Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Nathan Richardson]

Examples of what exactly?

Sharpy not throwing out unsafe stuff?

No, not sharpy throwing out safe stuff, mix-ups.
I keep hearing zard has mix-ups but when I try to practice them I can't do them. Mainly due to online lag. Mix-ups are essential to making yourself much less predictable (predictability=easy to read and punish) so how do you do mix-ups beyond the obvious dash attack or dash grab?

 

[Pyrover]

I'm in the camp that views Charizard as a midtier, but I know he's traditionally viewed as a low tier.Ehes obviously not great despite looking it on paper, and that brings me to a question. What's wrong with him?

Every other low or mid tier character has some obvious flaw. Shulk's frame data, Ganon's mobility, Zelda's inability to approach, Puff's weight, Pacman's need for space, Falco's neutral, Paulentena's low damage output, etc.

But when I look at Charizard, nothing really stands out as being wrong with him, hence the opinion that he's mid. Perhaps I'm missing something though. What exactly issue that holds Zard back? Is it really just the small playerbase? He's gotten possibly the most buffs of anyone on the roster, so I'm sincerely curious as to what his defining flaw is. And if he doesn't have one, then why don't we see him doing better?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

so how do you do mix-ups beyond the obvious dash attack or dash grab?

Uh...

You just switch strategies.

There isn't any real way to do it. It's reliant on your opponent, your opponent's character and what you've been doing in your play.

What exactly issue that holds Zard back?

1. Disadvantaged state
2. No super easy/applicable kill confirms
3. Lack of representation

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Uh...

You just switch strategies.

There isn't any real way to do it. It's reliant on your opponent, your opponent's character and what you've been doing in your play.

*smacks forehead* oh I get it, make your opponent think you're going to do one thing and then do something else when you catch them in a pattern. Yeah I do that basic Smash 101.

 

[PJB]

- Overrated. Terribly, terribly overrated, with his supposed top 15 status largely a 2016 relic from when Ranai was generally agreed to be a top 10 player. Ranai has not done well at events for an extended period of time, and while he has some key set wins, his long-standing track record since his frequent attendance at events has been poor. I think this reflects upon Villager being a limited character.

This is sadly looking more and more true every day. Villager has terrible matchups with many meta relevant characters (Bayo, Cloud, Rosalina) and his best rep is no longer the dominant threat he once was. Pre DLC some argued him around 11th or 12th, but now I think he may have fallen below the top 20

 

[FeelMeUp]

This ended up being the most one sided Sheik DK set I've ever seen between two top players.
Interesting to take note of the options Javi chose to keep DK in disadvantage AND convert to death. Very reminiscent of the way Cacogen fights Konga at times. Mr. R and VoiD could both take things from this.

 

[|RK|]

No, not sharpy throwing out safe stuff, mix-ups.
I keep hearing zard has mix-ups but when I try to practice them I can't do them. Mainly due to online lag. Mix-ups are essential to making yourself much less predictable (predictability=easy to read and punish) so how do you do mix-ups beyond the obvious dash attack or dash grab?

There are many types of mix-ups tbh.

There are crossups (not sure if Zard has any), tempo changes (shifting from one timing to another), fakes (e.g. tomahawks and such... basically presenting the threat of one move and picking another), playstyle changes (going from defensive to hyper aggressive), etc.

Those are the basics applicable to any character.

 

[Rizen]

YerTheBestAROUND , nothing’s gonna ever keep you down. Also what do you think of the MU? It's one where the best Link players seem to disagree. Scizor thinks it's even, Unknown thinks it's +1, Cat thinks -1, and T thinks even. IMO Marth wins +1 and Lucina +.5.
My logic is Marth can get past Link's projectiles/Zair/grab range and is faster at sword range. He has better sword angles than Link and can wreck him offstage.

Most Links seem to agree he beats

IMO is lower mid tier. Downsides are: Landing on stages like BF with platforms is hell and charizard's head sticking out negates a lot of his grab and forward attack range. He has poor air movement with no fast way to descend either.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i-V6jhXQ1eY

Intresting video of something probably not a lot of people know about. Not necessarily going to be easy to land but it helps solidify my opinion that Puff is not the worst character in the game.

