Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Nathan Richardson]

https://twitter.com/Dath_ly/status/866834908349693952

Dath posted a matchup chart on Robin. Surprisingly optimistic even despite most of Robin's matchup's being listed here as unfavorable, only slight disadvantage against Sheik, Cloud, and Bayonetta.

Personally I don't think Bowser is THAT free, or Little Mac and Lucario beating Robin, also I don't think Robin struggles too hard against Mario (just me tho, also didn't Dath beat ANTi) but besides that I mostly agree with these matchups.

Yeeeah, being a zard main I disagree wholeheartedly on zard's placement on this tier list.
Yes Robin can wall zard out with projectiles and get easy combos with arcfire and arcthunder....but ONLY with arcfire and arcthunder and if it's not on FD forget it. Zard has a better dash and walk speed than Robin and even though robin can spams projectiles until he loses his book zard can cancel those out with flamethrower. Does Robin have better aerials and pokes than zard? Yes, with levin sword, which he loses if he overuses it forcing robin to play resource management every step of the fight with zard who doesn't have to worry about that with things like Rock Smash and fly super armoring through a lot of Robin's moves.
Heck even Robin's GRAB RANGE is in zard's favor. Zard outranges Robin with his grab move so when Robin tries to move in for Checkmate zard can dash grab, pivot grab, or just straight up grab Robin and reset the neutral. Anyone with frame data want to add in their two cents?

 

[|RK|]

Yeeeah, being a zard main I disagree wholeheartedly on zard's placement on this tier list.
Yes Robin can wall zard out with projectiles and get easy combos with arcfire and arcthunder....but ONLY with arcfire and arcthunder and if it's not on FD forget it. Zard has a better dash and walk speed than Robin and even though robin can spams projectiles until he loses his book zard can cancel those out with flamethrower. Does Robin have better aerials and pokes than zard? Yes, with levin sword, which he loses if he overuses it forcing robin to play resource management every step of the fight with zard who doesn't have to worry about that with things like Rock Smash and fly super armoring through a lot of Robin's moves.
Heck even Robin's GRAB RANGE is in zard's favor. Zard outranges Robin with his grab move so when Robin tries to move in for Checkmate zard can dash grab, pivot grab, or just straight up grab Robin and reset the neutral. Anyone with frame data want to add in their two cents?

You're kinda proving Dath's point, tbh. Walls him out with the only two projectiles he'll use, fast books cancelled by a slow flamethrower (I'd just shield, tbh), better aerials, and Zard would contest with laggy/easily baited moves? Resource management is the name of Robin's game. It sounds like Robin wins pretty easily. As for the last point - Arcthunder will confirm into grab, so Robin doesn't necessarily need to dash into Charizard's grab range.

 

[The-Technique]

Yeeeah, being a zard main I disagree wholeheartedly on zard's placement on this tier list.
Yes Robin can wall zard out with projectiles and get easy combos with arcfire and arcthunder....but ONLY with arcfire and arcthunder and if it's not on FD forget it. Zard has a better dash and walk speed than Robin and even though robin can spams projectiles until he loses his book zard can cancel those out with flamethrower. Does Robin have better aerials and pokes than zard? Yes, with levin sword, which he loses if he overuses it forcing robin to play resource management every step of the fight with zard who doesn't have to worry about that with things like Rock Smash and fly super armoring through a lot of Robin's moves.
Heck even Robin's GRAB RANGE is in zard's favor. Zard outranges Robin with his grab move so when Robin tries to move in for Checkmate zard can dash grab, pivot grab, or just straight up grab Robin and reset the neutral. Anyone with frame data want to add in their two cents?

Robin doesn't have to do anything crazy when it comes to Charizard, and I think many people who are less experienced with using Robin overstate her need to manage resources. Losing a sword or a book pretty much gives Robin the following: an extra projectile, a random hitbox that pops out of Robin, and ridiculously potent shield pressure tool.

Grab range is an issue for all matchups, but no decent Robin is just going to desperately dash in to land one, that's why Robin has all these moves that trap people in shield or force defensive options like rolling.

