at this point.

=====
The development notes were interesting. It's a shame that some elements of them ended up being a bit overkill towards his kit. Namely the nerfs to both uptilt and upsmash. Uptilt was pretty justified, but upsmash is nigh unusable as it is now -mediocre damage, poor scaling, forty-four ending frames, and a miserable hitbox. Ugh.

 

[TDK]

Some upsets from Karisuma:
Masha > Taiheita in pools, Taiheita makes it out at second
Ageha-Sama and Lickey > Komorikiri in pools, Komo makes it out at 4th.

ikep 2-0 Komorikiri
TOSHI 2-0 Edge
Masha 2-0 Earth
Kisha 2-0 ikep

 

[Locke 06]

Masha plays smash 4?

 

[Finh009]

Masha plays smash 4?

Yeah, he's also really good. Speaking of which:

Masha 2-1 2GG | Komorikiri

Taiheita 2-0 Ranai

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Masha used to be a Shulk main for the longest, he just recently dropped Shulk.

 

[Nu~]

Is the villager/Lucas MU SO bad that ranai didn't try to use him once?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

No, not at all unless they seem to overwhelm you if you charge in recklessly or panic when you are in the air on in the fair juggle. Maybe Ranai just chose to work on his secondaries.

 

[Finh009]

Karisuma 14 (72 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: SHI-G | 9B
2nd: Taiheita
3rd: Kisha
4th: Masha
5th: 2GG | Komorikiri
5th: Ranai
7th: Edge
7th: Songn

Spoiler: Rest of Top 16

9th: DIO
9th: TOSHI
9th: Paseriman
9th: ikep
13th: Chanshu
13th: NGA
13th: Chart-yatsu
13th: Tsu~

Earth and Sigma got 17th.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Some upsets from Karisuma:
Masha > Taiheita in pools, Taiheita makes it out at second
Ageha-Sama and Lickey > Komorikiri in pools, Komo makes it out at 4th.

ikep 2-0 Komorikiri
TOSHI 2-0 Edge
Masha 2-0 Earth
Kisha 2-0 ikep

Would it really be an upset if you won in a MU that's inherently in your character's favour?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Apparantly Ranai went all Ryu tonight except for his game vs Taiheita.

Sad Day.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I hope the rise of Masha also helps other veterans like Kakera, Ootori and MIKENEKO to return.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Ignore this

 

[FamilyTeam]

5th: 2GG | Komorikiri

Came to look at the results. Komo used Lucina too, worth noting. Did pretty well.
He used her early on but I don't know about the rest of the tournament. I couldn't watch it all.

NairWizard (can't quote post on mobile properly, sorry)
Floor showed me that other discussion, about character attachment.
Has anything in particular happened, recently? Because I've been seeing the subject of being attached to fictional characters being brought up quite a lot recently in the circles I tend to hang around. I think it's interesting discussion and I've been talking about it with my friends irl and on social medias as of late.
The way I see it, I cannot just look at fictional character as "pixels on a screen". I don't think fictional characters are shallow to the point of being seen as just that.
I think they potentially can and should be seen as more than just elements in a story of some kind. They're representations of who we are and what we feel, and a long time ago, I saw an argument that I still agree with: if, even at a superficial level, we didn't see fictional characters as people, we wouldn't be able to like or identify with them.
Characters can also potentially have a lot of influence in who likes them. Lucina being real or not, the impacts she has had in my life are as real as can be. She has helped me in ways I couldn't think something could help me.
I'll say this: "she was there when no one else was" can be more true than it seems.
If you look at stuff like how I look, it's hard for me to look at that kind if thing as "Just pixels on a screen". Not that I think there'd be anything wrong with that, anyway, we are just atoms in space.

 

[Floor]

I didn't say anything before, but Lucina is more than just pixels on a screen. Mario is more than just a fictional character given life through pixels.

The most popular video game franchise (Nintendo) got where it is now by putting pixels on screens. Games are more than pixels. Movies, while sometimes casting real actors, are more than just moving images. Music is more than a sequence of vibrations, it takes you to places unimaginable. Books are more than just ink on pages, they pull you into a world of endless imagination.

