Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Nocally]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESapAGXAnTE&t=109s pikachu wins against , , well with esam's opinion pikachu is indeed a secret top tier?

On a good day, I'll give him the Cloud as a decent match-up, but ESAM needs to be more consistent in his tournament matches against other top players of these characters before i'll give in to his words.

 

[my_T]

ANTi's Cloud won him grand finals at CEO.

 

[blackghost]

I'm laughing at this idea that bayo is a good secondary. She takes a lot of time investment and minimizing her faults in neutral is what makes elite bayos different from others.
As a bayo player there's a lot of mu she should easily win falcon and fox come to mind however that win is based on the assumption that you are on point for her fair string exploit. IF you aren't then you are facing a character(s) that are faster than you on the ground and have faster buttons.
God help you if it's a last hit situation.

 

[Illuminose]

she's not an ideal secondary if you consider a good secondary a character you can pick up in a month and barely work on to succeed

but the demonstrated prowess of aba/tweek bayos shows to me that fundamentals+lab time on combos will get you very far, and the value of having the best character in the game with many notable advantageous matchups as a secondary is obvious

 

[Krysco]

Yeah, I'm not seeing how this whole 'x character as secondary will fail' for the most part. The discussion is about a secondary, a character you would use second most, only behind your main. Not just some random pocket. Of course secondary Bayo's will likely be behind in skill compared to her mains. Those using her as a secondary likely haven't been using her for as long and don't use her as often. But overtime, that secondary Bayo could prove to be useful. Even if it's just as a change of pace in the event that the player isn't feeling too confident on their main. I doubt anyone who seriously wants a secondary is just going to come out of nowhere and say 'lol I have a Bayo now' without having put any amount of effort into her.

 

[Rizen]

Yeah, I'm not seeing how this whole 'x character as secondary will fail' for the most part. The discussion is about a secondary, a character you would use second most, only behind your main. Not just some random pocket. Of course secondary Bayo's will likely be behind in skill compared to her mains. Those using her as a secondary likely haven't been using her for as long and don't use her as often. But overtime, that secondary Bayo could prove to be useful. Even if it's just as a change of pace in the event that the player isn't feeling too confident on their main. I doubt anyone who seriously wants a secondary is just going to come out of nowhere and say 'lol I have a Bayo now' without having put any amount of effort into her.

Agree. This is SSB4; any secondary will take a lot of work, especially at a high level. ...even Cloud. I guess. Might as well choose a strong character.

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean, it just depends on what level of performance you are talking.

Sheik and Cloud are trivial to pick up at a top 10,000 player level, but almost as difficult as any other character to pick up at a top 100 level.

 

[Lord Dio]

Specifics, please?

Failed vs Ally at Genesis 4 (SD'ed when he could have wall jumped final stock of final game).
Chose Cloud as a CP against Tsu at frostbite and got dominated. Immediately went Falcon and took the next game.

Idk if it's gotten better or not, but since I checked, ZeRo's Cloud looks awful compared to top Clouds.

 

[PK Gaming]

Everything I read about Bayo always comes with an asterisk that reads: *until you get to top level play.

Like, yeah, Bayo counter play hasn't trickled down to even high level play consistently, so her tools still work pretty well.

Also, as has been demonstrated time and time again, top level players minimize their characters' weak points. Nairo makes you think that ZSS can easily work around the fact that she has to rely on perfectly executed Nairs by having the best, most intimidating CQC game on earth.

Zero overcomes Diddy's relative lack of burst damage by being insane at the ledge and by being oppressive in neutral, so that he can keep damage constant.

Dabuz overcomes Rosa's poor physics-based MUs by having a top 5 neutral and being smarter than you.

And really, Salem makes Bayo look like she can actually have a functioning neutral at top level by stuffing his opponents game plan. When that doesn't work Bayo gets murder by characters with better burst KO options or better neutrals.*





*So like three or four characters.

Tangentially related, but I really like how Smash 4 let's players express themselves.

We're still playing the "who's the best character game" whereas on most fighting games, it's highly evident.

 

[TheRabidChipmunk]

she's not an ideal secondary if you consider a good secondary a character you can pick up in a month and barely work on to succeed

Honestly though, what character does fit this description?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Honestly though, what character does fit this description?

