Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Bowserboy3]

Overrated?

Sonic.

Underrated?

F***ing ZSS.

Also Samus to some extent. She's real good actually.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Overrated(I still think he is a great character, but people are placing him ABOVE ZSS and Mewtwo and put him in top tier when his main results bringer (MKLeo especially since Mr.E has been doing a lot worse) is really his only one putting in work recently.

Underrated (This is only in some cases where she is said to be mid tier (like middle of mid tier and not the high end or bottom or high tier like I believe she is in) a character I think most people underrate is . Has great placings with not only just one player (Myryan, Shuton, ImHip, Dabuz sometimes) and his matchup spread is not bad. He is definetly high tier and imo a top 15 character.

 

[Laken64]

That last 2 pages (Re: Ike) have been extremely interesting.

I want to see more character dissections of that nature.

Who else is overrated? Underrated? Did folks finally get used to Corrin's Side B? (A move that always felt a tad overrated)

Speaking of corrin side b I'm thinking of doing a in depth write up in this thread about its weaknesses and how badly people actually let the character get away with it and how badly it's overrated sometime this week (summer break starts for me after this exam today lol)

 

[Illusion.]

Overrated: (she's for sure no longer low tier, but I've seen people say high tier now?)

Underrated: ("no results xD!!") (pls stop putting him in mid tier) (him too)

 

[Bowserboy3]

/ are certainly not overrated in the main aspect; they are absolutely top tier characters. However, I will say they are overrated in placement sometimes. I fail to see them above the likes of ZSS, Mario, Mewtwo etc. I've talked about Sonic being overrated, but I still see Sonic above them too. They're just too good to be high tier, and their MU spread back them up, with nice results to compliment, but compared to the other top tiers, they're pretty tame in general. They're the last two characters I would rank as top tier. When I see people rank them top 8 (I've even see some as high as 6th), I shudder.

is overrated when people claim her to be a solid high tier. She's underrated when people still think she's low tier. She's a solid mid tier in my eyes. In time, I probably could see her developing into a VERY LOW END high tier character; the way ESAM has been playing her recently has been very enlightening and shown she has the ability to combat some once thought tougher MU's. I could maybe see her on the lower end of high tier, but only if her results start to prove otherwise.

 

[|RK|]

a'ight.

To correct you Ike has good air speed but **** air acceleration (0.04). This combined with an below average run speed and even worse walk don't help.

On the mixup front I mentioned earlier, the Arts alone make it trickier to fight Shulk compared to Ike. When it comes to Ike, you almost always know what he's looking for. If you have any other questions regarding Shulk's tools I'm free to answer them.

You are correct about the air acceleration - not so useful for the short hop game, but having a good overall airspeed is good for drifting when high up. Incidentally, he actually has a slightly lower fall speed than Lucario to boot (a character that people often erroneously call floaty), so his disadvantage ain't that awful. Incidentally, his mobility stats are very similar to Shulk's, a character that has the same air acceleration with slightly lower airspeed. Run speed is .02 worse than Shulk's, and Shulk's walkspeed is straight up better.

I guess from there, the conversation is about the arts, but those only last 16 seconds with a 10 second cooldown. They're also rather telegraphed in their usage. I guess they still do add to mixup potential by a lot, but those mixups don't seem excessively powerful? Obviously invincibility on landing is good, as is cancelling landing lag, but that requires you to change arts anyways.

The arts aren't to be understated, of course. But in exchange for that, Ike actually seems to have consistently faster and less laggy moves than Shulk does. Outside of Smash attacks, of course. And then that's backed with consistent power and a weight that allows him to actually abuse rage. Comparatively, I feel Shulk has to take more risks and guess more to achieve some of the same things. From that perspective, having way more mixups is awesome - but also kind of necessary for Shulk.

All in all, I guess I'm odd in that I don't see Shulk as a very strong character when I watch him. I mostly see him as having really strong and smart players, who have to make many guesses and reads in order to be successful. Like the Ganondorf playerbase, but with a much better character. But ultimately, that's just my opinion - realistically, I feel like Shulk and Ike probably aren't far from one another on the tier list.

What do 9b and ikep do results wise in the us?

No clue. But again - I doubt it's heavily results based.

EDIT: Sonic. Sonic is heavily overrated, IMO. I still feel like his neutral is mostly a charade.

In the spirit of the above post, I think Ike is underrated. I feel like he was hyped up in here when his representation was at its peak, and then when his rep dropped, so did that hype. Nothing about his actual meta, both in terms of play and counterplay, have changed since those days. People mention strengths when a character is hot, and weaknesses when they're down.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Who else is overrated? Underrated? Did folks finally get used to Corrin's Side B? (A move that always felt a tad overrated)

Slighty underrated:

Slightly overrated:

Mixed: (Overrated by some, underrated by others), (more overrated than underrated in general though).

 

[Illusion.]

If is overrated, who else could be above him besides ?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Kinda interested in what makes some people think Diddy is overrated, not saying your wrong but I'm curious.

Me personally I find and underrated I think they are both lower mid tier characters. despite being a top tier is rather underrated by a lot of people

Not the worst character in the game (still bottom tier) as well

Can't really look at the roster and see a character that's really overrated at the moment if I had to say one it would be but that's not by much

 

[FeelMeUp]

If is overrated, who else could be above him besides ?

