Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Shady Shaymin]

Spoiler: election stuff

Before any more competitive discourse occurs I'd like to take a second to express my solidarity for all the people of color, lgbtq individuals and women in this thread who are likely undergoing a world of stress and pain over the events that have transpired in my country tonight.

 

[BSP]

Does the can spawn on F1?

Yes. Someone mentioned it not too long ago and I just tested it with Mac jab at point blank vs DH inputting can. Can comes out and explodes, breaks up the exchange.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

i've never searched that before but......let me verify....

Wait no

Does the can spawn on F1?

Comes out on frame 1 and lasts for 2 frames, Duck Hunt actually has fairly decent frame data overall when looking at the numbers.
Might be a dumb question here but I barely know anything about DHD other than frame data, but can't he get a 50/50 on certain characters out of up throw?

Spoiler: election stuff

Before any more competitive discourse occurs I'd like to take a second to express my solidarity for all the people of color, lgbtq individuals and women in this thread who are likely undergoing a world of stress and pain over the events that have transpired in my country tonight.

Please, for sanity's sake, don't bring politics onto Smashboards. We argue over who's the better top tier, not who's the ****tier soon-to-be president
Also I doubt Hillary will do anything for lgbt in her lifetime, if the woman can laugh about getting a rapist off scot-free she can laugh at a movement thats loudest voices are those of hormonal teenagers on the internet ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Das Koopa]

Just want to chime in with Bowser/Wario 2016

#NoBuffs4Puffs

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Lets not bring politics here, please.
I'd like this to be the one place where I don't have to see the constant whining.

This place already has constant whining regardless

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Spoiler: election stuff

Before any more competitive discourse occurs I'd like to take a second to express my solidarity for all the people of color, lgbtq individuals and women in this thread who are likely undergoing a world of stress and pain over the events that have transpired in my country tonight.

Thanks king

Onto smash, I wish we would continue our chat about optimal play, because I believe we still have misconceptions about it not being fun, or stale, or w/e.

 

[Deleted member]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Well, this certainly isn't good. Mr. R said that this might affect him as well.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Ignore this

 

[G. Stache]

Only talking politics because it directly relates to smash . As long as MK Leo and Mr. R have been getting into the U.S. LEGALLY, then no. There should be no problem getting to American smash tournaments (also, as much as Trump wants it, I can't see the wall actually happening anytime soon). Trump only wanted to crack down on illegal immigrants.

ANYWAYS, I don't want to talk politics anymore. Question about Bayonetta: how do people with good boxing games fare against her (characters like the plumbers, Fox, etc.). I'm still not as knowledgable about her as I should be, and I'm really confused about how well she deals with those kinds of characters once they get up close. Can someone please elaborate a bit more?

 

[|RK|]

Only talking politics because it directly relates to smash . As long as MK Leo and Mr. R have been getting into the U.S. LEGALLY, then no. There should be no problem getting to American smash tournaments (also, as much as Trump wants it, I can't see the wall actually happening anytime soon). Trump only wanted to crack down on illegal immigrants.

ANYWAYS, I don't want to talk politics anymore. Question about Bayonetta: how do people with good boxing games fare against her (characters like the plumbers, Fox, etc.). I'm still not as knowledgable about her as I should be, and I'm really confused about how well she deals with those kinds of characters once they get up close. Can someone please elaborate a bit more?

Last note about politics - I think when important events happen, people forget that we're kind of a community within this thread. We don't really talk to this group anywhere else (for the most part).

---

I think she deals with them very well. Especially Fox. But her disadvantage game is too good for pure boxing to be enough. I think good grab/ranged games are more important - it gives safer ways to apply damage without having to worry about her turning your strings into her strings.


---------------------

NEW NEWS (rumors):

http://letsplayvideogames.com/2016/...ed-until-2017-smash-bros-switch-port-arrives/

Smash Switch port is actually confirmed by Laura Dale now, but not for launch. So that's a minor heads up. It'll contain all of the WIi U DLC. Anything more than this is super speculation - Laura Dale has gotten most other things right about it, so if you get rumors anywhere...

