Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[FeelMeUp]

DK and Bowser suck.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Locus considers Ryu to be top 3. He might be overestimating him but given his recent results I think he could make a case for bottom of top tier.

Ryu is (probably) somewhere in top tier. Bottom of top tier seems reasonable for now.

 

[Bowserboy3]

For me, Bowser (not so much DK) is a prime example of a character with a huge bunch of weaknesses and exploitable options that were not fixed, and were masked out by something that (not even in a vacuum) is ridiculously OP.

Like, they could have tried to round him out as a character; they could have tried to give him better landing options, they could have tried to give him a few better spacing tools, they could have given him a much more usable projectile, etc, etc.

But, they decided to leave all of his flaws and "counterbalance" them with his Up Throw. The sheer power of this tool makes him a force to be reckoned with, regardless of all his flaws. He just feels like an unfinished character that the developers thought "eh, we don't know how best to fix him so let's give him something amazing to hide this".

Of course, this is just my opinion.

If his overall weaknesses weren't so severe, he'd be top tier for sure in my eyes, but his weaknesses are (luckily) enough to keep him from ever being too oppressive in my eyes. High tier at a stretch, but I don't think he's any lower than mid tier.

Characters with reliable kill confirms from grabs are going to always going to have something to shout about. Just so happens Bowser and DK have the relative speed and grab range (or even setups; DK Dtilt) to maximise this point.

 

[Rizen]

@ Last page: Keep calm and ding dong.

When you compare Ryu to high tiers like Greninja, Ryu seems like a top tier. Compared to top (A and S in the current list) tiers he seems a little lacking. I'd accept him at the bottom of top or the top of high tier.

 

[Laken64]

Just curious but does anyone think TL is a high tier anymore? He's been lacking in results and on twitter Zan says that there is a drought in the TL meta, not to mention that he loses to who is everywhere and he loses to shield. Personally I don't think hes high tier anymore.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Just curious but does anyone think TL is a high tier anymore? He's been lacking in results and on twitter Zan says that there is a drought in the TL meta, not to mention that he loses to who is everywhere and he loses to shield. Personally I don't think hes high tier anymore.

I honestly cannot remember the last time TLink did anything I can see him not being a high tier anyone honestly. I was actually just thinking about this the other day

Another high tier character that really hasn't done much? Villager, outside I Ranai's dominance what else has Villager accomplished recently?

 

[Bigbomb2]

Just curious but does anyone think TL is a high tier anymore

I personally think people figured out some counter play, but I think TL also has some room to grow, so I don't think he's going to drop very far.

 

[Krysco]

Doesn't Hyuga still play? And isn't his ban from the US lifted in a few months? Maybe once that happens he'll start playing there again and give Tink some more rep and results. But then again, he hasn't been going up against the top players as of late unless they've all been going to tournaments in Mexico. I can imagine they've had more practice than he has, kinda like what happened when Zero had his mini hiatus.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I honestly cannot remember the last time TLink did anything I can see him not being a high tier anyone honestly. I was actually just thinking about this the other day

Another high tier character that really hasn't done much? Villager, outside I Ranai's dominance what else has Villager accomplished recently?

First off, what is high tier? According to the 4BR list, it's top 23. It seems quite likely that Luigi and Olimar will move up to high tier, potentially in top 15/20 range even. Are Toon Link and Villager worse than Captain Falcon? Quite likely, yes. Lucario? Plauisible, though I think Lucario has too many bad MUs. Peach? Possible. Greninja? I personally don't think so. I don't think neither Toon Link nor Villager should drop out of high tier though.

Doesn't Hyuga still play? And isn't his ban from the US lifted in a few months?

This will likely change TL's results, but it doesn't actually change the character. It might change our knowledge of the character in case Hyuga figures out some new techniques, but it doesn't actually change the character.

 

[Krysco]

This will likely change TL's results, but it doesn't actually change the character. It might change our knowledge of the character in case Hyuga figures out some new techniques, but it doesn't actually change the character.

Well the character doesn't change but results impact our view of characters. Just look at and right after they got nerfed. Immediately, people were claiming that they weren't even top tier anymore and thanks to results, here we are with most people believing that not only are they top tier but also a cut above the likes of Rosa, Mario, Fox, Sonic etc.

Two other examples I can think of are who sometimes gets considered a mid tier and then Fatality went and got top 3 at Civil War. And who was being considered either just high tier by some or at the very least outside of the top 10 and then she goes and wins 2 majors. And those latter two weren't knee-jerk reactions to nerfs like the former two were.

