Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Wintermelon43]

How about Marth vs Lucina? We haven't talked about that recently

Please no

 

[Mr. Johan]

But those chars are still gonna be the best at it...

Sonic's going to be the best at horizontal neutral spacing in a game on Smashville, and a game on Town & City just gives him more room. Yet we have that stage anyway because there's no discernible reason to keep that stage off starter lists.

If these characters kill off the top at hilariously low percents, alright. All Delfino does is widen that entourage of characters that can do that as well.

 

[FamilyTeam]

How about Marth vs Lucina? We haven't talked about that recently

Oh Gods no. I've better things to do with my time than participate or even watch an argument that constantly goes in circles.

 

[zblaqk]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This was a wifi tourney so you might not want to include it.

I mainly wanted to point out that Some beat KEN again! This is his fourth time beating him.

Why are Gekkouga mains so good at the sonic match up?

When you've got the fastest overall speed in the game, it tends to help

 

[Nidtendofreak]

uct is my personal favorite but the best part is its layout (and music). we could do custom stages that imitate the various layouts of some stages like skyloft and uct.
saying we have 7 stages is interesting considering we have 2 bfs. if your character or personally don't like bf you are already annoyed by the stage list.
I don't want to afford anyone but what part of uct is bringing out motion sickness? is it the moving background or just the roar? because the stage only shakes then.

Look like, three posts above yours. Its the whole package. Its a no go for being legal.

 

[Das Koopa]

With NX rumors abound, a lot of (supposedly) credible sources are mentioning that a lot of remasters are on the way, including Smash. I'm wondering if we'll get a new balance patch with a Wii U remaster.

Spoiler

we could get Climbers too maybe but they'd suck horribly anyway so lol

Does my heart good to see all those Charizard results.

Koopa, I'm curious. What do you think about Charizard at this point?

zard scores higher than Pikachu

Also I think he's kinda bad, ZeRo dismantled ANTi really hard and made it look like Zard can't do anything. Maybe that's just ZeRo being ZeRo and ANTi making a bad pick. I don't think he's bottom 5 or anything and he has some cool edgeguarding on certain characters with flamethrower but he's probably stuck in the same rut as like 5-10 other characters where none of them are atrocious but none of them are really viable at a high-level, either.

 

[TDK]

we could get Climbers too maybe but they'd suck horribly anyway so lol

Without Wobbling or Chaingrabs they'd still have desync/reset combos, including reset combos that would actually be useable since there's 2 of them and they can really be where they need to be.

 

[L9999]

Without Wobbling or Chaingrabs they'd still have desync/reset combos, including reset combos that would actually be useable since there's 2 of them and they can really be where they need to be.

Knowing the developers, IC would have 0-death footstool combos because they don't bother testing that.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

zard scores higher than Pikachu

That...

That puts things in a whole new perspective, doesn't it?

 

[FamilyTeam]

A new balance patch...
I've said this before but I'd rather have the game with the few odd balancing kinks we have right now than getting another patch and risk them royally screwing something up.

 

[Das Koopa]

My preference would be to just buff existing low tiers. No more nerfs are necessary imo. Buffs to characters like Meta Knight, Mewtwo, and Marth have been pretty positive for the game's development.

 

[Ethan7]

With NX rumors abound, a lot of (supposedly) credible sources are mentioning that a lot of remasters are on the way, including Smash. I'm wondering if we'll get a new balance patch with a Wii U remaster.

Where did you read this? I am curious.
Also, I agree, they are not really any outliers anymore like pre-patch , and , so there is no particular character to target for nerfs.