 

[Game7a1]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i-V6jhXQ1eY

Intresting video of something probably not a lot of people know about. Not necessarily going to be easy to land but it helps solidify my opinion that Puff is not the worst character in the game.

This isn't new tech. It's more or less a video proving the Rest can be an option for tech chasing or punishing a missed tech, which is nice, but that's it. Not sure why this would help your opinion given that Puff thrives off of reads and reacts (an opinion that I don't disagree with, but I think more and more people are coming to that same conclusion).

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Which top/high tiers does beat? Explain. You can't come in here and expect us to believe you without a single example.

Although I can't speak for myself, Sinji thinks he beats Diddy (likely as a result of beating dyr at G4), DK, and Luigi.

 

[The-Technique]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i-V6jhXQ1eY

Intresting video of something probably not a lot of people know about. Not necessarily going to be easy to land but it helps solidify my opinion that Puff is not the worst character in the game.

I saw this earlier when GIMR posted it, its a nice tech chase from Puff but...it starts from landing a soft n-air, and only if the opponent misses a tech. I can only think of so many options that most of the cast can use to stuff that approach that don't involve holding shield.

I mean Ganon has his footstool d-air combos, and so does Zelda with her soft d-air reset kill setups...but I think people can still view these characters as candidates for worst in the game.

Although I can't speak for myself, Sinji thinks he beats Diddy (likely as a result of beating dyr at G4), DK, and Luigi.

Dyr also listed Pac Man as a 4:6 losing matchup, basically his worst matchup alongside 2 other characters, which I suspect is a super kneejerk reaction to losing to Sinji...

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Dyr also listed Pac Man as a 4:6 losing matchup, basically his worst matchup alongside 2 other characters, which I suspect is a super kneejerk reaction to losing to Sinji...

Sure you didn't fail a spot check?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sure you didn't fail a spot check?

Not quite. Check the year.
There was a slew of...less than pleasant and reasonable tweets following his loss to Sinji. As bad as it sounds, I think we have enough top Diddy opinions to not need to use the chart of someone like Dyr. Most of his chart is heavily opinion based anyway.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Just going down the list of characters mentioned and giving some brief thoughts.

Duck Hunt has already been discussed and I agree that Marth and Lucina win.

Villager is fairly even imo. They work at the same general range but Villager has some ledge trapping issues. If I had to give an edge, it'd be just a slight one to Marth.

Toon Link is annoying but it's pretty even as well. Just kind of long and drawn out. Catching bombs is a good plan, as well as staying just close enough that Boomerang becomes a risky option.

WFT's neutral is very much lacking against Marth so she hangs around the ledge, but so long as Marth isn't trying to chase her off stage then you can ledge trap her and react to her options. Marth wins.

Pac-Man can rack up damage, but he sucks at killing and having even the slightest bit of knowledge on what his kill options are and how to DI them really exacerbates those issues, but that isn't really a Marth specific thing. Pac-Man can get all the damage he wants but it doesn't really matter if he doesn't get the kill, which Marth does not struggle with. Simply winning the battle of attrition consistently is enough to push the match up into Marth's (and many other characters tbh) favor.

Robin was slightly discussed and I agree that it's just slightly in Marth's advantage.

Olimar is one I need more data on and practice in, I don't have good Olimar near me and the few times I've been able to fight Olimar it's been with Falcon. On paper it seems like it could be really annoying though.

Lucas loses to Marth pretty cleanly. Not nearly as bad as Ness, but it's not a good match up at all.

Mega Man can have some blind spot issues that Marth fair is good at exploiting and he's at the perfect fall speed for some of Marth's combos to link better (Leo Blade). I believe it's slight advantage Marth.

Marth beats ROB. Gyro is pretty easy to work around due having a sword but like with most characters, if you don't know how to use Gyro against ROB then you might be finding yourself a little flustered.

DK either gets bodied or he gets that one neutral win that kills you and takes the momentum of the game with him.

Sonic is even, it's just incredibly boring. It's just camping, never actually approaching on either side, so you kinda just have to wait until one player does and try to react to it so you can punish it, and then the person with the percent lead commits to the role of never approaching. It's not a bad match up in terms of difficulty but it's one I'd much rather go Falcon or Cloud in just so something will actually happen.

