Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[TDK]

I may be wrong for some of these characters so if someone who saw the stream can double check, i'd be thankful:

Toryumon Weekday Tournament X Studio Sky #3 ( 48 Entrants ):

1st Tsu

2nd Raito ( Lost to Tsu twice )

3rd Paseriman ( maybe , lost to Tsu and Raito )

4th Takera ( lost to Kishiru , and Paseriman )

5th Kisha ( maybe , lost to Songn and Paseriman )

5th Songn ( maybe , lost to Raito & Takera )

7th Umeki ( lost to Raito & Kisha )

7th Shu ( Was more relevant in early Smash 4, used & back then, but he may have switched. Lost to Raito & Takera )

Abadango got 9th losing to Tsu & Takera, MKLeo got 17th losing to Songn & Takera.

Tsu- also used , and Paseriman also used .

Source: https://twitter.com/TeamSmashDragon/status/864832798611226624

 

[TTTTTsd]

I did say nearly. However, bowser's ledge guarding, landings, and overall neutral are much better. And ledge guarding is a more universal boon.

DK is more volatile, with his edge guards, ding dong, and donkey punch... But Bowser is more consistent with ledge guards, koo-pas far more lenient percents (not to mention two kill throws and better grab) and his overall better disadvantage. (Relative to DK mind you)

To be honest I'd be for Bowser > DK too if Bowser didn't hate dealing with platforms vs. DK. I suppose this makes it more stage dependent than anything else but that 8f jumpsquat really curbs any mixups or platform pressure besides Down-B. Kind of unfortunate, really.

DK however has amazing jumpsquat for his weight and kit, relatively speaking, which lets him not only platform pressure more but IMO he makes better use of platforms and non-flat stages in general, particularly with his big, fast, and active aerials.

 

[NotLiquid]

Yeah I don't know if I can agree that M2 has a better USmash than Mario, that seems like pretty bold claim. Kills easier? Sure, and it's hitbox properties makes it a great tool for intercepting risky plays, but the boon behind Mario's USmash is how much you can use it with just about anything; damage racking, defending against opponents getting up on ledge, killing easily etc. without much commitment. Mewtwo does not have that luxury, a whiff = guaranteed hard punish. It's like the ZSS grab of Up Smashes.

Despite the ubiquity of it's usage I'd say Mario's USmash is absolutely not overrated. It's more accurate to say that other characters have USmashes that are underrated, and yeah, Luigi's is definitely one of them. I do agree that Rosa in some aspects has a superior USmash over Mario.

 

[JayZee1700]

To be honest I'd be for Bowser > DK too if Bowser didn't hate dealing with platforms vs. DK. I suppose this makes it more stage dependent than anything else but that 8f jumpsquat really curbs any mixups or platform pressure besides Down-B. Kind of unfortunate, really.

DK however has amazing jumpsquat for his weight and kit, relatively speaking, which lets him not only platform pressure more but IMO he makes better use of platforms and non-flat stages in general, particularly with his big, fast, and active aerials.

Also note that DK has probably some of the best aerials in the game, including B-air, U-air and N-air. His D-air is one of the strongest meteors in the game, and F-air does meaty damage, and it spikes. U-air has intangibility on DK's head starting Frame 1. Outside of his iconic Ding Dong, it's also a great juggling tool. I may be wrong, but i believe it beats Cloud's D-air, so its a very useful move. Whereas Bowser has power in his aerials, DK has not only power, but also great combo potential in moves like N-air, B-air, or U-air. He's generally faster than Bowser. His walk speed is very fast, while Bowser's is quite slow. Bowser's dash is a little faster than DK's, but DK's air speed, and frankly his air mobility is better than Bowser's. DK's frame data is also better than Bowser's overall, considering how Bowser is one of the laggiest characters in the game. Bowser has a kill option at all times, but DK has more combo potential, and more reliable kill options in the form of Ding Dong or his D-air spike which kills REALLY early (like >20%).

So...my verdict is DK > Bowser.

 

[williamsga555]

Not sure I'd consider DK's nair one of the best aerials in the game. Move seems pretty "okay" by almost all respects. Is there something about it I'm missing?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Going to drop this here for anyone interested - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mIbIFkfCBzmTuzl8naFLPMEkm0fEZfRML96mbQ2nPxc/edit#gid=0

Saw this today; it is an ongoing list of all active UK players and who their tournament mains and secondaries are.