 

[FamilyTeam]

It would be pretty nice to see the likes of Zelda and Puff being tournament viable (I'd like Zelda, Gods I love her so much), but hey, we are finally kinda lucky to have a Smash game with more than 8 viable characters and no definitive first.
Actually, discussing who is first place in this game is difficult, simply because you really cannot try to use the logic we used to use in earlier games. In Melee and Brawl and to some extent, even 64, the first place was occupied by someone who was clearly just way above the cast:

• Pikachu combined movement, combos and extreme edguarding with the best recovery in the game in 64;
• Fox and Falco had extremely good movement, one of the best combo games in the entire series and kill power that for no good reason at all matched those of heavyweights at times;
• Meta Knight, well I've no comment. He basically felt like more of a middlefinger to people who were trying to play the game with any degree of seriousness than an actual character.

Can you name any character from this game that dominates the cast as much as any of those four? Definitely not. So knowing who the first place is is difficult, and maybe we might have to deal with the fact that this game might just not have a fixed first place? It's a possibility, to me.

 

[Das Koopa]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

weee

 

[|RK|]

With NX rumors abound, a lot of (supposedly) credible sources are mentioning that a lot of remasters are on the way, including Smash. I'm wondering if we'll get a new balance patch with a Wii U remaster.

Spoiler

we could get Climbers too maybe but they'd suck horribly anyway so lol

zard scores higher than Pikachu

Also I think he's kinda bad, ZeRo dismantled ANTi really hard and made it look like Zard can't do anything. Maybe that's just ZeRo being ZeRo and ANTi making a bad pick. I don't think he's bottom 5 or anything and he has some cool edgeguarding on certain characters with flamethrower but he's probably stuck in the same rut as like 5-10 other characters where none of them are atrocious but none of them are really viable at a high-level, either.

1) I saw the Emily Rogers rumor from a while back that said it would be the definitive version. Presumably, it might have a mix of stages from the 3DS and Wii U version. That would solve our stage issue lol.

2) To be fair, it was Zard against Diddy - and ANTi was 6-0d when it came down to it. Zard performed no better or worse than Mario or Cloud in that set

 

[Megamang]

So how is everyone improving their game?

After focusing more on stage control, my neutral is much improved. Since mega relies on a some confirms which are much stronger by the ledge (stuff into bair), getting them towards the ledge is half the battle.

Also, im labbing a bunch of ledge traps. Pellets are really great here, even being able to rob a ledge jump of its height. Z drop into aerials can cover a multitude of options at once and is quite dangerous.

Ive noticed that the efficacy of some ledge games is heavily effected by platform presence. Duh, right? But now im trying to flesh out how it effects players' decision making.

Im interested in what is going on for other characters today. Greninja ledgetrapping is another avenue id like to explore, his projectile variations are all very good near the ledge. What else is up?

Edit: fox has more trouble with his inferior clone than the super fighting robot? Larry needs to play kameme instead of scatt, or hit up that 'not sure' column.

I also feel a fox that didnt go in hardcore like Larry and instead played burst mobility ala Void + laser camping/disengaging/ gimp or juggle based on stage position wouldn't lose to Ryu, but i underestimate the world warrior ever since everyone said trela was about to rule the world and it never even came close to happening.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

1) I saw the Emily Rogers rumor from a while back that said it would be the definitive version. Presumably, it might have a mix of stages from the 3DS and Wii U version. That would solve our stage issue lol.

2) To be fair, it was Zard against Diddy - and ANTi was 6-0d when it came down to it. Zard performed no better or worse than Mario or Cloud in that set

Emily rodgers is VERY unreliable. Just saying

 

[Das Koopa]

Where did you read this? I am curious.
Also, I agree, they are not really any outliers anymore like pre-patch , and , so there is no particular character to target for nerfs.

Gameblog, French website that leaked PS4 Pro release date. Take every rumor with a grain of salt. I think it's believable for obvious reasons (e.g. it provides incentive to buy the console with quality but updated versions of products) but it's obviously possible it's wrong. Nothing ABOUT the game was said, just that it's a good remaster target.

