Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Illusion.]

Yikes, people actually saying this is a good list. Good to know you completely disregard results and MU spreads.

Roy is honestly bordering high tier

How?

 

[|RK|]

Yikes, people actually saying this is a good list. Good to know you completely disregard results and MU spreads.

I mean, the point of the list is to disregard exactly those things for opinion sake. Most anyone who makes a tier list not based on results will have wildly different placings than a results-based list.

My placings of Kirby and Sonic alone would draw fire, I know that for a fact lol

'Cuz potenshul

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I didn't mention a few things because I was trying to be brief; the point wasn't to weigh which is better, Link or Toon Link, but to demonstrate that grouping then together isn't outrageous. If Link and Toon Link are an apple and a pineapple, then everyone else is a meat, a vegetable, a dairy product... I agree with ZeRo's reasoning.

Link's grab has more range than Tinks, sure. I said Toon Link has an easier time getting the grab due to his speed and a few things ZeRo mentioned in the video, such as confirms that let him land the grab (after rewatching the video, he said Link has grab confirms too, but Tinks are easier). So its more range vs speed and easier confirms, which is why I said Tink has an easier time getting the grab.

I understand that you're trying to inform us on the differences between the two characters (and that's appreciated), but my post was deliberately stressing their similarities and contrasting them wasn't the main point; keeping it simple was the point.

So my research = ZeRo's video and preexisting knowledge of Tink's speed. Keeping it simplified was the point.

I think the point TDK was trying to make was that you can't simplify the characters. From the way TDK described it, Toon Link is more of a zoner and trapper while Link is a heavy hitting spacer. Two alike but different character archetypes. That's why you can't lump the two together. Trying to play Link like Toon Link can work but it's not the best way to play him and vice versa, they are much to different from the tactics they employ, MUs they win and lose and even stages they want to go to and avoid.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Yikes, people actually saying this is a good list. Good to know you completely disregard results and MU spreads.


How?

https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/865677444866592768
because ZeRo said so xd

But for real though, I think hes better than Corrin. Actual grounded pokes, better aerial pokes, better combo game, more threatening and immediate kill power, better grab game, better mobility, less polarizing tools, and better matchups against high/top tiers, etc

 

[FeelMeUp]

https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/865677444866592768
because ZeRo said so xd

But for real though, I think hes better than Corrin. Actual grounded pokes, better aerial pokes, better combo game, more threatening and immediate kill power, better grab game, better mobility, less polarizing tools, and better matchups against high/top tiers, etc

half of this is false

 

[Illusion.]

I love Roy, it's why I secondary him and I even think he's better than low tier.

But when I look at his mediocre results, his MU spread, and just overall him as a character, there is no way he is high tier.

 

[Nu~]

Wait, what aerial pokes does Roy have that come anywhere close to the likes of Corrin's falling nair and sh ff bair.

 

[PK Gaming]

https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/865677444866592768
because ZeRo said so xd

But for real though, I think hes better than Corrin. Actual grounded pokes, better aerial pokes, better combo game, more threatening and immediate kill power, better grab game, better mobility, less polarizing tools, and better matchups against high/top tiers, etc

What does "better aerial pokes" even mean in this context? His aerials have objectively less range and worse frame data. Immediately kill power? Roy has situational kill setups and a lack of a kill throw. Less polarizing tools? Is that even an advantage? Better matchups against high/top tiers? How so? Better combo game? Better grab game? Explain.

It almost feels like you're trying to convince yourself that Roy is better than Corrin.

 

[Bigbomb2]

Yeah I'm confused. I'm the boat that Corrin should be much higher. At this point a good tier list for me is Top 10, a lump of most everyone else, bottom 6 or so.

 

[Rizen]

People need to get out of the mindset of 'not trash=high tier'. It doesn't necessarily=mid tier.

I disagree with much of ZeRo's tier list. He obviously values defensive play based on his placings of characters like Link and Rosa. Link has no business being above characters like Greninja and should not be paired with Toon Link. DK and Bowser shouldn't either (DK's better imo). The only characters who I'd accept being paired are Marth/Lucina and the Pits.

and have completely different physics and more different moves than not. Expanding on what TDK said, TL is floaty. The two play very differently except for bomb combos. While I think Link's footsies are significantly better than TL's, if your fastest ground move is frame 7 jab (technically frame 4 dash bomb throw but that's impracticable) you get wrecked by most anyone once they infiltrate your bubble. TL is a zoner who can actually zone, Link is a footsies character who will have his wall breached.

