Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[KenMeister]

In case anyone didn't believe me about Kirby being that bad, I asked around different discord servers the other day, with a slight bit of my own opinion and other Kirby players added. Here's the results:

 

[Deleted member]

In case anyone didn't believe me about Kirby being that bad, I asked around different discord servers the other day, with a slight bit of my own opinion and other Kirby players added. Here's the results:

I'm curious as to what makes Shulk/Kirby even, especially if Kirby doesn't get a hold of Monado Arts. Could you fill me in on that?

 

[bc1910]

In case anyone didn't believe me about Kirby being that bad, I asked around different discord servers the other day, with a slight bit of my own opinion and other Kirby players added. Here's the results:

As bad as this already is, a substantial portion of those -1s look like they could be -2s to me.

 

[Myollnir]

You clearly have no idea of what a bottom tier character is if you even consider that Kirby might be one of them.

Yes, he is low tier due to how unreliable he is a solo main. Yes, his ability to perform in a matchup is dictated by how good his combo game, crouch & edgeguarding are, but that gives him a few niches. I'd rather play a character that does well against some top & high tiers than play a character that only has a handful of even/positive matchups.

However, he's more difficult to play than what most people think, due to his absence of non-commital moves and how much he relies on being able to know and execute every combo perfectly (he has a lot of guaranteed ones, especially off of one grab or U-Tilt). Why bother picking him up as a secondary then? You'd achieve easier results with a Top tier.

The character has some room to grow, but since there's no actual representation, that's not gonna happen. And even if the character happens to do something decent at a stacked tournament, it won't be as solo Kirby.

Nobody will care about Kirby until we see some high-level play, which is quite frankly not likely to happen anytime soon.

 

[TurboLink]

Duck Hunt is not low tier.

Are you going to explain why you don't believe Duck Hunt is low tier?

 

[|RK|]

So is it possible that we could talk about Kirby and how he could be a potential bottom tier when his MUs and lackluster results are put into play? I've seen too many people still label the character as mid tier or "not that bad" when his approach/neutral seems legitimately worse than like 90+% of the cast

To be fair, most of these opinions are pessimistic. And no notable Kirby players contributed, did they? No Ken109, SmashG0D, Mike, etc.?

His lackluster results come from the fact that the character is widely played, but few Kirby players are willing to do anything to improve. Even Triple R (as good as his results are) uses dair like a madman. Idk how we're about to trash his neutral options if no one knows how to play neutral.

His approach options are poor, certainly. But this doesn't mean the entirety of his neutral is poor (or worse than 90% of the cast). There are characters that wish they had his grounded frame data, landing lag, and general difficulty to hit.

But if people think he's bottom tier based on a Discord tier list (from people that don't know every MU that well - myself included), that's their prerogative.

 

[KenMeister]

As bad as this already is, a substantial portion of those -1s look like they could me -2s to me.

I considered that actually, but it was usually Kirby's reward that either kept him in play or the opponent not getting enough off of winning neutral to make it unbearable.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Kirby's neutral is all about not approaching. Kirby sucks at approaching, so he won't if he doesn't have to which means that if you don't have some way guarantee that you will get the lead without approaching him then you have to approach him, which is what Kirby wants because that's how he gets a hold of you to do damage and put himself in the lead, further allowing him to not approach.

You have to keep a percent or stock lead vs Kirby because if you don't he's just gonna sit there and make you try to get the lead and abuse his rather good grounded frame data and just continue wracking damage.

Basically, if you're in the lead Kirby has almost no neutral, he has to try and approach and he doesn't have very good tools for doing so, but if Kirby is in the lead and you don't have a way to force an approach then his neutral is amazing.

 

[KenMeister]

Kirby's neutral is all about not approaching. Kirby sucks at approaching, so he won't if he doesn't have to which means that if you don't have some way guarantee that you will get the lead without approaching him then you have to approach him, which is what Kirby wants because that's how he gets a hold of you to do damage and put himself in the lead, further allowing him to not approach.

You have to keep a percent or stock lead vs Kirby because if you don't he's just gonna sit there and make you try to get the lead and abuse his rather good grounded frame data and just continue wracking damage.

Basically, if you're in the lead Kirby has almost no neutral, he has to try and approach and he doesn't have very good tools for doing so, but if Kirby is in the lead and you don't have a way to force an approach then his neutral is amazing.