It's actually not quite that. I think he's still top 5 and should never drop below 5th, but he's got a lot of crippling weaknesses that people don't exploit. His vulnerability to cornercamping(most evident in how hard the MU is vs a campy M2), platform camping(can't kill until 150+ if being plat camped), and being landing trapped by burst options are all pretty bad. Fair and Monkey Flip are being exposed lately and aren't nearly as good as people thought they were.
And god, that airspeed alone made me finally drop him.

 

[ElectricBlade]

Slighty underrated:

Slightly overrated:

Mixed: (Overrated by some, underrated by others), (more overrated than underrated in general though).

How exactly is Cloud underrated? I've seen him overrated by a LOT of players.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

How exactly is Cloud underrated? I've seen him overrated by a LOT of players.

To be honest Cloud is making a strong argument to be #1 in the game. He is the only character where 2 or possibly more of his mains seem to place in top 8 at supermajors consistiently. He has been #1 for overall calculated results for a very , very long time only recently being overtaken by Bayo.
Supposed poor MU's for him (Sheik, Bayo) are looking less and less disadvantageous as time goes on. I mean two good Sheik players got easily 3-0'd by Cloud's at Nairo Saga.

I am honestly beginning to think he has no "Bad" MU's anymore

 

[MistressRemilia]

I don't really like the notions of " overrated " and " underrated " because the whole " Top/High/Mid/Low Tier " ends up being rather vague because ultimately, most of us do not agree with the 4BR V3 Tier List, and we can agree that it is indeed outdated. With that in mind, it creates a rather complicated mess to go through.

However, i'll still be sharing my thoughts on two characters i believe could be called " overrated ": Toon Link, and Robin. So why are these two characters " overrated " , you may ask? Well, i'd say that, much like Ike in a less rough way, they've been on the decline for quite a while now: It's been a while since Robin picked up any kind of results that would go along the characters he's nearing, and in 2017, turns out to have done less significant things that would come to my mind than Ganondorf. However, let's not fall into silly arguments and back this argument up: Even though Robin has had his glory days, it's a rather unanimous thought that Robin does not have a good matchup spread against the characters above him, especially top tiers, which are for the most part, ranging from a small loss to a tougher loss to deal with. This is further illustrated by Dath's latest matchup spread, which shos that Robin does not beat any top tier and struggles with what's commonly known as the Top 4 characters. ( The tweet has been deleted it seems, if anyone could find it, or rather, tell me if i'm wrong about this, feel free to do so: I just remember the latest matchup chart of Dath not being so good )
Going into less objective territory here, but i was simply wondering " What happened? How did Robin's results fall off that hard? ", and i believe it comes down to the fact that Robin has been figured out by a fair amount of players. I'm not saying that Robin, once the matchup studied, becomes a non-threatening character, not at all. I'm just saying that, in the past, a lot of mistakes were made that allowed Robin to strike more often than he should. The most commonly known example i'd provide is shielding Robin's projectiles, over simply dodging them. This is an outright wrong decision if done close enough to Robin, allowing him to get a grab and unleash his strong advantage state. This neutral mistake was fairly common and considering the amount of hits Robin needs on an opponent, this probably led into Robin doing better than he should have.

I won't go into much detail about Toon Link because i believe it is a very similar case to Robin. Results have gotten worse & go along a theory that has never truly been good. Toon Link mains are struggling more & more as players have adapted to Toon Link and are aware of his tricks. Back then, the whole pressure Toon Link would apply in neutral would lead into panicky options from many players, even at a fairly high level of play, which would allow Toon Link to strike. This pressure based play was most well illustrated by Hyuga, who was mostly known for his fundamentals & capacity to read through the opponent's options at times where Toon Link was in an advantageous spot.

On to " underrated " characters, i do not have anything in mind other than " Any mid to bottom tier with a solid advantage state ". If playing Smash 4 has taught me something, its probably that theories leaning towards a rise of defensive strategies never truly turned out to be significant. This is often a plus for all of these characters, who usually have an average to below average neutral game. Even with that in mind, it is obvious that it will not allow them to win neutral over their opponents all the time, but more often? Definitly. In the hands of a good player who knows matchups well enough to abuse the most common mistakes done by the players of said characters, this could lead into them possibly winning a set against these players, especially in the current ruleset, as 2 Stocks + BO3 may not leave the necessary time for some players to fully adapt to the characters they're facing, moreso with the rise of anti-coaching thoughts in the Smash community. I wouldn't say that any of these characters are necessarily good, but the fact that, after 2.5 years of the metagame developping, i've been able to witness matchups sometimes called as " the worst in the game " or " really bad " being played at a high even-ish level of play and legitimately close, is a testament to these characters' potential to rise, because in the world of Smash 4, one upset is enough to lead into massive bandwagonning & potentially development of this character into something legitimately solid & consistent.