 

[Mega-Spider]

Last note about politics - I think when important events happen, people forget that we're kind of a community within this thread. We don't really talk to this group anywhere else (for the most part).

---

I think she deals with them very well. Especially Fox. But her disadvantage game is too good for pure boxing to be enough. I think good grab/ranged games are more important - it gives safer ways to apply damage without having to worry about her turning your strings into her strings.


---------------------

NEW NEWS (rumors):

http://letsplayvideogames.com/2016/...ed-until-2017-smash-bros-switch-port-arrives/

Smash Switch port is actually confirmed by Laura Dale now, but not for launch. So that's a minor heads up. It'll contain all of the WIi U DLC. Anything more than this is super speculation - Laura Dale has gotten most other things right about it, so if you get rumors anywhere...

Shall the #BuffthePuff brigade commence once again? Or any "buff this character," and "nerf this character," campaign for that matter?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So...Zenyou got 3-0'd by a Duck Hunt. Lost games 1-2 as Mario and lost game 3 as Cloud. Interesting...

Why are people still surprised about Mario losing to 'random' characters in 2016? Nearly every character has a realistoc chance to beat Mario. Mario's great because he's flexible and he can take on just about every character at this point, even the best ones [except arguably Sonic].

But he's not an opressive character, he doesn't dominate anybody and if he happens to lose to mid- or low-tier character it's not actually a big upset.

Question:

What's keeping Corrin's disadvantage state from being downright awful?

Nothing.

 

[ARISTOS]

Last note about politics - I think when important events happen, people forget that we're kind of a community within this thread. We don't really talk to this group anywhere else (for the most part).

---

I think she deals with them very well. Especially Fox. But her disadvantage game is too good for pure boxing to be enough. I think good grab/ranged games are more important - it gives safer ways to apply damage without having to worry about her turning your strings into her strings.


---------------------

NEW NEWS (rumors):

http://letsplayvideogames.com/2016/...ed-until-2017-smash-bros-switch-port-arrives/

Smash Switch port is actually confirmed by Laura Dale now, but not for launch. So that's a minor heads up. It'll contain all of the WIi U DLC. Anything more than this is super speculation - Laura Dale has gotten most other things right about it, so if you get rumors anywhere...

I'll be worried if this thing gets new characters/no GC support. It would be bad for the scene in general.

if you want to talk or vent I'm open to it, through msg or pm. Sun will shine tomorrow

 

[The-Technique]

Yeah but Zenyou didn't just lose with Mario, he got 2 stocked while playing as Cloud. That's definitely suspect.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I'm more excited to see what smash looks like when the state with the most top players legalized pot
Maybe some more creative mixups ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[MushroomKiller]

So I kinda disappeared from Smash for a while but decided to check back in after months of absence.

Holy hell I did not expect the meta to advance at such an alarming rate. is considered Top 3 now? What? There was a point, right after the nerfs, when she was barely considered Top 11. I remember all being considered bad match-ups for her, and now her worst match-up is only which is arguably even? What happened? Any links to tournament videos showcasing her progression through the meta would be great.

If anything I hope it'll spark some discussion on who is apparently the new waifu.

Anyway don't mind me, I'll just go back to the other competitive game where speeding Brazilian musicians, bubble-shielding Russian bodybuilders, and badass Egyptian sniper grannies are all the meta these days.

 

[L9999]

So I kinda disappeared from Smash for a while but decided to check back in after months of absence.

Holy hell I did not expect the meta to advance at such an alarming rate. is considered Top 3 now? What? There was a point, right after the nerfs, when she was barely considered Top 11. I remember all being considered bad match-ups for her, and now her worst match-up is only which is arguably even? What happened? Any links to tournament videos showcasing her progression through the meta would be great.

If anything I hope it'll spark some discussion on who is apparently the new waifu.

Anyway don't mind me, I'll just go back to the other competitive game where speeding Brazilian musicians, bubble-shielding Russian bodybuilders, and badass Egyptian sniper grannies are all the meta these days.