Smash, at a scientific level, exist as physical pixels on a screen, but those pixels brought me into this community. Lucina's pixels, specifically, brought me into Marcina Discord where I made a whole bunch friends. They are a network of people; maybe if life brings me to Germany one day, one of my Marcina Discord buddies can give me a place to stay.

I can't say for certain I would be as passionate about Smash if it weren't for Lucina, or at a minimum, some other Smash character's pixels; she/they brought me to Smashboards, which showed me that Discord exists. I fell in love with Discord. Having no Smash scene at my college, I used Discord and made a college-Smash server. The eSports group at my college caught wind of my growing server and approached me about wanting to merge and creating a Smash branch at my university's eSports group, of which I would lead. Fast forward a semester and I'm a TO of a 30 man weekly with tons of support from the eSports club. Not only that, but if Max Ketchum's collegiate stuff works out, I (we) could be taking the most stacked Smash collegiate team to compete. That's something I can put on a resume.

Yeah, people are usually pretty biased about their character, but the character might just be the wings they need to fly. My campus knows me as The-Lucina-Main-Who-Brought-Smash-to-UTA (My college). Character bias will always exist, which is why I find Discord to be more productive; the character bias there is the same. Something like this, where we have a Pika main, a Link main, and a Lucina main, is prone to more fighting than a Marcina only server. Maybe the discussion will lead to more incorrect statements in a Marcina only server, but there is less fighting.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

For you Lucas fans, Mekos and Pauleke are at Just Roll With It 7 in North Carolina. They entered in singles and doubles.

LIVE NOW

https://twitch.tv/zinfu

https://smash.gg/tournament/just-roll-with-it-7/events

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Came to look at the results. Komo used Lucina too, worth noting. Did pretty well.
He used her early on but I don't know about the rest of the tournament. I couldn't watch it all.

NairWizard (can't quote post on mobile properly, sorry)
Floor showed me that other discussion, about character attachment.
Has anything in particular happened, recently? Because I've been seeing the subject of being attached to fictional characters being brought up quite a lot recently in the circles I tend to hang around. I think it's interesting discussion and I've been talking about it with my friends irl and on social medias as of late.
The way I see it, I cannot just look at fictional character as "pixels on a screen". I don't think fictional characters are shallow to the point of being seen as just that.
I think they potentially can and should be seen as more than just elements in a story of some kind. They're representations of who we are and what we feel, and a long time ago, I saw an argument that I still agree with: if, even at a superficial level, we didn't see fictional characters as people, we wouldn't be able to like or identify with them.
Characters can also potentially have a lot of influence in who likes them. Lucina being real or not, the impacts she has had in my life are as real as can be. She has helped me in ways I couldn't think something could help me.
I'll say this: "she was there when no one else was" can be more true than it seems.
If you look at stuff like how I look, it's hard for me to look at that kind if thing as "Just pixels on a screen". Not that I think there'd be anything wrong with that, anyway, we are just atoms in space.

That may be and SolidSense could've definitely worded that differently. I think the problem is, and this is what I think SolidSense meant. Is that people get so passionate about their character that it goes off into borderline obsession. It's excellent that liking and even loving the character allows someone to find a community, make friends, and branch out socially when someone otherwise might not have done so.
However, just like in that Stephen King story Misery, some people take badmothing or the pointing out of a weakness of a character as a personal affront and then level hate, death threats and so on and so forth at a person when they weren't really trying to offend anyone. The fact that it happens so often is the reason it's constantly brought up in discussions.
People write hate fics showing the characters critics dying and getting hurt in awful horrible ways, there was that whole 'swatting' incident I think over some immature asshole getting beat in COD, heck we even sometimes see it right here on the boards!
It's fine to see characters as people but when you think someone should get hurt, receive hate, or even that they shouldn't be where they are based on one little opinion you're going too far.