Edit: On " underrated " , i still wouldn't say that characters such as Falco, or Little Mac, are good characters or capable of much valuable consistency within the current metagame, or even just rise them up in the list. But what they've been able to accomplish a couple of times goes well beyond my expectations, which is why i would call them " underrated " for example, but not necesarily better than anyone they're below.
I would have loved to talk about the whole practical efficiency within Doc's moveset, which make him, in my opinion, a much stronger threat than what most people would believe, but the Doc metagame is about as dead as Miis' metagame and has done less than Dark Pit, which kind of just demoralizes me.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Roy on the other hand is much less well rounded and matchups for him are more distinct and complex. He does well against ZSS, Ryu, Sonic, Lucario, most grapplers, and most zoners. That's great and all but then Sheik, Bayo, Diddy, Rosalina, and Marth come in and **** all over him. Meanwhile the only character that really ****s on Ike is Sheik

No. You have been disqualified following this vulgar display of wrongness. I suppose I have to write something more even tho I shouldnt. Diddy destroys Ike. Diddy without MU knowledge can die fast, but Diddy played the right way shuts Ike down, Also people are wrong about Ikes matchups in general. Gonna wall of text in order to reply to all the people who are wrong about Ike. This time around they better start reading my posts tho. I look back in the thread and I see so many people writing stupid stuff that is wrong despite me having taken the time to explain it all in detail for them. I will be back later. Shape up ffs.

 

[PJB]

To be honest Cloud is making a strong argument to be #1 in the game. He is the only character where 2 or possibly more of his mains seem to place in top 8 at supermajors consistiently. He has been #1 for overall calculated results for a very , very long time only recently being overtaken by Bayo.

I really agree with this. Most often, I hear Cloud mentioned as 3rd or 4th in the game, which I think is fine. If anything, I think thats the low end of where he should belong, but I wont argue rankings within the top 4 right now. But then sometimes I hear that he should really be lower due to a combination of poor recovery or lack of top level results, and I have to scratch my head. Cloud is at worst 2nd based on results, and has an elite neutral, possibly the 3rd best neutral in the game after diddy and sheik and a huge sm4sh factor in limit to go along with it. According to Tweek, his only losing matchup is Sheik and even that one is only a slight loss. Even his "weakness" in recovery is largely mitigated by clever use of aerial drift and conservation of limit, Cloud does get gimped at top level but its really not much more often than other characters outside of those with elite recoveries (Sheik, Bayo, MK, etc)

 

[FeelMeUp]

May be a controversial opinion, but is probably better than at this point.

 

[JayZee1700]

Overrated:
Underrated:

I think is very underrated for what his frame data has to say.
I think is even MORE underrated, but i don't want to be that guy who says a bottom 10 character is mid tier...

May be a controversial opinion, but is probably better than at this point.

As in results?

 

[Nu~]

Slighty underrated:

Slightly overrated:

Mixed: (Overrated by some, underrated by others), (more overrated than underrated in general though).

On what plane of existence is Pacman overrated?

You can't hear enough of top players calling him trash or even bottom 3 LOL

 

[HoSmash4]

Overrated:
Underrated
Need Hyuga back to decide:

Reasoning:
Bayonetta is very rigid in certain zones meaning it's risky using the first move in neutral... so she just camps. Most top tiers can deal with this

Pits: far too honest in a dishonest game
Fox: very strong advantage, can be abused offstage but being able to reset to neutral for free with side-b or force the opponent to give up space otherwise is a pretty good tradeoff. Problem is his results are pretty lacking. Larry carries him hard, whilst not being utterly dominant by any means. No easy way to kill off throws (OP ledgetrap though)
Sonic: his neutral is toxic af but the majority of the top tiers either outframedata him or outpunish him. Struggles a lot to kill if you keep grounded and react to spin moves and attempts to dash in and find a grab. Still amazing and is carried hard by people not having regular sonic practice.

I think the underrated characters are pretty self explanatory

 

[Heracr055]

Tbf I don't think anyone here overrates the Pits. He's vanilla, no sprinkles.

I think Samus is no longer underrated, as IcyMist, ESAM and friends have been performing well with her. Calling her high may be a bit much.

And Ryu is slightly overrated. He isn't scary when you don't give him an opportunity to get in close. And his recovery is easily exploited; look at how easily FOW racks up damage against and gimps Locus at Nairo Saga for a good demonstration.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

As in results?

In results in represenation. When you look at it ZeRo is the only Diddy main at is consistently sucessful at A-S rank competions (Since Zinoto has been in a bit of a slump recently)

Meanwhile we have Komo, Tweek and MKLeo almost consitently placing above top 8 in all majors they attend


Yes. I think its safe to say that Cloud is MKLeo's main at this point. He has been using Cloud a lot more often and he really only brings out his Marth at top levels agaiant certian players such as Ally

 

[Nathan Richardson]

For underrated characters zard is only slightly underrated but he is good at countering cloud. I think anyone who knows they have to go up against him should do some zard labbing as zard is an easy character to figure out. Only problem is that's his ONLY niche.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

No. You have been disqualified following this vulgar display of wrongness. I suppose I have to write something more even tho I shouldnt. Diddy destroys Ike. Diddy without MU knowledge can die fast, but Diddy played the right way shuts Ike down, Also people are wrong about Ikes matchups in general. Gonna wall of text in order to reply to all the people who are wrong about Ike. This time around they better start reading my posts tho. I look back in the thread and I see so many people writing stupid stuff that is wrong despite me having taken the time to explain it all in detail for them. I will be back later. Shape up ffs.

Gee, that's totally not being pretentious, eh?

 

[Frihetsanka]

If is overrated, who else could be above him besides ?

How exactly is Cloud underrated? I've seen him overrated by a LOT of players.

