Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Rizen]

Roy on the other hand is much less well rounded and matchups for him are more distinct and complex. He does well against ZSS, Ryu, Sonic, Lucario, most grapplers, and most zoners. That's great and all but then Sheik, Bayo, Diddy, Rosalina, and Marth come in and **** all over him. Meanwhile the only character that really ****s on Ike is Sheik

When you say "does well" is the in the low tier context of "doesn't get destroyed by"? Who does Roy go even with or beat?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Bayo

Well, unless you're Nojinko...

 

[san.]

I remember talking with San about the future of Ike long time ago and he did mention that people aren't staying grounded enough and are jumping way too. I also remember there being some discussion about using crouch more in neutral. Being able to avoid some moves and punishing them after without need to worry about being forced to suffer shield stun is a big deal for a character like Ike.

I dunno about the future of Ike in singles, but he will stay relevant in doubles due to his high sweeping ability, stock tanking ability and his easy team combo set ups.

Since I was mentioned, just going to talk about this part. Ike needs to play air->ground and ground->air, there are times for both. The crouching thing was for a few specific scenarios that has become commonplace and well-used since I made that comment a long time ago.

Ike doesn't have enough of his best players going to tournament. My situation for example, is that I'm often busy at work, and many larger East Coast Tournaments have become more sparse without a 10+ hour drive. As far as low tier or not, I welcome being able to play in low tier tournaments, but my thoughts on the character hasn't really changed within the last year where he's somewhere in the middle.

Something that was mentioned earlier was his lack of grounded pokes. I think dtilt is still a fairly decent move for that purpose until you reach higher levels of play where you can get punished for whiffing once you become predictable. I think it would've been perfect had they not nerfed his jab so much, making it okay instead of a great tool. Dtilt is still good when spaced and mixed with perfect pivots, and has the reward to make up for the risk. Uthrow may not be Bowser/DK good, but it's still a pretty consistent confirm at low rage, and even with rage has a very high 50/50 margin and can be used with fair/uair/nair interchangeably.

Could go into more detail, but have to leave.

 

[BSP]

I'm not a data head so I have no idea how significant this is.

Will that 1 frame difference matter much on the way forward?

If Pac Man Fsmash was one frame faster, he could F smash Falcon for raptor boost on block. If Mario Dair had 1 more frame of landing lag, Pac could drop shield Ftilt him for landing on his shield with it. 1 frame matters

 

[The-Technique]

Ike doesn't have enough of his best players going to tournament. My situation for example, is that I'm often busy at work, and many larger East Coast Tournaments have become more sparse without a 10+ hour drive. As far as low tier or not, I welcome being able to play in low tier tournaments, but my thoughts on the character hasn't really changed within the last year where he's somewhere in the middle.

Yes, THANK you. This is what I've been saying since this conversation started.

 

[Nah]

Random question, what's the frame positivity/negativity on shield for Sheik's late n-air?

It's apparently +1 on shield drop

Honestly, I'm not sure how Shulk is much better. Their tools seem remarkably similar on paper. Shulk just seems like he has to work harder to access his.

idk about you, but when 2 of the 5 Monado Arts significantly improve Shulk's mobility I'd kinda think that alone would make him at least a bit better than Ike.

 

[Routa]

Mobility means nothing when you lack the moves to abuse that mobility.
Also Arts are relatively easy to play around. When Shulk has Buster on you should push for the advantage or play as campy as possible and when Shield is activated you should just avoid Shulk till the Art ends etc.
I also find Shulk far easier to juggle when he tries to land due to his lack of landing options. Against Ike I at least have to respect his FF Nair.

All I am saying is that there are reasons why someone could see Ike being better than Shulk.

 

[Rizen]

If I had to order them, >> but they're all mid tiers. The specific order isn't important. are both low tiers.

A few things from the Nairo saga: kudos to Ven getting 49th solo . She still bottom- I mean "lowest" tier but it shows you can't sleep on any character in SSB4.
gets 2nd, only after ZeRo at a super Major; when will people acknowledge she's damn good? Does anyone still think she's lower than top 4?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

gets 2nd, only after ZeRo at a super Major; when will people acknowledge she's damn good? Does anyone still think she's lower than top 4?