What do you think Marth has over Lucas? For me at least, I like to use zair as an extra aerial to avoid having to fight and space properly with Marth's aerials while mixing up my PK Fire usage and use it sometimes to try and catch landings, startup of aerials if they try to challenge PK Fire by intending to get rid of the first hitbox to avoid the second.

Mobility means nothing when you lack the moves to abuse that mobility.
Also Arts are relatively easy to play around. When Shulk has Buster on you should push for the advantage or play as campy as possible and when Shield is activated you should just avoid Shulk till the Art ends etc.
I also find Shulk far easier to juggle when he tries to land due to his lack of landing options. Against Ike I at least have to respect his FF Nair.

All I am saying is that there are reasons why someone could see Ike being better than Shulk.

As for Monado Art Shield Shulk, you can also attempt to do low percent combos when he is at high percent.

 

[verbatim]

for what it's worth most pro Diddy Kong's have either lost to many different Pac-Man players or are ZeRo who plays other characters in the matchup.

Zinoto: Abadango (Little Big House)
Angel Cortez: Abadango (Evo 2015 custom barrels), Sinji x3 or more (various)
Dyr: Sinji (Genesis 4)
MVD: Revan (Glitch 2 unstreamed)

It's not exactly hopeless though. Zinoto hasn't lost at the matchup since 2015, and MVD beat Sinji in their most recent set. I would probably say 55-45 Pac-Man or 50:50

 

[Rizen]

Pac Man wrecks you if you don't know the MU. I was playing it and did terribly at first but got much better after getting down his tricks. IDK about Pac/Diddy :/

 

[C0rvus]

How much of Pac is just smoke and mirrors? Many of his mains or ex-mains seem very dour about the character. I wish Tea or Ginko would come to a US major sometime and let us know what Pac is capable of.

 

[|RK|]

How much of Pac is just smoke and mirrors? Many of his mains or ex-mains seem very dour about the character. I wish Tea or Ginko would come to a US major sometime and let us know what Pac is capable of.

Evidently a lot is smoke and mirrors. Patience alone actually beats many setups, even if you haven't seen them before. That and paying attention to hydrant.

That said, I know some players are trying to develop more of a boxing game with Pac. Then sort of mix in the item play afterwards. Pac Man's buttons are actually pretty decent, IMO. Not amazing, but decent.

 

[Nobie]

I don't know if Pac-Man has an actual advantage over Diddy Kong, but I think it's notable how trampoline interacts with Diddy Kong and exposes some of the character's inherent weaknesses.

One of Diddy Kong's flaws is that he has very low air speed and very low air acceleration. If going with jumps alone, he often can't travel very far. Diddy players typically make up for this through Monkey Flip (which also has the grab/attack mixup built in) and B-reversal popgun/banana. Not only that, but because Diddy's frame data is very good and his ground speed is also above average.

Trampoline basically takes walking/running and regular jumps out of the equation. To easily get over a trampoline, Diddy Kong has to use platforms, expend a second jump, go for a Monkey Flip, or wait it out. Essentially, you've limited his options, and a lot more compared to if Pac-Man were facing other characters.

It's not impossible for Diddy to overcome, of course. It's not like he's Little Mac who has poor air speed, lacks good aerials, and has no specials to artifically improve aerial mobility. But Diddy has a harder time compensating for that slow aerial drift with his other powerful tools the way he could in most matchups.

Watching Sinji vs. Dyr, Sinji would sometimes stand away from Diddy and anticipate the Monkey Flip over the trampoline and land a grab. And if you're successfully landing grabs as Pac-Man, you must be doing something right.

Another kicker is that using the trampoline startup as a frame 1 unblockable actually seems to work very well against Diddy. It's not going to net a stock or do anything drastic, but Diddy's poor air speed makes it harder for him to punish Pac-Man afterwards.

 

[|RK|]

Actually, that post on Diddy vs trampoline reminds me of one other Kirby thing I want to mention...

Gentle reminder that Kirby's air speed is terrible, but his air "mobility" isn't. He has some of the best aerial deceleration in the game, average-ish air acceleration, and multiple jumps. Whereas (outside of Monkey Flip) Diddy suffers an inability to change course once he jumps in a direction, Kirby doesn't have the same issue.