Yeah but even that, Kirby's punishes are only really good on a handful of characters. Put him up against anyone who's a mid weight or floaty and he's not getting much damage off of them at all, so that if you do gain the lead back, it only takes like one win in neutral before the opponent goes about their business and leaves Kirby off to prattle about helplessly at midrange until he gets a movement read or something.

 

[|RK|]

Kirby's neutral is all about not approaching. Kirby sucks at approaching, so he won't if he doesn't have to which means that if you don't have some way guarantee that you will get the lead without approaching him then you have to approach him, which is what Kirby wants because that's how he gets a hold of you to do damage and put himself in the lead, further allowing him to not approach.

You have to keep a percent or stock lead vs Kirby because if you don't he's just gonna sit there and make you try to get the lead and abuse his rather good grounded frame data and just continue wracking damage.

Basically, if you're in the lead Kirby has almost no neutral, he has to try and approach and he doesn't have very good tools for doing so, but if Kirby is in the lead and you don't have a way to force an approach then his neutral is amazing.

Right - and even this is only part of it. When Kirby is behind, you have to force approaches by your positioning (depending on your stage choice and your opponent's mobility options). Once your opponent has to get past you, you can use your tools to punish their options. This is less effective against, say, Pikachu and ZSS... But in either case, if you're rushing, you don't get that chance.

Also, I believe Kirby vs Mega Man perfectly illustrates what you were saying. If Mega Man has to approach, he has to use Leaf Shield to put on pressure at a distance. Dtilt is too committal, pellets are crouched, and Metal Blade gets stuffed by any attack.

On the other hand, if Kirby is trying to approach, Mega Man can keep him out for years. But of course, there's counterplay. I don't deny that Kirby himself lacks specific tools to deal with certain strategies - and that almost certainly makes him worse in the metagame. However, that's when you turn to the universal tools everyone gets - which can prove more effective than one might expect. But many characters don't need their players to know that.

 

[|RK|]

Yeah but even that, Kirby's punishes are only really good on a handful of characters. Put him up against anyone who's a mid weight or floaty and he's not getting much damage off of them at all, so that if you do gain the lead back, it only takes like one win in neutral before the opponent goes about their business and leaves Kirby off to prattle about helplessly at midrange until he gets a movement read or something.

Kirby's combo game is good for a completely different reason than Sheik's. That is to say, he gets more off of each individual hit. In many MUs, if he doesn't get good strings, he can make up for it pretty easily. The notable MUs where neither is the case are as follows - Toon Link, Rosalina, and Sonic.

EDIT: NOOOO, Double post

 

[Mega-Spider]

I'd like to contribute to the Kirby discussion. After all, I do love me some D-Airs and Copy Abilities, lol.

But yeah, what's been said about Kirby (pessimistic outlook aside) is true. Kirby, much like Luigi, is the definition of hot and cold, probably even more so. Being in the lead with Kirby feels great, but don't get too reckless because his low survivability can make him lose the lead pretty quickly. Kirby has a simple game plan of being a bait and punish character, and some characters like Sheik and Fox can't do their regular routine against him, otherwise they're falling into his trap. If Kirby's behind, it can be an uphill battle, and having to approach with Kirby is a pretty terrible feeling.

I agree with RK on the whole "Kirby players aren't doing anything to improve" stance. Sure, Kirby's played a fair bit, rarely at top level, but I see some Kirby's at locals and small tournaments, and they aren't doing much to improve. It sucks, but I feel if Kirby players stop wallowing about how supposedly terrible he is and actually start improving, Kirby's results could improve.

 

[blackghost]

Unfortunately, UCT can't really be legal if only because it causes nausea for certain people, which would be a hugely unfair advantage. I've also heard a lot of complaints about UCT's background being incredibly distracting and there isn't really anything we could do about it. Skyloft would be fun but that'd open up Halberd/Delfino/Castle Siege arguments again.