I think he's probably 3rd atm, and lots of people seem to put him around 5th or so.

 

[Illusion.]

Bayonetta is already above him on the tier list so I just left her out based on that.

 

[Lord Dio]

On what plane of existence is Pacman overrated?

You can't hear enough of top players calling him trash or even bottom 3 LOL

Look at compilations of For Glory moments, as well as highlights of tournaments, featuring Pac-man plays. They make the character look godlike with all the tricks and setups. It's become a common joke of how amazing Pac-man's setups are, but he's overrated because people don't realize how extremely difficult those setups actually are.

If only he was actually godlike

 

[C0rvus]

I think Sheik may be being underrated as of late, as odd as that may sound. All three of her states of gameplay are quite good, unlike Cloud and Diddy whose recovery can be insufficient, and Bayonetta whose neutral is lacking. She lacks the manic kill power that allows so many characters to even compete, but given time I think her mains will only become more consistent. Find more setups, and really utilize all of her offensive and defensive tools correctly in more and more matchups, until she may be considered the best in the game. Her tools just seem to leave her with a very high ceiling that will benefit her in the long run, at least at top level.

 

[Y2Kay]

Ryu is kinda overrated. He's good character, but people often get caught playing right into his core strengths.If your learn to respect the raw power of things like up tilt shoryuken, and abuse his low range and mobility, he'd win less than he does already.

 

[Das Koopa]

i haven't done a tier list in ages

most of this isn't ordered within the tiers



-----Top-----


--------High-------


-------Viability Border 1------------ (Characters below this line could conceivably take a major but suffer from poor matchups or particular flaws to their character that make it hard to do so. Generally viable.)

--------Upper---------


--------High Mid-----------


--------------Viability Border 2---------------- (Characters below this line can probably hit top 16-top 8 at major level events or better, but it's unlikely any will win an event, either due to limitations of the character, lopsided matchups, etc. Semi-viable.)

------------Mid-------------


-----------Low Mid-----------


-------------Viability Border 3---------------- (Characters below this line will likely never do particularly well in tournament, aren't likely to be consistently viable. Severely bad matchup spreads, limited kits, extremely exploitable flaws, etc.)

-----------Low-------------


-----------Bottom------------



General ideas behind this

It's not often been discussed, but a fairly definitive "Top 6" has emerged.

ZeRo
Primary:
Secondary:
Pockets:


MKLeo
Primaries:
Secondaries:


Dabuz
Primary:
Secondary:
Pocket(?):


Nairo
Primary:
Secondaries:
Pockets:


Ally
Primary:
Pocket:


Mr. R
Primary:
Secondary:
Pocket(?):

These players generally do the best. Outside of a particularly exceptional event like Civil War where many players were eliminated early, these six players - especially as of late - have demonstrated themselves to be reliably consistent, with all but Mr. R being major winners this year.

TSM | ZeRo: 1st at Nairo Saga
EF MVG | MKLeo: 1st at GENESIS 4
RNG | Dabuz: 1st at Civil War
C9 | Ally: 1st at Greninja Saga
NRG | Nairo: 1st at Momocon 2016

Mr. R is the only player absent of winning majors, meaning I would comfortably place him in 6th, with Komorikiri probably being 7th - as he's another relatively consistent and reliable player. This isn't an attempt at a Melee comparison, this is simply how the cards have played themselves out.

I'd effectively rank these players;

ZeRo > MKLeo > Dabuz > Nairo/Ally > Mr. R

Top 3 character placements at all PGR A Tier events and S Tier events:


Priority A:
2GGC: GENESIS Saga - 1st , 2nd , 3rd

GENESIS 4 - 1st , 2nd , 3rd

2GGC: Midwest Mayhem Saga - 1st , 2nd , 3rd

Frostbite 2017: 1st , 2nd , 3rd

Frame Perfect Series 2: 1st , 2nd , 3rd

2GGC: Civil War: 1st , 2nd , 3rd

CEO Dreamland: 1st , 2nd, , 3rd

Umebura Japan Major: 1st , 2nd , 3rd

2GGC: Greninja Saga: 1st , 2nd , 3rd

Momocon 2017: 1st , 2nd , 3rd

2GGC: Nairo Saga: 1st , 2nd , 3rd


Priority B:

Dreamhack Austin: 1st , 2nd , 3rd

Royal Flush: 1st , 2nd , 3rd

Smash N' Splash 3: 1st , 2nd , 3rd


Trends emerge that are particularly successful for:



Bayonetta has overwhelmingly struggled to consistently be a threat in tournament. Captain Zack placed 4th at both GENESIS 4 and Civil War Saga, but has seen a visible, steady decline of results in the last 1-2 months with a increasing number of blunders - some possible to blame on poor bracket luck, others not. Salem has similarly been very inconsistent, with very high peaks (including a phenomenal losers run) but some pretty deep valleys.

Despite this, I'm of the belief that she retains a top 3-5 spot. We have not seen a player yet capable of combining three key factors;

-Witch Twist conversions
-With Time conversions
-Strong neutral

Bayonetta players at the top level rarely excel in all of these fields. Ikep and Zack are known for good conversions, while Salem is far more of a fundamentals-based player. Mixing these could mark a true outing of Bayonetta's potential, of which plenty exists - and I don't think the threat behind the character really lies in her planking.