Salem came back to Smash 4 and slayed almost every top player in the world exploting Bayonetta's multiple followups and DI mixup exploiting. Then Captain Zack beat Dabuz's Rosa so hard than he got forced to use Olimar. Bayo's also got good with Witch Time reads and edgeguarding. Bayos got better at the Diddy MU, Ness players disappeared so who knows, Salem beat Kameme and Toon Links and Bayos both agree it is even.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm more excited to see what smash looks like when the state with the most top players legalized pot
Maybe some more creative mixups ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Easy money for others against with dem dulled reflexes/too relaxed attitude. Would not be a smart thing to use before a tournament.

Though watching a top player suddenly drop their controller midmatch and grab a cheetos bag because they can't contain themselves anymore would be amusing.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Easy money for others against with dem dulled reflexes/too relaxed attitude. Would not be a smart thing to use before a tournament.

Though watching a top player suddenly drop their controller midmatch and grab a cheetos bag because they can't contain themselves anymore would be amusing.

A more positive attitude could help with people who choke under pressure and in small doses it doesn't really do anything to your reflexes.

Idk I'm just hoping for a random stoner captain falcon player to go wreck everyone in tournament

 

[outfoxd]

Yeah but Zenyou didn't just lose with Mario, he got 2 stocked while playing as Cloud. That's definitely suspect.

It looked like Zenyou started getting frustrated, which is what DH can do. Cans ability to cover multiple options and bait bad choices is aggravating if you don't commit to removing the option or the DH won't let you

 

[Fenny]

So I kinda disappeared from Smash for a while but decided to check back in after months of absence.

Holy hell I did not expect the meta to advance at such an alarming rate. is considered Top 3 now? What? There was a point, right after the nerfs, when she was barely considered Top 11. I remember all being considered bad match-ups for her, and now her worst match-up is only which is arguably even? What happened? Any links to tournament videos showcasing her progression through the meta would be great.

If anything I hope it'll spark some discussion on who is apparently the new waifu.

Anyway don't mind me, I'll just go back to the other competitive game where speeding Brazilian musicians, bubble-shielding Russian bodybuilders, and badass Egyptian sniper grannies are all the meta these days.

The recent success of Salem, Zack and Pink Fresh has made apparent that she has the tools to fight basically every matchup in the game without any significant hassle. Also the fact that her advantage has evolved to a point where she can win most MUs in the game off the sheer amount of reward she gets.

 

[Megamang]

The fact they made the cast into smash characters then added a character from a game where she fights tons of enemies at once using ridiculous tools meant to CC giant demons also helps her considerably.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

On the topic of characters that beat Bayonetta/even with Bayonetta other than top tiers like Diddy and M2, I think Greninja still has a great shot
I honestly think that right now most Greninjas don't play the MU right. Against Bayonetta you should be trying to play almost entirely in the neutral, only going for guaranteed punishes and not even really pressing an advantage. Greninjas on the other hand forget about both that and the neutral half the time because they can SSHC out of things sometimes

Idk tho, I'm still learning Greninja. Someone who mains/secondarys him like @Chainz. could probably give a lot more information

 

[chaos11011]

ImHip's ledge trap game 1 of the Zenyou set was exactly what I was saying when I say Duck Hunt is a monster when covering the ledge. Imagine that coverage while optimized. He has to be at least top 10 ledge trapper.

 

[NairWizard]

I honestly think that right now most Greninjas don't play the MU right. Against Bayonetta you should be trying to play almost entirely in the neutral, only going for guaranteed punishes and not even really pressing an advantage.

I'm sorry, but what?

How exactly does one not play the neutral?

And why would you not press an advantage?


Wtf.

 

[L9999]

The recent success of Salem, Zack and Pink Fresh has made apparent that she has the tools to fight basically every matchup in the game without any significant hassle. Also the fact that her advantage has evolved to a point where she can win most MUs in the game off the sheer amount of reward she gets.

Sounding like.

I'm sorry, but what?

How exactly does one not play the neutral?

And why would you not press an advantage?


Wtf.