the thing is all these complaints with motion sickness about UCT are anecdotal evidence or (possibly) people just flat lying. i don't know i'm not a doctor.
as for the "distraction" I dont buy it. never have. did we ban smashville because of a band playing on the stage or another stage becuase of whats going on in the background? Halbred- "no man dont choose that stage a ship flies in the backgrond." that was never said and you have an incentive to pay attention to the background on halbred. final destination complaints on th eflash plummeted after people just got used to it. this stage will be the same way. either you can focus on your tournament match or you can't. UCT solves a lot of the gap we have in the stage list: larger blastzones on sides, platforms that dont easily favor top tiers, platforms that cannot kill you,platform layout thats not always a tri setup, and a second stage for zoning characters to work with. because right now they have one. before someone comments about th platform under the stage, yes its there, briefly but do you really want to go do there and have to recover from under the stage?
dont see how skyloft brings back another stage for discussion. skyloft is VERY different from delfino because blast zones are stable and you spend MUCH more time on the default stage than you do at any stop if people want to camp a phase its fine its like 10-15 seconds and then its continues. seeing how pokemon stadium is loved everyone seems ok with this it should be fine.
halbred isnt coming back not becuase of stage hazards but because the blast zones are ridiculously close and is a must ban against too many characters (bayo, shiek, zss, ryu,rosa, cloud, maybe more)
castle siege while an arguable legal stage is just inherently not a good stage. statue intereactions, stage transasitions that lead to massive exploitation, wierd layout to fight on on (first stage) long period with exposed walk off (as opposed to UCT or skyloft where if you camp a walk off when the transition happens you are at a massive disadvantage)

 

[FamilyTeam]

Every time people mention motion sickness... I just remember...
Don't videogame manuals warn you constantly you should not be playing videogames if you have motion sickness (and epilepsia and a bunch of other things) unless your doctor allows it?
Sorry but this really seems to be a case of "can't say we didn't warn you".

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

There is WAY more going on in the back ground of UCT (ontop of screen shaking) than the characters hardly moving on the Animal Crossing stages. I personally don't get distracted by it but I can see how someone could, it's a lot easier to lose track of projectiles on this stage as well. I'm don't have a opinion on bringing UCT on or not but the motion sensitivity and back ground distraction complaints are valid on it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Are you going to explain why you don't believe Duck Hunt is low tier?

Nah.

 

[TurboLink]

Nah.

Well, why not? Too tired?

I've always seen Kirby as basically a worse Luigi. If Kirby had a projectile he'd probably do a lot better. Of course that's not the only thing that makes Luigi better than Kirby. It's also his amazing frame data. All of his aerials have the potential to auto-cancel out of his short hop.

 

[verbatim]

Late but on the stage discussion:

Is there a rule banning a stage that a character strongly benefits from?

Because if you legalized Kongo, and you know your opponent uses Sonic, ban it. Because otherwise, that's the moment we receive Brawl 2.0.

Once a stage gets to big you run into that issue whenever one character's significantly faster than the other (not just Sonic), which is why Pyrosphere w/out hazards would still probably be banned.

Also Skyloft is significantly worse than Delfino/Halberd, and Wuhu Island is the best timeout stage out of all of the theoretically legal one's by a wide margin, way ahead of Duck Hunt and Kongo. Delfino is probably the "best" revolving stage for competitive play, which is kind of sad. That being said it'd be a pretty decent stage if it's ceiling wasn't so jank during stage transitions.

That being said, TO's in Smash 4 are in general REALLY conservative when it comes to rulelists, so maybe they'd still get banned. I think that the 7 we have now is probably the best we're going to get without a backroom sponsored custom stage project/dlc, but I hope that we don't go any lower.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well, why not? Too tired?

It's just not that important to me.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Well, why not? Too tired?

I've always seen Kirby as basically a worse Luigi. If Kirby had a projectile he'd probably do a lot better. Of course that's not the only thing that makes Luigi better than Kirby. It's also his amazing frame data. All of his aerials have the potential to auto-cancel out of his short hop.

Kirby does have a projectile: the shockwave from Final Cutter. But it's so poor that it's not worth mentioning. If anything, it should travel a little further and come out a lot faster. Maybe it would be worth something if that were the case.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Custom stages would be a great addition, even just remakes of the first phase of transitioning stages would be nice. I could also see remakes of some melee/brawl stages like yoshis island being a thing

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Late but on the stage discussion:



Once a stage gets to big you run into that issue whenever one character's significantly faster than the other (not just Sonic), which is why Pyrosphere w/out hazards would still probably be banned.