Link's power gives him a clutch factor that does wonders with SSB4's rage and shield system but the opponent will get in. He doesn't have a good gtfo option and gets comboed hard when they do. He has trouble chasing down opponents with a lead too. This is why Link's MU spread is balanced but not lopsided for the most part; if Link can force his game he wins. If not he loses to the opponent's strong points. Fox for example wrecks when he breaches Link's defenses and Link will take 40%+ easily from Utilts and Fox's vortex. Link must constantly be spacing and playing footsies, it varies depending on the MU. Marcina require more pivots and camping because they're faster and have long swords. Other characters with less range are safe to keep at sword's length. You have to know MUs to succeed with Link.

TL can actually push an advantage. While his footsies are worse, his mobility as a zoner usually makes up for it. There are some cases where Link does better, like Mewtwo, but TL has an overall better MU spread, especially against top tiers. If you out-camp the opponent you win as long as they can't catch you. There are reasons why TL is currently ranked 2 tiers above Link; safe conversions are a big one.

 

[Krysco]

What does "better aerial pokes" even mean in this context? His aerials have objectively less range and worse frame data. Immediately kill power? Roy has situational kill setups and a lack of a kill throw. Less polarizing tools? Is that even an advantage? Better matchups against high/top tiers? How so? Better combo game? Better grab game? Explain.

It almost feels like you're trying to convince yourself that Roy is better than Corrin.

Frame data is actually somewhat similar between the 2. Both nairs start at frame 6, Corrin's fair is faster, starting at frame 7 compared to Roy's 10, bair is faster for Roy, starting at frame 8 to Corrin's 13, uair is also faster for Roy, starting at frame 5 to Corrin's 7 and then dair is faster for Corrin, starting at frame 12 to Roy's 16 though neither can exactly be considered an aerial poke.

And looking at the Roy and Corrin sections on this
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GaDXAPQJlz0AiIYSSOWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/htmlview#
Roy's nair1 is either 0 or +1 on shield drop while Corrin's is 0 (I'm guessing this is assuming landing right after the hitbox connects? Not too sure.)
Roy's fair is 0 or +2 to Corrin's -1
Roy's bair is -2 or -1 to Corrin's +1
Roy's dair is -6 to Corrin's -15 but lol dair
And Roy's uair is -2 or 0 to Corrin's -1

Roy has similar or worse numbers than Corrin at 'poking' distance. Not too familiar with Corrin but I'm willing to believe his aerials outrange Roy's outside of the obvious bair. Oh and Roy has a last ditch kill throw in uthrow though it's nothing compared to Corrin's...uthrow or dthrow, I forget which is the better killing throw.

 

[HoSmash4]

Maybe Zeros tier list is more based on 'utility' rather than matchup spread

Cloud and Bayo are the top tiers with the most rep, DK/bowser have a Counterpick niche, Greninja whilst being strong doesn't really do particularly well vs any top tiers

Just a suggestion.

 

[Laken64]

Oh and Roy has a last ditch kill throw in uthrow though it's nothing compared to Corrin's...uthrow or dthrow, I forget which is the better killing throw.

Up throw is better for killing, down dthrow can kill but not as effectively as upthrow even though it has more base knockback, it you can easily di it due to the long animation, from what I see Frozen and Ryuga don't use down throw at all while Cosmos uses it for damage (9.5% lol) and to gain breathing space though Forward and back throw can do that as well.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

What does "better aerial pokes" even mean in this context? His aerials have objectively less range and worse frame data. Immediately kill power? Roy has situational kill setups and a lack of a kill throw. Less polarizing tools? Is that even an advantage? Better matchups against high/top tiers? How so? Better combo game? Better grab game? Explain.

It almost feels like you're trying to convince yourself that Roy is better than Corrin.

Roy's Grab game is significantly better than Corrin's. He doesn't have an amazing stock cap like Corrin's Up Throw, but his down Throw and F-Throw are significantly better for tech chasing, 50 / 50s, and comboing, though both Throws effectiveness at comboing really depends on weight. Characters like Fox and Pikachu get wrecked by his throw combos, but others such as Bowser are completely unfazed.

Wait, what aerial pokes does Roy have that come anywhere close to the likes of Corrin's falling nair and sh ff bair.