I don't really bother with stuff like this as I don't really care. The character itself is completely static patches notwithstanding.

 

[Deleted member]

Mobility means nothing when you lack the moves to abuse that mobility.
Also Arts are relatively easy to play around. When Shulk has Buster on you should push for the advantage or play as campy as possible and when Shield is activated you should just avoid Shulk till the Art ends etc.
I also find Shulk far easier to juggle when he tries to land due to his lack of landing options. Against Ike I at least have to respect his FF Nair.

All I am saying is that there are reasons why someone could see Ike being better than Shulk.

Shulk's nair is safer on block and has less landing lag, but okay.

Shulk is much better at landing than Ike. Intangible landings through MALLC and MALLC airdodge are actually threatening, and Jump Art alone means you should be landing safely against most characters.

Buster is an Art that should be strictly used in advantage state. I don't use it against speedy characters often for this reason. Shield can be camped out but being able to escape certain low to mid percent combos + rack up Rage is always way more useful.

 

[Illusion.]

It (the tier list) was bad when it was released, by now its also dated, you cant refer to that thing in a serious discussion because its a mess. I won't even try having a discussion using it as a reference point. It needs a complete rehaul, not just adjustments.

Okay, so, what makes it bad (besides Corrin being too high)?

 

[TDK]

2GGT: MSM Saga (229 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: KEN
2nd: Kameme
3rd: VoiD
4th: MKLeo
5th: Mistake
5th: Captain Zack
7th: Komorikiri
7th: 6WX
9th: Ranai
9th: Larry Lurr
9th: Salem
9th: Zinoto
13th: Cosmos
13th: quiK
13th: Locus
13th: Javi

Spoiler: rest of top 32 if you want to use it, it's stacked enough

17th: ScAtt
17th: Nicko
17th: Abadango
17th: Samsora
17th: IcyMist
17th: Razo
17th: Elegant
17th: Skylar
25th: Speclar
25th: Pink Fresh (took the place of Lorica, a no-show, due to not being entered in the bracket in time)
25th: K9Sbruce
25th: Shoe
25th: Raito
25th: Ned
25th: Aarvark
25th: Aperture

 

[Game7a1]

2GGT: MSM Saga (229 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: KEN
2nd: Kameme
3rd: VoiD
4th: MKLeo
5th: Mistake
5th: Captain Zack
7th: Komorikiri
7th: 6WX
9th: Ranai
9th: Larry Lurr
9th: Salem
9th: Zinoto
13th: Cosmos
13th: quiK
13th: Locus
13th: Javi

Spoiler: rest of top 32 if you want to use it, it's stacked enough

17th: ScAtt
17th: Nicko
17th: Abadango
17th: Samsora
17th: IcyMist
17th: Razo
17th: Elegant
17th: Skylar
25th: Speclar
25th: Pink Fresh (took the place of Lorica, a no-show, due to not being entered in the bracket in time)
25th: K9Sbruce
25th: Shoe
25th: Raito
25th: Ned
25th: Aarvark
25th: Aperture

I thought Speclar also plays . If he didn't use Puff and went solo Mario, that's fine. Still, good on him to place that well.
EDIT: After some investigation, I did find out that Speclar mostly with Puff.

 

[Frihetsanka]

2GGT: MSM Saga (229 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: KEN
2nd: Kameme
3rd: VoiD
4th: MKLeo
5th: Mistake
5th: Captain Zack
7th: Komorikiri
7th: 6WX
9th: Ranai
9th: Larry Lurr
9th: Salem
9th: Zinoto
13th: Cosmos
13th: quiK
13th: Locus
13th: Javi

So much for "Corrin is mid tier". Same placement as Locus, and everyone placing higher than Cosmos is pretty much a top 50 player anyway (aside from Mistake). I agree that Corrin isn't top 13 (top 14 at best, and potentially lower), but mid tier? Eh.

Ranai plays Mega Man now? MkLeo plays Mega Man? Kameme placed higher than MkLeo and Void? Huh.

 

[|RK|]

So much for "Corrin is mid tier". Same placement as Locus, and everyone placing higher than Cosmos is pretty much a top 50 player anyway (aside from Mistake). I agree that Corrin isn't top 13 (top 14 at best, and potentially lower), but mid tier? Eh.