Also I mean like...are you really going to just throw out Fly to maybe super armor an aerial? I can only see that being viable if you're in the lead and Robin is at KO percent, otherwise that's a free punish.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm true I'm glad we're discussing this but even if the moves are laggy doesn't make them nonviable in the matchup. Thing is neither character has tools needed to approach the other. Zard is a bait and punish character mainly typically using a tilt or two to apply pressure and hammering on an opponents shield with flamethrower or rock smash to force them to make a move.
Robin meanwhile will wall out as best he/she can with the two projectiles they have, one has a static number of charges while the other one depends on how long it's charged.
What i'm saying though is zard isn't a free match for Robin by any means especially if there's platforms (if zard is camping and you try to throw out a projectile zard can duck under it or jump over it with the platform's help) On top of that Robin WANTS zard to approach because their own approach is just as bad if not worse which is why they need to hold their opponent in place with arcfire or arcthunder so they can make their move.
60:40 maybe but I think if all's the same it's even since zard outpaces Robin on the ground and Robin has Zard with projectiles and combos from those projectiles if zard doesn't dash into shield then roll.

 

[TDK]

Luhtie and Cosmos have been fully funded for 2GGC: Nairo Saga. Twi is next on the Naifu fund.

And vote here for other ZSS players (Vote Mistake!):

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/867882133175451648
https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/867882043425697792

 

[Vyrnx]

Bowser's jab is ranged and disjointed with very low FAF on both parts... jab 2 has to be the least laggy jab combo finisher in the game. It's been well established as one of the best boxing moves since 3ds days. DK's jab has pitiful hitstun when not tippered and his jab is significantly laggier. Bowser's jab is several tiers better.

There are different types of jabs that serve different functions. Jabs like Luigi's or Mac's will interrupt stuff, Falcon's will cover multiple options while being all around very solid, and many jabs are f3 or less moves that serve to beat out grabs. Other jabs might make some attempt to serve a unique purpose like Zelda's as an anti approach, but Bowser's jab is by far the best jab for straight up boxing which is why you will occasionally see it listed as one of the best jabs despite not being able to do the same things that, say, Falcon's can.

 

[TDK]

Typo House Lab Sm4sh weekly of 05/25/17 (69 Entrants) (Georgia)

1st: Komorikiri
2nd: Fatality
3rd: RFang
4th: Ranai

 

[ARISTOS]

Typo House Lab Sm4sh weekly of 05/25/17 (69 Entrants) (Georgia)

1st: Komorikiri
2nd: Fatality
3rd: RFang
4th: Ranai

RFang is a Mario, not a Cloud

 

[The-Technique]

Typo House Lab Sm4sh weekly of 05/25/17 (69 Entrants) (Georgia)

1st: Komorikiri
2nd: Fatality
3rd: RFang
4th: Ranai

where did Wrath, Kamameme, Hyper, and Lord Mix place at?

 

[Yonder]

Typo House Lab Sm4sh weekly of 05/25/17 (69 Entrants) (Georgia)

1st: Komorikiri
2nd: Fatality
3rd: RFang
4th: Ranai

Lab is right, look at the new Shulk Komo busted out -

ANOTHER Lucina? Tell me this ain't a meme at this point. Ahh well, I guess a man has two pockets in his jeans.

Edit: jeans have 4 pockets...joke doesn't work now.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Ranai has had a Lucina since like forever.

 

[Luigi player]

Bowser's jab is several tiers better.

Whoa. This shows you don't know enough about DKs jabs.
Maybe Bowsers are better, but not several tiers.

Do you know how good it is to have such long ranged jabs as DK has, cupled with their speed?
Speed does matter. And it matters a lot, especially for jabs who are mostly gtfo moves if the opponent is coming too close or trying to get a grab or whatever. Bowsers do an alright job at keeping the opponent out, but you have to throw them out a littler earlier than with others because they're slower. Though they also have great range to make that up a little bit (of course their cooldown is really good too).