Cross-up Nair and U-Air are the main ones. Though I feel the main advantages of Roy's poking game come from his grounded options, with really safe moves like F-Tilt, D-Tilt and Jab.

 

[|RK|]

ESAM is explaining why ZSS sucks (as a top tier) on his stream rn. I implore y'all to tune in.

twitch.tv/trixiesam

 

[Ziodyne 21]

What does everyone think about ZeRo's placement and comments about ZSS in his tier list. I am not sure about being as high as #6 . He was right about the "Zero Suit" factor still being strong after her nerfs. She may not be the most consistient character in neutral. But she can be explosive as hell with or with rage.
As ZeRo learned at Civil War. you could think you are winning the set but a good ZSS cam get one good conversion at the right time and she will literally boot your butt into oblivion with a up-air to Boost Kick combo or a well-timed Flip Kick spike off a D-Smasj or even N-air

I dont agree with ZeRo that it absolves her bad MU's or flaws. But Nairo and Marss are still showing she is a force to be reckoned with

 

[Bowserboy3]

According to ESAM, ZSS supposedly sucks as a top tier, yet is consistently one of the highest placers/most likely to appear in top 8 in tournaments worldwide.

Meanwhile, characters like Pikachu are apparently top tier when he fails to even top 16 at most events, again, worldwide.

This is why I cannot trust ESAM.



He makes good points about ZSS's weaknesses, but he's blowing them way out of proportion. If her weaknesses were really that crippling I'd expect her results to be more like, for example, Pikachu's.

But oh, they aren't; they trump them in every way possible.

Work that one out.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well ESAM's recent Pika MU chart he is making would make the likes of Sheik or Cloud jealous ..

Then again ESAM being ..how should I say..
overly optimistic about Pikachu is yesterdays news at this point

How many Majors has Pikachu won, or 2 Pika mains getting top 8 at S-Tier competions has Pikachu won recently?

 

[PK Gaming]

According to ESAM, ZSS supposedly sucks as a top tier, yet is consistently one of the highest placers/most likely to appear in top 8 in tournaments worldwide.

Meanwhile, characters like Pikachu are apparently top tier when he fails to even top 16 at most events, again, worldwide.

This is why I cannot trust ESAM.



He makes good points about ZSS's weaknesses, but he's blowing them way out of proportion. If her weaknesses were really that crippling I'd expect her results to be more like, for example, Pikachu's.

But oh, they aren't; they trump them in every way possible.

Work that one out.

It's a pretty blatant double standard. He can gloss over Pikachu's issues by saying things like "I'm not playing the character to its fullest", which is a courtesy he doesn't extend to ZSS apparently. Empirically, ZSS does better than Pikachu and she's got some of the best players backing her in her corner, so her potential is high as well.

To be honest, I will never see as her short of top tier because of her terrifying KO ability. Her ability to kill you at ludicrously low % must always be respected.

 

[TDK]

I didn't mention a few things because I was trying to be brief; the point wasn't to weigh which is better, Link or Toon Link, but to demonstrate that grouping then together isn't outrageous. If Link and Toon Link are an apple and a pineapple, then everyone else is a meat, a vegetable, a dairy product... I agree with ZeRo's reasoning.

Link's grab has more range than Tinks, sure. I said Toon Link has an easier time getting the grab due to his speed and a few things ZeRo mentioned in the video, such as confirms that let him land the grab (after rewatching the video, he said Link has grab confirms too, but Tinks are easier). So its more range vs speed and easier confirms, which is why I said Tink has an easier time getting the grab.

I understand that you're trying to inform us on the differences between the two characters (and that's appreciated), but my post was deliberately stressing their similarities and contrasting them wasn't the main point; keeping it simple was the point.

So my research = ZeRo's video and preexisting knowledge of Tink's speed. Keeping it simplified was the point.

No, you missed my point. I appreciate your brevity, but treating Link and Tink as similar enough to be grouped together in a tier list (Using your first post, you said they were a Pit/Dark Pit grouping) is honestly stupid and shows you have no understanding of the character beyond the surface.

In fact, let's try something:


Yeah, Pac-Man is faster than Ganondorf... but Ganondorf is stronger. Trade off. Yeah Pac-man's Neutral B is "better" ... but Ganon's Side-B is better. So Ganon has an easier time getting the grab... but Pac-Man gets more off of grabs. I think people get caught up with focusing on Pac-Man's speed that they click the "check all" button Pac-Man is now vastly better in every way.