At mid/high level?

Only the last 2 would work at top level, I'd imagine.

 

[Thinkaman]

Finally got around to watching CEO. Character thoughts in order of placement:

Zero was on his game, and gave yet another strong argument for Diddy being the #1 character in this game. MVD and Zintono backed this up; when played optimally; Diddy is simply the most adaptable and competent character across broad circumstance. It's telling that the best Cloud in the world opted for Corrin against Zero's Diddy.
MKLeo's Cloud convincingly stomped the best Rosa, Fox, and ZSS in the world.
...but used Corrin against Diddy and Bayo...
...and MK against Sonic. Both these CPs proved effective.
...but his Marth as a Fox CP worked against ZD and failed against Larry, only to beat Larry (sort of close but a solid win) with Cloud. Not sure what the bottom line of all this is for Cloud, but at the very least all 3 of these MKLeo CPs are relevant at top level play for sure.
Not much to say about Fox. Larry had a good tourney, winning against good players/matchups he has beaten before, showing us that Fox is still as relevant as it gets.
Ditto for ZSS, but Zack sure drew a contrast between Marss and Nairo. But it's also worth talking about Nairo's turnaround on Salem; a match he has historically struggled with he made look easy. Was this a fluke, or does this mark a new shift in the ZSS Bayo matchup? I want to hear informed opinions on this.
I agree with the popular notion that high-level Bayo counter-play is slow trickling down from the top 50 players. Both Zack and Salem had tough, close games against every top player they encountered. From the sets I watched, I don't see top-level Bayo getting better as a character, though Zack might as a player. Also, Bayo Sonic might be the least interesting matchup in Smash 4?
"Durrrr character picks don't matter if they lost!" Shut up and grow a brain. The best Bayonetta player in the world (sorry Salem) sincerely believed that his Peach and WFT had a better chance of winning than his Bayo against the world's best ZSS. Pay attention.
Wow, KEN really is the best Sonic. Like, we already knew that, but wow. Also, surprised Wrath beat ESAM...? I dunno, I always thought Pikachu (and ESAM) was solid against Sonic. Was this a fluke, or am I clueless about this matchup?
Every time I see Ranai play, I half expect him to win the event. Most Villagers I see are very rote and linear, but Ranai plays him like Diddy. With his convincing 3-0 of Dabuz, I honestly don't see anything in Villager's way. (Except lack of top-talent players)
Dabuz 3-0'd Tyrant and MKLeo used Cloud against him. Whatever happened to MK counters Rosa??? Also, I always thought Rosa was solid against both Villager and DH, but the matches you can watch from CEO do not indicate this in the slightest.
I am super optimistic about Duck Hunt now. Which is to say, I'm exactly as optimistic as I've been for a year and a half. Raito is the best DH, this is now clear. But Raito isn't a top 30 player; he's really great, but you can still see him making more unforced errors and panic moves than people he is beating. This is not matchup unfamiliarity--DH is not freakin' Bowser Jr. It's transparently clear to everyone watching that Duck Hunt has the neutral tools to compete in every matchup. If Raito's input and reaction consistency was that of a top 10 player rather than a top 100 player, he would have won the two sets he lost (Zack and Dabuz), and we'd be having a very different conversation.
It's hard to prove that you have winning matchups against Bayo Cloud Sheik when you get eliminated by a Villager and Sonic! But seriously, ESAM played well, and the matches are a good watch.
Didn't see.
Didn't see.
Didn't se--wait, the hell? What is Sheik doing down here? Who eliminated Mr. R? (Oh that's right, Raito.)

There was some interesting things floating just below the surface, as you can see in the results list:




I've been more impressed with Myran's Olimar play, and find myself more uncertain about Olimar's potential than other character with similar historical performance.

I feel like Dath is in a similar case as Raito. When I watch his matches, the character seems fine and demonstrates a surprising number of options. (And in Robin's case, consistent kill potential.) I think Robin, in the hands of a better player (including an improved Dath) would--like DH--become regarded as a clearly high-tier character.