It would be pretty nice to see the likes of Zelda and Puff being tournament viable (I'd like Zelda, Gods I love her so much), but hey, we are finally kinda lucky to have a Smash game with more than 8 viable characters and no definitive first.
Actually, discussing who is first place in this game is difficult, simply because you really cannot try to use the logic we used to use in earlier games. In Melee and Brawl and to some extent, even 64, the first place was occupied by someone who was clearly just way above the cast:

• Pikachu combined movement, combos and extreme edguarding with the best recovery in the game in 64;
• Fox and Falco had extremely good movement, one of the best combo games in the entire series and kill power that for no good reason at all matched those of heavyweights at times;
• Meta Knight, well I've no comment. He basically felt like more of a middlefinger to people who were trying to play the game with any degree of seriousness than an actual character.

Can you name any character from this game that dominates the cast as much as any of those four? Definitely not. So knowing who the first place is is difficult, and maybe we might have to deal with the fact that this game might just not have a fixed first place? It's a possibility, to me.

I wouldn't agree that Fox is "way above" the cast in Melee. At least, not on the top level. Only solo-Fox mains that really get deep into top 8 are SFAT, Ice, and Leffen. He goes even with Marth (or this is generally believed to be the case) and players like Armada and Hungrybox do really well with floaties vs. Fox... his dominance is somewhat exaggerated. He's definitely overtuned, but I'd compare it to pre-1.1.5 Sheik.

 

[Mega-Spider]

How have I been improving my game? Well, with , pretty much the same thing as Megamang only with less ledge traps. I should really add that into my game plan for Megs.
As for , I've been practicing patience and have been using Copy Abilities to give me an extra option in matches.

 

[PoptartLord]

All of these recent posts on stages reminded me of something - wasn't there talk of starting a new thread for that just a while ago? I remember checking the "New Posts" tab/link for a week looking for it, then giving up and assuming it would be linked to from this thread once created, and then I forgot about it again. I was excited, too; I try to gentleman's clause as much as possible in tournaments so I have actual experiences to share. But that's too yellow topic for here, so it'll have to wait.

So how is everyone improving their game?

I'm not; help me!!
Jokes aside, (or is it?) there's a combination of wide-scale and small-scale efforts. First, I really need to get the input down for standing at the ledge -> grab ledge. I keep either pivoting at the edge or running off and fast-falling. Then I'd use it as an edgeguard mix-up. Second, there's getting tilts + b-reverses to not be smashes + side-b's, although this might be mostly a controller thing (I wanted to b-reverse Flamethrower, not Flare Blitz into the blast zone again!!). Third, using b-reversing to be less predictable when landing. Fourth, stop immediately air-dodging so much, it's too predictable. Every time I get punished for it I see it coming and tell myself "don't do that again" only to immediately do it again.
After that there's character specific things. For example, reacting to Fox's side-b properly. If we're at the same height I (Marth, but I should test with Robin as well now that I think about it) have had a lot of success with short hop down-air and then Fox runs right into the arc. I just... keep forgetting I can do that.

-PoptartLord

 

[Nu~]

Edit: fox has more trouble with his inferior clone than the super fighting robot? Larry needs to play kameme instead of scatt, or hit up that 'not sure' column.
.

Interesting that you say that considering this just happened

https://twitter.com/kameme8808/status/786748888124235776

 

[|RK|]

So how is everyone improving their game?

After focusing more on stage control, my neutral is much improved. Since mega relies on a some confirms which are much stronger by the ledge (stuff into bair), getting them towards the ledge is half the battle.

Also, im labbing a bunch of ledge traps. Pellets are really great here, even being able to rob a ledge jump of its height. Z drop into aerials can cover a multitude of options at once and is quite dangerous.

Ive noticed that the efficacy of some ledge games is heavily effected by platform presence. Duh, right? But now im trying to flesh out how it effects players' decision making.

Im interested in what is going on for other characters today. Greninja ledgetrapping is another avenue id like to explore, his projectile variations are all very good near the ledge. What else is up?

Edit: fox has more trouble with his inferior clone than the super fighting robot? Larry needs to play kameme instead of scatt, or hit up that 'not sure' column.