Also Skyloft is significantly worse than Delfino/Halberd, and Wuhu Island is the best timeout stage out of all of the theoretically legal one's by a wide margin, way ahead of Duck Hunt and Kongo. Delfino is probably the "best" revolving stage for competitive play, which is kind of sad. That being said it'd be a pretty decent stage if it's ceiling wasn't so jank during stage transitions.

That being said, TO's in Smash 4 are in general REALLY conservative when it comes to rulelists, so maybe they'd still get banned. I think that the 7 we have now is probably the best we're going to get without a backroom sponsored custom stage project/dlc, but I hope that we don't go any lower.

Custom stages legal will never happen. Too many headaches of players accusing the TO/Wii U owner of going in and ever so slightly editing it. Things as small as platforms being a pixel higher off of the main platform can potentially have differences in a match (see differences in Marth vs Lucina with certain moves hitting the platform above them. With about a pixel of difference in reach) and you'll have players claiming that happened all the freaking time. Or players refusing to show up to tournaments with custom stages out of that fear.

 

[TDK]

Kirby does have a projectile: the shockwave from Final Cutter. But it's so poor that it's not worth mentioning. If anything, it should travel a little further and come out a lot faster. Maybe it would be worth something if that were the case.

The problem with the Final Cutter projectile is how situational it is. When are you going to be in a position where you're like "Hey, I should totally put myself in a dangerous position for 3 seconds just to commit to this low damage, low knockback projectile!"

 

[KenMeister]

Are we seriously bringing Final Cutter into this? It's an unusable, shadow of its former decent-ish self from Brawl, and which I guess describes Smash 4 Kirby in a nutshell, all the decent stuff he had in Brawl was pretty much ripped from him and what we got is a polarizing punish game that either works or doesn't and a gimmicky crouch that works in like 5 MUs >~<

 

[Wintermelon43]

One thing that would help Kirby discussion is if people didn't just say "Kirby is just a worse version of Character X. They have similar strengths, such as -insert strengths here- and play similarily, but Kirby is just worse at everything and has a bad neutral so he sucks". It's just stupid to just call a character a worse version of another character, espicially when the characters aren't even alike at all.

Also KenMeister That matchup spread is not even remotly close to accurate. You very clearly attempted to make it as pessimistic as it can possibly be, and then made it even more pessimistic to the point where the pessimism was blatant lies. If you want to prove why Kirby is "bottom tier" (Which is rediculous imo), at least try to convince people that he's bottom tier without spreading complete misinformation. This is why people say Jigglypuff is so bad that she has absoluty no strengths and may even desevre her own tier below everyone else, and why people say that characters such as Duck Hunt and Pac-Man are low tier when they aren't. Blatant misinformation that came out of pessimism toward the character.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Are we seriously bringing Final Cutter into this? It's an unusable, shadow of its former decent-ish self from Brawl, and which I guess describes Smash 4 Kirby in a nutshell, all the decent stuff he had in Brawl was pretty much ripped from him and what we got is a polarizing punish game that either works or doesn't and a gimmicky crouch that works in like 5 MUs >~<

Wouldn't it help not to glorify a previous incarnation of a character? We're not talking about Brawl here, so get those comparisons out of here.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I won't speak for motion sickness on UCT but I've been diagnosed with ADHD since I was young and the stage is quite hard to play on for me because of the camera panning and the extensive focus on the stuff going on in the background. I've tried playing on the stage numerous times and the layout and other stuff is legitimately godlike but the background action and how the camera focuses on it + how intrusive it all is despite not directly hitting the players makes me lose my focus easily. Call it anecdotal if you want, I don't mind, but this is genuine experience talking.

Compare this to Smashville, Town and City, Lylat, FD. The last two have quite extravagant background shifts but I almost never experience camera panning/camera changes (maybe on Lylat but I don't recall it happening) and it helps me concentrate a lot better since the camera stays focused on the fighters much more fluidly.

If UCT was just less visually focused on bringing attention to its background setpieces I'd probably be able to play on it a lot better and it wouldn't legitimately inhibit me.

 

[meticulousboy]

I just hope major tournaments allow omega stages more often. While some walles omegas help the characters that can wall cling or wall jump, who knows. Maybe music variety actually is a good thing. Have there not been scientific research on how music affects the brain? It can possibly help or hinder game play.

 

[meticulousboy]

Ignore this.