I barely changed anything other than the character and move names used, and using your words I've now made a comparison of two characters who are nothing alike and it's just as good as your Link/TL comparison. This works because your comparison is so shallow that it could apply to any two characters, regardless of how similar they are, just by knowing basic things about the characters.

Please, if you're going to talk about any characters, make an effort to go beyond the surface.

 

[|RK|]

According to ESAM, ZSS supposedly sucks as a top tier, yet is consistently one of the highest placers/most likely to appear in top 8 in tournaments worldwide.

Meanwhile, characters like Pikachu are apparently top tier when he fails to even top 16 at most events, again, worldwide.

This is why I cannot trust ESAM.



He makes good points about ZSS's weaknesses, but he's blowing them way out of proportion. If her weaknesses were really that crippling I'd expect her results to be more like, for example, Pikachu's.

But oh, they aren't; they trump them in every way possible.

Work that one out.

The point is because people do dumb things against ZSS. Remember that a top level player in Locus had no idea how to even DI boost kick when he beat Nairo.

Elegant's neutral get up lost him 4 stocks at Nairo Saga (two trumps, two dsmash punishes). He could have won that set otherwise. This is the issue with looking at results alone. Yeah, ZSS has amazing results, but it's mostly because Nairo (and Marss) are incredibly talented players. That and people still do dumb things against her.

Bad weaknesses don't necessarily mean they're obvious. There's a reason many ZSS players think she sucks. You can see the stuff that goes well, but not necessarily the things that really shouldn't have gone well.

That all said, ESAM thinks she's somewhere between 10-15 (15 at worst). Not bad, but not even close to broken.

 

[Rizen]

The point is because people do dumb things against ZSS. Remember that a top level player in Locus had no idea how to even DI boost kick when he beat Nairo.

Elegant's neutral get up lost him 4 stocks at Nairo Saga (two trumps, two dsmash punishes). He could have won that set otherwise. This is the issue with looking at results alone. Yeah, ZSS has amazing results, but it's mostly because Nairo (and Marss) are incredibly talented players. That and people still do dumb things against her.

Bad weaknesses don't necessarily mean they're obvious. There's a reason many ZSS players think she sucks. You can see the stuff that goes well, but not necessarily the things that really shouldn't have gone well.

That all said, ESAM thinks she's somewhere between 10-15 (15 at worst). Not bad, but not even close to broken.

IMO ZSS is top 10, about as good as Mewtwo. in the 10-15 range you have Marcina, Ryu, MK; I think she's closer to Mewtwo. 10-15 isn't outrageous for ZSS but she undeniably scores better, consistently.

PS
Top tier players always think their character sucks.

 

[FeelMeUp]

esam's explanations for why pikachu wins a matchup are usually some combination of:
1. pika's really small/pancakes
2. i can edgeguard you
3. i can camp you with the lead
not sure how people hadn't noticed this trend over the course of 3 matchup charts
paying attention to what he thinks of the character is an honest waste of time. He will never fully admit to pika's crippling issues like lacking range, being a poor ledgetrapper, having trouble converting edgeguards to death against actual good characters, and a low damage output.

 

[PK Gaming]

The point is because people do dumb things against ZSS. Remember that a top level player in Locus had no idea how to even DI boost kick when he beat Nairo.

Elegant's neutral get up lost him 4 stocks at Nairo Saga (two trumps, two dsmash punishes). He could have won that set otherwise. This is the issue with looking at results alone. Yeah, ZSS has amazing results, but it's mostly because Nairo (and Marss) are incredibly talented players. That and people still do dumb things against her.

Bad weaknesses don't necessarily mean they're obvious. There's a reason many ZSS players think she sucks. You can see the stuff that goes well, but not necessarily the things that really shouldn't have gone well.

That all said, ESAM thinks she's somewhere between 10-15 (15 at worst). Not bad, but not even close to broken.

I don't agree with some of your logic. It can be difficulty to properly DI boost kick in the heat of the moment, especially if you haven't practiced in advance. Relying on hypothetical scenarios or the fact that "people do dumb things against her" to discount a character's success is also a bad idea, since you can use it to justify literally any argument. Regardless of the circumstances, people are losing to Nairo's ZSS. And it's likely that people will continue to lose to Nairo's ZSS in the foreseeable future.