DKs jabs overall got less range than they had in Brawl, which is kinda sad. But they still have nice range (also upwards! though they don't poke through BF platforms anymore sadly :\) and are fairly quick. They can still outspace even tilts of characters, which makes them a scary tool to deal with. And even if they don't have invincible parts they're good enough to hit through when they should most of the time. The closer range sucks if the opponent is at lower % because it won't combo and they can just shield and punish.

What really puts the icing on the cake for DKs jabs though is the tipper which pulls people in.
Getting free grabs out of this is really amazing and basically extends DKs grabrange a little bit.
Ever wanted to shieldgrab/grab the opponent, but they're just out of (the already huge grab-) range? Just jab and pull them in, then grab them.
At the 100s tipper jab can also confirm into utilt for nice early kills if the opponent is out of Ding Dong percent.

 

[Goombo]

Last I checked, G&W destroys robin. Forces him to approach because bucket + duck

Keep in mind Robin will just get a tome in hand (which beats bucket as a physical projectile) and get the thundercharge level she wants if G&W refuses to approach her.




I never thought of the Robin - Sheik Match as particulary troublesome. Reckless needles will trade with Elthunder, Sheiks aerial approaches are problematic due to Levin Fairs range plus she gets fastfaller comboed and dies stupidly early to checkmate and aerials. That said, disadvantage against Sheik is ... unpleasant.
45-55 seems about right to me.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Gotta review probability, boys. That ain't how it works.
You can flip a coin 200 times and never get heads.
Similarly, you can dtilt someone with Ness 8 times and have none of them trip. It's just unlikely.

You changed your avatar!

I was confused for a moment, I liked your other one D: (but this one is just as good, ngl)

---

Also, I don't think Robin:Marth is as bad as Dath makes it out to be.

Robin having actual usable autocancels for the most part makes things a lot trickier in the air for Marth, despite Marth's aerial startup frame data being better.

I think the tip (when the pun works for both characters ) is getting around Arcfire, Elthunder and Arcthunder safely. Marth's grounded buttons are better than Robin's, and it's about getting him into a corner without committing too much, such as with an aerial. Robin can't do much to challenge Jab and Dtilt, sometimes Ftilt when backed into a corner.

But like any character with a confirm from a grab, they can go from losing to being in the lead in an instant, so Robin isn't really out of any MU if he's successfully tacking on damage.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I never thought of the Robin - Sheik Match as particulary troublesome. Reckless needles will trade with Elthunder, Sheiks aerial approaches are problematic due to Levin Fairs range plus she gets fastfaller comboed and dies stupidly early to checkmate and aerials. That said, disadvantage against Sheik is ... unpleasant.
45-55 seems about right to me.

sheik can play either hyper aggro or campy and whiff punish focused yet still be in full control the entire match
crouch+needles abuses robin's ganon tier mobility and forces approaches on a character that isn't meant to do so. single needle interrupts charging completely and sometimes ****s up the shots enough to where robin loses the charge completely. so he gets camped dumb hard overall and can't do a ton to counteract it. thankfully, levin uair at higher percents to catch Sheik trying to BF out of corners makes needle camping more risky.
but robin can't land and has **** off ledge, oos, and recovery options. getting hit once as robin means you might be stuck in disadvantage as long as a heavy.

levin fair is likely the best fair in the game without factoring in the jumpsquat, but sheik shouldn't be getting most of her openings vs robin out of jumps anyway. double/triple fair makes this too big a risk just like it does against ryu. aside from that she can bully robin in neutral with the same hyper aggro style you use against fatties except he doesn't even have the gigantic grab range that makes you fear him.
blank plays Dath a lot and says it's a bit like fighting a less threatening, sword wielding DK that you can camp harder and take less damage from in grounded interactions. except he chucks nonthreatening projectiles and punishes jumpins WAY harder.

this is one of the more viewable mid tier vs top tier matchups out there because blank and masterraven both fight dath often, so we don't have to use as much "on paper" and can instead take to videos. i'm sure you're well-versed enough, but watching a single game should be a real good reminder of how badly sheik usually has to mess up to actually get hit by robin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB-ujNBG0LA

tl;dr robin should only be winning if the sheik's making a lot of mistakes/lacking mu experience or getting punished for nearly every jump choice.

also, robin sux :3

 

[The-Technique]

You changed your avatar!