I find it more interesting on finding out which characters are the most popular.

The first place character may shock some.

also ya boi is somehow on there ayy

I really like this list. It would be neat if other countries could eventually make their own.

 

[Floor]

I would say Bowser > DK by a slim margin. I would argue Bowser has the better of all 4 Specials while his tilts are about equivalent to DKs. DK certainly has a better bair but I can't say for certain Bowser has any other aerial that's worse than DK; he certainly has a better fair.

 

[TDK]

Bowser having an actual forward facing Poke is a big deal.

He's also really difficult to combo because he's a floaty (He's one of the six characters that can always escape Link's throw combos), has something resembling a neutral, better OoS, and a marginally better recovery and landing options.

Ding Dong is stronger than the Koopa Scoopa though, which is probably why DK gets more rep.

 

[L9999]

Not sure I'd consider DK's nair one of the best aerials in the game. Move seems pretty "okay" by almost all respects. Is there something about it I'm missing?

IIRC Nair could combo into anything but it could be a meme post.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I am silly.

I saw "Bayo" in the first sentence and then saw "Bair" and my brain thought it was referring to Bayonetta.

I need coffee...

Whatever; what I said about Bayonetta still stands. And @Megamang, in regarrds to Bayonetta's Dair, it likely has strong knockback on the final hit to replicate how the same move works in her home series; it drags aerial opponents down (regardless of where it hits I'll add; be thankful for small mercies) and launches them away on the ground. Average combo finisher, and good for getting chip damage on opponents on the ground if you are finished with your aerial opponent. Not trying to defend it, but merely explaining why it's the case.

Speaking of which, I wonder if people who have actually played Bayonetta's games realise how similar but strangely different her moves are at the same time. Yes, ABK is a combo move in the air, but imagine if the Smash version was a multi hit that always ended with the opponent infront of you. Imagine if DABK was also a multi hit that dragged the opponent downwards (free pseudo-spikes bois). Imagine if Witch Twist could be done during a roll/dodge. Imagine if her dodges and Bat Within triggered Witch Time...

Smash Bayonetta still has more options than most/arguably all other characters, but she's incredibly weaker than her home series self. We should be thankful Sakurai didn't make a 1-to-1 copy of her and her move's original properties.

Then we'd all have been f*****.




Anyway, back to Smash...




Suppose I'll chip in on the actual Bair in question then; Corrin's Bair is indeed good. IIRC, you need to use it closer to the top of the short hop to make full use of the momentum shift. If it's done lower down the momentum shift won't help as much and can be punished. And as before if you space it near the base of the wings regardless, it should be punishable.

But the momentum shift itself can throw you off; you may think you could get a grab but because the momentum shift pushes him away you may need to use something else.; this is what makes it deceptive and a good move (that and it's overall kill power). It can also be confirmed into from a Dragon Fang Shot which KO's at a solid 90%-100% based on positioning near the ledge.

Also, in relation to something I saw earlier, Corrin's disadvantage isn't that bad. If Corrin's backed into a corner, it's not like he has a relatively quick, frame 8 instant move that can completely invalidate certain characters/forces a defensive option. Can be punished by a few characters but it can be used to reverse the pressure.

Nair is also surprisingly quick too; not Mario Nair (frame 3), but IIRC it's frame 6, which is kinda silly considering it's disjoint and hitbox coverage.

If bayo was a 1 to 1 like you said I would play her. Her aerials, bullet arts, and witch time not being used the same way as in her source games is what kept me playing bayonetta as far as competitive smash is concerned; since the 2nd and 3rd hits of bayo's tilts, fair and bullet arts do not see a lot a use to me.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bowser having an actual forward facing Poke is a big deal.

He's also really difficult to combo because he's a floaty (He's one of the six characters that can always escape Link's throw combos), has something resembling a neutral, better OoS, and a marginally better recovery and landing options.

Ding Dong is stronger than the Koopa Scoopa though, which is probably why DK gets more rep.

So you just gonna ignore how DKs dtilt is transcendent, trips and can set up for grabs while being hella safe on block?

 

[TDK]

So you just gonna ignore how DKs dtilt is transcendent, trips and can set up for grabs while being hella safe on block?

It does?

I take back what I said about DK lacking a good forward facing poke, then.