That's also not to say that it's impossible for to fall out of high tier. got 2nd at an EVO and yet now we have Kameme opting for Sheik and I don't see Scatt's name pop up in many results posted here or any other Mega Man mains for that matter. A big enough dip in results and top/high level players leaving the character could give the impression that said character isn't high tier.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

First off, what is high tier? According to the 4BR list, it's top 23. It seems quite likely that Luigi and Olimar will move up to high tier, potentially in top 15/20 range even. Are Toon Link and Villager worse than Captain Falcon? Quite likely, yes. Lucario? Plauisible, though I think Lucario has too many bad MUs. Peach? Possible. Greninja? I personally don't think so. I don't think neither Toon Link nor Villager should drop out of high tier though.

This will likely change TL's results, but it doesn't actually change the character. It might change our knowledge of the character in case Hyuga figures out some new techniques, but it doesn't actually change the character.

I didn't say Tlink should move outta high tier but rather entertain the thought of it given how long it's been since we've had consistent results to back his current placing. The ban on his best player didn't help but even then the character should still be able to produce which we haven't seen in a long time. Now it could be because I don't pay much attention to Tlink results but as I think about it I can't even remember the last Tlink to make top 32 at a really stacked event. That's why I'll entertain the thought of it. My Villager comment was just more of a question on another character that outside of one player hasn't done a lot. I definitely don't think Villager shouldn't be a high tier.

Also yes, since 4BR is considered the official tier list I typically will go by thier definitions of what constitutes as high tier and such.

 

[T4ylor]

Sigma took 5th at KSB 2017 with Toon Link, beating Komo and Ikep, lost to Earth and Aba

Outside of Hyuga, TL's best reps are in Japan, so it would make sense we wouldn't hear of many results

 

[TDK]

Shielding is an extremely safe option against TL. He's got no reward off of throws until over 120 when Back throw will start killing, and his moves aren't really fast enough to start a decent blockstring (IE ZSS Nair into Jabs or Grab mixup), and they don't don't do enough shield damage to force you out of shield (Like Link's fair, if you hit both hits it halves your shield, if you stay in shield after that Up-B breaks it). A lot of TL's gameplay is conditioning to try and force you out of shield, but his options on their own aren't threatening enough to consistently do that. He kinda just has to hope you pick a panic option and read that to really consistently force you out of shield.

Outside of Hyuga, TL's best reps are in Japan, so it would make sense we wouldn't hear of many results

I'd say we actually do an alright job of keeping track of Japan's results.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Well the character doesn't change but results impact our view of characters. Just look at and right after they got nerfed. Immediately, people were claiming that they weren't even top tier anymore and thanks to results, here we are with most people believing that not only are they top tier but also a cut above the likes of Rosa, Mario, Fox, Sonic etc.

Which goes to show how flawed the whole "Results are so important" point of view is. Many people here place too much emphasis on majors and not enough on how strong the characters actually are. Many people here are also too focused on the US metagame, ignoring what happens in South America, Europe, and Japan (and other regions).

Two other examples I can think of are who sometimes gets considered a mid tier and then Fatality went and got top 3 at Civil War. And who was being considered either just high tier by some or at the very least outside of the top 10 and then she goes and wins 2 majors. And those latter two weren't knee-jerk reactions to nerfs like the former two were.

I've long considered Captain Falcon really good. As for Rosalina & Luma, it's been pretty clear that she's top tier, and top 10 seems very likely, regardless of whether she would have won that major or not.

That's also not to say that it's impossible for to fall out of high tier. got 2nd at an EVO and yet now we have Kameme opting for Sheik and I don't see Scatt's name pop up in many results posted here or any other Mega Man mains for that matter. A big enough dip in results and top/high level players leaving the character could give the impression that said character isn't high tier.

Mega Man is a stronger contender for dropping out of high tier than either Villager or Toon Link, though I don't think he should. His results are actually not that bad though:
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Toon Link #22
Villager #18
Mega Man #24

Oh, and Corrin is currently #17, based on results. I believe it's only a matter of time until those saying that she's mid tier will change their mind. Who will be the player to do it? Cosmos? MkLeo? Frozen? Ryuga? Earth? YOC (unlikely, unless he performs well outside of Japan). Someone else?

I suggest treating results as just one aspect out of many. If we were going strictly by results, Ness would be high tier. Ness is a good character, sure, but he has a lot of bad MUs, some really bad, which keeps him from being high tier (in my opinion, though it's possible I'm being a bit too pessimistic when it comes to Ness).