I also feel a fox that didnt go in hardcore like Larry and instead played burst mobility ala Void + laser camping/disengaging/ gimp or juggle based on stage position wouldn't lose to Ryu, but i underestimate the world warrior ever since everyone said trela was about to rule the world and it never even came close to happening.

I take lessons from Dabuz, so a lot of what I'm practicing is heavily influenced by him. That said, I'm also focusing more on stage control (as well as ledge trapping). I find that when I have positional pressure and someone has to get past me, I have way more power over my opponent. On this same note, I'm trying to learn defense.

Additionally, I'm working on other fundamental skills - like reading an opponent. It's a little difficult for me to keep focused, but when I can, it's helpful to see what actions I can punish from an opponent. I need to be able to do this faster, but it's a work in progress.

Also, projectiles - as Kirby, I'm not used to having them. So I need to figure out how I can use them to read my opponent better (as opposed to just casting them into the abyss at incorrect ranges).

Finally, being able to use the right aerial for spacing in the right MUs, and mixing up my options. I tend to play either too safe or too reckless - I need to get the mix just right.

---

As for what I plan to work on... I think we may have discovered a kill confirm today, but I'm not 100% certain. So I'm gonna try that.

I also plan to work on crossups. They'll probably be invaluable when I need to take stocks.

 

[Megamang]

Well ill be damned. And it seems on average japan uses very slight ratios.


Has he been practicing with Larry? The pic he posted in the chain wouldnt load for me.

 

[outfoxd]

So how is everyone improving their game?

After focusing more on stage control, my neutral is much improved. Since mega relies on a some confirms which are much stronger by the ledge (stuff into bair), getting them towards the ledge is half the battle.

Also, im labbing a bunch of ledge traps. Pellets are really great here, even being able to rob a ledge jump of its height. Z drop into aerials can cover a multitude of options at once and is quite dangerous.

Ive noticed that the efficacy of some ledge games is heavily effected by platform presence. Duh, right? But now im trying to flesh out how it effects players' decision making.

Im interested in what is going on for other characters today. Greninja ledgetrapping is another avenue id like to explore, his projectile variations are all very good near the ledge. What else is up?

Edit: fox has more trouble with his inferior clone than the super fighting robot? Larry needs to play kameme instead of scatt, or hit up that 'not sure' column.

I also feel a fox that didnt go in hardcore like Larry and instead played burst mobility ala Void + laser camping/disengaging/ gimp or juggle based on stage position wouldn't lose to Ryu, but i underestimate the world warrior ever since everyone said trela was about to rule the world and it never even came close to happening.

I started playing with Marth so i can't rely on cansplosions or Luma when i screw up.

 

[TDK]

So how is everyone improving their game?

I've devoted more time to practicing neutral and lass time to practicing long combo strings and tech. Back when I played some other caracters ( ) I'd practice the longest, most damaging combo string then get shut out because I'd lose Neutral. With Link, I've been practicing neutral and baiting more, and as a result I win neutral more, which ultimately equates to more damage in the long run. Additionally, for some reason I've gotten better at reading DI just by practicing neutral, so I get better mixups with the character I don't practice mixups with than the characters I actually did. Go figure. Work on the neutral and everything else goes up.

 

[TDK]

Well ill be damned. And it seems on average japan uses very slight ratios.


Has he been practicing with Larry? The pic he posted in the chain wouldnt load for me.

This is what Kameme posted.

 

[Luco]