 

[Illuminose]

I would say Bowser > DK by a slim margin. I would argue Bowser has the better of all 4 Specials while his tilts are about equivalent to DKs. DK certainly has a better bair but I can't say for certain Bowser has any other aerial that's worse than DK; he certainly has a better fair.

bowser's tilts are nowhere NEAR as good as dk's down tilt alone, which is a safe, ranged poke with intangibility on the arm that literally leads into grab. ftilt is decent because it has a huge hitbox and covers space well. up tilt is an insanely solid anti-air that can kill sub-100. bowser's up tilt is a slow, mediocre move. down tilt can be good at the ledge to kill with right read or an accurate 2 frame, but it's nowhere near as good as dk's in terms of general/practical utility. ftilt is decent because you can use pivot ftilt to cover yourself pretty well. aerials? dk's bair alone has more utility than bowser's entire combined aerial kit. dk also has an up air that is actually quick enough to shark with, and superior air mobility to utilize it. dair gives you an actual spike, which is useful and can even be good for two framing recoveries, fair and nair (arguably) are worse moves than bowser's, but dk's aerial kit is much better in general.

also TDK for most characters it's legitimately harder to combo dk than bowser simply because dk has an actual combo escape in the form of a frame 3 intangible up b. even if you reset, dk can literally do as much damage as your combo with one up b.

for the record i think dk is a tier above bowser, i don't think bowser even competes. dk just has a far more complete kit, especially in the aerial department, than bowser, and is generally a more threatening character to fight. bowser is vulnerable to platform camping and being shut out in general because he doesn't really have the air mobility or the mixup options to make you fear multiple things out of him. in that sense, bowser is a much more linear grappler than dk because at any point you pretty much only have to fear the grab. dk can back air you or get you in the air and potentially juggle, he can foxtrot back and forth and perfect pivot dtilt to mix you up with spacing/timing, he can charge/use the dk punch, he can throw you offstage and get an edgeguard. dk also consistently kills earlier than bowser, including outside ding dong percents. if you know what you're dealing with, bowser is a super linear character to fight, whereas no matter how much matchup knowledge you have dk can still present various different effective options. the only significant thing that bowser has over dk is up b oos and some extra leniency on uthrow kill windows (though they kill later), which really does not make up for everything else dk brings to the table.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

USmash is legit busted but it has counterplay and is better used as a counterattack for poorly-spaced aerials (or as a close-quarters way to stuff jabs). It's his most reliable kill option but if the opponent doesn't have to get super close to Game & Watch in neutral its effectiveness is limited as its hitbox is very small.

I find his up smash hard to read when fighting players using his grey alt since the lines that show the diver helmet blend in with the skin. So when i see it used I mistake it for the walking animation and fall into the up smash a lot trying to fair him as Lucas.

 

[Pyrover]

I'd argue Bowser being slightly over DK.

To do a 1-1 comparison:
Jab- Mostly equivalent. They're both slightly slow boxing moves that have some weak mixup potential.
F-Tilt- Bowser's gives him a good spacing move that knocks people off stage a lot. DK's is much slower and less powerful, but has slightly more range. I'd take Bowser's.
D-Tilt- DK's sets up into a lot of things and is really fast. Bowser's raw damage doesn't make up for that. DK
Up-Tilt- Both moves serve as okay anti airs. DK's kills at 130-ish, but Bowser's is faster. Have basically the same hitbox.
Up-Smash- Bowser has invulnerability and kills at 90. His little hop also gives it the same range as DK's. Bowser favored.
F-Smash- Both moves are bad, but the raw power leads me to believe Bowser's is better.
D-Smash- DK favored, just because Bowser's is garbage.
Grab- Bowser's pivot grab range is dumb and we all know it. Otherwise they're equivalent. Bowser has two potentially lethal throws, so his are better after combo percentage.
Up-air- Similar moves that serve the same function. Both have some head intangibility.
Nair- DK's is very average. Bowser's is huge and does obscene damage.
Fair- Bowser gets a very useful spacing move. DK's spike doesn't compare.
Bair- DK's is great. No questions here, no matter how deadly Bowser's is.
Dair- I actually think Bowser's is better. DK having the spike is great. But it doesn't help him land. Bowser's does.
I feel pretty safe saying Bowser got the better special moves without a comparison. Giant Punch's super armor aside, nothing in DK's kit is that impressive.

Both have equally functional neutrals with a spacing tilt, up-tilt to cover behind them, the threat of the grab, and a good aerial to approach with. I'd say Bowser has better tools to edgeguard, land, and box, while DK does better in the air and when juggling. DK's combo kills earlier, but has a much smaller window of opportunity, and if he misses it, then he's got a long way to go before he gets a kill. Bowser is slightly faster to help him get around, and is always threatening even if he misses his kill combo.