Finally, Mac continues to consistently outplace his supposed tier. Just sayin'.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Salem is the best Bayo when he is playing at his absolute peal(Collision, Nairo Saga) But Zack is slightly more consitient overall maybe? At least when it comes to most S-tier events

 

[blackghost]

Finally got around to watching CEO. Character thoughts in order of placement:

Zero was on his game, and gave yet another strong argument for Diddy being the #1 character in this game. MVD and Zintono backed this up; when played optimally; Diddy is simply the most adaptable and competent character across broad circumstance. It's telling that the best Cloud in the world opted for Corrin against Zero's Diddy.
MKLeo's Cloud convincingly stomped the best Rosa, Fox, and ZSS in the world.
...but used Corrin against Diddy and Bayo...
...and MK against Sonic. Both these CPs proved effective.
...but his Marth as a Fox CP worked against ZD and failed against Larry, only to beat Larry (sort of close but a solid win) with Cloud. Not sure what the bottom line of all this is for Cloud, but at the very least all 3 of these MKLeo CPs are relevant at top level play for sure.
Not much to say about Fox. Larry had a good tourney, winning against good players/matchups he has beaten before, showing us that Fox is still as relevant as it gets.
Ditto for ZSS, but Zack sure drew a contrast between Marss and Nairo. But it's also worth talking about Nairo's turnaround on Salem; a match he has historically struggled with he made look easy. Was this a fluke, or does this mark a new shift in the ZSS Bayo matchup? I want to hear informed opinions on this.
I agree with the popular notion that high-level Bayo counter-play is slow trickling down from the top 50 players. Both Zack and Salem had tough, close games against every top player they encountered. From the sets I watched, I don't see top-level Bayo getting better as a character, though Zack might as a player. Also, Bayo Sonic might be the least interesting matchup in Smash 4?
"Durrrr character picks don't matter if they lost!" Shut up and grow a brain. The best Bayonetta player in the world (sorry Salem) sincerely believed that his Peach and WFT had a better chance of winning than his Bayo against the world's best ZSS. Pay attention.
Wow, KEN really is the best Sonic. Like, we already knew that, but wow. Also, surprised Wrath beat ESAM...? I dunno, I always thought Pikachu (and ESAM) was solid against Sonic. Was this a fluke, or am I clueless about this matchup?
Every time I see Ranai play, I half expect him to win the event. Most Villagers I see are very rote and linear, but Ranai plays him like Diddy. With his convincing 3-0 of Dabuz, I honestly don't see anything in Villager's way. (Except lack of top-talent players)
Dabuz 3-0'd Tyrant and MKLeo used Cloud against him. Whatever happened to MK counters Rosa??? Also, I always thought Rosa was solid against both Villager and DH, but the matches you can watch from CEO do not indicate this in the slightest.
I am super optimistic about Duck Hunt now. Which is to say, I'm exactly as optimistic as I've been for a year and a half. Raito is the best DH, this is now clear. But Raito isn't a top 30 player; he's really great, but you can still see him making more unforced errors and panic moves than people he is beating. This is not matchup unfamiliarity--DH is not freakin' Bowser Jr. It's transparently clear to everyone watching that Duck Hunt has the neutral tools to compete in every matchup. If Raito's input and reaction consistency was that of a top 10 player rather than a top 100 player, he would have won the two sets he lost (Zack and Dabuz), and we'd be having a very different conversation.
It's hard to prove that you have winning matchups against Bayo Cloud Sheik when you get eliminated by a Villager and Sonic! But seriously, ESAM played well, and the matches are a good watch.
Didn't see.
Didn't see.
Didn't se--wait, the hell? What is Sheik doing down here? Who eliminated Mr. R? (Oh that's right, Raito.)

There was some interesting things floating just below the surface, as you can see in the results list:




I've been more impressed with Myran's Olimar play, and find myself more uncertain about Olimar's potential than other character with similar historical performance.

I feel like Dath is in a similar case as Raito. When I watch his matches, the character seems fine and demonstrates a surprising number of options. (And in Robin's case, consistent kill potential.) I think Robin, in the hands of a better player (including an improved Dath) would--like DH--become regarded as a clearly high-tier character.

Finally, Mac continues to consistently outplace his supposed tier. Just sayin'.