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I'm surprised no one posted this but in one of the setcount podcasts, Suar posted a mid season mock PGR. Note this does not count Royal Flush or Greninja Saga.

50.Pugwest
49. Nicko
48. Eon
47. Manny
46. K9
45. DSS
44.JK
43. Zenyou
42.Dath
41.Nakat
40. Javi
39.falln
38.KEN
37.Nietono
36.MVD
35.AC
34. T
33. 6WX
32. Earth
31. Ned
30. Elegant
29. Hikaru
28. Kameme
27. Mr.E
26.Anti
25. Locus
24. Rich Brown
23. Shuton
22. Tsu
21.9B
20.Samsora
19. Zinoto
18. Esam
17.Salem
16. Fatality
15. Tweek
14. Ranai
13. Marss
12.Larry Lurr
11.Kirihara
10.Abadango
9.VoiD
8.Nairo
7.Ally
6.Mr.R
5.Komorikiri
4. Captain Zack
3.MKLeo
2.Dabuz
1.ZeRo

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

It's fine to not base things on pure results otherwise you'd leave out many important parts of the meta like regional or local results, which are still important to the development of the meta (not as important as top level competition of course)

But the thing about theorycraft is you need to have something backing it up otherwise it becomes bad theory. Remember how much people claimed was a high tier and has so much potential yet nearly three years into Smash 4 and he has yet to do much to prove that right.

I can look at from a theory perspective and come to the conclusion that he must be a very good character based off his attributes. He proves this winning all the time/getting good placements (results, more importantly consistent results and at all levels of play) thus proving the theory is accurate.

I look at from the same perspective and come to the conclusion he must be a very good character but if he doesn't win or get good placements that often, when he does it's inconsistent and at all levels of play then my theory isn't accurate.

Not a bash on poor Yoshi but he's a pretty good example of this. (I know he's not terrible) Results should always outweigh theory when it comes to this stuff. That's why people put a lot of emphasis on majors because the high level of competition shows what each character is fully capable of.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Why do people think Bowser is as good as or close to as good as DK? As far as I can tell Bowser doesnt come close. I mean surely results speak in favor of DK? And if you look at the best representation Bowsers got and you compare it with Hikaru's DK its so obvious that DK is just a way more functional character and one you can take much further than Bowser who lacks depth in comparison, its much easier to figure out and counter Bowser than it is to figure out DK because the latters toolkit allows for more variation. If High tier is top 23ish then DK is def high tier. Why would Bowser be though?

Apart from that you can just look at their movesets and other attributes and see that DK comes out on top. Better ground game and better aerials, better jump and aerial mobility. I dont get how this is a discussion, DK is obviously the superior character, Bowser doesnt get a lot of **** done nowadays while DK continues to prove his worth time and time again.

 

[Floor]

I'm surprised no one posted this but in one of the setcount podcasts, Suar posted a mid season mock PGR. Note this does not count Royal Flush or Greninja Saga.

50.Pugwest
49. Nicko
48. Eon
47. Manny
46. K9
45. DSS
44.JK
43. Zenyou
42.Dath
41.Nakat
40. Javi
39.falln
38.KEN
37.Nietono
36.MVD
35.AC
34. T
33. 6WX
32. Earth
31. Ned
30. Elegant
29. Hikaru
28. Kameme
27. Mr.E
26.Anti
25. Locus
24. Rich Brown
23. Shuton
22. Tsu
21.9B
20.Samsora
19. Zinoto
18. Esam
17.Salem
16. Fatality
15. Tweek
14. Ranai
13. Marss
12.Larry Lurr
11.Kirihara
10.Abadango
9.VoiD
8.Nairo
7.Ally
6.Mr.R
5.Komorikiri
4. Captain Zack
3.MKLeo
2.Dabuz
1.ZeRo

I don't know enough about your source or how you got this info... and I won't doubt it's authenticity... but man, this feels so inaccurate. AC at 35 and T at 34? Zack at 4? Ally and Nairo at 7 and 8? Is PGR going off of peaks more than consistency? Seems to be the case.

(Also missing some Lucina stock icons on Mr. E and NAKAT but hey)

Why do people think Bowser is as good as or close to as good as DK? As far as I can tell Bowser doesnt come close. I mean surely results speak in favor of DK? And if you look at the best representation Bowsers got and you compare it with Hikaru's DK its so obvious that DK is just a way more functional character and one you can take much further than Bowser who lacks depth in comparison, its much easier to figure out and counter Bowser than it is to figure out DK because the latters toolkit allows for more variation. If High tier is top 23ish then DK is def high tier. Why would Bowser be though?