Additionally, Bowser's floatiness makes him harder to combo, in addition to his slightly higher weight and superior recovery, this makes him the harder one to kill.

DK has three really good moves (d-tilt, bair, Giant Punch) in neutral and his grab combos, but I don't see much else to him from there. Bowser's got a functional threat at all times with landing aerials, a command grab, more spacing tools, and a greater variety of killing options. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

All of DK's tilts have better frame data except maybe ftilt (Bowsers starts a frame later and has 4 active frames whereas DKs has 2, both have the same faf). I would take DK's grounded moveset over Bowser's any day.
DK's up air is a good move even without ding dong, frame 6, head intangibility, really good auto cancel, kills and combos, etc. The only reason why Bowsers is considered good is because its the finisher to his kill combo.
DKs fsmash doesn't kill as early as Bowsers but is still one of the strongest in the game. It's also much safer on block and can actually be used as a spacing tool against characters with poor traction (Luigi, Mewtwo, Charizard, Mario, etc).
The only special of Bowser's i would argue is actually better is his command grab and his grounded up b, other than that DK has a frame 3 combo breaker that can do 20+, a down special that forces you to get hit or risk getting your shield broke, and super armor giant punch

DK is better.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

All of DK's tilts have better frame data except maybe ftilt (Bowsers starts a frame later and has 4 active frames whereas DKs has 2, both have the same faf). I would take DK's grounded moveset over Bowser's any day.

What about forward tilt? Bowser's is better in that department.

 

[Emblem Lord]

DKs dtilt ties together his game in a way Bowser lacks. Bowsers ground game is too unsafe over all. DK is able to play safe footsies and control that range much better without overcommiting.

Bowser has more mix up potential and greater burst threat. DK can play a slower more controlled footsie based game.

Depends on what you want.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

What about forward tilt? Bowser's is better in that department.

DK's has a bigger hitbox, roughly equal frame data, and 1% less. I'd take DK's tbh

 

[Krysco]

In regards to tilts, Bowser's ftilt hits from frame 10-14 with arm intangibility on those same frames and an faf of 38 while DK's ftilt hits from frame 9-11 with arm intangibility from frames 1-25 unless you angle it up, then it's frames 7-11 and it also has an faf of 38. Utilt, Bowser's hits from frames 11-16 with arm intangibility on frames 12-16 and an faf of 41 while DK's hits on frames 5-11 with arm intangibility from frames 5-25 with an faf of 39.

Uair, Bowser's is hitting frames 9-13 with head intangibility frames 3-13, has an faf of 45, autocancels after frame 40 and Bowser's short hop length is 34 frames so no sh ac uair. DK on the other hand hits on frames 6-10 with head intangibility frames 1-10, an faf of 38, autocancels after frame 26 and DK's short hop length is 40 frames so he can sh ac uair.

One big difference I see between DK and Bowser is that Bowser seems slightly less hopeless in disadvantage since he can break your shield with down b whereas DK only really has headbutt which requires a much different position and Bowser also has side b. It isn't too much better but it's something. DK has up b but he's going into helpless right after and basically has to go to the ledge.

Another difference is that I often see people mention that if DK puts his opponent past ding dong percent, he basically reverts to prepatch DK and can struggle to kill. Meanwhile, if Bowser allows the same thing, he has fthrow, bthrow and side b to take a stock. Though I believe DK's bthrow is also a stock cap throw at the ledge? Could be wrong on that. Don't really play the character.

One thing I find amusing is how discussion revolving around Marth and Lucina is despised here and yet we go right back to comparing two other similar characters. Not complete clones but they're both still similar. Just gotta wait for Zard to join the topic because that easy-to-di uthrow of his is a thing. Heck, for that matter, there was just a comparison between Bayo and ZSS.

Lucina, welcome to the club. You can have a seat right next to Pikachu as one of the characters that shall forever be hated in the 4BR CCI~

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/864961287628898304

Lea , Shiki , and Tempra are all confirmed for 2GGC: Greninja Saga.

Frog count: 16

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Lucina, welcome to the club. You can have a seat right next to Pikachu as one of the characters that shall forever be hated in the 4BR CCI~

Often brought up for no reason, most of the arguments are ****fests of misinformation and Lucina mains assuming people don't know what they're talking about when it comes to Lucina, still not as bad as Pikachu though

 

[Rizen]

Can we all agree that has better standard moves and mobility and has better special moves, ledge trapping and disadvantage?