I think he means that a player wants to get a flashy combo and not being patient about their options ( zone/don't commit when you don't have to). Bayo has Witch Time and Witch Twist, pressing an advantage is hard.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I'm sorry, but what?

How exactly does one not play the neutral?
.

ignore your neutral tools and just try to hit something without putting any thought into not getting hit yourself, I guess playing an extremely unsafe neutral would have been a better way to put it

And why would you not press an advantage?

Doing something that's just a few frames from being true could be the death of you with Bayonetta, a frame 4 combo breaker and a frame 5 middle finger is never fun

 

[Sleek Media]

Fair enough. Can defo see him having a top 3 runaway game, keep in mind though his projectiles kinda suck so vs chars with strong projectile games he'd probably still be forced to approach (would love to see him vs Megaman).

We don't know for sure what the counterplay around this is or could be, and he didn't particularly dominate customs-on meta (usually stuck around high tier at that time) so I'd still rather this than leaving him banned, at least for a trial period.

A while ago (year-ish?), Boss turned my Mega inside out with Mii Brawler. It's just a worse version of the Mario MU. All the same combos with the added benefit of an upB that kills in combos or OoS, and a freakin' ZSS flip kick which makes it straight up impossible to catch him. If you are even a millimeter out of place, nAir can eat a pair of pellets and connect with the soft spot, which starts a combo. The character is so fast, you'll be out of place more often than not.

 

[Piipp]

Tbh Small Brawler would probably beat MegaMan about as bad Mario does.

MegaMan struggles against zone-breakers and a lot of shorties due to the fact that pellet spacing is super hard because of their speed and size. It's super easy for them to get in and deal damage.

Idk how Brawler does when he gets in, but if it's anything like Mario or Pikachu, then I could see Small Brawler a solid pick against MegaMan.

 

[Megamang]

But does SSHC even help though? Its considerable lag makes it seem like youll just get witch twisted again for even trying unless you land a hit.


The way CaptainZach was able to cover airdodges with the uair was an eye opener, and extremely concerning for me. Dabuz airdodging was just another bad option against him; he could fall and recombo with uair. It seemed like he just went into mashing uairs if he saw an AD, with a decent attempt at timing, but... if people can hit ledge getups consistently, bayos will be hitting the airdodge every time in a few months...


How would a TAS DI bayo ladder? I know it would go flying, but in which direction? Because abusing the 2x SDI multiplies may be the only hope we have to not have bayonetta dittos at every national...


Nairo took out Salem, but a character like ZSS is so vulnerable to WT i dont think it is an answer at all... im actually kinda concerned about bayo being beatable in half a year. If it takes a top 5 player 3 sets to figure out one bayo, pretty much no one has a solid chance... but her MUs dont seem to be variable.

Ice climbers started of abk is... yea.

 

[Yikarur]

You "just" need to learn all her combo Options and try to apply the proper SDI to the final hit before the finisher.

- If she hits you with the second after burner kick after she did a DJ after burner kick to Catch your DI you can SDI forward + up so, she can't follow with upair.
- if she hits your with the second dj witch twist after the second abk you can try DI out of it to escape upair BUT she has a second double jump left. You have to beware that.

And there are a lot of combinations. It's super hard but maybe we learn how to DI her combos by calculating which options are left in the future.
I'm super curious how Bayonettas (anti-)metagame will look like in the future

 

[verbatim]

Of all the top tiers Bayonetta is probably the least known in terms of counter-play. I doubt she'll ever drop below top 5 but I would expect her to fall as people get better at SDI and laming her out.

On that subject, for her amazing punish game, she doesn't have that good of an approach game. I would expect the future anti-Bayo metagame to be primarily small, midweight+, and campy characters that can SDI somewhat reliably out of Witch Twist and lame her out with the lead, so Diddy Kong, Sonic, and Pikachu. That the last two are really hard to edgeguard so that's another plus in their favor, and Diddy Kong's already been doing well with this gameplan.


Marth probably does okay since learning how to stun jacket would discourage her from naircamping back.


I'm hesitant to say that Sheik and Greninja would do okay since they're both easily combo'd and Sheik dies really early. Weight actually matters a lot in the matchup since it pushes back how early she can kill you off the top. I've seen superheavies live to ridiculous percents because they keep popping out of Witch Twist at the top.