Apart from that you can just look at their movesets and other attributes and see that DK comes out on top. Better ground game and better aerials, better jump and aerial mobility. I dont get how this is a discussion, DK is obviously the superior character, Bowser doesnt get a lot of **** done nowadays while DK continues to prove his worth time and time again.

This has been discussed and people who think Bowser > DK have explained themselves in this thread. Regardless, there is nothing objective about Bowser v DK and you're post seems to imply that there is. (Recycle my results don't matter post here as it's a pillar in your arguement)

 

[Laken64]

It's fine to not base things on pure results otherwise you'd leave out many important parts of the meta like regional or local results, which are still important to the development of the meta (not as important as top level competition of course)

But the thing about theorycraft is you need to have something backing it up otherwise it becomes bad theory. Remember how much people claimed was a high tier and has so much potential yet nearly three years into Smash 4 and he has yet to do much to prove that right.

I can look at from a theory perspective and come to the conclusion that he must be a very good character based off his attributes. He proves this winning all the time/getting good placements (results, more importantly consistent results and at all levels of play) thus proving the theory is accurate.

I look at from the same perspective and come to the conclusion he must be a very good character but if he doesn't win or get good placements that often, when he does it's inconsistent and at all levels of play then my theory isn't accurate.

Not a bash on poor Yoshi but he's a pretty good example of this. (I know he's not terrible) Results should always outweigh theory when it comes to this stuff. That's why people put a lot of emphasis on majors because the high level of competition shows what each character is fully capable of.

The final nail in 's coffin was who invalidates everything yoshi does/is.

 

[Trifroze]

Which goes to show how flawed the whole "Results are so important" point of view is. Many people here place too much emphasis on majors and not enough on how strong the characters actually are.

The emphasis has always been on how strong the characters actually are, some people just think results are the main way to show that while others think theory is more important. Obviously both have their place.

The problem with results is that while good characters automatically attract good players, there's still a limited amount of those good players, and that people only tend to remember the results of the last major tournament and nothing else.

The problem with theory is that while we may sometimes understand our own character's strengths and weaknesses very well, we can never have knowledge of other characters that's anything close to that and thus have no real frame of reference when it comes to comparing characters with seemingly similar viability. In addition to that most theorists really don't understand the game that well, for example what seems good vs what is good or what is doable against an another player pressing buttons and what isn't. I mostly stopped theorizing because of this (I kept/keep doing it too).

Many are also completely detached between the two viewpoints. They insist their character is good despite no one in the world ever showing that's the case when it matters, or they'll insist a character who's been getting consistent top 16 placements for the last year or more isn't good because they play versus flawed representation of that character in their local/online bubble and win.

Someone, or actually a lot of someones, have to be mid and low tier and it's not the ones getting consistent top 32s at 500+ player events.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'm surprised no one posted this but in one of the setcount podcasts, Suar posted a mid season mock PGR. Note this does not count Royal Flush or Greninja Saga.

50.Pugwest
49. Nicko
48. Eon
47. Manny
46. K9
45. DSS
44.JK
43. Zenyou
42.Dath
41.Nakat
40. Javi
39.falln
38.KEN
37.Nietono
36.MVD
35.AC
34. T
33. 6WX
32. Earth
31. Ned
30. Elegant
29. Hikaru
28. Kameme
27. Mr.E
26.Anti
25. Locus
24. Rich Brown
23. Shuton
22. Tsu
21.9B
20.Samsora
19. Zinoto
18. Esam
17.Salem
16. Fatality
15. Tweek
14. Ranai
13. Marss
12.Larry Lurr
11.Kirihara
10.Abadango
9.VoiD
8.Nairo
7.Ally
6.Mr.R
5.Komorikiri
4. Captain Zack
3.MKLeo
2.Dabuz
1.ZeRo

Er.... This probably is a stupid question that I should already know the answer to, but..... Who the heck is Eon?

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I don't know enough about your source or how you got this info... and I won't doubt it's authenticity... but man, this feels so inaccurate. AC at 35 and T at 34? Zack at 4? Ally and Nairo at 7 and 8? Is PGR going off of peaks more than consistency? Seems to be the case.