 

[|RK|]

I don't agree with some of your logic. It can be difficulty to properly DI boost kick in the heat of the moment, especially if you haven't practiced in advance. Relying on hypothetical scenarios or the fact that "people do dumb things against her" to discount a character's success is also a bad idea, since you can use it to justify literally any argument. Regardless of the circumstances, people are losing to Nairo's ZSS. And it's likely that people will continue to lose to Nairo's ZSS in the foreseeable future.

You just hold down though. You don't really have to practice, the move takes ages to complete. And all you have to do is not regular getup against ZSS. You save yourself that much more stocks. So there goes a couple of ways to not die early, right off the bat. DI away from platforms is harder to get, but that part is doable with some practice.

And people will continue losing to Nairo's anything. He's a godlike player. People losing to him means little to nothing about his character.

 

[TDK]

Game Fest SV 2017 (El Salvador) (104 Entrants)

1st: Vanitas
2nd: Flury
3rd: Tron
4th: Wolfen
5th: Green
5th: Hatreck
7th: Grid
7th: Cormene

 

[Sinister Slush]

I would like to hear more about .

The character was hyped to an incredible amount (peep this for comedy) yet his supposed amazing toolset never quite played out in practice, and despite a large playerbase he's never really found time in the spotlight.

Why do y'all think this is the case, beyond standard reasons like "He gets eaten by Cloud and Bayonetta!" etc.

Since you've had some responses already bout Yoshi I'll target the MU part at the end instead.
I mean, to be fair Cloud/Bayo are pretty big reasons to a viability of a character. Characters in brawl basically had their current tier list spot solely based on their MU against Meta Knight due to how meta he was in Brawl (no pun intended). The game is slowly headed in that direction with the top 2 at least.

Pretty much all the current top 10 in the world either has a pocket cloud or bayo on deck ready at any moment, not like a Yoshi will ever go deep enough in bracket to meet them tippy top players, but it's more of an example of how prevalent and common those two in particular are at big regionals or nationals/majors.
If you wanna go deep in bracket as Yoshi you gotta get through some mid level cloud/bayo's and that's either all bracket luck to avoid them or hope you can snag a set win since >2 stocks.


Also Yoshi has the Rosalina/Peach effect where you can just pick MK to CP for a free win too, people like to go on about how MK decimates peach/rosa (which is true) due to those two being deeper in brackets at majors/nationals so that MU gets seen more often.
Although people tend to forget he can do the same thing to another handful of characters and Yoshi unfortunately is one of those. At the same time though why use MK when Cloud/Bayo can get the job done easier.

Diddy and Marcina another combo that hurts Yoshi, everything else can be worked around for even or a slight +1 match up but in this game and 2 stock that barely matters especially since Yoshi doesn't have anything insanely broken about him. He's like the pit bros with being an all around good character with the most "broken" thing about him to the common for glory player is his DJ armor and Dair but otherwise he isn't scary to fight.

imo people don't always appreciate how badly characters with tether and tether-like grabs are hurt by the slower frame data.

Villager would be an clear top tier if they had a regular grab (jab -> grab would true combo, just to give an example).

Pac-Man/Yoshi would get significantly better as well. I'm sure BJR would appreciate the boost but it honestly seems like he's got a bunch of different issues, whereas a normal grab would pretty much fix all of Pac-Man/Yoshi's (Yoshi still has a susceptible recovery, but that seems like it was intended from a design standpoint).

I wouldn't mind the endlag for all his grabs if he got 1. Good damage off pummels (even pac-man gets 3 every pummel) 2. Good damage from throws (especially if they killed) since he has marth level of throw damage (doesn't exist basically) 3. They led into a guaranteed kill setup instead of hoping people have bad/no DI to get Dthrow Uair off.

Even straying away from the grab Yoshi has a lot of other inherent problems anyways but grab game is definitely one big one. When will his Bair be an actual move, I use that move so little in this game I genuinely forget other characters have a bair.

 

[blackghost]

I feel like zss, bayo, and (to a smaller extent) ryu are all part of the category "players don't truly know how to fight" this leads to inflated results and a huge despricency in tournament results and often in bracket comes down to which players end up in my more so than brackets. When I watch match reviews normally ninjalink and Dabuz, and I hear them asking why top players don't know the di on top tier characters it really makes me question the commitment of some players to be better.
If bayo and zss truly are these elite characters it's the communities job to get better against them. Those two do similar things in neutral and try to exploit similar weaknesses not just in there opponents character but also in their opponents playstyle.