I hate to fuel the fire of continuing discussion of a topic only tangentally related to our primary discussion but something that doesn't get discussed a lot with stages which bugs me that people don't consider isn't necessarily hazards themselves but what they mean to gameplay. I've believed firmly that Halberd is a significantly worse stage than... Some others for a long time, because while it's true that the bomb and laser themselves aren't a big deal, what they DO mean is attention distracted from the match itself and onto the hazard, and not in a benefactory kind of non-intrusive element but a 'dang here comes the bomb I need to get away from it and also avoid the other player'. Even just that example shows it can disrupt slower, campier strategies, forcing unsafe approaches or potentially enforcing slower games such as the laser (which is less disruptive imo). The claw may force you to AD out of a combo string you initiated, etc etc. Thing is these hazards are more than just hazards you either get hit by or don't, and this transfers over to our current stagelist where you might be forced into a corner on BF because you DON'T want to go near the middle of BF at high percents vs a Charizard even if you'd be okay fighting him anywhere else, or you don't risk going to the platform on SV because you're concerned an observant Ness will be waiting to Fthrow you at 0% for the kill... Lots of ways our stages impact us even if the hazards themselves may not pose an immediate threat. Of course, to some extent I love the variety of stages, and would even prefer to see some stages with rather disruptive hazards such as Pirate Ship or Poke Stadium 2 which can affect gameplay quite a bit - would Sheik be quite as dominant on stages which don't tend to be perfectly flat whilst maintaining a higher ceiling or where dying to edge-guarding is less of an issue? (*shock horror*)

Just things to think about. Top tiers will probably complain that more stages are "jank" as it may affect why they are so good in this meta, whilst lower tiers will justify their viability on certain stages. Remember the meta we're stuck with is the meta we created in the first place. Change rules, power to the people, yaddiyadda legalise xxxx any size miis the choice is yours. Maybe.

EDIT: Nu~ Yes... Our ultimate plan for Wiichuk world domination draws near, mwahahahahaha!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

1) I saw the Emily Rogers rumor from a while back that said it would be the definitive version. Presumably, it might have a mix of stages from the 3DS and Wii U version. That would solve our stage issue lol.

It just won't support the GC Controller adapter instead.

In all seriousness: based on what I've seen of the NX, I don't see it supporting the GC Controller. Which would be a major problem.

 

[Nu~]

It just won't support the GC Controller adapter instead.

In all seriousness: based on what I've seen of the NX, I don't see it supporting the GC Controller. Which would be a major problem.

Nah, it would be beautiful irony.

After months of wireless players being shafted from big tournaments, now everyone has to make the switch

 

[Krysco]

I'd be perfectly fine with a lack of GC support so long as the main NX controller isn't a brick that only 1 player can use. I made the switch from GC to the Wii Classic Pro for the extra shoulder button and it has its uses. Heck, if we didn't have the adapter, we'd all be allowed to use wireless controllers at any tournament. Either that or there simply wouldn't be large tournaments.

As for stages, I'm perfectly fine playing on Lylat and the worst FD does is make me have to squint when it goes all white but that only lasts so long. With UCT, I don't know what it is about the stage, whether it's the background, the foreground, the vibrating or what but the entire time I'm on that stage, it's uncomfortable.

With the discussion of personal improvements, nothing for me at the moment. My one in-person training partner hasn't been over in the past 2 months and I've been on FG once during that time and only for a few matches. I don't bother to go on Anther's since it's online. Most I've been doing is labbing with Roy and I've been rather slow about it. Waiting for December-January when I can start attending tournaments in Ottawa before trying to improve myself too much.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nah, it would be beautiful irony.

After months of wireless players being shafted from big tournaments, now everyone has to make the switch

Given how large of a % of the community uses CG controllers, I'd actually expect the final ruling for majors to end up being "Wii U version, not NX version" as long as when it came to character balance both versions were identical. No TO is going to want to tell 90-100% of their players to change their controller.

So the NX version would have 3DS stages and thus allow for more stage options in tournaments, but due to the lack of CG Adaptor support it can't be used!

 

[TDK]

Has there ever been a major case of wireless controllers causing issues in either Brawl or Smash 4? I can't remember any.

 

[Das Koopa]

If there's no GC controller support for NX, the scene would likely stick to using the Wii U. That being said, I'd assume there'd be USB ports on the NX for the adapter.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Kinda been wondering for a while now, is DK actually bad in the neutral or not? He has every tool a good neutral needs minus the projectile. Good grounded AND aerial spacing, good get off me options, good anti airs, doesn't loose to shield at any percent, decent mobility and dash to shield can be negated with his PP shield. What exactly is it that makes him kinda bad in the neutral?