I was confused for a moment, I liked your other one D: (but this one is just as good, ngl)

---

Also, I don't think Robin:Marth is as bad as Dath makes it out to be.

Robin having actual usable autocancels for the most part makes things a lot trickier in the air for Marth, despite Marth's aerial startup frame data being better.

I think the tip (when the pun works for both characters ) is getting around Arcfire, Elthunder and Arcthunder safely. Marth's grounded buttons are better than Robin's, and it's about getting him into a corner without committing too much, such as with an aerial. Robin can't do much to challenge Jab and Dtilt, sometimes Ftilt when backed into a corner.

But like any character with a confirm from a grab, they can go from losing to being in the lead in an instant, so Robin isn't really out of any MU if he's successfully tacking on damage.

Yeah that's another thing I disagreed with. The matchup is similar to how Shulk plays against Marth, its hard if you're just jumping into Marth and getting swatted away by his faster normals, but if you don't play the game Marth wants, then Robin can make his life hell with carefully placed projectiles and aerials.

At the very least it shouldn't be classified as a matchup that's harder than Sheik and Bayonetta, like hell I would rather fight 1000 Marths than fight 1 Sheik as Robin.

 

[Goombo]

sheik can play either hyper aggro or campy and whiff punish focused yet still be in full control the entire match
crouch+needles abuses robin's ganon tier mobility and forces approaches on a character that isn't meant to do so. single needle interrupts charging completely and sometimes ****s up the shots enough to where robin loses the charge completely. so he gets camped dumb hard overall and can't do a ton to counteract it. thankfully, levin uair at higher percents to catch Sheik trying to BF out of corners makes needle camping more risky.
but robin can't land and has **** off ledge, oos, and recovery options. getting hit once as robin means you might be stuck in disadvantage as long as a heavy.

levin fair is likely the best fair in the game without factoring in the jumpsquat, but sheik shouldn't be getting most of her openings vs robin out of jumps anyway. double/triple fair makes this too big a risk just like it does against ryu. aside from that she can bully robin in neutral with the same hyper aggro style you use against fatties except he doesn't even have the gigantic grab range that makes you fear him.
blank plays Dath a lot and says it's a bit like fighting a less threatening, sword wielding DK that you can camp harder and take less damage from in grounded interactions. except he chucks nonthreatening projectiles and punishes jumpins WAY harder.

this is one of the more viewable mid tier vs top tier matchups out there because blank and masterraven both fight dath often, so we don't have to use as much "on paper" and can instead take to videos. i'm sure you're well-versed enough, but watching a single game should be a real good reminder of how badly sheik usually has to mess up to actually get hit by robin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB-ujNBG0LA

tl;dr robin should only be winning if the sheik's making a lot of mistakes/lacking mu experience or getting punished for nearly every jump choice.

also, robin sux :3

Very nice post overall.
I seriously wasn't aware of crouching El-/Arcthunder. That definitely changes things up a bit.

Also Robin is still a good high mid tier

 

[JB333]

where did Wrath, Kamameme, Hyper, and Lord Mix place at?

Hyper and Salt One placed 5th, Wrath and Peabnut placed 7th. Kameme placed outside the top 8 losing to Hyper and Orca

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Kameme pulled out Lucas twice too at the Typo weekly.

Tomorrow is Momo Con and 3 Lucas mains are there.

Kodystri, HighDumpster, and Mekos.