 

[Funbot28]

It's just that Bayo has so many tools in her kit to mix up her options which is why I believe she can adapt to counter play against her by applying new tech and stuff (which does exist, especially Crouch Cancelling shenanigans). It's hard to tell if she will get better or worse in the future, but my initial thoughts learn towards the former instead of the ladder due to her great tournament results as of late.

 

[FeelMeUp]

SDI up still saves every non-Fox character from the WT>Uair followup outside of some really silly rage interactions so I don't know where the whole "X character dies off the top so early" comments are coming from. This isn't ZSS or MK where getting hit wrong at the right percent means a ladder death. You can almost always stop it from happening.

If you play Fox, however, there is no hope. Personally dropping Fox outside of the DL/BF counterpick because the DLC league vs Fox is such an irritating uphill battle.
Ryu Utilt, Bayo WT/Fair, Cloud Nair, etc.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I mentioned it before, but the issue has with is that all of his approach options are suspect to either Witch Time or Witch Twist . Sonic also seems to struggle dealing with Bayo's lingering hitboxes on her airiels that can knock him right out of his spin dashes. Sonic can win if he gets the lead and just plays campy and defensively as he possibly can. However If Bayo gets a significant lead...well if characters are forced to approach Bayonetta unsafely, they just about already lost

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1PfJ5uL-NM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIEiGM09OW0

Both these matches end up going down to Salem and his opponent hanging back both trying to get the other to approach them tring to get the lead and captialize but it also shows Sonic struggles when behind in this MU

 

[Shady Shaymin]

When it comes to DLC, it kinda seems like Diddy is the only character that actually beats all of them.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Also surprised that only Mewtwo and Mario have been brought up to potentially leave top 10. I can see the thought process behind believing either case but no mention of ZSS or to a lesser extent, Rosa. Opinions on ZSS seemed to drop pretty hard when she was hit by the last batch of nerfs. She went from being one of the 3 godesses or whatever prepatch Sheik, ZSS and Rosa were called to not even being mentioned for top 3s or 5s or whatever arbitrary number people like to pick. As for Rosa, people getting better at fighting her by disposing of Luma more frequently and her bad MK mu but then I guess Mewtwo probably has more reason to leave top 10 than her with his lower weight and not having a pincushion to help him out.

Ridiculously late response to this I know, but a little extra ZSS discussion never hurt anyone.

The great thing about ZSS, and I'd imagine why few currently argue against her being top 10, is that she gets out of a disadvantaged state better than practically any other character. With a borderline ungimpable recovery, great mobility, Flip Jump's generous intangibility frames and (to a MUCH lesser extent) her stall-then-fall Dair, ZSS can get out of sticky situations and juggles better than practically anyone else. Further to that, ZSS can make herself very hard to hit against a lot of characters if she so chooses, what with Zair and side B, as well as great panic options in her FTilt and 1 frame Jab.

Seriously though, having such a good disadvantage game is an enormous asset in the context of tournament-level Smash 4. Several other top tier characters have very exploitable disadvantage states in one way or another - Fox is the most notorious example, but there's also Rosa, Cloud , Diddy Kong (to an extent) etc. Only Sheik and Bayonetta really compete with ZSS in terms of disadvantage game.

There's also the rather epic scare factor from up B ladder kills and Flip Jump gimps...

I'd imagine the reason ZSS gets comparatively little attention despite impressive results is that she's largely seen as something of a Bayonetta-lite these days.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

When it comes to DLC, it kinda seems like Diddy is the only character that actually beats all of them.

I thought Diddy had a slightly bad MU with Cloud, or is that MU considered even now?

 

[HoSmash4]

I thought Diddy had a slightly bad MU with Cloud, or is that MU considered even now?

Nah. Diddy is super good at edgeguarding cloud, As well as abuses clouds bad ground game

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Diddy vs Cloud is a wildly inconsistent matchup.

He does make Cloud look kind of bad though once he manages to establish a lead.