Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[DunnoBro]

Bowser & DK have some solid differences. DK's bair, for example, is a HUGE selling point. His edgeguarding is a little better than Bowser's as a result.

I did say nearly. However, bowser's ledge guarding, landings, and overall neutral are much better. And ledge guarding is a more universal boon.

DK is more volatile, with his edge guards, ding dong, and donkey punch... But Bowser is more consistent with ledge guards, koo-pas far more lenient percents (not to mention two kill throws and better grab) and his overall better disadvantage. (Relative to DK mind you)

 

[Bowserboy3]

The ZSS to Bayonetta comparison baffles me to some extent. Bayonetta does not straight up outclass ZSS in every area. Pre-patch Bayonetta I would have probably agreed on, but post patch Bayonetta, comparing even to post patch ZSS, I do not agree.

The straight up, pure similarities include:

• Amazing (if not the two best) recoveries and disadvantage states.
• Fantastic and stylish combo and punishing games.
• Both have "ladder" combos that can lead into death.
• Both are tall, hot women ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) with strong Back Airs.

That's about where the true similarities end. The two are not as similar as people like to believe; on paper yes, but when you start to break them down you see the finer differences.

I'll start with the basic stuff; If anything, I want to say Bayonetta's punishes are more open, possibly more common to see due to the myriad of ways she can get them started. Bayonetta drops her overall punishes much easier than ZSS due to a variety of variables such as weights, timings, SDI and Rage. That and the fact that people still don't know the best ways to escape her combo game reliably also amplifies their effectiveness to some degree.

In the contrary, ZSS's punishes are a little more strict, but are what I would call, more deadly; they are less prone to being dropped. Now, this is in no way saying that Bayonetta's are not deadly in her own right, but more, if Bayonetta gets a Dtilt on you near the ledge, if you don't know how to DI or SDI, you will very likely be taking 30-40%% damage easy; stock loss is a possibility, but the stars have to be aligned in all areas for this to be the case. This is in contrast to ZSS, who may get a simple Nair or Dsmash into Flip Kick spike and end your stock right there. Yes, Witch Time is a thing and that can end stocks too but post patch it is not all that common anymore unless it's Witch Time into a KO move.

Another misconception I see is that people seem to believe that Bayonetta can finish stocks for free. At around 90%, unless you get that Bair, offstage gimp or Witch Time, she's going to be struggling to get that KO; Witch Twist and ABK have too much knockback to follow up on if the opponent DI's correctly (straight up or down for Twist, and in most cases down or down away is better for ABK; this means Uair cannot hit you).

ZSS has one thing that is absolutely more notable over Bayonetta, and that is movement speed/mobility. Bayonetta's merely average movement speed isn't really a huge problem all in all, but it does grant her less areas to quickly get that punish if she's not in range. ZSS's speed works hand in hand with her punish game. See a poor ledge getup from mid stage? No problem!; that's a free Dash Grab or even Nair which can end the stock. Bayonetta's can also possess more issues against faster characters like ZSS herself, Fox, notably Sonic, or even Captain Falcon; it can become hard to safely punish everything these characters can throw at you from their safe distance.

Their neutral games are... similar. Both of them require spacing around their opponent attempting to poke and get that initial confirm. ZSS's neutral is what I would call arguably safer though, thanks to her possessing pretty much a sword in her Zair, and her speed only makes her ability to weave in and out of the opponent easier. Effectively, with ZSS it's more poke outside of the opponent's range; with Bayonetta it's more poke around inside the opponent's range with Nair and Dtilt until something gets started. ZSS's Nair and Bair are also incredibly quick and safe to throw out too, again, only boosted by her mobility.