Im not sure how much stock I put in the corrin bayo match there were several times corrin should have been dead and Salem did nothing instead.
As for Zack character choice I think Zack has more of a nairo problem than a zss one. Zack struggles when his opponent plays the mu correctly and punishes his landing. Just compare how mars fought him and how nairo fought him. It was night and day literally.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Im.not sure how much stock I put in the corrin bayo match there were several times cotton should have been dead and Salem did nothing instead.
As for Zack character choice I think Zack has more of a nairo problem than a zss one. Zack struggles when his opponent plays the mu correctly and punishes his landing. Just compare how mars fought him and how nairo fought him. It was night and day literally.

While as a Corrin main I believe they lose slightly to Bayo, and that Salem also made mistakes, just the week prior at MSM 100, Cosmos did 2-1 Salem.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

While as a Corrin main I believe they lose slightly to Bayo, and that Salem also made mistakes, just the week prior at MSM 100, Cosmos did 2-1 Salem.

MU inexperience maybe? Salem should work at that MU especially if he goes up against Leo again at EVO

 

[Illuminose]

Thinkaman

i'm tempted to call nairo beating salem a fluke, but it's really not, just like him bopping zero at momocon wasn't a fluke either. both diddy zss and bayo zss are still bad matchups for zss, but there's certain factors in play that make any zss matchup volatile. if you are getting all of the right hits and punishes, zss can win any set. salem's track record against nairo has been very good, with their last 3 sets (nairo saga, ktar xx, ktar xix) being 3-0 3-1 3-0 in salem's favor. the set nairo won at big house 6 was 3-0 in his favor, and that set was pretty much entirely won by up air ladders. when nairo played zero at momocon, we saw zero suffer a similar fate. i don't think nairo is doing anything groundbreaking; he played a little better than salem and did zss things.

now if we see nairo doing this stuff more times to salem/zero, that's when we can begin to think different things about those mus imo. for now, it's just a set.

 

[FeelMeUp]

is it possible to beat salem after losing the first stock on a stage with platforms
i can't knock it because the guy's playing to win, but i'm surprised people are whining about hbox in melee when this is significantly worse.

 

[Nah]

I feel like Dath is in a similar case as Raito. When I watch his matches, the character seems fine and demonstrates a surprising number of options. (And in Robin's case, consistent kill potential.) I think Robin, in the hands of a better player (including an improved Dath) would--like DH--become regarded as a clearly high-tier character.

What exactly is it that makes you feel that all Robin is waiting for is for a super amazing player to use her in order to be "regarded as clearly a high-tier character"?

I ask because I don't see how she will ever be anything more than a mid-tier.

 

[Das Koopa]

Also, Bayo Sonic might be the least interesting matchup in Smash 4?

"might"

 

[|RK|]

"Who's the best Bayonetta" is still the same as it always was, IMO. Zack has the best results, but Salem is capable of beating better players.

I actually wouldn't put much stock into Zack switching to Peach/Wii Fit Trainer. He does the same thing for dittos. Zack struggles against Nairo, period.

And Salem's record against Nairo is still in Salem's favor, IIRC. I'm going to (again) attribute these wins to Nairo being godlike instead of ZSS being super amazing. Every time Nairo is on, he seems to dominate his opponents. IIRC, even against ZeRo, his set wins were both 3-1. No one heralded either of those as a shift for the ZSS/Diddy or ZSS/Sheik MUs - I think this is equally as irrelevant. If the trend continues, we can talk... But this is totally player vs player, IMO.

As for MK vs Rosa - I don't think that MU has changed, tbh. I don't know if Dabuz has ever beaten Leo's Meta Knight. But, Leo really kind of gets to choose who he wants to play in that MU.

Also, ZeRo eats Clouds - IDK what we're supposed to get from that. Mr. R is likely the best Cloud vs Diddy, and from Mr. R's Twitter, Leo might agree. Remember that only... what, 4 Clouds have taken sets off of ZeRo? Tweek, Mr. R, Ned, and M2K.

Actually, the Corrin counterpick proves it more - Corrin is traditionally believed to lose to Diddy. At the top level, it really does come down to player vs player a lot, IMO. That's why it's so hard to use top level results to prove anything about an MU. Especially ZeRo, Nairo, and Ally's results imo.