For that reason, I'm willing to place her in the top 3 on the expectation that a Bayonetta will capitalize on all of her strengths in due time with the proper dedication.

Cloud has good results on all fronts, but there are a number of caveats to this that prevent me from agreeing that he's #1: Counterplay has shown to transcend traditional matchup knowledge. Japan excels at the matchup due to how common the character is in the region with a wealth of mains - Komorikiri, Masashi, Mao, RAIN, Mattun, Z-Tan, Mangalitza, and many more - all being high level.

As a result, many Cloud players hold onto secondaries, or do not solo-main. Key examples of this exist in cases of what-could-have-been or what clearly was - Leo likely never would've beaten KEN with Cloud, meaning a lack of secondary option on Leo's part would've probably led to a quick 6-0.

Cloud's recovery is not atrocious in a vacuum - he has mixup options - but it's objectively one of the worst in the game limitless nonetheless, and having to spend limit can swing momentum because the loss on limit while in disadvantage severely limits your options. As a result, it's not uncommon to see Cloud's stocks simply disappear, and in a 2 stock format, a loss of one stock early enough will probably tank you. This may be one reason the character is not especially consistent.

Your best Clouds;

MKLeo -
Tweek -
komorikiri -
Javi -

The same issue of needing secondaries does exist for other players, but some of this may simply be player counterpicking. I don't think Mario holds a dominating matchup vs. Diddy Kong, but Ally's playstyle counters ZeRo's, meaning he requires a secondary. With Cloud, I think it's a pretty clear trend that none of them are comfortable soloing the character, and he statistically does not dominate certain top level matchups nearly as you might think. He's supposedly solid vs. Sonic and Rosalina, but the best of the best of those characters can beat pretty much any Cloud with due diligence, or at east keep the set highly competitive.

Diddy Kong is its own story: A lot of people are skeptical of Diddy's status as #1 character and cite that ZeRo winning alone doesn't prove this, but this could be rebuked by pointing out that very few characters have more than one or two solid mains capable of winning events. You could challenge this by pointing out Diddy's very extensive playerbase, but nobody really ledgetraps or puts on the pressure as much as ZeRo - yet we see time and again that, outside of Lucina, his secondaries and pockets do him no good in tournament barring rare exceptions. ZeRo switching mid-set is usually a sign he is very shaken and is attempting to readjust.

In other words, ZeRo's efforts put into characters like Sheik or Cloud remain below the feats of other top players using those characters. I would not hesitate to say that, even if his Cloud could beat most of the game's playerbase, the fact that it couldn't beat Ally - while Komo and Javi both have - say a decent bit about his skill capacity with the character.

...Which simply leads me to believe that putting the right playstyle and mindset to Diddy Kong is something only ZeRo can do right now, but if anybody else could replicate it, then nobody would really suggest that Diddy Kong is an overrated character. What if Edge or Zinoto accelerate at some point and top 8 consistently at major level events? Will this be in dispute? We know the concept is theoretically possible because we already know Diddy can dominate brackets.

Comparing this to Hungrybox where Jigglypuff has an atrocious MU vs. a lot of top level players, and I think the often-cited comparison begins to fall apart - Puff is arguably overrated, with a lot of players not having matchup experience due to her being rare, meaning a particularly dedicated player - like Hbox - who has a natural talent towards his character - can be an undisputed top 3 player.

Gap by MIOM: 2 > 42 > 99
Gap by PGR: 1 > 16 > 36 > 37 > 47, with Edge absent due to prior inactivity.

The gap is even less significant when comparing the lesser amounts of consistency between Sm4sh and Melee. I see this idea brought up on Reddit quite a bit, and I strongly disagree with it. I think Diddy Kong is the best in the game at the moment.

On the other end of the spectrum, I think that it should be accepted by now that Sheik is only as good as other characters like Mario, ZSS, Rosa, etc, because her killing problems are very real. I made a brief post on Reddit a few days ago during Raito vs. Elegant;

Duck Hunt is really a terrible character. You can always pinpoint the number of times the DH player plays correctly but doesn't get the confirm because Duck Hunt is just bad at kill confirming 80% of the time.

Duck Hunt basically needs to take off an extra 40% and kills in the 150+ range while most characters can manage by 120 at the latest. Raito's an amazing player but I feel like he'd be top 30 range if he switched to a more reliable character.

It sucks because Duck Hunt is fun to watch but half the time it's like "well the player deserved the kill and they're outplaying their opponent more in neutral but the lose anyway because Duck hunt can't kill"

He's just not tournament viable if you actually want to win something. I hope he's buffed in the Switch port to be a bit more consistent in how he kills.

"Terrible" is hyperbole, but shades of what afflict him afflict Sheik, where you can totally outplay your opponent but still lose because Sheik's only good at killing in certain circumstances that you may never find yourself in, and as a result, being behind a stock is extremely painful. I think the fact that Sheik has not won a major-tier event since her nerfs are directly correlated with a lack of safe kill confirms - it was the key to making her an oppressively good character. Now she's just good, but fallible.

Sheik's main advantages over Duck Hunt are the greater consistency of the the setups, better recovery, etc., but it often seems like you have to play by different, more grueling rules in order to win playing characters like Sheik.

Hence, I place her among the list of major winners/characters that do semi-consistently well in terms of high placements at majors.