EDIT: Brackets - https://smash.gg/tournament/momocon-2017-1/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/72208

 

[Pyrover]

Hrmm true I'm glad we're discussing this but even if the moves are laggy doesn't make them nonviable in the matchup. Thing is neither character has tools needed to approach the other. Zard is a bait and punish character mainly typically using a tilt or two to apply pressure and hammering on an opponents shield with flamethrower or rock smash to force them to make a move.
Robin meanwhile will wall out as best he/she can with the two projectiles they have, one has a static number of charges while the other one depends on how long it's charged.
What i'm saying though is zard isn't a free match for Robin by any means especially if there's platforms (if zard is camping and you try to throw out a projectile zard can duck under it or jump over it with the platform's help) On top of that Robin WANTS zard to approach because their own approach is just as bad if not worse which is why they need to hold their opponent in place with arcfire or arcthunder so they can make their move.
60:40 maybe but I think if all's the same it's even since zard outpaces Robin on the ground and Robin has Zard with projectiles and combos from those projectiles if zard doesn't dash into shield then roll.

Wanted to comment here for a second because it implies a fundamental misunderstanding of how Robin works. Zard being faster means nothing because literally everyone runs faster than Robin. Only having two projectiles and an awesome Fair for walling is... really good. Zard's low acceleration and below average air speed do him no favors in getting past Robin's zone. Elthunder is a perfectly viable walling tool that takes half a second to charge, so charging isn't a problem. Rock Smash won't help much when Robin primarily attacks with disjoints, and Fly is just asking for a punish in most scenarios. Being a big body gets Zard combo'd hard and makes escaping Arcfire more difficult. If neither character has the tools to approach each other, then Robin benefits because it gives him time to set up his traps and charges. Furthermore, having a limited number of specials is something Robin lives with. Good Robins know how not to run out of projectiles at a bad time. When one book runs out, the other should still be providing functional projectiles for the ten seconds of waiting Robin has to do, and he gets an extremely powerful projectile in his tomes. Levin sword running out only matters when he's going for the kill, as it comes back in six seconds anyway. Flamethrower is nice but doesn't stop short hop projectiles.

RE: Shiek
On stage isn't actually terrible in this matchup. Robin has the range and power advantages, while having a very early kill setup relative to when Shiek kills. Her mobility is as problematic as ever, but spells limit where she can go more than in most matchups. Needles are obnoxious but can be mitigated by charging on platforms and in the air. Having said all this, the edgeguarding situation is painful, and Shiek still has the edge in neutral most of the time. I could easily see this as a 6:4 in her favor, but it's workable.

RE: Marth
Honestly this only feels like 55:45 at worst. Projectiles force Marth to play an air-based game, which Robin can actually work against. Edgeguards are rough but not as bad as Shiek's. The angles the two swing their swords from mean that they trade a lot in the air, even in spite of Marth's superior frame data. Honestly, this might be even, though Lucina might be advantaged because she doesn't have to space for tippers, which often results in Marth giving Robin space to charge thunder for free. Marth looks bad on paper but in practice he doesn't have a lot of ways to not run into things. Shielding isn't always a valid answer against Robin because once Arcfhunder is charged he wants you to block. It's also weirdly easy to land Nosferatu in this matchup, in my experience, but that's beside the point.

 

[TDK]

RFang is a Mario, not a Cloud

I was unaware he had a mario. Fixed.

Also, Kameme went secondaries/pockets all day at the weekly. Same with Komo, until he got put into losers.

 

[JayZee1700]

DK's air speed is actually better than Mario's.

I'm pretty sure that Mario and DK have the same air speed...according to kurogane hammer they both have an air speed of 1.15...

EDIT: Although I can't say it wouldn't be amazing if DK's air speed was faster than Mario's...

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I was unaware he had a mario. Fixed.

Also, Kameme went secondaries/pockets all day at the weekly. Same with Komo, until he got put into losers.

He surprisingly was eliminated by Hyper.

 

[TDK]

Three decent-sized tournaments happening this weekend: Combo Breaker 2017, MomoCon 2017, and Port Priority.