Villager... DLC stands in his way. Rosa isn't a bad MU for Villager, from what I understand. Falln, perhaps joking, said Villager is extremely frustrating to fight, and if Dabuz got 3-0'd, he'd say Villager won the MU.

 

[verbatim]

"might"

Optimal Pac-Man vs WFT goes to time every time. You have two characters with bad approach games, projectiles, AND healing options. It comes down to the 50/50 of

• WFT shoots Sun Salutation (heals) at Pac-Man --> Pac-Man blocks shot with pellet (heals)

or

• WFT shoots Sun Salutation (heals) away from Pac-Man so he can't heal from it --> Pac-Man approaches

 

[NairWizard]

Im.not sure how much stock I put in the corrin bayo match there were several times cotton should have been dead and Salem did nothing instead.

I can't unsee this. Someone help

 

[TDK]

I can't unsee this. Someone help

Spoiler

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Can someone go into detail about Villager automatically losing to DLC characters? I never understood it when it gets mentioned.

Unrelated and kind of dumb, but I wonder does the "DLC" tag extend to Lucas, Ryu, and Kamui too.

 

[Minordeth]

On Leo's counterpicks - Leo has figured something out that I've heard Nairo mention as an issue. It's an issue that has been brought up here as well: when do you pick up or use a secondary?

If you have ever watched Nairo's stream, you know that he has multiple characters that are near or at tournament level. Just last night he mentioned he could most likely be confident in using his Sheik in tourney. The issue that he brings up with using most of his slew of characters is "I don't know when to use them."

Leo seems to basically run down some kind of algorithm like this amongst his sword collection: did I lose with my first pick? Yes. Okay, what tools could have made a difference? Do I need more damage conversions on hit, do I need a tipper, do I need KO confirms, etc.

I have a feeling Leo likes Corrin, for instance, because she gives him a collection of tools that he likes: the ability to hit tippers and the fear that goes with that, frame trapping, a kill throw, high damage conversions off hit, and massive aerial hit boxes. In certain situations, he seems okay with the trade in mobility and ground pokes.

I have a feeling that once Nairo (and others) figures out when to use which character, we are gonna be in for a ride of secondary joy.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So this was just posted.

It is more or less a form of tier list, I found it very interesting and somewhat reflecting the current state of our meta. If there is a new Tier List any time soon, it will probably look very similar to this.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

EDIT: An even more interesting one.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Bowserboy3]

Its common knowledge that ESAM has always been..how you would say .. been highly, some would say even unrealistically optimistic about his main.

It seems that his recent good results has once again rekindled his optimisim

Near the end of last year where ESAM made a 1.1.6 Tier list he placed Pika the most conservatively I had ever seen him. But keep in mind this was when he was in the middle of a pretty big slump for him


ESAM Tier list from Dec 2016

Now that he is getting some results He is making a MU chart like Rizen said would almost be comparable to MK in Brawl

Then again you can say he is in the minority of pro player's who does not try to downplay or underrate their main at least

ESAM also seems to base his opinions of characters on how well they do against Pikachu.

Pretty much nobody in the world thinks that Mario could be tied for best in the game.

However, Mario has a good MU against Pikachu (either that or ESAM struggles with Mario, which he outright admits; hence why he started using Samus against him), so I wonder how Mario got to be that high, huh?...

Though that was a while ago. If he still does things this way nowadays, I wonder where Bayonetta will fall to if Pikachu "beats" her (IMO, he doesn't, it's even at worst).

Is the "Mario not even top 10" thing a myth?!

---
Also, Leo stated in a recent interview that aside from a few specific MU's where he will normally opt for a specific character first (Marth for Fox for example), he usually just uses who he feels like using at that moment in time.

Failing that, he just matches similarities.

His example was "Sonic is a round ball, and Meta Knight is a round ball, so they should fight!"

We have all been viewing the game VERY wrong it would seem...

 

[|RK|]

Also, Leo stated in a recent interview that aside from a few specific MU's where he will normally opt for a specific character first (Marth for Fox for example), he usually just uses who he feels like using at that moment in time.

Failing that, he just matches similarities.

His example was "Sonic is a round ball, and Meta Knight is a round ball, so they should fight!"