This doesn't go into the rest of my opinions at the moment, but I think that covers my opinion on where the tippy-top characters stand. ZSS, Rosa, and Mario's placements can simply be chalked up to months of consistently good performances.

Some generic add-ons:

- Probably better than some give her credit for with how good down-tilt is. Easily overwhelmed and has grossly bad frame data but her conversions aren't that bad. Still not viable, but probably more stable than Ganondorf or Dedede.

- Overrated. Terribly, terribly overrated, with his supposed top 15 status largely a 2016 relic from when Ranai was generally agreed to be a top 10 player. Ranai has not done well at events for an extended period of time, and while he has some key set wins, his long-standing track record since his frequent attendance at events has been poor. I think this reflects upon Villager being a limited character.

- okay he's not bottom 5

- Potentially underrated but probably the hardest character in the game to use effectively and a lot of his mains do not play the character as optimally as they should. As it stands I think he's on the lower end of the spectrum with potential for sleeper hit growth.

 

[Lord Dio]

Larry put up a SoCal player tier list accordng to him a little under an hour ago
https://twitter.com/LarryLurr/status/875159507722174467
In case it doesn't show:
S+: VoiD, Larry
S: Falln
A+: Elegant
A: Rich Brown, AC, Zenyou, Tyrant
Honorable mention goes to Ito

Combined with This:

It's not often been discussed, but a fairly definitive "Top 6" has emerged.

ZeRo
Primary:
Secondary:
Pockets:


MKLeo
Primaries:
Secondaries:


Dabuz
Primary:
Secondary:
Pocket(?):


Nairo
Primary:
Secondaries:
Pockets:


Ally
Primary:
Pocket:


Mr. R
Primary:
Secondary:
Pocket(?):

These players generally do the best. Outside of a particularly exceptional event like Civil War where many players were eliminated early, these six players - especially as of late - have demonstrated themselves to be reliably consistent, with all but Mr. R being major winners this year.

TSM | ZeRo: 1st at Nairo Saga
EF MVG | MKLeo: 1st at GENESIS 4
RNG | Dabuz: 1st at Civil War
C9 | Ally: 1st at Greninja Saga
NRG | Nairo: 1st at Momocon 2016

Mr. R is the only player absent of winning majors, meaning I would comfortably place him in 6th, with Komorikiri probably being 7th - as he's another relatively consistent and reliable player. This isn't an attempt at a Melee comparison, this is simply how the cards have played themselves out.

I'd effectively rank these players;

ZeRo > MKLeo > Dabuz > Nairo/Ally > Mr. R

This part, with Komo Das Koopas' opinion of 7th best, combiend with the above tweet and a look at results makes me ask:
Where would you guys say Larry Lurr is right now?

 

[NairWizard]

I was just going to post that Sheik's probably the game's most overrated character at this point. I think it'd be hard to sell a case for her as clearly top 5. She has two fantastic players in Mr. R and Void repping her, but her weaknesses as a character get exposed in long brackets. There are too many "guess" situations in smash 4. Sometimes you have to make reads or guesses to get out of bad spots like picking one of three options to get off the ledge, and sometimes your guess gets stuffed out by an f-smash and you lose your stock. That can happen to any character and is a normal part of gameplay, but Sheik can't really put other characters into that spot, and that is ultimately what costs her a top 5 spot in my eyes.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I was just going to post that Sheik's probably the game's most overrated character at this point. I think it'd be hard to sell a case for her as clearly top 5. She has two fantastic players in Mr. R and Void repping her, but her weaknesses as a character get exposed in long brackets. There are too many "guess" situations in smash 4. Sometimes you have to make reads or guesses to get out of bad spots like picking one of three options to get off the ledge, and sometimes your guess gets stuffed out by an f-smash and you lose your stock. That can happen to any character and is a normal part of gameplay, but Sheik can't really put other characters into that spot, and that is ultimately what costs her a top 5 spot in my eyes.

What 5 characters would you put above Sheik if she is not top 5? For a while I was kinda thinking that about Bayo depsite Salem's amazing run at Nairo saga.

Well I guess I will see if Salem can replicate that success or if Zack can accomplish a run like he did at Genesis/Civil War this week at CEO

 

[Nobie]

Bayonetta has overwhelmingly struggled to consistently be a threat in tournament. Captain Zack placed 4th at both GENESIS 4 and Civil War Saga, but has seen a visible, steady decline of results in the last 1-2 months with a increasing number of blunders - some possible to blame on poor bracket luck, others not. Salem has similarly been very inconsistent, with very high peaks (including a phenomenal losers run) but some pretty deep valleys.

Despite this, I'm of the belief that she retains a top 3-5 spot. We have not seen a player yet capable of combining three key factors;

-Witch Twist conversions
-With Time conversions
-Strong neutral

Bayonetta players at the top level rarely excel in all of these fields. Ikep and Zack are known for good conversions, while Salem is far more of a fundamentals-based player. Mixing these could mark a true outing of Bayonetta's potential, of which plenty exists - and I don't think the threat behind the character really lies in her planking.