Ranai plays Mega Man now? MkLeo plays Mega Man? Kameme placed higher than MkLeo and Void? Huh.

And this is another reason PGR doesn't count locals.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

So much for "Corrin is mid tier". Same placement as Locus, and everyone placing higher than Cosmos is pretty much a top 50 player anyway (aside from Mistake). I agree that Corrin isn't top 13 (top 14 at best, and potentially lower), but mid tier? Eh.

Ranai plays Mega Man now? MkLeo plays Mega Man? Kameme placed higher than MkLeo and Void? Huh.

Despite the large amount of players it's still a weekly, one that occurred two days after a super major. I really wouldn't look too hard into the results.

Also who is still saying Corrin is a mid tier. This has hardly if ever happened.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Despite the large amount of players it's still a weekly, one that occurred two days after a super major. I really wouldn't look too hard into the results.

Also who is still saying Corrin is a mid tier. This has hardly if ever happened.

Some people on Reddit don't think she's even Top 20, but they're perfectly fine with saying DK is Top 20.

 

[TDK]

Ranai plays Mega Man now? MkLeo plays Mega Man? Kameme placed higher than MkLeo and Void? Huh.

Ranai was going Mega Man to celebrate MSM 100. Him and Leo Mega Man dittoed game 1 of their set, which Leo won.

 

[Nah]

So much for "Corrin is mid tier". Same placement as Locus, and everyone placing higher than Cosmos is pretty much a top 50 player anyway (aside from Mistake). I agree that Corrin isn't top 13 (top 14 at best, and potentially lower), but mid tier? Eh.

mate it's 13th at one tournament, relax

Also who is still saying Corrin is a mid tier.

Hi

or do I not count or something?

Upper mid specifically btw

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Speaking of stacked weeklies with MSM Saga, has anyone (though I suppose only Texas players would care) seen SFC 97? It featured various top players from other regions such as Javi from Mexico, Dath from Florida, and AC from SoCal (to further add to this, they were also featured in Texas regional Battlegrounds 4).

Perhaps this less notable region might be getting more popularity these days, especially with the recent DreamHack being the first major in Texas?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

mate it's 13th at one tournament, relax


Hi

or do I not count or something?

Upper mid specifically btw

Upper middle not that bad a place to be. When I think mid tier my mind goes to a character that's just sorta there, not bad not good sorta like Pit. I'd say Corrin is more good than bad.

Some people on Reddit don't think she's even Top 20, but they're perfectly fine with saying DK is Top 20.

Reddit isn't a place where I'd go to find super serious opinions often, just saying.

 

[Yonder]

Upper middle not that bad a place to be. When I think mid tier my mind goes to a character that's just sorta there, not bad not good sorta like Pit. I'd say Corrin is more good than bad.

Reddit isn't a place where I'd go to find super serious opinions often, just saying.

I think DK is better than Corrin personally. DK is just dang good in this game. You have a speedy death machine with the best kill confirm in the game that won't die. Great tilts, alright smashes, 3 amazing aerials near the top of their class. His disadvantage sucks yeah, and he doesn't have much presence facing forward in the air as opposed to backwards...Corrin just doesn't make me fear as much with a shoddy project tile, mediocre mobility, and no similar kill confirms. DK strikes me as a bottom high tier like Luigi. Corrin feels like a spot or two lower.

 

[my_T]

I think DK is better than Corrin personally. DK is just dang good in this game. You have a speedy death machine with the best kill confirm in the game that won't die. Great tilts, alright smashes, 3 amazing aerials near the top of their class. His disadvantage sucks yeah, and he doesn't have much presence facing forward in the air as opposed to backwards...Corrin just doesn't make me fear as much with a shoddy project tile, mediocre mobility, and no similar kill confirms. DK strikes me as a bottom high tier like Luigi. Corrin feels like a spot or two lower.

Lol you can't be high tier with a MU spread like DK's. Corrin's MU spread is definitely better.

 

[Das Koopa]

I present: The dumbest thing a top player has conceived in at least two weeks.

S: Salem
A+: Zack,
A: Pink, JK, Mistake
B: Lima, 9b, chag, ikep, Tyroy, child
C: Mystearica, Riot, Saj

— Salem (@SalemBane_) June 13, 2017

It's ordered by the way

Normally I'd do a bigger breakdown but this sort of speaks for itself. It's such a mess lol.