 

[|RK|]

Are we seriously bringing Final Cutter into this? It's an unusable, shadow of its former decent-ish self from Brawl, and which I guess describes Smash 4 Kirby in a nutshell, all the decent stuff he had in Brawl was pretty much ripped from him and what we got is a polarizing punish game that either works or doesn't and a gimmicky crouch that works in like 5 MUs >~<

My last comment on this:

1) Yes, Final Cutter is garbage
2) You keep saying that crouch works in only 5 MUs, which is a fundamental misunderstanding of how it works. Yes, its potential to negate 85% of a character's moveset is limited to a few key MUs. However, by shrinking his hurtbox, it forces poorer landings (cause people to miss autocancels), allows easier powershields on landing attacks (Cloud dair), and forces people to stay grounded for the most part, or even change options. Crouch isn't the end-all-be-all like some people pretend it is, but it is advantageous. And a number of better players than I have already explained this.

 

[Myollnir]

Some people have a really toxic attitude when talking about an obscure character (and for the most part they are ironically players of said character), being emo, spreading misinformation & generally refusing to work on improving. Granted, some characters have less tools than others, but when characters have a small playerbase, their metagame is underdevelopped, regardless.

This kind of behaviour leads to people having quite a few misconceptions on those obscure characters - I know it's the case for Kirby, and I assume other people sometimes feel the same way about their main.

I could go on a rant on why Kirby is not that straightforward, how nobody plays him at a solid enough level (except MikeKirby) and how there's a lot of improvement that needs to be done, but that would be useless since nobody cares about Kirby (and for good reason, he's never played at high level) and I'm a random so I would have nothing to back me up.

Regarding the "emo" thingy, I am by no means saying that every character is equally good and that everyone should be positive (or worse, biased) towards their character, but heck, there's absolutely no need to make it worse.

Conversely, some people need to accept that their character can have a negative MU towards X character. Like, I have no problems admiting that Kirby gets obliterated by Sonic (not auto-win, per se, but large advantage).

If I ever post a MU chart (which I SHOULDN'T cause nobody gives a **** about a random's opinion, something that a lot of people don't seem to understand, or at least that's what it used to be when tier list maker got popular), my goal would be to be as accurate as possible. Not to make Kirby look like a high tier character. Putting everyone at -1 and removing every -2 won't magically solve my character's issues, just saying.

This is especially true with low/bottom tier characters, where the players will sometimes try to put down every other "bad" character and absolutely want their character to have a +1/+2 over said "bad" character. Sometimes I wanna facepalm real hard when people talk about Kirby.

TL;DR - If you feel your character is blatantly bad and have no room to grow, then just drop him and play that genkai wo koeru guy (or any top tier, for that matter), because that's a really sad mindset. There's no need to spread misinformation & make things worse for people who want to learn, improve, and show everyone what their character is capable of.

PS : I apologize for any potential spelling/grammar/etc... mistake, English is not my language. I hope it won't make my wall of text too unpleasant to read.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Late but on the stage discussion:



Once a stage gets to big you run into that issue whenever one character's significantly faster than the other (not just Sonic), which is why Pyrosphere w/out hazards would still probably be banned.

Also Skyloft is significantly worse than Delfino/Halberd, and Wuhu Island is the best timeout stage out of all of the theoretically legal one's by a wide margin, way ahead of Duck Hunt and Kongo. Delfino is probably the "best" revolving stage for competitive play, which is kind of sad. That being said it'd be a pretty decent stage if it's ceiling wasn't so jank during stage transitions.

Of course this is the wrong thread to discuss stages, but I genuinely don't see how skyloft is worse than Delfino. It's debatable being worse than halberd but then the extremely small ceiling and hazards halberd has as well where as most of skyloft hazards you actively need to jump into or get hit into it by opponent (which some can bounce you back into the stage to tech/live longer) yeah.
The 12% sucks but it's better than dying and halberd hazards do more, some of the 12% you might take it pops you up in some segments saving you while some others just makes you start floating to hopefully recover if a good enough recovery, which isn't a problem for most top tiers.
Halberd's hazards the bomb you have to be mentally ill to get hit by it unless again opponent throws you into it, laser you can SDI but sakurai made the last hit of the laser bigger in smash 4 for some reason so it's deceptively killed players before, even top players when halberd used to be on some stagelists last year.