I also want to say Bayonetta's disadvantage state is often overhyped. DISCLAIMER: absolutely one of the best in the game, but Bat Within really isn't as amazing as people like to make it out to be; it is nothing more than a glorified airdodge. If Bayonetta uses Bat Within at the wrong time, it puts her into a worse position than if she could have just airdodged normally. Example: if Mario Up Tilts Bayonetta into his Up Tilt strings into an Usmash, or even Dthrow into Usmash and Bayonetta gets out with a Bat Within, Mario can still regrab her; she'll have eaten the lower damage from the Up Smash but Mario can then regrab her. Meanwhile ZSS still has a frame 3 intangible get out of jail card that not only works as a psuedo-airdodge, but also resets neutral and positioning, allowing her to relive pressure more easily. Bat Within is amazing and life saving in many situations, don't get me wrong, but I would more than likely take Flip Kick with it's properties and usages over Bat Within in most cases. Simply straight up saying Bayonetta's disadvantage state is better than ZSS's is in my eyes very much debatable (and for both sides really; both have their advantages). While not indicative of their disadvantage states on the whole, I will also mention that while it's hard to edgeguard/gimp Bayonetta, certain characters do indeed have the tools they need to gimp her effectively. You do not gimp ZSS as well as Bayonetta.

I will finish by saying that I still believe Bayonetta to be the higher ranked character; in no way is this post an attempt to make Bayonetta look bad, or even make ZSS seem better than Bayonetta. What Bayonetta brings to the table often works more often for one reason or another, and her overall potential is something that is worth placing her higher for in the first place. I will also note that the risk ZSS takes whenever she uses a grab incorrectly is also a big flaw she has, which is something Bayonetta doesn't have to worry about. What this post is though, is an attempt to show how ZSS is not simply "inferior Bayonetta"; she's far from it. I think the fact that ZSS mains like Nairo and Marss haven't switched from her to Bayonetta speaks a lot too. If she really was inferior, I suppose this would have happened by now, a bit like 2ManyCooks with Doc, for example.

(and in case you cannot tell from my signature, I do use both of these characters; one other thing they do have in common is that they are soooo fun to play as and amazing to watch)

 

[|RK|]

I plan on a more in-depth response, but ZSS is way easier to gimp than Bayonetta by MILES. At least from the perspective of my characters.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I plan on a more in-depth response, but ZSS is way easier to gimp than Bayonetta by MILES. At least from the perspective of my characters.

Good; this is how discussion should be.

I look forward to this response.

 

[Yonder]

I think people fear using Game and Watch because of his light combination and lack of reliable kill power. I mean...his u smash rocks but it ain't no Mario u smash you can throw out without worry. It can be for seen due to start up.

But he has something going for him. Between Regi placing great at consistent EVOs, his last win at a big tourney solo, and now Extra placing solo in a 200+ event. Regi and Extra must be playing in a optimal way. Game and Watch I think will thrive off disjoints, edgeguarding due to lingering hitboxes, and above average mobility. And a kick-ass low crouch and wind boxes.

And 9 but lol 9.

He has proven to be at least middle of the mdi tier result wise at this point...can only go up. I can see him upper mid by the end of it all really.


Regarding Bowser vs DK again, I think DK bair and ding dong really seal the gap. Ding dong just seems more reliable from what I've seen personally. Could be wrong. Ever ding dong on Dreamland?

I saw Konga take a game from far behind a Falcon with ding dong on Dreamland last week at Elements (The tournament I didn't say I was in cause I went 0-4 cause I'm so damn rusty from not playing after a year in tourney :/)

 

[|RK|]

I think people fear using Game and Watch because of his light combination and lack of reliable kill power. I mean...his u smash rocks but it ain't no Mario u smash you can throw out without worry. It can be for seen due to start up.

But he has something going for him. Between Regi placing great at consistent EVOs, his last win at a big tourney solo, and now Extra placing solo in a 200+ event. Regi and Extra must be playing in a optimal way. Game and Watch I think will thrive off disjoints, edgeguarding due to lingering hitboxes, and above average mobility. And a kick-*** low crouch and wind boxes.

And 9 but lol 9.

He has proven to be at least middle of the mdi tier result wise at this point...can only go up. I can see him upper mid by the end of it all really.

Isn't G&W usmash better? Invincible for longer, less endlag? Even if you see it coming, you can't really do anything about it other than move away.