I sometimes wonder if this theoretical "perfect" player, i.e. one who excels in all categories of a character, might border on the impossible. On paper, it's easy to imagine someone who can be good at, aggression, defense, neutral, advantage, disadvantage, etc. to a incredibly high degree with the mind to switch between these "modes" as is necessary, but what if there's actually something to the human mind that limits this scenario? Like, could it be that the way people learn and retain information means that players are always going to lean in one direction or another in terms of play style, and that all strengths end up related to that even if some of those strengths are weaknesses shored up? What if it's about having a finite amount of time to practice and needing or prioritize how one learns best?

To use an example from Melee, Mang0 has gone on the record saying that he cannot do the "Swedish" style of training, which is based in optimization and taking an almost scientific approach to practice. He's tried it, and it hasn't worked for him. He has to almost "feel" things out, and connect to the on-goings of his game on an intuitive level. Combined with his general style, which is to get you into uncomfortable situations where his superior instincts can kick in, and it means he excels at, well, being Mang0. It's even possible that Melee Fox, being good at EVERYTHING, highlights player difference that much more.

Mang0 can't be Hungrybox. It's clear that he will almost never be able to approach the game with the defensive, patient mindset exhibited by Hungrybox. There's just something wired differently in their two minds that gets them to train in different ways, play in different ways.

What if the thing that makes Zack so good at being aggressive is the thing that holds back his Bayonetta's defensive abilities, such that he might develop it to be good or even great, but not excellent? What if all Bayo players (or any character for that matter) can only access a portion of her full potential because they're human?

And if that's the case, do we judge a character on that "full potential," or just how much of that potential can be reasonably utilized by a top player?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Overrated - Very strong to a some-what stupid degree, yes.
Top 5 best character to take the meta, nope.

Everyone knows Clouds strengths.
However, we don't focus enough on the weaknesses he has. Of course his terrible recovery is the first to come to mind, which I think is debatably bottom 5 even with Limit. (Since the likeness of him having Limit when launched is very inconsistent)
Secondly, his grab games is nothing more then mediocre. Aside from having pitiful grab range, all of his throws don't give him any real advantage minus stage-positioning. With a Down-Throw at very narrow %'s that can sometimes combo, and a Up-Throw that doesn't KO past 180% with rage. (Plus it's predictable animation and DI window don't help it either)
If it weren't for his safe Aerials, (assuming he spaces them) shields alone would make his neutral hellish. (Though we still have yet to master Power-Shielding.)

As of a throw comparable to Puff wasn't enough, the ability to fight close-range ain't strong point for him either. He's got the frame data to make a great sword-fighter, but not a in your face one.
His jab 1+2 (while frame 4) being the only move with a hurtbox (a large one with 30 to 33 FAF) making it too unsafe to poke with, the rest of his attack are either unsafe or just too slow. (Again, grab with no range doesn't help) He just doesn't have a safe option when a opponent with a fast option (Ex: Mario) is in his face.

Last but not least, his size, weight and fall-speed make a good dish for combo food with no escape option before Frame 7, meaning he can get carried off-stage, where he clear doesn't want to be.


In conclusion, I may be comparing a Fish to it's Tree Climbing ability.
But in this meta, you can throw even the Great White's onto trees.

 

[FeelMeUp]

She still seems fine to me. Promise you I'm not saying this with any "Sheik is busted" personal bias, either.

's currently in a weird place. Making top 8 doesn't seem to be an issue, but getting through Dabuz and ZeRo is pretty awful and I'd put money on the loss of any Sheik that has to play against them. Getting past the other good guys like Leo and Ally seems to be a bit of a coinflip, but they do more than fine against Komo, Nairo, Aba, Zack, etc. They even do well against the potential top 10-15 players like KEN and Shuton.

Sheik players tend to beat everyone but 2 guys(ZeRo,and Dabuz).
Both have their own issues attached. I'd say Anti was on here, but....Eh.

ZeRo consistently dominates every Sheik he comes across(and wins the G5 when it's close, RIP VoiD @ G4).
Mr. R has shown that although he can keep up with ZeRo dead even in neutral, win in the punish, and never get ledgetrapped he can't clutch it out due to how bad he is at killing the guy. He's almost got the whole package but is missing the most important part for taking a set. VoiD's lower experience and constant issue with getting grabbed means he dies dumb early, and losing the first stock against ZeRo in Sheik Diddy means you lose the game 90% of the time.
Playing her might be practically hopeless against Dabuz's unless you're playing nearly perfectly and not dropping any setups, so that's all I'll say about him. Sheik Rosa itself is already unforgiving and volatile, but when you add on the fact that you're fighting a guy with a top 5 neutral and better player to player knowledge than anyone else in the world.....yeah, just play a seasoned Cloud. Probably the best decision Mr. R's ever made.

tl;dr Sheik sucks
I definitely respect your reasonings for thinking she's overrated, though.

 

[The-Technique]

Cloud has good results on all fronts, but there are a number of caveats to this that prevent me from agreeing that he's #1: Counterplay has shown to transcend traditional matchup knowledge. Japan excels at the matchup due to how common the character is in the region with a wealth of mains - Komorikiri, Masashi, Mao, RAIN, Mattun, Z-Tan, Mangalitza, and many more - all being high level.

As a result, many Cloud players hold onto secondaries, or do not solo-main. Key examples of this exist in cases of what-could-have-been or what clearly was - Leo likely never would've beaten KEN with Cloud, meaning a lack of secondary option on Leo's part would've probably led to a quick 6-0.