 

[TDK]

I play a fair amount of Pac-Man myself (to the point where I'd counterpick him in a serious set once in a while), but I think he's complete garbage and so much of his kit works against him that he has no place in competitive play, so I'm just not gonna bother with this discussion.

https://twitter.com/komorikiri_SSCF/status/875209033401065477

Continuing with the trend of top X mains ranking the mains of their character, here's Komo's opinion on who the best clouds are.

how do you do that cool thing where it shows the picture of the tweet but you can still click on it?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I think you have to click the media button and throw the link in there.

EDIT: Just read your post for CEO 2017. I like that a lot of players my region are in the bracket. I managed to find one lucas main named ChocoTaco in Pool B3, I hope he does well.

 

[ARGHETH]

how do you do that cool thing where it shows the picture of the tweet but you can still click on it?

I think you have to click the media button and throw the link in there.

Yeah, for example, using the link:

S:Leo
A+:me
A:Masashi Tweek
B:Javi Ned

only my see

— 古森霧 (@komorikiri_Ace) June 15, 2017

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

YerTheBestAROUND , nothing’s gonna ever keep you down. Also what do you think of the MU? It's one where the best Link players seem to disagree. Scizor thinks it's even, Unknown thinks it's +1, Cat thinks -1, and T thinks even. IMO Marth wins +1 and Lucina +.5.
My logic is Marth can get past Link's projectiles/Zair/grab range and is faster at sword range. He has better sword angles than Link and can wreck him offstage.

I agree that Marth beats Link. Unknown is the only one listed who thinks Link beats Marth and his chart is from August of last year so I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt (for lack of a better phrase, I'm sure he had/has his reasoning for thinking it) and assume that his chart is probably just outdated.
Link has some blind spot issues that are easily exploited and can also have a bit of trouble landing his kill moves on Marth reliably, which Marth doesn't have troubles with. Marth is better rewarded for playing in his zone than Link is for his.

What do you think Marth has over Lucas? For me at least, I like to use zair as an extra aerial to avoid having to fight and space properly with Marth's aerials while mixing up my PK Fire usage and use it sometimes to try and catch landings, startup of aerials if they try to challenge PK Fire by intending to get rid of the first hitbox to avoid the second.

Marth has a better neutral and ledge traps and edge guards much better. Lucas can't really force characters to approach so playing patiently allows you to control the pace of the game easier. Marth's punish game tends to push horizontally in this match up too, forcing edge guarding and ledge trapping situations more often.
It's not a complete wash or anything, Lucas does have buttons that allow him to fight back but Marth is just better at exploiting Lucas's weaknesses than Lucas is at punishing Marth's.

 

[PK Bash]

Marth has a better neutral and ledge traps and edge guards much better. Lucas can't really force characters to approach so playing patiently allows you to control the pace of the game easier. Marth's punish game tends to push horizontally in this match up too, forcing edge guarding and ledge trapping situations more often.
It's not a complete wash or anything, Lucas does have buttons that allow him to fight back but Marth is just better at exploiting Lucas's weaknesses than Lucas is at punishing Marth's.

I agree that Marth wins with a significant advantage, but I think you're confusing "Lucas can't force Marth to approach" with "Lucas can't consistently out-footsie Marth". I know Marth can deal with Lucas' zoning fine and I don't want to be a nitpicky git but I just wanted to make this distinction, since Lucas is very good at forcing approaches, much of his viability hinges on it imo. If you're beating Lucas, it's because you're forcing him to approach and/or you're winning the midrange game.
Oh and Lucas' advantage is substantially inferior to Marth's advantage in this MU imo.
No chaingrabs in this game though!

Also, are you people sure you're not selling characters short just because they're not flavour of the month(and overselling some because they are maybe)? Fox (and Mewtwo to a lesser extent) sticks out to me, but I don't want to start something, just some food for thought.
Glad we all seem to agree Sonic is overrated though.

 

[Krysco]

On the last page, Illuminose mentioned that Diddy's dtilt is -9 on shield so just as I've done before with Cloud's Cross Slash, I looked at the options every character has to punish it. Prepare to see 'Grab' a lot.