Spoiler: Combo Breaker 2017 pools

E1: Ned vs Dill , Jibca in losers
E2: JJROCKETS vs Dekillsage , EMPEROR Eevee in losers
E3: MVD vs Jaehbock , Ravenking in losers
F1: 8BitMan vs Cheezeballer , Walrus in losers
F2: John Numbers vs DJ Jack , Cobalt in losers
F3: Tyroy vs xane , HelpR in losers
G1: ESAM vs Co-op , LORD WHOOP A$$ in losers
G2: Zinoto vs Deven3000 , StarbasedFruit in losers
Total Entrants: 150

Spoiler: MomoCon 2017 pools

C1: Ally vs Harlock , KidG in losers
C2: Komorikiri vs Neos , DireOnFire in losers
C3: ScAtt vs Myran , Spinach in losers
C4: NAKAT vs RoguePenguin , there's literally nobody else I've heard of in this pool
D1: Larry Lurr vs Salt One , Ferf in losers
D2: VoiD vs Kodystri , Luckywind
D3: Saj vs Mekos , I don't know any of these names but one of them's making it out at third
D4: Captain Zack vs Player-1 , Lazyboredom in losers
E1: Fatality vs Pipp , Sinji in losers
E2: ZeRo vs Rango , Chez in losers
E3: Abadango vs Hyper Kirby , chaoslink in losers
E4: Wrath vs Mew2King , KDK in losers
F1: Kameme vs Lord Mix , I have no idea who anyone else in this pool is
F2: Ranai vs Day , Rosagetsfit in losers (Fun fact: Melee's the moon is in this pool)
F3: Nairo vs RFang , Killanator in losers
F4: Salem vs TheReflexWonder , Combo in losers
Total entrants: 265

Spoiler: Port Priority Pools

Note: 4 people per pool make it out here.
A1: Locus and Shiny in winners, Girthquake and TrueMain in losers
A2: Falln and Deci in winners, Sandman and Disorient in losers
A3: Rich Brown and Braxien in winners, Snickeldorf and Duwang in losers
A4: Elegant and Shinkou in winners, Kantrip and Pokepen in losers
B1: Big D and Pyreeze in winners, Agni and Fuzzio in losers
B2: Konga and Firefly in winners, Taisa and Biggymouth in losers
B3: Captain L and Aarvark in winners, Pandarain and FedVsRafa in losers
B4: Locke and Len (Dropped Pit a little while ago but I'm unsure as to wether he'll go Pikachu, he may not think it's ready) in winners, SilentRain and MD4 in losers
Total entrants: 132

I think this weekend, it might be better to have a single thread for these three, since they're all pretty big. MomoCon's really top-heavy, Combo Breaker's more well-rounded, and the PNW is a pretty underrated region that I'm glad's having two big tournaments in the next few weeks (Battle of BC 2 is gonna be huge).

Also, wow, this was a test of my player knowledge.

EDIT: According to Hyper Kirby's twitter, he beat Kameme's at the weekly, definitely something worth noting.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Three decent-sized tournaments happening this weekend: Combo Breaker 2017, MomoCon 2017, and Port Priority.

Spoiler: Combo Breaker 2017 pools

E1: Ned vs Dill , Jibca in losers
E2: JJROCKETS vs Dekillsage , EMPEROR Eevee in losers
E3: MVD vs Jaehbock , Ravenking in losers
F1: 8BitMan vs Cheezeballer , Walrus in losers
F2: John Numbers vs DJ Jack , Cobalt in losers
F3: Tyroy vs xane , HelpR in losers
G1: ESAM vs Co-op , LORD WHOOP A$$ in losers
G2: Zinoto vs Deven3000 , StarbasedFruit in losers
Total Entrants: 150

Spoiler: MomoCon 2017 pools

C1: Ally vs Harlock , KidG in losers
C2: Komorikiri vs Neos , DireOnFire in losers
C3: ScAtt vs Myran , Spinach in losers
C4: NAKAT vs RoguePenguin , there's literally nobody else I've heard of in this pool
D1: Larry Lurr vs Salt One , Ferf in losers
D2: VoiD vs Kodystri , Luckywind
D3: Saj vs Mekos , I don't know any of these names but one of them's making it out at third
D4: Captain Zack vs Player-1 , Lazyboredom in losers
E1: Fatality vs Pipp , I've got no idea who anyone else is
E2: ZeRo vs Chez , Treeborn in losers
E3: Abadango vs Hyper Kirby , chaoslink in losers
E4: Wrath vs Mew2King , KDK in losers
F1: Kameme vs Lord Mix , I have no idea who anyone else in this pool is
F2: Ranai vs Day , Rosagetsfit in losers (Fun fact: Melee's the moon is in this pool)
F3: Nairo vs RFang , Killanator in losers
F4: Salem vs TheReflexWonder , Combo in losers
Total entrants: 265