 

[ぱみゅ]

When I watch match reviews normally ninjalink and Dabuz, and I hear them asking why top players don't know the di on top tier characters it really makes me question the commitment of some players to be better.

Small comment on this, but most people play this game not to be better; instead we play to win (I'll say "we" trying not to offend anyone in this broad statement).
That means we may make tons of mistakes, not know all the specifics of what we're doing or what we could improve at. As long as we get the victory, the rest might not even matter.

 

[NairWizard]

The one thing that frustrates me beyond anything else is how people get so personally invested in discussions about their characters. You'll notice people who believe that their character is better or worse than popular perception hitting that "Like" button or agreeing with posts in support of their position even if the logic contained in those posts is completely bull**** or evidently fallacious. Main bias is the worst thing about having a discussion with anyone about this game. It's honestly so disappointing seeing it page after page after page, years after the game came out.

Yeah, cool, you main your character, love your character, know a lot about your character, fine, we get it. That experience and love should be leveraged for the greater good of community understanding, and bringing that perspective to analysis is not only acceptable but encouraged. But don't let it blind you to objective reality. Like, good God, these are pixels on a screen. You don't need to call ZeRo's entire tier list garbage just because the premises set by the list don't set up your main for an agreeable position. Similarly, you don't need to praise the list because it did put your character in the right spot, as though it's some kind of personal victory.

This post was aimed at no one in particular, and also at everyone in particular.

 

[my_T]

And people will continue losing to Nairo's anything. He's a godlike player. People losing to him means little to nothing about his character.

Do you really think this? I can't bring myself to believe that it's just Nairos skill alone with Nairo being so dominant against Rosa and especially Mario. Last I checked neither Ally nor Anti have managed to take a set off of Nairos ZSS; not with Mario at least. People seem to forget this when discussing these characters. ZSS's strengths are clearly highlighted in these MU's.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

The one thing that frustrates me beyond anything else is how people get so personally invested in discussions about their characters. You'll notice people who believe that their character is better or worse than popular perception hitting that "Like" button or agreeing with posts in support of their position even if the logic contained in those posts is completely bull**** or evidently fallacious. Main bias is the worst thing about having a discussion with anyone about this game. It's honestly so disappointing seeing it page after page after page, years after the game came out.

Yeah, cool, you main your character, love your character, know a lot about your character, fine, we get it. That experience and love should be leveraged for the greater good of community understanding, and bringing that perspective to analysis is not only acceptable but encouraged. But don't let it blind you to objective reality. Like, good God, these are pixels on a screen. You don't need to call ZeRo's entire tier list garbage just because the premises set by the list don't set up your main for an agreeable position. Similarly, you don't need to praise the list because it did put your character in the right spot, as though it's some kind of personal victory.

This post was aimed at no one in particular, and also at everyone in particular.

I'm not a super religious person but AMEN!
Now i'm not going to say I don't do the same thing as a zard main being a character loyalist.
However everything that was said is completely true.
People who main a character go bonkers when a player puts up a list they don't agree with.
I've had an extended argument with another poster with my argument paraphrased as 'We don't use a single top players' opinion as the end-all, be-all when it comes to where a character specifically fits on a tier-list'
The sad thing is to some people the words of top-level players are essentially god.
Nevermind that we've discussed the ways top players could be very wrong multiple times and that in most cases it's just a top-players OPINION, it isn't FACT.
Still allow other people to take it as a personal insult or self-gratification when some top-level player makes a tier-list aimed at noone in particular.

 

[The-Technique]

Do you really think this? I can't bring myself to believe that it's just Nairos skill alone with Nairo being so dominant against Rosa and especially Mario. Last I checked neither Ally nor Anti have managed to take a set off of Nairos ZSS; not with Mario at least. People seem to forget this when discussing these characters. ZSS's strengths are clearly highlighted in these MU's.

Ally has taken some sets, but their overall set record is heavily favored towards Nairo.

 

[my_T]

Ally has taken some sets, but their overall set record is heavily favored towards Nairo.

You're right. I just checked. Ally has only taken one set with Mario though.

 

[|RK|]

Do you really think this? I can't bring myself to believe that it's just Nairos skill alone with Nairo being so dominant against Rosa and especially Mario. Last I checked neither Ally nor Anti have managed to take a set off of Nairos ZSS; not with Mario at least. People seem to forget this when discussing these characters. ZSS's strengths are clearly highlighted in these MU's.