Spoiler

Grab
Witch Twist


Grab
Whirling Fortress
Item Toss


Item Toss


Grab
Item Toss


Usmash
Grab
Fly


Grab
Nair
(Limit) Climhazard
Item Toss


Grab
Item Toss


Usmash
Grab
Nair
Power of Flight (Intangibility)
Item Toss


Usmash
Grab
Bair
Uair
Rocketbarrel Boost
Item Toss


Ftilt (Arm intangibility but not hitbox)
Grab
Aerial Spinning Kong (Intangibility but not hitbox)


Jab
Usmash
Grab
Nair
Uair
Super Jump Punch
Item Toss


Grab
Item Toss


Jab
Usmash
Grab
Nair
Reflector (Reflecting but not hitbox)
Item Toss


Jab
Usmash
Grab
Nair
Dair
Aerial Reflector (Reflecting but not hitbox)
Item Toss


Grab
Item Toss


Bair
Item Toss


Grab


Grab
Rest


Grab


Grab
Item Toss


Spin Attack
Item Toss


Jab
Dash Attack (Windbox but not hitbox)
Usmash (Super armor but not hitbox)
Grab
Nair
Rising Uppercut


Grab
Dair
Item Toss


Jab
Usmash (Invincibility but not hitbox)
Item Toss


Grab
Dolphin Slash


Jab
Usmash
Grab
Nair
Super Jump Punch
Item Toss


Jab
Usmash
Grab
Nair
Uair
Super Jump Punch
Item Toss


Grab
Dolphin Slash


Usmash
Grab
Bair


Usmash
Grab
Dair
Shuttle Loop
Item Toss


Usmash
Grab
Teleport (Intangibility)
Item Toss


Grab
Hero's Spin


Jab
Usmash
Grab
Nair
Helicopter Kick
Piston Punch
Item Toss


Grab
Item Toss


Usmash (Partial invincibility but not hitbox)
Grab
Fire
Oil Panic attack


Usmash
Grab
Item Toss


Pikmin Pluck
Item Toss


Nair
Pac-Jump
Item Toss


Grab
Item Toss


Jab
Grab
Parasol
Item Toss


Jab
Grab
Nair
Bair
Uair


Usmash
Grab
Nair
Power of Flight (Intangibility)
Item Toss


Grab
Robo Burner (Intangibility)
Item Toss


Grab
Elwind


Usmash (Rosalina)
Grab
Nair (Luma)
Uair (Luma)
Item Toss


Grab
Blazer


Light Jab
Light Dtilt
Usmash
Grab
Nair
Shoryuken
Focus Attack (Armor)
Item Toss


Uair
Screw Attack
Item Toss


Jab
Usmash (Head and arms intangibility but not hitbox)
Grab
Nair
Fair
Bair
Uair
Aerial Bouncing Fish (Intangibility but not hitbox)
Item Toss


Grab


Grab
Aerial Spring Jump
Item Toss


Spin Attack
Item Toss


Nair


Grab
Corkscrew


Jab (Partial Intangibility but not hitbox)
Grab
Super Hoop


Nair
Item Toss


Farore's Wind


Jab
Boost Kick
Item Toss

Just as before, this is only factoring in if the hitbox will come out before Diddy can shield (comes out frame 1), not if the move will connect (for example, due to Diddy's low profile, it is unlikely that Samus' uair or Cloud's nair will connect). I also went ahead and added item toss for every character that produces a hitbox with it on frame 9 or faster even if they can't produce an item themselves since there is the possibility of holding Diddy's banana or a peanut while shielding his dtilt.

If I got any wrong, feel free to correct me and I'll edit the list.

 

[TDK]

Quick reminder that CEO 2017 starts today, not tomorrow, and you can find the thread for it here: https://smashboards.com/threads/summer-of-smash-week-4-ceo-2017.448372/

 

[Jaguar360]

On the last page, Illuminose mentioned that Diddy's dtilt is -9 on shield so just as I've done before with Cloud's Cross Slash, I looked at the options every character has to punish it. Prepare to see 'Grab' a lot.