(Also missing some Lucina stock icons on Mr. E and NAKAT but hey)



This has been discussed and people who think Bowser > DK have explained themselves in this thread. Regardless, there is nothing objective about Bowser v DK and you're post seems to imply that there is. (Recycle my results don't matter post here as it's a pillar in your arguement)

As stated in my starting statement, it was using midway stats. Your acting likeAC and Zack are not consistent with AC doing well at most tournaments.


EDiT:Ignore everything I misread the context of it and I apologize. It's not PG but they used similar stats and the source was link in suars interview that was on Reddit so I apologize for any misunderstanding. They used a similar system so this is something the rankings could actuallly look like rn

 

[Laken64]

A Fox main in SoCal most known for beating Komo once if not twice.

 

[Nu~]

Yeah, I agree with pretty much everything Trifroze just said.

If we were going strictly by results, Ness would be high tier. Ness is a good character, sure, but he has a lot of bad MUs, some really bad, which keeps him from being high tier (in my opinion, though it's possible I'm being a bit too pessimistic when it comes to Ness).

Like, this right here shows the dangers of overvaluing theory. You can't say that Ness' matchups keep him out of high tier without realizing that that can be debated.
Someone else can just come along with a logical argument that claims that Ness' matchups are amazing. However, a logical argument in the realm of theory doesn't necessarily prove a char's viability in practice.

Which ties into the argument of what a tier list should be; a measure of how good a char is theoretically, how good a char is in practice, or a mix of both?


You also demonstrated the personal bias that comes into making strictly theoretical arguments when proving how capable a char is. I was one of those people Trifroze was talking about; I had too much emotional investment in Pac-Man so I used to deny all empirical data and logical arguments that showed how weak of a char he really was (and still is...sigh) overall.

 

[bc1910]

The Greninja optimism is nice, but I doubt he has better kill confirms than a simple grab or Hoo-hah. .

I have no interest in baseless optimism regarding Greninja any more, I simply recognise some strengths that usually go unnoticed. Greninja's Uthrow is probably the most underrated kill throw in the game.

It kills midweights at around 150% with no rage and at around 125% with, hence by definition he has "a simple grab" confirm on par with every listed character besides Ness (DK and Bowser's would be better if they weren't so percent specific). Ness' Bthrow is significantly better than anything else listed, only limited by the fact that Ness has absolutely nothing else going for him in terms of kill confirms. Greninja on the other hand has Dtilt, weak Nair and others which aren't hard to land. I maintain that Greninja has more varied, versatile kill confirms than any mid tier.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

vs , vs , vs /. vs , vs , vs , vs , vs , vs

Ike is good guys

Not really buying some of these, specifically vs Mario, Cloud, and Falcon, and Marcina, which are even at best.
But really, having some even match ups as a low tier doesn't matter in the long run when there's a Mid Tier or higher with the same even match ups, or advantages and then some. And it doesn't help when you're a fundamentals reliant character like
Ike when Marth and Cloud exist, yielding greater reward for fundamentals as well as providing more depth and options.

For me, Bowser (not so much DK) is a prime example of a character with a huge bunch of weaknesses and exploitable options that were not fixed, and were masked out by something that (not even in a vacuum) is ridiculously OP.

Like, they could have tried to round him out as a character; they could have tried to give him better landing options, they could have tried to give him a few better spacing tools, they could have given him a much more usable projectile, etc, etc.

But, they decided to leave all of his flaws and "counterbalance" them with his Up Throw. The sheer power of this tool makes him a force to be reckoned with, regardless of all his flaws. He just feels like an unfinished character that the developers thought "eh, we don't know how best to fix him so let's give him something amazing to hide this".

Of course, this is just my opinion.

If his overall weaknesses weren't so severe, he'd be top tier for sure in my eyes, but his weaknesses are (luckily) enough to keep him from ever being too oppressive in my eyes. High tier at a stretch, but I don't think he's any lower than mid tier.

Characters with reliable kill confirms from grabs are going to always going to have something to shout about. Just so happens Bowser and DK have the relative speed and grab range (or even setups; DK Dtilt) to maximise this point.

I feel largely this way about DK, perhaps more so even. I'll give an example. Before the ding dong patch, DK got bodied by Falcon. He was combo/juggle food and there was nothing he could do about it but try and get some swings in and hope to land one of his smash attacks, donkey punch, or a stray up air. Neutral wasn't threatening whatsoever. Then DK gets a crazy grab KO confirm and suddenly what once was likely a 30:70 match up is now even, all because of grab. Suddenly DK has a threatening neutral when you're at ding dong percents and now suddenly the same chip damage that meant almost nothing before suddenly means everything.