Cloud's recovery is not atrocious in a vacuum - he has mixup options - but it's objectively one of the worst in the game limitless nonetheless, and having to spend limit can swing momentum because the loss on limit while in disadvantage severely limits your options. As a result, it's not uncommon to see Cloud's stocks simply disappear, and in a 2 stock format, a loss of one stock early enough will probably tank you. This may be one reason the character is not especially consistent.

This more or less sums up how I feel towards Cloud. Characters like Diddy, Mario, Rosalina, Fox, ZSS, and Sheik consistently prove themselves as solo viable characters in major tournaments, while Cloud is sometimes switched off depending on the opposing player or character matchup, which strikes me as odd for a character that is supposed to be oppressive against the entire cast.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I think is very underrated for what his frame data has to say.

Unfortunately, frame data can't save him from the likes of Bayo cloud diddy, all three super common mains or secondaries. (especially cloud and Bayo popping up more often)

 

[Aaron1997]

- Potentially underrated but probably the hardest character in the game to use effectively and a lot of his mains do not play the character as optimally as they should. As it stands I think he's on the lower end of the spectrum with potential for sleeper hit growth.

This is so spot on its ridiculous. Most Pac mains don't even play THE GAME correctly (Shots). What I mean is they have bad fundamentals and make the same mistakes. You have no idea how many times I've seen Pac players get obliterated/throw games because they can't adapt at all/they panic because their flashy set-ups don't work then die to rage stuff. Sinji would of Beat Fatailty if he didn't go for a Apple set-up that had a low chance of working. He was out playing Fatality, if he would of been patient, he would of won game 4 and had a high chance in game 5.

About his Grab, its terrible but not useless. Conditioning your opponent to shield ( Really easy for Pac to do) or having something like Hydrant water pushing you/ saving you if you miss. His grab come's out 4 frames earlier then ZSS and is less laggier then her Pivot grab.

(Actually, Pac's grab might be over all less laggy. Pac's grab Active frames though all 3 hitbox's are 12-39 for 76FAF for all grabs but ZSS is 16-25 with 69-72-80 FAF. On paper ZSS grab is more laggy. But ZSS mobility,Reward and Neutral options that Pac doesn't have make up for it) Look at Nairo Hitting so many grabs at top level with on paper a more laggy grab. Goes back to what I was saying about Pac players being bad at the game.

I don't ever seen him higher then Mid tier unless buffs come in. Your not getting far as long as this guy is around. But he punishes you for match-up inexperience more then any other Character. His kill power in theory is great compaired to other Zoners. These guys need to hit a set-up to kill at a decent % but all Pac needs is a random Hydrant on the leadge or bell read and your dead at 90% and can kill confirm with F-air-> Key. Again we need to develop a better neutral then "Play for timeouts".

Also the first stock is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT for Pac because of how hard he can be shut-down. Getting the first stock as pac means your opponent has to play your game and can't steal your fruit to destroy Pac. (Just time them out, they can't do anything when they have item). However losing the first stock means they have no reason to deal with your stuff and can just run down the clock.

 

[Rizen]

I have 's recovery without Limit the same tier as CF's.

My personal recovery rankings are (unordered in tiers):

SS

S

A
(Limit)
B
(Overall assuming good use of both Shield and Jump arts)
C

D
E
F(No Limit)
G
H

Based on if the character is launched offstage, as opposed to upward, their overall ability to recover. This includes distance, how well they can defend themselves, versatility/mixup potential and how dangerous it is to intercept them. Bowser and DK are on the same tier because Bowser has the longer recovery but DK has frame 3 intangibility and disjoint for example.

I think his recovery is bad but downplayed too much. His air speed, high jumps and buster sword are good even w/o limit. The only big downside is his short, non-teching upB and it can drag opponents down with him.

I've got to give my hands a break from typing. Cloud/Bayo/Diddy are top 3, Sheik's 4th, Ike and Samus are mid tier. Das Koopa's list is good. /imo

 

[FeelMeUp]

Oh, I want to add on onto something, actually.
The sentiment that Sheik can't randomly close out stocks is absolutely incorrect.
We've got rage rising fair>bf around 60, bair/fair untechables, needle tech chases to usmash, tipper dtilt>usmash around 70-90, rage crossup uair on slightly lighter characters(), tipper dtilt>ftilt>rising fair>bf on the ledge around 60, nair fs nair near the ledge(broken against)dragdown uair 50/50s on platform, SV platform combos starting at 0, jab jab confirming to grab/dtilt/ftilt on certain characters(), etc.
Most of it doesn't work that well on Battlefield, but every janky Sheik kill you can have ever seen probably functions to full effect on T&C and SV.
It's just....that a lot of the other characters have bs that's so universal it doesn't require you to make microadjustments due to things like character weight, fallspeed and gravity. Dropping Diddy for ZSS made me realize how easy a lot of other characters have with "hit you and you die" scenarios.
With Sheik you have to know you can't jab2>ftilt at 125 because he can Dolphin Slash out and kill you even though it's true on . Have to know that pivot bair isn't safe on hit against certain characters with extremely fast options out of hitstun, while others randomly get bair'd out of a tilt or fair and die to a rage BF at 50.
With ZSS, Bayo, Fox, and others there often isn't a lot you need to account for.