 

[FamilyTeam]

That is because way too much of anything is bad.
Discussing this subject of attachment with my friends, I tell them that, not even that lomg ago, I was wondering how healthy my liking for my favourite characters is.
I have, in the distant past, been the kind of person to go very aggressive and threatening when even just casually talking about the characters I loved the most, so I kmow very well when something is actually transitioning from healthy love to unhealthy obsession.
It's natural for people be defensive to a certain extent of the characters you hold dear, and setting your bias aside completely is impossible. Just like they teach in human sciences, if you guys remember, we see and interpret the world based off our own past, personal experiences, so your bias will always slip by even if slightly.
None of this is inherently bad if kept to a reasonable extent, and if people can understand and respect it. We do have our own human limitations and failures.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Mekos got 4th in doubles at Just Roll With it 7.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Thing is not all of us have taken a human sciences class (heck I don't even know what the heck that means!) all I know is what i've observed happening time and time again. It's almost as predictable as clockwork.
How does one know if one's passion for a character is going too far? Is it when you go off on an angry diatribe about how x player constantly underestimates a certain character? Maybe getting subconsciously defensive about such immature and hasty judgements like 'man this character just sucks versus that other character'.
There's a line somewhere, but most people don't know where to draw it.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Thing is not all of us have taken a human sciences class (heck I don't even know what the heck that means!) all I know is what i've observed happening time and time again. It's almost as predictable as clockwork.
How does one know if one's passion for a character is going too far? Is it when you go off on an angry diatribe about how x player constantly underestimates a certain character? Maybe getting subconsciously defensive about such immature and hasty judgements like 'man this character just sucks versus that other character'.
There's a line somewhere, but most people don't know where to draw it.

"Human sciences' is just a broader term I used for things like Philosophy/Sociology/Psychology and the sorts, which are subjects you tend to have in High School/College. It's the same way that Physics/Maths would be "Exact Sciences".

I think the relationships players have with their character is, in my opinion, absolutely a relevant subject we can discuss. Leo picked up Corrin because he liked Fire Emblem Fates. ZeRo picked up Lucina because he liked playing as her and thought he could do neat things with her and use her in tournament. ESAM very obviously likes Pikachu a lot.

5Tsd posted this earlier, but in a spoiler so I don't know who saw it or not, so I'll post it again in case anybody hasn't seen it. It's a very informative video about picking characters.

 

[|RK|]

Separately, the FGC audience is already going off about Combofiend saying they don't need Magneto because "characters are just functions" and "people really just like Magneto because he's fast and can dash in 8 directions."

Hella good players have picked/not picked characters based on the sounds they make. Characters do mean something to people, and that affects how they play them, too. For top players, the character often becomes part of their brand (see: CaptainZack, or for a more low-key example, Nairo).

 

[ShadowGuy1]

2GG is hosting a donation drive for Komorikiri, Ranai, KEN, Shuton, Tsu, Kameme, Abadango, and Raitofor Arms Saga. Also, I believe they are all confirmed for EVO (besides Tsu I believe)

 

[NairWizard]

If you choose to see your set of pixels on a screen as more meaningful that's fine; expecting other people to also see your character as more than pixels on a screen is not okay. When I'm fighting Lucina in game I don't regard her story or character in any way. She's just hurtboxes, frame data, a moving figure on the tournament TV. When I analyze her as a character relative to Marth or others in the game it's the same; she's a collection of data, not something with real sentimental value. That's how it should be.

Character attachment isn't the problem. The problem is when you choose to adopt and defend arguments in an objective discussion solely on the basis of your character attachment. People were actually seriously comparing the difference between Marth and Lucina to the difference between Falcon and Ganon, and other people were supporting such an obviously groundless argument just because it speaks in favor of Lucina. When it's convenient for them, these same people will claim that they play Lucina over Marth because Lucina's playstyle is preferable to them; and when it's equally convenient, they'll claim that they actually play her for sentimental value or attachment. So which is it? The answer is that there's no consistent logical basis for any of these arguments; people are just agreeing with whatever argument supports their conclusion with no regard for its objective merit.

It's bull**** and like all good bull**** it deserves to be called out, that's all. I've posted bull**** before, been called out on it, and retracted my position. That's how good discussion should be. It's nothing personal against anyone.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Well, me personally, I play her because I like her a whole lot, so she holds a lot of sentimental value to me, and because I've tried Marth out and he doesn't fit me as well as Lucina fits me. Both aren't necessarily separate.

 

[TDK]

https://smashboards.com/threads/sum...mashadelphia-just-roll-with-it-climax.448565/

Took a while to find tournaments big enough to warrant their own thread this week.