Many are also completely detached between the two viewpoints. They insist their character is good despite no one in the world ever showing that's the case when it matters, or they'll insist a character who's been getting consistent top 16 placements for the last year or more isn't good because they play versus flawed representation of that character in their local/online bubble and win.

*cough*CaptainFalcon*cough*

Ness has absolutely nothing else going for him in terms of kill confirms.

Careful now, don't get too hasty. He still has plenty of set ups into grab, mix ups, and traps that can lead into grab or crazy strong aerials.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Not really buying some of these, specifically vs Mario, Cloud, and Falcon, and Marcina, which are even at best.
But really, having some even match ups as a low tier doesn't matter in the long run when there's a Mid Tier or higher with the same even match ups, or advantages and then some. And it doesn't help when you're a fundamentals reliant character like
Ike when Marth and Cloud exist, yielding greater reward for fundamentals as well as providing more depth and options.

I thought it was obvious that I meant close to even matchups when I quoted Charizard vs Cloud and Sheik vs DK. Also, when a character goes somewhat even with 6 or 7 of the top 11/12 characters and does fine against most of high tier, can they really be considered low tier?

Marth and Cloud being better than Ike doesn't make him any worse, just less relevant. Kind of like Marth made Lucina for a while

 

[FeelMeUp]

DKWill said while analyzing Mr. R's set that he thinks DK loses to Sheik solidly. His MU chart has her at -1, presumably 45:55
Hikaru notably put the matchup at 6:4, or -2(in my eyes).
RiotLettuce has it as -1.
Blank, Mr. R, and VoiD all put it as 55:45.
I personally think it's 6:4.
Wonder where all of the "even matchup/sheik loses" claims come from. The only person I've seen said that since DK started to get figured out is ZeRo, and he.....well, he's ZeRo.

 

[Rizen]

The only way I can see dropping is due to the power creep of characters like and rising.

I feel largely this way about DK, perhaps more so even. I'll give an example. Before the ding dong patch, DK got bodied by Falcon. He was combo/juggle food and there was nothing he could do about it but try and get some swings in and hope to land one of his smash attacks, donkey punch, or a stray up air. Neutral wasn't threatening whatsoever. Then DK gets a crazy grab KO confirm and suddenly what once was likely a 30:70 match up is now even, all because of grab. Suddenly DK has a threatening neutral when you're at ding dong percents and now suddenly the same chip damage that meant almost nothing before suddenly means everything.

A frame 8, 10 or 11, depending on the type of grab, early kill move that beats shields is really good. 's a grappler who suddenly got huge reward for doing so, although DK does have other good tools like tilts and Bair. It's weird but having one great option can turn a character around.
Sometimes I'll see people say things like " would suck without bombs" and wonder what's the point of that statement. The character was designed around bombs.

 

[The-Technique]

I thought it was obvious that I meant close to even matchups when I quoted Charizard vs Cloud and Sheik vs DK. Also, when a character goes somewhat even with 6 or 7 of the top 11/12 characters and does fine against most of high tier, can they really be considered low tier?

Marth and Cloud being better than Ike doesn't make him any worse, just less relevant. Kind of like Marth made Lucina for a while

if being a character who has neutral pokes that lead to guaranteed followups and KOs, plus a grab that leads into guaranteed followups and KO moves makes you low tier, then that speaks well towards this game's balance

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

The only way I can see dropping is due to the power creep of characters like and rising.

A frame 8, 10 or 11, depending on the type of grab, early kill move that beats shields is really good. 's a grappler who suddenly got huge reward for doing so, although DK does have other good tools like tilts and Bair. It's weird but having one great option can turn a character around.
Sometimes I'll see people say things like " would suck without bombs" and wonder what's the point of that statement. The character was designed around bombs.

That's what I'm saying. Giving DK a killing grab combo doesn't bring his entire kit together, it just centralizes it around finding ways to get a grab. So really you're just adding emphasis to pivot grabs, jab 1, and dtilt, as well as just the grab itself.
This is where we tie it back into Bowser. Bowser doesn't have the same struggle to kill without his throw combo like DK does. He's got mix ups out of jab, some solid tilts, and a fairly potent command grab, especially when landing on platforms. Sealing stocks was never Bowser's issue, it was racking damage efficiently, which combo throws are good for. If you removed uthrow > uair as a kill option for Bowser, but left the combo throw as a means of racking up damage, Bowser would still be a fairly decent character. Uthrow > uair is obviously creates over centralization around grab, and that's an issue from a design standpoint but even if you were to remove that aspect, the character wouldn't fall apart and his kit would still flow together well. If you remove DK's ability to kill with ding dong, he becomes trash again. The damage doesn't matter, just the ability to take the stock.