 

[Vyrnx]

ZSS' results between her top players compared to top players of other characters have been behind only Diddy, Rosalina, and possibly Sheik these last few months. Just keep that in mind before we start up the "ZSS downward trend" stuff once more.

After Genesis there was a post about how ZSS is 15th in the game at best and loses to ~10 characters, and then that person was quiet while Nairo and Marss' results exploded. Genesis was a subpar tournament for ZSS, RF was as well (a four month gap) and both times there've been opportunistic posts following about ZSS' overratedness.

Cloud being +2 on ZSS is crazy. Nairo is about even with Leo and until this weekend has beaten every other Cloud he's played this year. Choco took Leo to game 5 last week. Marss is relatively even with Clouds. Nairo losing to Tweek this weekend doesn't suddenly shift the matchup from even to -2. Diddy being +2 is similarly untrue. Nairo hasn't lost to any Diddy other than ZeRo this year (and his last two sets vs ZeRo have actually shown signs of improvement) and only once to Zinoto since the patch 14 months ago. Choco beat Edge last time they played, and Marss has beaten Zinoto the last two (or three?) times they've played.

Nairo has said Sheik is ZSS' worst MU. At this point, there really isn't any reason for Nairo not to clean up his Lucina for the MU. ZSS lets Nairo beat every player except ZeRo and recently Mr. R, and Lucina could potentially be a better pick against both of those players--the only problem with that being that Lucina/Diddy and Lucina/Sheik might not end up being better than ZSS in those MUs with ZeRo/Mr. R/Void being forced to develop counterplay against Leo and practice the Lucina MU for playing against Mr. E. Even so, ZSS/Sheik being worse than -1 is very questionable when Sheik has the absolute worst physics when it comes to dealing with rage ZSS since grab, nair, rising/falling uair, and dsmash will all kill her at early percents and there's nothing the Sheik can do after being hit but hope the ZSS messes up. Nairo's last game against Void we almost saw this twice, from a grab and from a rising uair, but Nairo misinputed both times and lost.

Nairo and Marss were the only ZSSs who were top level for a long time, but the way Choco has been playing in 2017, he's been making a case as well. 2017 in general has been a very strong year for ZSS and I know that with this weekend we have to pretend like it hasn't been, but it has.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Nairo and the ZSS/Sheik JMU both agreed that Sheik ZSS is 6:4. Results kinda agree as well. I don't think Cloud and Bayo are quite there, but Diddy and Sheik probably are.

edit:
General consensus is +1=55:45, +2=6:4, +3=7:3

 

[Floor]

Oh, afterthought, I officially hate Lucina now. What a sad case of bandwagoning. Either that or mocking Zero, at least Cloud made more sense as a pocket. Ugh.

Spoiler

Shoulda been a Doctor Mario bandwagoning

I'm not quite sure I understand what's being said here. Bandwagoning? Are you reffering to For Glory? What top players are pocketing/secondary-ing Lucina because of ZeRo?

 

[FamilyTeam]

I also don't even understand what the hell is this mentality of "bandwagoning Lucina" either. She is having a boost in popularity now, but if you mean at top level a lot of the players we're seeing always played her...
I don't see how she makes any less sense as pocket either.

 

[Kofu]

Isn't G&W usmash better? Invincible for longer, less endlag? Even if you see it coming, you can't really do anything about it other than move away.

Overall, yeah, I'd say Game & Watch has the better USmash. It's stronger, is a lot more lenient with its invincibility frames (4-25 over most of his body compared to 9-12 on just Mario's head), and has more combo potential thanks to its absurdly low cooldown (13 frames). It's more useful throughout a match than Mario's, IMO.

That said, I think Mario's is better at kill percents because of its speed. While there are faster USmashes, frame 9 is plenty respectable and IIRC is effectively faster than human reaction speed (you might be able to anticipate the move, though). A Mario suddenly dashing at you at kill percents is a lot scarier than a Game & Watch doing the same thing because of how quickly Mario's USmash comes out. Meanwhile, Game & Watch has the third slowest USmash in the game with a rather small hitbox. It can stuff/counter a lot of aerials and nab kills that way, but it's well into reaction time and is easier to anticipate.