Spoiler

Grab
Witch Twist


Grab
Whirling Fortress
Item Toss


Item Toss


Grab
Item Toss


Usmash
Grab
Fly


Grab
Nair
(Limit) Climhazard
Item Toss


Grab
Item Toss


Usmash
Grab
Nair
Power of Flight (Intangibility)
Item Toss


Usmash
Grab
Bair
Uair
Rocketbarrel Boost
Item Toss


Ftilt (Arm intangibility but not hitbox)
Grab
Aerial Spinning Kong (Intangibility but not hitbox)


Jab
Usmash
Grab
Nair
Uair
Super Jump Punch
Item Toss


Grab
Item Toss


Jab
Usmash
Grab
Nair
Reflector (Reflecting but not hitbox)
Item Toss


Jab
Usmash
Grab
Nair
Dair
Aerial Reflector (Reflecting but not hitbox)
Item Toss


Grab
Item Toss


Bair
Item Toss


Grab


Grab
Rest


Grab


Grab
Item Toss


Spin Attack
Item Toss


Jab
Dash Attack (Windbox but not hitbox)
Usmash (Super armor but not hitbox)
Grab
Nair
Rising Uppercut


Grab
Dair
Item Toss


Jab
Usmash (Invincibility but not hitbox)
Item Toss


Grab
Dolphin Slash


Jab
Usmash
Grab
Nair
Super Jump Punch
Item Toss


Jab
Usmash
Grab
Nair
Uair
Super Jump Punch
Item Toss


Grab
Dolphin Slash


Usmash
Grab
Bair


Usmash
Grab
Dair
Shuttle Loop
Item Toss


Usmash
Grab
Teleport (Intangibility)
Item Toss


Grab
Hero's Spin


Jab
Usmash
Grab
Nair
Helicopter Kick
Piston Punch
Item Toss


Grab
Item Toss


Usmash (Partial invincibility but not hitbox)
Grab
Fire
Oil Panic attack


Usmash
Grab
Item Toss


Pikmin Pluck
Item Toss


Nair
Pac-Jump
Item Toss


Grab
Item Toss


Jab
Grab
Parasol
Item Toss


Jab
Grab
Nair
Bair
Uair


Usmash
Grab
Nair
Power of Flight (Intangibility)
Item Toss


Grab
Robo Burner (Intangibility)
Item Toss


Grab
Elwind


Usmash (Rosalina)
Grab
Nair (Luma)
Uair (Luma)
Item Toss


Grab
Blazer


Light Jab
Light Dtilt
Usmash
Grab
Nair
Shoryuken
Focus Attack (Armor)
Item Toss


Uair
Screw Attack
Item Toss


Jab
Usmash (Head and arms intangibility but not hitbox)
Grab
Nair
Fair
Bair
Uair
Aerial Bouncing Fish (Intangibility but not hitbox)
Item Toss


Grab


Grab
Aerial Spring Jump
Item Toss


Spin Attack
Item Toss


Nair


Grab
Corkscrew


Jab (Partial Intangibility but not hitbox)
Grab
Super Hoop


Nair
Item Toss


Farore's Wind


Jab
Boost Kick
Item Toss

Just as before, this is only factoring in if the hitbox will come out before Diddy can shield (comes out frame 1), not if the move will connect (for example, due to Diddy's low profile, it is unlikely that Samus' uair or Cloud's nair will connect). I also went ahead and added item toss for every character that produces a hitbox with it on frame 9 or faster even if they can't produce an item themselves since there is the possibility of holding Diddy's banana or a peanut while shielding his dtilt.

If I got any wrong, feel free to correct me and I'll edit the list.

Any character should also be able to foostool Diddy out of that, since max jumpsquat is 7 frames. Some characters obviously get more out of that than others, but since this is Diddy we're talking about, z-drop/throw down Banana after foostool is a potential punish option.

 

[Krysco]

Any character should also be able to foostool Diddy out of that, since max jumpsquat is 7 frames. Some characters obviously get more out of that than others, but since this is Diddy we're talking about, z-drop/throw down Banana after foostool is a potential punish option.