This is why I think Bowser is better than DK. They both have their OP grab confirms, but Bowser isn't limited to that confirm, it's just that people play him that way because it's what works (yay dominant strategy!). DK is however limited to that until kill throws and jab > utilt work.

 

[my_T]

People still think Luigi is/could be high tier? Unlikely, he's too inconsistent to be high tier just like most characters of his archetype except for Ryu and maybe Lucario.

These characters are inconsistent by design. They tend to have very powerful strengths and very exploitable weaknesses. They're MU spreads are all over the place and they're success is heavily dependent on bracket luck and the opponents play style. The only one with decent consistency is Ryu, the others are hot and cold

 

[TheGoodGuava]

People still think Luigi is/could be high tier? Unlikely, he's too inconsistent to be high tier just like most characters of his archetype except for Ryu and maybe Lucario.

These characters are inconsistent by design. They tend to have very powerful strengths and very exploitable weaknesses. They're MU spreads are all over the place and they're success is heavily dependent on bracket luck and the opponents play style. The only one with decent consistency is Ryu, the others are hot and cold

BREAKING NEWS
The plumber with consistent 70% combos on fast fallers out of a grab, consistent edgeguarding, consistently high kill power, and consistent results is as inconsistent as the the magic dog who relies on sitting at kill % for half the match

 

[bc1910]

Careful now, don't get too hasty. He still has plenty of set ups into grab, mix ups, and traps that can lead into grab or crazy strong aerials.

I should have phrased that better admittedly; Ness has very good kill power in general. He does lack confirms besides Bthrow and a couple of confirms into grab though (which tend to be character specific; PK Fire and Dtilt into grab don't work on fast fallers for example). His kill power is good, but you're generally looking out for raw moves and traps as opposed to stuff like Diddy Dtilt, Sheik Ftilt etc.

 

[Rizen]

That's what I'm saying. Giving DK a killing grab combo doesn't bring his entire kit together, it just centralizes it around finding ways to get a grab. So really you're just adding emphasis to pivot grabs, jab 1, and dtilt, as well as just the grab itself.
This is where we tie it back into Bowser. Bowser doesn't have the same struggle to kill without his throw combo like DK does. He's got mix ups out of jab, some solid tilts, and a fairly potent command grab, especially when landing on platforms. Sealing stocks was never Bowser's issue, it was racking damage efficiently, which combo throws are good for. If you removed uthrow > uair as a kill option for Bowser, but left the combo throw as a means of racking up damage, Bowser would still be a fairly decent character. Uthrow > uair is obviously creates over centralization around grab, and that's an issue from a design standpoint but even if you were to remove that aspect, the character wouldn't fall apart and his kit would still flow together well. If you remove DK's ability to kill with ding dong, he becomes trash again. The damage doesn't matter, just the ability to take the stock.

This is why I think Bowser is better than DK. They both have their OP grab confirms, but Bowser isn't limited to that confirm, it's just that people play him that way because it's what works (yay dominant strategy!). DK is however limited to that until kill throws and jab > utilt work.

We had this conversation last week. A few points I want to reiterate:

I still think is better than but it's pretty easy to argue for either. DK's ding dong is scarier, his CQC game is better, better frame data and mobility. Bowser has special moves that help him land and edge guard but DK's a stronger core character.

From a perspective, fire breath isn't that bad because we out-zone Bowser and we have a disjointed sword and Zair for CQC so Bowser's slower (than DK) frame data gets in the way. He has to approach through a flood of projectiles and deal with clawshot moves that out-range him. It's a lot scarier to fight the heavy with a threatening CQC game and the mobility to chase Link down. Bowser's big selling point is his ability to escaped weight dependent throw combos.

PS I'm not saying Link can destroy Bowser or DK but rather pointing out his pros.

Also note that DK has probably some of the best aerials in the game, including B-air, U-air [...] U-air has intangibility on DK's head starting Frame 1.

So you just gonna ignore how DKs dtilt is transcendent, trips and can set up for grabs while being hella safe on block?

DKs dtilt ties together his game in a way Bowser lacks. Bowsers ground game is too unsafe over all. DK is able to play safe footsies and control that range much better without overcommiting.

Bowser has more mix up potential and greater burst threat. DK can play a slower more controlled footsie based game.

Depends on what you want.