FWIW Mario's USmash has better active frames, has only one frame more than Game & Watch's, and has a bigger hitbox (the directions the two moves cover are opposite, with Mario hitting behind him and Game & Watch in front).

 

[Trifroze]

The thing about ZSS is you can succeed with her with just mobility and aerial spacing + boxing alone without ever relying on grabs or anything high risk, but then in some matchups you get outneutraled so hard you have to rely on grabs and if it works out you might win, if it doesn't you're completely ****ed.

If Bayo tries to play without taking risks (i.e. not going up in the air using specials and accumulating landing lag or using witch time) it looks pretty awkward because she has no mobility without specials, no disjointed pokes or aerials and no fast options up close. She can use bullet arts but then she takes one stray hit and ~20 seconds of bullet art camping is evened out.

Point being Bayo's risky play has a better risk reward ratio but she has to play that game much more than ZSS does. Landing against ZSS is also a lot harder than against Bayo as a result of mobility differences and being aggressive around ZSS' shield is more dangerous at high percents due to her up b straight up killing instead of leading to a combo that sometimes kills (starting to seem like 1/10 of the time at this point).

 

[pichuplayer]

Lucina was placed 8 spots lower than Marth on both the last 4BR Tier List and the last Smashboards Community Tier List. I imagine if Dark Pit were placed 8 spots lower than Pit people would object as well. If Lucina ends up right next to Marth in the next tier list, then I imagine we'll see much less Marth vs Lucina discussion.

I think Marth vs Lucina discussions are generally fine, and I imagine the reason she's brought up recently is because she's starting to get some great results. I also think the "Let's not have this discussion again" is actually worse than the actual discussion. Better to just discuss it for a bit and then move on to another subject.

Also, isn't it interesting that this could actually happen this year: https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...ive-impressions.429826/page-528#post-21321019

Both ZeRo and Nairo are strong contesters for winning EVO, and maybe even Mr. E will manage to pull it off (Tsu and Fataility almost did).

What I hope will happen: In a few months most people will agree that Lucina should be right next to Marth. Then we likely wouldn't see nearly as much discussion.

That downair alone makes him decent at landing in many MUs.

When was the last community tier list? Haven't seen it in months

 

[Bowserboy3]

When was the last community tier list? Haven't seen it in months

It's here: https://smashboards.com/threads/sma...ion-4-complete-break-for-a-few-months.441533/

Admittedly it is a few months old now, and certain characters I feel were boosted up probably a little bit too much because of recent results (coughLinkcough), but it's interesting to see nonetheless.

 

[TDK]

It's here: https://smashboards.com/threads/sma...ion-4-complete-break-for-a-few-months.441533/

Admittedly it is a few months old now, and certain characters I feel were boosted up probably a little bit too much because of recent results (coughLinkcough), but it's interesting to see nonetheless.

You do realize this was before Civil war, right? It was finished before Frostbite, even.

 

[Rizen]

easily has a top tier Usmash. Think of MK's Fsmash in terms of endlag safety but with frame 4 super armor that covers most of his body in the anti-aerial fashion.

I still think is better than but it's pretty easy to argue for either. DK's ding dong is scarier, his CQC game is better, better frame data and mobility. Bowser has special moves that help him land and edge guard but DK's a stronger core character.

From a perspective, fire breath isn't that bad because we out-zone Bowser and we have a disjointed sword and Zair for CQC so Bowser's slower (than DK) frame data gets in the way. He has to approach through a flood of projectiles and deal with clawshot moves that out-range him. It's a lot scarier to fight the heavy with a threatening CQC game and the mobility to chase Link down. Bowser's big selling point is his ability to escaped weight dependent throw combos.

PS I'm not saying Link can destroy Bowser or DK but rather pointing out his pros.

 

[TDK]

Insurrection XVIII (38 Entrants) (Ohio)

1st: Tweek
2nd: Abyss
3rd: Kamui
4th: Keeba

 

[Yonder]

Insurrection XVIII (38 Entrants) (Ohio)

1st: Tweek
2nd: Abyss
3rd: Kamui
4th: Keeba

Is it me, or is DK one of the better characters in the game for taking locals/small events? Imo, possibly...