Footstool is a bit of a grey area for me since every character has a different air speed and there's factoring in max range vs min range Diddy dtilt. I'm not sure how many frames it would take for a footstool to occur. Like, with characters that have an f4 jump squat, are they able to footstool as early as f5? Also, don't you only get a phantom footstool if the character you're footstooling is in the middle of an animation, with some exceptions? Not sure if endlag on a move counts. Oh and minor nitpick but there's a single f8 jumpsquat

 

[Jalil]

Yeah, when you footstool someone in the end lag of a move that isn't an aerial or grab, you only get a phantom footstool.
Tho there are a few exceptions, Diddy's dtilt isn't one.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Found two more lucas mains in the bracket today for CEO.

ChocoTaco - Pool B3 https://smash.gg/tournament/ceo-2017/events/super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/brackets/111599/383309

PSYCH (also known as Sonderin) - Pool B3 https://smash.gg/tournament/ceo-2017/events/super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/brackets/111599/383326

Spaghooti - Pool E4 https://smash.gg/tournament/ceo-2017/events/super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/brackets/111599/383326
If you know a lucas main attending or are one yourself, including secondaries, feel free to drop a comment.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I agree that Marth wins with a significant advantage, but I think you're confusing "Lucas can't force Marth to approach" with "Lucas can't consistently out-footsie Marth". I know Marth can deal with Lucas' zoning fine and I don't want to be a nitpicky git but I just wanted to make this distinction, since Lucas is very good at forcing approaches, much of his viability hinges on it imo. If you're beating Lucas, it's because you're forcing him to approach and/or you're winning the midrange game.
Oh and Lucas' advantage is substantially inferior to Marth's advantage in this MU imo.
No chaingrabs in this game though!

Bolded is what I was trying to get at but didn't phrase well due to being tired lol.
Tbh, I don't think it's a significant advantage but also that might just a difference in how we define match ups.
Lucas:Marth isn't nearly as bad as Ness:Marth, for example, which is something I'd put at significant advantage for Marth.

 

[|RK|]

Random thought - I think Rosa is the most "dominant" top tier. Not necessarily #1, or even #4. But I feel like many other top tiers have +1s on the cast or so. I feel like Rosa actually shuts a large majority of the cast down, at the cost of some terrible MUs for herself.

 

[TurboLink]

Mobility means nothing when you lack the moves to abuse that mobility.
Also Arts are relatively easy to play around. When Shulk has Buster on you should push for the advantage or play as campy as possible and when Shield is activated you should just avoid Shulk till the Art ends etc.
I also find Shulk far easier to juggle when he tries to land due to his lack of landing options. Against Ike I at least have to respect his FF Nair.

All I am saying is that there are reasons why someone could see Ike being better than Shulk.

I've been gone for too long if some people are starting to think Shulk might be better than Ike. I just can't see it and I agree with everything you just said regarding cheesing Shulk while he's using Monado Arts. As a previous Link main I would always just camp or stay on the defensive when Shulk uses a Monado Art I don't want to deal with, especially Shield.

 

[TDK]

Random thought - I think Rosa is the most "dominant" top tier. Not necessarily #1, or even #4. But I feel like many other top tiers have +1s on the cast or so. I feel like Rosa actually shuts a large majority of the cast down, at the cost of some terrible MUs for herself.

I agree with this. Out of all the top tiers, Rosa has the most one-sided matchups in her favour against non-bottom tier characters, despite the bad Cloud and worse MK matchup. Having +3s against and +2s against and more, all of those being very viable and relevant characters, is a much bigger deal than having +4s against all the low tiers.

And she's the only character in the game to have a real claim to beating Sheik, so there's that.

 

[ARISTOS]

I agree with this. Out of all the top tiers, Rosa has the most one-sided matchups in her favour against non-bottom tier characters, despite the bad Cloud and worse MK matchup. Having +3s against and +2s against and more, all of those being very viable and relevant characters, is a much bigger deal than having +4s against all the low tiers.

And she's the only character in the game to have a real claim to beating Sheik, so there's that.

We should consider ourselves very lucky that Rosa has never been a popular character pick.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Luma's jab 1-2 infinite (on Shiek) is still in the game and I see Dabuz use like two repetitions of it when he lands it near the ledge, but he rarely shows it off.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Luma's jab 1-2 infinite (on Shiek) is still in the game and I see Dabuz use like two repetitions of it when he lands it near the ledge, but he rarely shows it off.