Spoiler: Port Priority Pools

Note: 4 people per pool make it out here.
A1: Locus and Shiny in winners, Girthquake and TrueMain in losers
A2: Falln and Deci in winners, Sandman and Disorient in losers
A3: Rich Brown and Braxien in winners, Snickeldorf and Duwang in losers
A4: Elegant and Shinkou in winners, Kantrip and Pokepen in losers
B1: Big D and Pyreeze in winners, Agni and Fuzzio in losers
B2: Konga and Firefly in winners, Taisa and Biggymouth in losers
B3: Captain L and Aarvark in winners, Pandarain and FedVsRafa in losers
B4: Locke and Len (Dropped Pit a little while ago but I'm unsure as to wether he'll go Pikachu, he may not think it's ready) in winners, SilentRain and MD4 in losers
Total entrants: 132

I think this weekend, it might be better to have a single thread for these three, since they're all pretty big. MomoCon's really top-heavy, Combo Breaker's more well-rounded, and the PNW is a pretty underrated region that I'm glad's having two big tournaments in the next few weeks (Battle of BC 2 is gonna be huge).

Also, wow, this was a test of my player knowledge.

EDIT: According to Hyper Kirby's twitter, he beat Kameme's at the weekly, definitely something worth noting.

It was a 2-0 in Hyper's favor, both being last hit, last stock. Btw, who does The Moon play in Smash 4?

 

[TTTTTsd]

sheik can play either hyper aggro or campy and whiff punish focused yet still be in full control the entire match
crouch+needles abuses robin's ganon tier mobility and forces approaches on a character that isn't meant to do so. single needle interrupts charging completely and sometimes ****s up the shots enough to where robin loses the charge completely. so he gets camped dumb hard overall and can't do a ton to counteract it. thankfully, levin uair at higher percents to catch Sheik trying to BF out of corners makes needle camping more risky.
but robin can't land and has **** off ledge, oos, and recovery options. getting hit once as robin means you might be stuck in disadvantage as long as a heavy.

levin fair is likely the best fair in the game without factoring in the jumpsquat, but sheik shouldn't be getting most of her openings vs robin out of jumps anyway. double/triple fair makes this too big a risk just like it does against ryu. aside from that she can bully robin in neutral with the same hyper aggro style you use against fatties except he doesn't even have the gigantic grab range that makes you fear him.
blank plays Dath a lot and says it's a bit like fighting a less threatening, sword wielding DK that you can camp harder and take less damage from in grounded interactions. except he chucks nonthreatening projectiles and punishes jumpins WAY harder.

this is one of the more viewable mid tier vs top tier matchups out there because blank and masterraven both fight dath often, so we don't have to use as much "on paper" and can instead take to videos. i'm sure you're well-versed enough, but watching a single game should be a real good reminder of how badly sheik usually has to mess up to actually get hit by robin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB-ujNBG0LA

tl;dr robin should only be winning if the sheik's making a lot of mistakes/lacking mu experience or getting punished for nearly every jump choice.

also, robin sux :3

So it's not a 6:4 then? Seems largely worse than that, from what it is described as here, anyways.

 

[TDK]

It was a 2-0 in Hyper's favor, both being last hit, last stock. Btw, who does The Moon play in Smash 4?

The moon plays .

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Momo Con Smash 4 Doubles just started on this stream.

https://twitch.tv/smashstudios

EDIT: That is melee stream.

 

[Kofu]

Last I checked, G&W destroys robin. Forces him to approach because bucket + duck and makes mincemeat of him once he gets hit once (don't get me started on offstage...)