 

[TDK]

Is it me, or is DK one of the better characters in the game for taking locals/small events? Imo, possibly...

According to his twitter, he went all Bayo. I put DK here because by the time I could get to the stream (Out for dinner) he was using DK against someone so I thought he has went DK for the whole time.

Fixed now, sorry >.>

 

[DunnoBro]

Mario's usmash is overrated since it's one of his 2 kill moves. But it isn't actually the best usmash. M2, Bowser Jr, Yoshi, Ganon, GnW, Pit, Greninja, and even Luigi have equal or better usmashes. (In Luigi's case, killing 8% later but having a larger hitbox, far safer on shield, and the frontal hitbox lets luigi cover cross-ups where mario would have to guess if he should reverse or not)

 

[Yonder]

Mario's usmash is overrated since it's one of his 2 kill moves. But it isn't actually the best usmash. M2, Bowser Jr, Yoshi, Ganon, GnW, Pit, Greninja, and even Luigi have equal or better usmashes. (In Luigi's case, killing 8% later but having a larger hitbox, far safer on shield, and the frontal hitbox lets luigi cover cross-ups where mario would have to guess if he should reverse or not)

Junior has one of the better u smashes? Huh, the more you know. I guess I was just unaware cause he's in the bottom 5 least talked about in the game...

 

[DunnoBro]

Junior has one of the better u smashes? Huh, the more you know. I guess I was just unaware cause he's in the bottom 5 least talked about in the game...

It's essentially a stronger, lower, wider Pit hitbox. It's not even possible to ledge jump/rise/standard past it consistently. (Though fsmash is safer and more rewarding so they only use it like that oos)

 

[TDK]

Rosa's Up Smash is also ridiculous. Comes out on Frame 8 (With Luma's coming out on Frame 10), Rosa's hits from frame 8-16 while Luma's hits from 10-12, with Rosa having head intangibility from frame 7 through frame 16, until the hitbox ends. It also has fairly low cooldown, ending on frame 48, and kills very early. Rosa's by herself has more BKB than Mario's (With ever-so-slightly less KBG) and Luma's knockback blows most up smashes in the game out of the water. It's also technically two hits with Luma, but thanks to both of them being strong kill moves, you usually only need one of them to hit, and it's one of Rosa's best KO options solo.

 

[FeelMeUp]

rosa's usmash is far more busted than mario's imo

 

[DunnoBro]

I didn't mention her cause Luma is what makes it so busted. (Though I think it's still A tier without)

 

[Nu~]

Pit's tho? It's a beautiful anti air but what really sucks is when grounded opponents fall out or simply aren't hit at all

 

[DunnoBro]

Pit's tho? It's a beautiful anti air but what really sucks is when grounded opponents fall out or simply aren't hit at all

Yea, it isn't that strong either. I was grasping there, I think.

 

[Bowserboy3]

You do realize this was before Civil war, right? It was finished before Frostbite, even.

IIRC, most of this was finished before Civil War; the last round (the Wildcard one) was just after it finished, hence why Link suddenly rose up. I remember there being an influx of Link votes, and that was probably the reason.

---

Also, on paper, Rosalina's Up Smash seems better than Mario's, but in practice, they're pretty much identical; Mario's is arguably still better depending on which way you look at it.

While Rosalina's hits higher up and has a few more active frames, Mario's only starts one frame later (frame 8 versus frame 9), and the hitbox on the head is pretty large in comparison to Rosalina's. The intangibility bubble hitbox thingy is also a lot smaller on Rosalina's head. Mario's covers where it should do because of where the hitbox arcs and the size of the actual hitbox. Rosalina's hitbox arcs differently which leaves more of her body exposed, meaning it can still trade with moves if they reach far enough. It's also a little safer than Rosalina's, with it's endlag being 8 frames shorter (frame 40 versus frame 48).