DK's cargo throw offstage is also worth mentioning.

Donkey Kong has 50/50's out of Cargo Up Throw after those percentages, along with a strong back throw. He also has jab 1 to reverse up tilt.

Someone also pointed out Bower's jumpsquat is frame 8 vs DK's frame 6.

IMO if you took away their hoo haws, DK and Bowser would still be about the same placement, although that placement would be maybe the top of low tier.

_________________
edit, they gave Bayo and Cloud frame 4 jumpsquats?! C'mon!

 

[TheGoodGuava]

DKs aerial frame data and spacing rival Clouds and between his grab, tilts, jab, and super armor options, DKs ground game is one of the best. If you were to put his kit on an average sized character model he'd be broken

Now compare that to Bowser

 

[Frihetsanka]

Regarding the "results vs theory" thing. In theory, we could look at all the data and figure out what a tier list would look like based on that. In practice, so far none of us seem to be able to accurately do so. This is where results come in. By looking at results (and also at how various players play the MUs, which is arguably more important than the raw results) we can get some guidance on what the tier list might look like. Since we aren't perfectly logical we cannot rely on theory only. My argument was never that (some) people here only rely on results, or that results aren't important: Rather, I argued that some people put too much emphasis on results.

I think Corrin is a prime example. Most top level players see the potential in Corrin, as do most notable Corrin players. She was voted into high tier (top of high tier) in this tier list. Many objected, some even argued that she's a mid tier because of "lack of results". If that were true, then would she cease to be a mid tier if Cosmos starts traveling and if he gets results with Corrin, or if Earth decides to main Corrin, or if MkLeo picks her up as a secondary, or if Frozen beats MARSS and ANTi at Royal Flush? Clearly, she was never mid tier to begin with. I would be really surprised if I were proven wrong and the top level consensus in two years is thatCorrin belongs in tid tier. I could be wrong, of course. Time will tell.

 

[wedl!!]

I'm kind of unsure why you mentioned Earth...If Earth decided to main Corrin it likely wouldn't sway people's opinions because he's a mid tier hero.

 

[my_T]

BREAKING NEWS
The plumber with consistent 70% combos on fast fallers out of a grab, consistent edgeguarding, consistently high kill power, and consistent results is as inconsistent as the the magic dog who relies on sitting at kill % for half the match

Luigi's results are not consistent for a character that some perceive as high tier. He gets some good top level wins mostly thanks to Elegant but his results are a bit underwhelming at large stacked tournaments.

Lucario at least has higher peaks having top 8's at majors and having almost won a major as well.

Most of the high tiers that the community agrees on have high peaks like top 8's here and there and their lows usually average out to be somewhere in top 16/32

His theory doesn't seem all that great either. Strong advantage state but his neutral and disadvantage state are nothing to write home about.

When was the last time Luigi got top 8 at a major? Abadango Saga?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I should have phrased that better admittedly; Ness has very good kill power in general. He does lack confirms besides Bthrow and a couple of confirms into grab though (which tend to be character specific; PK Fire and Dtilt into grab don't work on fast fallers for example). His kill power is good, but you're generally looking out for raw moves and traps as opposed to stuff like Diddy Dtilt, Sheik Ftilt etc.

???

How does dtilt not work on FFs? It's a 25% trip chance regardless. And if any character generally fast fallers have a harder time getting out of PK Fire then anyone. PK Fire isn't the best way of getting your confirm but it does exist. Ness would rather get his kill grab in via his threatening aerials forcing you to either commit to shield or die to Up air at 120 which then conditions shield making grab easier or the use of ledge traps (either dtilt at ledge or short hop Nair which will kill at ledge around 100) to get a ledge option you want and then backthrow. Off stage if you get hit by PK Thunder on your side that is facing the stage while your below it depending on your percentage Ness has a myriad of confirm options. Either you'll hit the stage and forced to tech, you will fall onto the stage in hitstun and can be jab locked for free or you'll get popped just above it forcing a 50/50. You air dodge you'll land on stage in lag and die to a smash attack, you jump and get up air'd. In addition around 40 percent for most characters if Ness hits you with Nair you'll be forced to tech very quickly otherwise Ness can follow up with a triple jab lock FSmash and if your anywhere near the ledge your likely dead when this happens, FOW does this often.

Also a bit unorthodox but still a very legitimate threat is getting frame trapped by PKT1 into PKT2, The Great Gonzales does this often.

I'll agree he doesn't have a lot of confirms but he can get you to do what he wants to get his kill with or without back throw.