I mean, Marth is consistently put as 11th in the tier list. Ally and ANTi haven't beaten Leo's Marth either. Doesn't make Marth as good as the characters above him.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Greninja whilst being strong doesn't really do particularly well vs any top tiers

If we're going by the logic of ZeRo's list, he does have Luigi.

not sure how people hadn't noticed this trend over the course of 3 matchup charts
paying attention to what he thinks of the character is an honest waste of time. He will never fully admit to pika's crippling issues like lacking range, being a poor ledgetrapper, having trouble converting edgeguards to death against actual good characters, and a low damage output.

Lack of ledge trapping doesn't sound that big of a weakness when you already have a Top 5 edge guarding game. And what exactly do you mean by "converting edgeguards into kills?

Plus #ESAMsOpinions, m8.

 

[FeelMeUp]

If we're going by the logic of ZeRo's list, he does have Luigi.



Lack of ledge trapping doesn't sound that big of a weakness when you already have a Top 5 edge guarding game. And what exactly do you mean by "converting edgeguards into kills?

Plus #ESAMsOpinions, m8.

Characters like Bayo, Marth and MK consistently convert their edgeguards into death.
Characters like Pikachu, Sheik, and Pit tend to get high amounts of damage but won't kill you off their edgeguards.

and yeah, it is a pretty big weakness. Ledgetrapping is far more important than edgeguarding in this game and most of the good characters shine when pinning you at the ledge and restricting your options.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Characters like Bayo, Marth and MK consistently convert their edgeguards into death.
Characters like Pikachu, Sheik, and Pit tend to get high amounts of damage but won't kill you off their edgeguards.

and yeah, it is a pretty big weakness. Ledgetrapping is far more important than edgeguarding in this game and most of the good characters shine when pinning you at the ledge and restricting your options.

Even then, it's not that bad.

 

[my_T]

I'm still not seeing how Sonic is overrated. I need a detailed explanation.

He has answers to shielding with his grab. KEN lands a lot of grabs with Sonic so I don't know where some of you get this idea that you can just shield against him. Two solid aerials (fair and bair) that are good at contesting the opponent in the air. Spin dash and Spin charge both have intangibility frames. Spin dash can be cancelled. Spin charge is significantly faster than spin dash. Then you have his ground speed which makes it easy for him to close the distance thus making it very difficult to properly space against him while simultaneously making it easy for him to retreat if he needs to do so.

His advantage state is pretty good. Can rack up damage off of grabs and spin dash/charge. The only thing he's really lacking in advantage are low risk kill options that kill early.

His disadvantage is pretty solid but is also a bit stage dependent. He can mix up his landings with things like Spring, Spin shot, Spin charge and Spin dash. His recovery is also pretty good aside from his up B not having a hitbox. His disadvantage is decent on stages with no platforms. On stages with platforms it's significantly better.

He has a really good MU spread. He has results. He has good wins on top 15 players in the world and his loses are almost always at the hand of a top 15 player.

How is he overrated?

EDIT: And he has an 11 frame dash length. That's kinda silly for a character with his ground mobility.

 

[Nu~]

The one thing that frustrates me beyond anything else is how people get so personally invested in discussions about their characters. You'll notice people who believe that their character is better or worse than popular perception hitting that "Like" button or agreeing with posts in support of their position even if the logic contained in those posts is completely bull**** or evidently fallacious. Main bias is the worst thing about having a discussion with anyone about this game. It's honestly so disappointing seeing it page after page after page, years after the game came out.

Yeah, cool, you main your character, love your character, know a lot about your character, fine, we get it. That experience and love should be leveraged for the greater good of community understanding, and bringing that perspective to analysis is not only acceptable but encouraged. But don't let it blind you to objective reality. Like, good God, these are pixels on a screen. You don't need to call ZeRo's entire tier list garbage just because the premises set by the list don't set up your main for an agreeable position. Similarly, you don't need to praise the list because it did put your character in the right spot, as though it's some kind of personal victory.

This post was aimed at no one in particular, and also at everyone in particular.

B-B-but...I grew up with those pixels

Yea, I see what you mean. I think the reason why this happens so often in smash 4 is a combination of smash being an amalgamation of everyone's childhood video game heroes (Crash not being in smash yet is a travesty tho *grumble grumble*) and the fact that smash 4 is such a well balanced fighter. Comparatively, anyway.

Peeps don't wanna believe that their favorite childhood character is actually quite flawed in a game *supposed* to be super well balanced.