 

[Krysco]

Often brought up for no reason, most of the arguments are ****fests of misinformation and Lucina mains assuming people don't know what they're talking about when it comes to Lucina, still not as bad as Pikachu though

I'd say Lucina getting results for once to back the idea that she's closer in viability to Marth than she's currently shown on the 4BR tier list is a pretty good reason to bring her up. Especially when the best player in the world is using her as a secondary and somewhat frequently it seems too. I'll admit that the whole 'Lucina is misunderstood' bit is a bit...dated. At least for this thread. Been ages since I've seen anyone claim she has less range than Marth and very few people seem to think Marth does better in too many MUs over Lucina just because of tipper (not saying he doesn't do better in some MUs, I'm sure he does).

As for Pikachu, I haven't watched any of Esam's videos in a while but last I recall, he seems a bit more in line with most people in regards to Pikachu's viability. Not calling him a top 5 character anymore iirc. Other than that, Pika doesn't seem to get too many results and therefore, not much discussion. Partially surprised no one has bothered to bring up the rat and try to ask if the character is still high tier or if he's gonna fall to mid but I can imagine a big reason it hasn't been brought up is because people are afraid of what the conversation will come to. That and I don't believe many Pika mains frequent this place and people like to talk about the characters they actually know about.

 

[Y2Kay]

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/864961287628898304

Lea , Shiki , and Tempra are all confirmed for 2GGC: Greninja Saga.

Frog count: 16

Jesus Christ . . .

That's nearly every relevant Gren player now. They even got my boy Tempra? LET'S GOOOOOO

 

[Heracr055]

I actually think the Marcina discussion that occured the past few pages was fine; for the most part it didn't delve into complaining about Lucina's position relative to Marth, nor did people really say 'no, not Marcina discussion again!' And I think the Bayo/ZSS comparison was a healthy one.
I'd like to encourage more ZSS discussion if possible. This is a volatile character in the community since people don't seem to have the same consensus about her (top 5 or top 10 for example). She was also being considered as falling off prior to Civil War, much like RosaLuma. But yeah, I think the discussion for the past couple of pages (Marcina, ZSS/Bayo, and DK/Bowser) has been constructive and a good example of healthy discussion.

 

[FeelMeUp]

ZSS functions as one of the best top tier CPs in the game. Not necessarily difficult to use, great mobility, good cheese factor, good maps, strong matchup spread, and only 2 characters straight up counter her. Loses to the entire top 4 with varying degrees of severity but holds her own or wins against every other member of the top 10. Respectable record and theory against a few of the more problematic characters people dread seeing in brackets, such as . That fact alone should keep her relevant for a long, long time.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Can we all agree that has better standard moves and mobility and has better special moves, ledge trapping and disadvantage?

How is Bowser's aerial up, neutral, and down specials better than DK's?

imma just jump off a bridge, bye

 

[TDK]

How is DK's aerial up, neutral, and down specials better than DK's?

Alright, which one of these did you mean Bowser for?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

How is DK's aerial up, neutral, and down specials better than DK's?

???

 

[Illuminose]

P Pyrover there are multiple incorrect things in your post that i'll address point by point, mainly just to reduce misinformation because ultimately a side-by-side move comparison isn't that useful for determining the difference in the characters