Delfino's problem lies in shrinking blastzones in all sides at randomly places while moving or transitioning to the point the top ceiling can sometimes shrink to the size of halberd, lots of walk offs and water involved and longer time for the places to switch off em so more seconds to waste in water or sides of blastzones. Think delfino is 18-20 seconds, somewhere around there while skyloft is 8-12 seconds, that's a huge difference.

Not saying these stages should be legal or anything but an opinion saying one stage is bad cause a vid showing a lot of inconsistencies and few consistencies can be done for any old legal level like the others mentioned.
Wuhu I won't go into, way too big to be tourney viable.


For the UCT argument, it's mostly that it's distracting cause it hurts peoples eyes. But if that was the case than what about Lylat cruise or FD? I've legit heard people complain about FD before since apparently they forgot Omegas existed if the FD BG really distracted them.
If it doesn't hurt their eyes and they mean all the fun happening in the BG, yeah UCT goes overboard in that regard.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

UCT also causes motion sickness in people like myself who have a hair trigger for it. The shaking does it on top of how the background works. Which makes it an instant no-go. Completely unfair if certain individuals have to always strike a stage because they legit would not be able to play on it and would be ill by the end of a long game there. Said ill feeling would carry on into the next game of the set unless you're willing to have a good 15-20 minute break in the middle of a set.

 

[Mr. Johan]

It's not the background disparity that affects perceptions on UCT. The actual battlefield vibrates too, and that's when it gets messy. When you have to keep track of yourself while an erratically changing background and a constantly vibrating foreground is going on, I can't blame people disliking it.

Knock FD and Lylat all you want, at least the floor stays still on FD, and gently flows on Lylat. If that ship did actual barrel rolls as well, then we could be talking about it.

 

[meleebrawler]

Kirby does have a projectile: the shockwave from Final Cutter. But it's so poor that it's not worth mentioning. If anything, it should travel a little further and come out a lot faster. Maybe it would be worth something if that were the case.

Wave Cutter.

 

[blackghost]

uct is my personal favorite but the best part is its layout (and music). we could do custom stages that imitate the various layouts of some stages like skyloft and uct.
saying we have 7 stages is interesting considering we have 2 bfs. if your character or personally don't like bf you are already annoyed by the stage list.
I don't want to afford anyone but what part of uct is bringing out motion sickness? is it the moving background or just the roar? because the stage only shakes then.

 

[Megamang]

Maybe after a close 2 games, players want a game 3 where the things you each learned about eachother are applied in a battle on flat ground where the faster character can be cornered... Rather than "hehehe bet you don't know this stupid stage" *some random jank kills you at 40* or "good luck catching my bad 2ndary Cloud as I charge limit at each transition and if you try and stop me get bthrown then i get a free LCS at the ledge"... yea, you can learn to beat it but why?

Why? The question should be 'what does it add to the game', not 'what can we justify to add'. I dont want to play delfino. Apparently most actual tournament attendees feel the same.

And the funniest part is, by and large the top tiers benefit the most from stupid stages. Powerful tools like luma, limit, and flip kick are more adaptable than not.

If you lose to someone game 1, figure them out hard on game 2, you should be at an advantage for figuring their play out... not a harsh disadvantage because they get some obscure setup or other advantage and get to force it on you because you dont have 2 bans. And again, they probably wont use a pocket falco for his trait, itll probably be a camping or roof kill gimmick.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Funny thing is, with all the people upset enough over 20% kills with Luma Uair, Boost Kick, and Mario UpB at this point, you'd think Delfino would be proffered as a means to create at least a zero-sum game pertaining to that.

 

[Megamang]

But those chars are still gonna be the best at it...

And those things are figured out to the point where your DI is almost always at fault if you die (rage zss and zss at DH/low ceilings excluded,and she even has a big risk, megaman sidesteps the grab and she dies at 70%)


Meh. Can we talk about something else though?

 

[ARISTOS]

But those chars are still gonna be the best at it...

And those things are figured out to the point where your DI is almost always at fault if you die (rage zss and zss at DH/low ceilings excluded,and she even has a big risk, megaman sidesteps the grab and she dies at 70%)


Meh. Can we talk about something else though?

How about Marth vs Lucina? We haven't talked about that recently