Pretty annoying with rage because of how ambiguous it is when connecting with nair or uair. You never know when they'll throw the aerial or which aerial they'll do. Sometimes causes rage nair deaths near the ledge at 80.

 

[Hippieslayer]

This is a really arrogant way to say nothing. You did pretty much exactly what I said.

Summary:
- Comparing jabs (large part of post, but doesn't actually say anything... conclusion here is "worse than Marcina's, better than Cloud's")
- Repeating points about mobility (the person you replied to said it "wasn't terrible," not "good." On top of that, you don't really say anything meaningful here. I think we concluded Ike's recovery is effective, but could be countered better?)
- Matchups (you listed characters without reasons, then said it's hard to know his MUs, THEN said no one is really an expert on them)
- MU inexperience (another odd tangent, since you believe Ike is straightforward... wouldn't that mean MU inexperience wouldn't be that much of a factor? It's about how you use the "straightforward" tools. Solid fundamentals would go into effect more than surprise...)
- Then you go into a comment about Ryo and San, and as we established, the former mostly sticks to locals and plays most FE chars, while the latter is busy with real world responsibilities.

Then you say you proved something at this point? And you want to be condescending on top of that?

Of course I had to repeat myself. People weren't getting it. ****ed up on the mobility part by strawmanning even when it wasn't necessary. Part about jab was necessary, Ike's jab is good but not amazing and it has relevant weaknesses, jab lacking range on a character lacking grounded movement speed means said jab wont be able to punish correctly spaced moves a lot of the time and that he will struggle to cover enough distance doing dash>shield>jab something Ike has to rely quite a lot on. This is very relevant for Ike since his jab is like his only quick OOS option AND a way for him to convert into grab and thus into combos and kills. You just seem to lack reading comprehension thinking these things don't matter. When you mention his jab you never go into detail at all, you never demonstrate any knowledge of what its pros and cons are in actual combat.

And so what if I said its hard to know the exact nature of his matchups and that I'm not an expert on them? I seem to know more than most everyone here bar perhaps San but he isn't willing to go into detail regarding why he thinks Ike is mid tier anyway, and for all his skill I doubt he could. The man has been rocking Ike since the brawl days and likely to be quite biased anyway. Irregardless would love to hear more from him.

And no, Ike being simple doesn't mean MU inexperience matters less, it just means getting MU experience is easier. Learning to play vs Ike isn't very hard.

I did go completely overboard with the arrogant condescending tone and I did it on purpose for the luls... very surprised I've received no warning or anything for it. But it was deserved anyway. I go into detail about how Ike works in the different states of play, and I go into detail about the strengths and weaknesses of his most important tools and you go on to post crap like this afterwards:

- Ike's scary stuff is actually pretty safe on shield (his aerials)
- Ike has poor disadvantage, but abuses rage better than most other characters (obv not the grapplers tho)
- Ike is simple, but he's not lacking many essential tools. He has a huge disjoint, good airspeed to match, a good, quick grounded button in jab, a good grab game + a throw to cap a stock out.

That's just not arguing, its just listing what you perceive to be pros. And some of if it is incorrect factually and all of it has been dealt with in greater detail by me earlier on.

-Ike has plenty more scary stuff than aerials and his aerials are really only safe on shield if done retreatingly (I went into detail about this earlier on in the thread you either didnt read it or you didnt get it)

-Ike having poor disadvantage is true but has also been explored in greater detail already. Same with his abusing rage. I wouldnt say he's worse at abusing it than the grapplers seeing as Ike has scarier normals than all of them and rage enables Ike to kill with said normals.

-Then you say "Ike is simple but" and go on to list a bunch of stuff without any context, says absolutely nothing about how things work out for Ike in actual matches. And again it has all been dealt with already in greater detail.

Rizen Lol, you did not demonstrate Ike being able to play footsies well In that post. What makes you think you did? PS, Ike isn't good at footsies if you stay out of his initial jab range his only quick option is dtilt which is very unsafe on shield. And don't reply to someone if youre gonna ignore them afterwards, goes without saying.