We have all been viewing the game VERY wrong it would seem...

People might see it as a joke, but I genuinely believe this. How Leo picks characters shouldn't be used to show anything. The kid is a prodigy, often said to play based on feel. It's like asking Mang0 when to pick Fox or Falco pre-Tafo.

 

[Kofu]

Leo really stands out to me as a player. There are things about this game that he just seems to "get," even more than the other top players. He does things I've never seen others do. For example, the way he chases opponents down after a throw with Marth (most often on Smashville) seems absolutely terrifying and has netted him some early kills. Whereas ZeRo plays with a suffocating neutral, Leo's strength seems to lie in his advantage; he seems to be able to really get into his opponent's heads. And, while he and Captain Zack are around the same age, Leo's just so much further ahead in how he plays. I could honestly see him taking the throne from ZeRo sometime soon.

 

[|RK|]

As a Sm4sh fan, Leo is the #2 player I always imagined. Like, literally the second most dominant player, who could feasibly take the crown from #1. Now it's a pseudo-rivalry I love, even though ZeRo wrecks him in the head to head.

 

[TDK]

the biggest thing holding back Leo from being #1 is his awful record against ZeRo - 0-7 this year.

EDIT:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is a thread of every character's hurtbox when they grab the ledge, or how easy it is to hit someone on the ledge from the stage. The only really bad ones are , especially charizard, who's entire head sticks out completely. Also, Rosa's hurtbox is very small for a character of her size.

 

[Lord Dio]

the biggest thing holding back Leo from being #1 is his awful record against ZeRo - 0-7 this year.

EDIT:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is a thread of every character's hurtbox when they grab the ledge, or how easy it is to hit someone on the ledge from the stage. The only really bad ones are , especially charizard, who's entire head sticks out completely. Also, Rosa's hurtbox is very small for a character of her size.

It's the only list where ganon is top tier

 

[|RK|]

the biggest thing holding back Leo from being #1 is his awful record against ZeRo - 0-7 this year.

EDIT:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is a thread of every character's hurtbox when they grab the ledge, or how easy it is to hit someone on the ledge from the stage. The only really bad ones are , especially charizard, who's entire head sticks out completely. Also, Rosa's hurtbox is very small for a character of her size.

That and the fact that ZeRo still has better results.

---

Sonic's ledge hang is so obnoxious lol

 

[Laken64]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Someone made a top player list based on cumulative results, theres a few things missing such as wins, but it gives a decent educated guess where everyone will go (suar even likes it). Btw who do you think better this season Ally or Nario, I've been debating it in my head for a while but they seem pretty close to me though I think CEO gave nario the boost he needed.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Also, Rosa's hurtbox is very small for a character of her size.

Nah, it's her long dress that gives you the impression it's gonna be huge, when in reality she's pretty much a stick figure under that dress.

Also remember she floats and her dress is a tiny bit longer than Peach's (for comparison) because of this.

This means only her body parts are gonna have hurtboxes. Think Peach from past games.

Think of it like this; clothing and hair doesn't feel pain, so they're exempt from hurtboxes (in hair's case, characters with short hair like Bayonetta of course will have their head hurtbox cover it, but characters with long hair like Peach, Zelda or Rosalina won't have the rest of their hair covered with a hurtbox).

Unless you're DK's tie, which can apparently feel pain... still...

---
Also, at least these images prove 100% that the trunks of Mewtwo's and Charizard's tails have hurtboxes.

When do we start calling Mewtwo a real sword character?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

 

[Nu~]

lol for 4 minutes that was p accurate

 

[adom4]

the biggest thing holding back Leo from being #1 is his awful record against ZeRo - 0-7 this year.

EDIT:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is a thread of every character's hurtbox when they grab the ledge, or how easy it is to hit someone on the ledge from the stage. The only really bad ones are , especially charizard, who's entire head sticks out completely. Also, Rosa's hurtbox is very small for a character of her size.

Ganon's ledge grab is technically the lowest because his hands are in the Z axis or something.
Also DK's ledge grab is absolutely horrible as well.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Also DK's ledge grab is absolutely horrible as well.

When your tie has a f***ing hurtbox I expect the rest of the hurtbox to be equally as awful.