Nuetral is tricky because levin aerials, but nothing too difficult to weave around. Better yet, something I like to do against swordies is abuse dtilt's windbox whenever they commit to a jump + aerial to space me out.
Grounded G&W is OP here because our tilts outrange his and fair walls are erased by dtilt.

As others have said, it's not a free matchup but is slightly in Game & Watch's favor. Levin aerials/Checkmate force G&W to play a little conservatively, but he kind of dances around Robin.

Projectile/Oil Panic interactions are tricky to gauge, but I feel like this is one of the matchups where Oil Panic is a constant, influencing factor. Robin is largely reliant on his spells to control space and set up combos due to his lack of mobility. While Oil Panic can be baited out and punished, if used carefully (this usually means at a distance) Robin won't be able to punish the endlag from the first two levels. Misspaced Arcfire provides Game & Watch with a full though weak Bucket. The same goes for a poorly-timed Thoron.

 

[ARGHETH]

Honestly, this might be even, though Lucina might be advantaged because she doesn't have to space for tippers, which often results in Marth giving Robin space to charge thunder for free.

Dath mentioned he thinks Marth's a worse mu for Robin because Robin will generally be spacing around tipper range, resulting in Marth getting the bigger reward (his words, not mine).

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Momo Con Smash 4 Doubles just started on this stream.

https://twitch.tv/smashstudios

This Stream is showing Melee Doubles. I do not think there is a stream for Smash 4 Doubles yet.


According to the brackets. Team Zero/Nario got sent to losers in pools yet again. Losing 2-1 to the team of LazyBordeom and RFang

 

[Pyrover]

Dath mentioned he thinks Marth's a worse mu for Robin because Robin will generally be spacing around tipper range, resulting in Marth getting the bigger reward (his words, not mine).

That could definitely be the case. I would just imagine that with Marth not rushing you down quite as much, Robin would have an easier time zoning. Arcfire outranges the tipper, so I wasn't initially thinking about that, but it could be the case.

 

[TDK]

This Stream is showing Melee Doubles. I do not think there is a stream for Smash 4 Doubles yet.


According to the brackets. Team Zero/Nario got sent to losers in pools yet again. Losing 2-1 to the team of LazyBordeom and Fang

https://www.twitch.tv/mvg_league

I think it's here, actually.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

When did the mvg stream start? I just got a notification for it now? Also I cpuld not find a stream list for the games on the momocon website or smash.gg.

 

[Aaron1997]

TDK In Fatality's Pool. Sinji , BSP (Former #4 PR Louisiana) and CC(PR Georgia) are in that Pool

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

This Stream is showing Melee Doubles. I do not think there is a stream for Smash 4 Doubles yet.


According to the brackets. Team Zero/Nario got sent to losers in pools yet again. Losing 2-1 to the team of LazyBordeom and RFang

SC-NC team being put back on the map, that's incredible.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Secondary stream for smash 4 doubles.

http://www.twitch.tv/typohousegames

Apparantly the South Carolina team was a little mac and mario team and zero got ko punched 4 times. My source is twitch chat.

 

[TDK]

https://smashboards.com/threads/summer-of-smash-week-1-momocon-combo-breaker-port-priority.447993/

 

[The-Technique]

So it's not a 6:4 then? Seems largely worse than that, from what it is described as here, anyways.

Hmm...I think 6:4 is a good fit to describe the matchup. As nasty as Sheik can be, Robin only needs a few solid conversions to eventually cap Sheiks stock at 70-80% with Checkmate, and the nice thing is that Robin only needs one hit to get started (that's how good f-air is) It's an awful matchup for sure but not impossible by any means.

If anyone still remembers, Dath did take Void to last game last stock in a Bo5 a while back, that was prepatch Sheik too.

 

[verbatim]

TDK In Fatality's Pool. Sinji , BSP (Former #4 PR Louisiana) and CC(PR Georgia) are in that Pool

Pac-Man team kill in pools ...

for what it's worth I'd bet on one of them beating fatality (don't sleep on BSP).