 

[Yonder]

I present: The dumbest thing a top player has conceived in at least two weeks.

S: Salem
A+: Zack,
A: Pink, JK, Mistake
B: Lima, 9b, chag, ikep, Tyroy, child
C: Mystearica, Riot, Saj

— Salem (@SalemBane_) June 13, 2017

It's ordered by the way

Normally I'd do a bigger breakdown but this sort of speaks for itself. It's such a mess lol.

He made the 2nd biggest loser run in history,beat the Bayo killer, and placed 2nd in a major.

I guess he's still in adrenaline mode...until an upset occurs. Kinda inconsiderate either way for Salem.

 

[Illuminose]

i don't think the top 2 placements there are the issue. it's how absurdly dumb the ones beyond that are, like 9b and ikep being hilariously low.

 

[Laken64]

I think DK is better than Corrin personally. DK is just dang good in this game. You have a speedy death machine with the best kill confirm in the game that won't die. Great tilts, alright smashes, 3 amazing aerials near the top of their class. His disadvantage sucks yeah, and he doesn't have much presence facing forward in the air as opposed to backwards...Corrin just doesn't make me fear as much with a shoddy project tile, mediocre mobility, and no similar kill confirms. DK strikes me as a bottom high tier like Luigi. Corrin feels like a spot or two lower.

Sure DK may have fearsome strengths, but with such a poor and volatile mu spread () with those above him and his abysmal disadvantage stage that many characters can convert to high damage and a kill its too much for him to be high tier imo (I think he's high mid). There are times where DK looks like a top tier killing you at 65-70% with little to no effort and others were he looks like a low tier, not even being able to play the game at all ( are brutal). We haven't seen anything like Hikarus performance at civil war ever since though Konga is on the rise up. Personally I think there is more that needs to be seen from to make things more clear though I think I've think I've got the jist of atm.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Speaking of stacked weeklies with MSM Saga, has anyone (though I suppose only Texas players would care) seen SFC 97? It featured various top players from other regions such as Javi from Mexico, Dath from Florida, and AC from SoCal (to further add to this, they were also featured in Texas regional Battlegrounds 4).

Perhaps this less notable region might be getting more popularity these days, especially with the recent DreamHack being the first major in Texas?

The Dath matches were great.

I have not watched them yet, but those are the matches I am interested in.

 

[TDK]

I present: The dumbest thing a top player has conceived in at least two weeks.

S: Salem
A+: Zack,
A: Pink, JK, Mistake
B: Lima, 9b, chag, ikep, Tyroy, child
C: Mystearica, Riot, Saj

— Salem (@SalemBane_) June 13, 2017

It's ordered by the way

Normally I'd do a bigger breakdown but this sort of speaks for itself. It's such a mess lol.

I can agree with JK and Mistake being relatively high, but 9B and ikep are massively underrated here, and Pink is so hilariously overrated. I'd do:

S: Salem, Zack
A+ ikep
A: 9B, JK, Mistake
B: Tyroy, Pink Fresh, Saj, Child, Lima
C: Chag, Mystearica

 

[Lord Dio]

Someone brought up Black Yoshi, another notable bayo.

 

[Krysco]

This is the first I've ever heard of this 'Mistake'. Is s/he someone with a name change (like that one Sonic main?) or is s/he an up and coming player or perhaps one that doesn't travel much? Or have I just been totally oblivious to this player? There's so many notable Bayo mains that it's hard to keep track of them all. Just surprises me since I've heard of Pink Fresh, Saj, Child, Tyroy, ikep and 9b and with either Salem or TDK, those players are listed below Mistake.

 

[Illuminose]

This is the first I've ever heard of this 'Mistake'. Is s/he someone with a name change (like that one Sonic main?) or is s/he an up and coming player or perhaps one that doesn't travel much? Or have I just been totally oblivious to this player? There's so many notable Bayo mains that it's hard to keep track of them all. Just surprises me since I've heard of Pink Fresh, Saj, Child, Tyroy, ikep and 9b and with either Salem or TDK, those players are listed below Mistake.

mistake is a bayonetta (primarily) and zss player, pr #2 in ontario behind blacktwins. he doesn't travel much, but he does very well in-region. he went to frostbite and placed 33rd, beating icymist and losing to zero/zinoto. he went to midwest mayhem 8 and placed 17th, losing to zinoto and jj. at nairo saga, he beat javi, ned, eon, and ven after losing to zex early in winners to make 17th place, at msm yesterday, he placed 5th, beating zinoto, 6wx, javi (again), and razo. i'd be lying if i said i'd watched him much, but he's clearly very good.