• jab - dk has a frame 5 jab, which is not exactly slow and can confirm into grab, or at higher percents pivot utilt for a ko. bowser's jab is actually better despite being a little slower (frame 7) though because it has intangibility and is safer to throw out. jab is one of bowser's few actual good moves, actually.
• ftilt - dk's ftilt is actually slightly faster, not slower (frame 9 vs frame 10), and actually has crazy arm intangibility (normal and down angles have 1-25, high angle has 7-11). it's true that bowser's has more kb, and it lasts a little longer, but it's primarily more useful just because bowser has more limited options than dk (lacks dk dtilt).
• utilt - these are actually not comparable at all. dk's utilt is frame 5, lasts 7 frames, and has arm intangibility frames 5-25. bowser's has a worse hitbox, is significantly slower at frame 11, lasts 1 frame less, and only has intangibility starting on the second frame of the move (frame 12) until the end of the move (frame 16). dk's is a fantastic anti-air and a good kill move, whereas bowser's is just a mediocre anti-air.
• fsmash - this one is tough, but it's worth noting that dk's is not nearly as crazily unsafe to throw out. -12 for a move with the range of dk's fsmash is much better than -26 for bowser's fsmash, to say the least. that said, the angle on bowser's is better for killing, so if you get a shieldbreak as bowser (plausible), then you get a silly kill option, and we're not talking about the most applicable moves ever here, so that is a legitimate point. you basically have dk's which is still super strong and not as unsafe compared to bowser's absurd shieldbreak punish.
• fair - bowser's fair is not a good move, being both unsafe and super slow/awkward because of bowser's 8 frame jumpsquat. bowser doesn't really jump, that's just not how he plays, and calling fair a good move is laughable. it looks usable because it's bowser's only aerial that isn't practically unusable in neutral.
• dair - bowser's dair does not really help you land because it's reactable and bowser lacks any other real mixup. it's good vs people who don't have experience deal with it, but realistically it's not a very good option (and can even be teched on hit).

i also want to quickly mention a couple things people never or rarely mention, like the difference in physics. bowser being far floatier while having piss poor aerial mobility means that, despite his 'mixups' that occasionally work, bowser is at best equal with dk in landing and might even be marginally worse. at least dk has actual air mobility. furthermore, bowser has a horrendous walk but an insane run to stop, whereas dk has an actual good foxtrot and top 10 walk speed, but lacks the run to stop time. this pretty much means bowser can only run for movement, whereas dk has the effective options of both run and walk, except bowser's run is better. the one thing you do have is that bowser's weight makes certain grab combos ineffective, or at least worse.

bowser does NOT have more options. bowser is pretty much jab and pivot grab: the character. his aerials are bad, the rest of his tilts are barely useable, all he really he has going for his neutral is run+jab and grab. there's a strength in the simplicity to bowser's gameplan and it does work, but having way more options for neutral, including a legitimate aerial game, matters a lot. dk's advantage state is also way better because his utilt is solid and he has good aerials to shark and edgeguard (plus up b edgeguarding). both get demolished at the ledge.

i also fail to see what is better about bowser's ledge trapping. the mere fact that his aerials are garbage is a huge limiting factor on its own, and dk has better punishing options. up tilt has good coverage and kills, giant punch is super dangerous if dk gets the read, aerials to cover jump, aerials to cover jump from ledge...what is bowser offering that people are so sure is better than dk's multi-faceted and dangerous set of ledge trapping options? there's many statements being said about bowser that simply cannot be backed up.

 

[Big O]

I know people love to compare DK and Bowser because they are the two OG heavyweights in smash, but they don't really play very similarly outside of wanting to grab you.

As far as how they play, the biggest difference to me is how much more varied DK's options are. DK has good overall mobility while Bowser's mobility outside of his faster run/dash is slow/decent. DK has more useful buttons and options, but Bowser's good buttons/options are just really good. DK's throws are much more varied, but Bowser's Uthrow is stupid good (and kills Luma). DK has superior frame data, reach, and mobility. Bowser trades all those things for some unique traits like tough guy, air command grab, Usmash invincibility, Up B OoS, Flame Breath, Dair, incredible KO power, and more focused strengths in general. Essentially, DK is more versatile and Bowser is more focused.

If all you did was stick to abusing their grab game, Bowser has a clear edge because his dash/run speed, pivot grab, and dash grab are way more potent than DK's. Bowser's KO confirms off of it are also much more consistent and less prone to being screwed over by rage than DK's.

I can see why people would rate Bowser over DK because he can achieve his win condition more easily and his strengths are more abusive. Bowser has better burst threat/mobility, is harder to combo, lives longer, scales better with rage, and has an easier time getting grabs. Personally though, I think DK's tools are just better overall and that makes me rate him slightly above Bowser. DK's offstage game is better, his footsies/spacing is better, his sharking/platform game is better, and he is better equipped to deal with camping.

 

[Rizen]

^DK/Bowser is one of the better juxtapositions.

How is DK's () aerial up, neutral, and down specials better than DK's?

Assuming ^this is what you meant, Bowser's upB can gain a lot of height by mashing B and is a much faster, frame 6, OoS. His fire breath murders certain recoveries. Bowser bomb can sweetspot the ledge from above and deals absurd shield pressure. The ground upB hit and falling hit guarantees a shield break, which almost always means a stock.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Another difference is that I often see people mention that if DK puts his opponent past ding dong percent, he basically reverts to prepatch DK and can struggle to kill.