Rosalina's alone is noticably weaker than Mario's, but when combined (with Luma), Rosalina's Up Smash only kills 8% earlier than Mario's anyway; it's not actually much stronger.

They're pretty much on par in their overall usefulness; while you get a bit more power (with Luma) and a few more active frames with Rosalina's, Mario's is a little safer to use and doesn't trade as much due to the intangibility bubble being larger (essentially, because Mario has a fat head in proportion to his body).

 

[Rizen]

I'd take Link's Usmash over Mewtwo's and maybe Pit's (frame 6 is really good though). It's very punishable on wiff but it's huge. It's as wide as Link's ground spin attack in the front, more in the back, and high enough to poke the SV platform. Other Usmashes don't cover nearly the side distance and often not the height of Link's. Frame 10, multihit for 18% but has a small response from counters due to the weaker first hit, punishes air dodges, and it usually kills anyone by 130%.
There are better Usmashes like Bowser, G&W, and Ganon's due to safety and/or power.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I'd take Link's Usmash over Mewtwo's and maybe Pit's (frame 6 is really good though). It's very punishable on wiff but it's huge. It's as wide as Link's ground spin attack in the front, more in the back, and high enough to poke the SV platform. Other Usmashes don't cover nearly the side distance and often not the height of Link's. Frame 10, multihit for 18% but has a small response from counters due to the weaker first hit, punishes air dodges, and it usually kills anyone by 130%.
There are better Usmashes like Bowser, G&W, and Ganon's due to safety and/or power.

There's also the fact that its one of the more dangerous out of shield options due to its ridiculous damage output and kill power (for me the move kills most lightweights like sheik around 95-100% with a bit of rage).

 

[DunnoBro]

Honestly Link's usmash is just perfect for him. I don't think it's universally good, He wouldn't want Mewtwo, Mario, or pretty much anyone else's usmash. And they wouldn't really want his.

He's slow, so he couldn't really frame trap effectively even with those superior frame data usmashes. And it's risky, so lighter characters wouldn't want it. But Link can take those risks. Not to mention, it semi-consistently covers all ledge options but hang/drop. It's a fair bet that SOMEONE will die when Link Usmashes on the ledge.

---

Also, on paper, Rosalina's Up Smash seems better than Mario's, but in practice, they're pretty much identical; Mario's is arguably still better depending on which way you look at it.

While Rosalina's hits higher up and has a few more active frames, Mario's only starts one frame later (frame 8 versus frame 9), and the hitbox on the head is pretty large in comparison to Rosalina's. The intangibility bubble hitbox thingy is also a lot smaller on Rosalina's head. Mario's covers where it should do because of where the hitbox arcs and the size of the actual hitbox. Rosalina's hitbox arcs differently which leaves more of her body exposed, meaning it can still trade with moves if they reach far enough. It's also a little safer than Rosalina's, with it's endlag being 8 frames shorter (frame 40 versus frame 48).

Rosalina's alone is noticably weaker than Mario's, but when combined (with Luma), Rosalina's Up Smash only kills 8% earlier than Mario's anyway; it's not actually much stronger.

They're pretty much on par in their overall usefulness; while you get a bit more power (with Luma) and a few more active frames with Rosalina's, Mario's is a little safer to use and doesn't trade as much due to the intangibility bubble being larger (essentially, because Mario has a fat head in proportion to his body).

Nah, Rosaluma's is better. Hits higher, including platforms, and it's actually notably faster at hitting opponents in front of her. (reverse usmash takes 3+ frames longer, making it a minimum of frame 12) And Mario's trades just as much, if not more due to less range. He also has to wait longer to use it, due to said lack of range.

Ex. Rosa's usmash beats/trades with cloud dair more consistently.

But, all Rosaluma's moves are pretty much the best in their vaccuum. So it's not really a fair comparison to begin with.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Remember we were talking aboutbefore. Well, Songun 2-0 MKLeowith with the second game being a 2 stock

 

[BSP]

Let's not forget the relative safety Mario Usmash has compared to others. You block Mario Usmash, you can likely dash grab him at most. Block a lot of the other contenders except Luigi? They're likely eating a smash themselves .