 

[Krysco]

mistake is a bayonetta (primarily) and zss player, pr #2 in ontario behind blacktwins. he doesn't travel much, but he does very well in-region. he went to frostbite and placed 33rd, beating icymist and losing to zero/zinoto. he went to midwest mayhem 8 and placed 17th, losing to zinoto and jj. at nairo saga, he beat javi, ned, eon, and ven after losing to zex early in winners to make 17th place, at msm yesterday, he placed 5th, beating zinoto, 6wx, javi (again), and razo. i'd be lying if i said i'd watched him much, but he's clearly very good.

Oh ****, seriously? Nice, might run into him down the road then since I'm in Ontario.

 

[|RK|]

I present: The dumbest thing a top player has conceived in at least two weeks.

S: Salem
A+: Zack,
A: Pink, JK, Mistake
B: Lima, 9b, chag, ikep, Tyroy, child
C: Mystearica, Riot, Saj

— Salem (@SalemBane_) June 13, 2017

It's ordered by the way

Normally I'd do a bigger breakdown but this sort of speaks for itself. It's such a mess lol.

I mean, it's his opinion based on what he sees from other Bayos, presumably. He shares info with these people and sometimes practices with them.

It's not necessarily going to be based on hard results.

 

[blackghost]

I mean, it's his opinion based on what he sees from other Bayos, presumably. He shares info with these people and sometimes practices with them.

It's not necessarily going to be based on hard results.

What do 9b and ikep do results wise in the us?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I can agree with JK and Mistake being relatively high, but 9B and ikep are massively underrated here, and Pink is so hilariously overrated. I'd do:

S: Salem, Zack
A+ ikep
A: 9B, JK, Mistake
B: Tyroy, Pink Fresh, Saj, Child, Lima
C: Chag, Mystearica

S: Salem (best neutral), Zack (best movement)
A: ikep (great conversions), 9B (great combo game, would be S if he didn't SD so often), Tyroy (great neutral), Mistake (latest results I guess? I haven't watched much of him tbh)
B: JK, PF (his Witch Time conversions are fantastic tho), Saj, Child, Lima, Wonf
C: Chag, Mystearica

This is my opinion as far as I've watched.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I present: The dumbest thing a top player has conceived in at least two weeks.

S: Salem
A+: Zack,
A: Pink, JK, Mistake
B: Lima, 9b, chag, ikep, Tyroy, child
C: Mystearica, Riot, Saj

— Salem (@SalemBane_) June 13, 2017

It's ordered by the way

Normally I'd do a bigger breakdown but this sort of speaks for itself. It's such a mess lol.

Tbh, what does it matter past the first two. If Salem thinks that way, whatever, let him think that way. If those other players care and disagree with him then they should just prove him wrong by working hard.

 

[Illuminose]

i mean, 9b is the third best bayo by almost any quantifiable metric. top 5 in japan, top 16 at two super majors (genesis/civil war), 4th at umebura japan major, tournament wins and other top 8 performances in japan, and wins over many of japan's elite (kirihara, choco, shuton, komo, ranai, edge, hikaru, etc) are pretty hard to compete with. he sds much less frequently nowadays, has pretty much the most disgusting punish game out there, and plays a relatively solid neutral. the main weakness in his play is that he could use witch time more, but he definitely makes the witch times he does use count. he has a very solid grasp on abusing bayonetta's strong options and maximizing his punishes. it's really hard to argue with 9b's resume when no other bayo beyond the top 2 has results to rival his.

 

[PK Gaming]

That last 2 pages (Re: Ike) have been extremely interesting.

I want to see more character dissections of that nature.

Who else is overrated? Underrated? Did folks finally get used to Corrin's Side B? (A move that always felt a tad overrated)

 

[FeelMeUp]

Diddy Kong is overrated.
Olimar is underrated.