I don't really see how DK struggles to kill that much besides Ding Dong.

 

[TheRabidChipmunk]

While I ultimately believe DK is the superior character, there are two things I'd like to mention that Bowser has over DK that haven't come up yet.

Firstly, if DK misses ding dong, he can have a hell of a time sealing a stock. In sets like Tweek vs Abadango or DKWill vs John Numbers, the DK player hit their opponent one too many times and knocked them out of ding dong percents, and then couldn't find a kill. Even in Hikaru vs Void, Hikaru knocked Void out of ding dong percents a few times and had to use some pretty randy options to find a stock instead, like dair on stage, and he's the best DK I've seen at not putting the opponent at too high a percent. DK lacks effective set-ups to kill past ding dong. Plus, putting his opponent out of ding dong range makes abusing his shield much safer against characters that would ordinarily murder him but don't because they're extremely vulnerable to his grab combos (Sheik, Bayonetta, Cloud). It removes the threat of his grab and further exacerbates his second biggest problem, poor OoS options.

Bowser, meanwhile, doesn't struggle so much with finding other kill options. He has two excellent kill throws, but his fthrow is more notable since forward facing kill throws are the bomb. He also kills with just about every other move he has, many of which can be used as mix ups out of jab. And secondly, Bowser's OoS game is much better than DK's -- up-b out of shield is just an answer to so many things, and makes Bowser virtually immune to cross-ups, which DK himself is quite vulnerable to.

I think DK's other factors (better air-to-air combat, less linear neutral, superior kill confirm) ultimately give him the edge over Bowser, but when looking to the compare the two characters together, don't forget some of these strengths that Bowser has alongside the others already mentioned.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

While I ultimately believe DK is the superior character, there are two things I'd like to mention that Bowser has over DK that haven't come up yet.

Firstly, if DK misses ding dong, he can have a hell of a time sealing a stock. In sets like Tweek vs Abadango or DKWill vs John Numbers, the DK player hit their opponent one too many times and knocked them out of ding dong percents, and then couldn't find a kill. Even in Hikaru vs Void, Hikaru knocked Void out of ding dong percents a few times and had to use some pretty randy options to find a stock instead, like dair on stage, and he's the best DK I've seen at not putting the opponent at too high a percent. DK lacks effective set-ups to kill past ding dong. Plus, putting his opponent out of ding dong range makes abusing his shield much safer against characters that would ordinarily murder him but don't because they fear his grab (Sheik, Bayonetta, Cloud). It removes the threat of his grab and further exacerbates his second biggest problem, poor OoS options.

Bowser, meanwhile, doesn't struggle so much with finding other kill options. He has two excellent kill throws, but his fthrow is more notable since forward facing kill throws are the bomb. He also kills with just about every other move he has, many of which can be used as mix ups out of jab. And secondly, Bowser's OoS game is much better than DK's -- up-b out of shield is just an answer to so many things, and makes Bowser virtually immune to cross-ups, which DK himself is quite vulnerable to.

I think DK's other factors (better air-to-air combat, less linear neutral, superior kill confirm) ultimately give him the edge over Bowser, but when looking to the compare the two characters together, don't forget some of these strengths that Bowser has alongside the others already mentioned.

DK can also kill with back throw.

 

[Krysco]

I don't really see how DK struggles to kill that much besides Ding Dong.

I'm no expert on the character but from what I can tell, his smashes can't just be thrown out there like MK fsmash or Mario usmash (relative to other smash attacks, mind you), his bair is often stale since it's such a useful move, uair is only really gonna hit during ding dong, sharking or reading an airdodge and I'm pretty sure his best straight up kill throw is bthrow. Nothing else he has really kills except for offstage spikes which are risky.

 

[TheRabidChipmunk]

DK can also kill with back throw.

Yeah, but it's not often an effective option. It's actually a little worse at killing than Mario's, and DK is too fat to run past his opponent and pivot grab a lot of the time to set it up. It's a useful stock cap, but not a reliable way to seal stocks.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

It's actually a little worse at killing than Mario's

It kills earlier, though.

 

[TheRabidChipmunk]

It kills earlier, though.

Does it? I was using Kurogane and judging based on the numbers. Mario's has more bkb and kbg and they both do 11%, but dk's is at a shallower angle so i guess that makes up some of the difference.