Edit: GW and Ganon's are even safer than Mario's but significantly slower on startup.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I think Mario has one of the most versatile Usmashes in the game, if not the most. Top 3 easily. Can do basically anything with it

 

[MistressRemilia]

I may be wrong for some of these characters so if someone who saw the stream can double check, i'd be thankful:

Toryumon Weekday Tournament X Studio Sky #3 ( 48 Entrants ):

1st Tsu

2nd Raito ( Lost to Tsu twice )

3rd Paseriman ( lost to Tsu and Raito )

4th Takera ( lost to Kishiru , and Paseriman )

5th Kisha ( maybe , lost to Songn and Paseriman )

5th Songn ( maybe , lost to Raito & Takera )

7th Umeki ( lost to Raito & Kisha )

7th Shu ( Was more relevant in early Smash 4, used & back then, but he may have switched. Lost to Raito & Takera )

Abadango got 9th losing to Tsu & Takera, MKLeo got 17th losing to Songn & Takera.

 

[HoSmash4]

Are people comparing ZSS and Bayo yet forgetting the monster that is ZSS' nair + frame 1 jab combo?

They are similar for sure. Strong advantage+disadvantage,sometimes crazy death combos and both gain a lot off bait and punish but they're still very different.
Bayos fastest grounded move sans WT is frame 7 after all.

Something actually to worth note is that Bayonettas OOS game is pretty underwhelming outside of Witch twist. Hideous rolls, worst spotdodge and rolls in the game in terms of FAF (bat within gives her the earliest immunity to knock back)

a majority of the time, Bayonetta will either OOS witch twist, hold shield or mix in a weak defensive option. Not many characters have the option but you can react to the oos up b and hit her before she can act (FAF 29). Be wary of the witch time invade she catches on which activates frame 5 so essientialy hit her before frame 34 after she initiates WT. If you manage to get on the back of her shield, you can space yourself outside of oos reverse up-b and react to the shield drop and respond accordingly (roll away, spotdodge, oos up b). You might get caught off guard by drop shield turnaround dtilt/oos nairbut that's a pretty daring mixup from her.

 

[Rizen]

If we're looking at moves in a vacuum , that guy everyone forgets lol, has top tier ground moves and with Luma (we need a Luma emote) is top tier most standard moves ie not special moves. Vacuums don't apply in real situations of course.


Speaking of non-vacuums, several of 's moves including Usmash would be amazing on other characters, most notably his Uair and Ftilt but have less potential on him. Ganon's "balanced" by terrible mobility. All of his moves being slow makes Usmash less special on him too. A reason 's Fsmash is dangerous is he has other fast moves to keep you guessing.


About vs 's Usmash: the frame data isn't too different considering the size of Link's. 's hits 9-35 FAF 69 and 's hits 10-45 FAF 78, both with gaps between hits. Link's last hit deals 11% with 33 frames of end lag while 's deals 10 with 34 lag frames. Not that either are safe on shield/wiff. Mewtwo's sliding helps keep him safe more than anything. There's a good case for Link's Usmash being on par with Mewtwo's.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I'm curious, are there any characters you would say have little or no room for growth and why?

 

[Rizen]

I'm curious, are there any characters you would say have little or no room for growth and why?

because he's already on the top. He probably won't "grow" but has such effective tools that it won't matter. If you're good at smash that's all cloud needs.

The bottom 5-8 characters. They simply don't have anything useful enough. Things like Jiggz SH rest aren't versatile and won't fill in for her flaws, especially if people know the MU.
but that might be my ignorance of the character talking :/

 

[Bigbomb2]

I'm curious, are there any characters you would say have little or no room for growth and why?

I only have a high level view of these characters so the mains should chime in:

- I find them to be a little stagnant. There's still solid, just don't seem to be making leaps and bounds at all.
- I feel he's pretty well reached his peak in terms of different tech and set ups, so now it's a matter of his players optimizing what they have.

Overall, the game is still young, so even if you don't have growth with the character, you can still grow in how that character deals in different match ups.