 

[Rizen]

I might have found an example of where Cloud not being able to tech his upB being hit happened in a top level game:
2GGT: Abadango Saga - Komorikiri & TSM | ZeRo Vs. Samsora & SlayerZ Grand Finals
https://youtu.be/JG0_UOHMnH4?list=PLsoSl1w33CKR6a163kfnmCOVi9jQ64b1Y&t=442
It's hard to tell but the announcers think he mistimed the tech.

 

[Flowen231]

So how is everyone improving their game?

By trying to not confuse my characters ;p. jkjk, already crossed that gap. I'm trying to implement more erratic movement into my neutral to avoid becoming predictable without getting punished. I've also been working on playing with Luma detached since it would help versus a few characters that have an easy time killing the little bugger. My biggest goal at the moment though is learning Bayo's new combos and doing away with my old followup habits; I dropped her for a long time because my old effective habits were killing me, and I figured it's been long enough to the point where I unlearned her and I can start over.

I myself love the idea of having UTC as a counter pick. Players complained about FD's flash for a while but got used to it later. I understand some people may have trouble with the visuals, but I'd say it's better to try and scrap it if need be than to just flat out say no without some top level testing.

I'm not sure how I feel about the NX atm. Whatever smash(ex) we get on it, I hope they're a step up. And I hope that the NX controller is great, assuming we don't get GC ports or a way to use them.

 

[Flowen231]

I might have found an example of where Cloud not being able to tech his upB being hit happened in a top level game:
2GGT: Abadango Saga - Komorikiri & TSM | ZeRo Vs. Samsora & SlayerZ Grand Finals
https://youtu.be/JG0_UOHMnH4?list=PLsoSl1w33CKR6a163kfnmCOVi9jQ64b1Y&t=442
It's hard to tell but the announcers think he mistimed the tech.

Sorry if it's a double post ;p. But that looks like there just wasn't enough KB on the second hit of Peach's Dair to make cloud smack the wall.

 

[Rizen]

Sorry if it's a double post ;p. But that looks like there just wasn't enough KB on the second hit of Peach's Dair to make cloud smack the wall.

That's what I thought too. It does show a situation were any hit would have killed Cloud due to that feature at least. Like if Peach had Nair-ed instead. :/

 

[Flowen231]

That's what I thought too. It does show a situation were any hit would have killed Cloud due to that feature at least. :/

Oh yeah it's a killer. I've been practicing it myself and practicing against it since, ironically, I pocket cloud for campy characters XD. I don't feel like it affects cloud too, too much, but it's definitely great to have another way of ending his stock if you manage to shake him off the stage.

 

[NairWizard]

Kinda been wondering for a while now, is DK actually bad in the neutral or not? He has every tool a good neutral needs minus the projectile. Good grounded AND aerial spacing, good get off me options, good anti airs, doesn't loose to shield at any percent, decent mobility and dash to shield can be negated with his PP shield. What exactly is it that makes him kinda bad in the neutral?

If people think that DK's neutral isn't that good it's because it's silly to talk about neutral independently of advantage and disadvantage; it skews perception of what characters can actually do in neutral.

DK has a pretty good neutral as is (except that his hurtbox is huge, which makes him extra vulnerable to projectiles and SH aerials; against projectile users he gets camped out very hard, and that's noteworthy when discussing his neutral), but the real problem in many matchups is his disadvantage. DK gets hit and usually gets demolished hard, such that he can't afford to let people "get in" or take risks in neutral. He has to play passively, wall characters out, and more or less fish for high-reward grabs.

Generally, characters with superior advantage and disadvantage states have better "neutrals" than they might appear to have because they can afford to take more risks in neutral and still win. If DK had a quick n-air that he could use to escape from strings you would see his neutral spoken of in a more positive light.

A lot of people theory-tunnel-vision to the "neutral game" and try to talk about it in a vacuum, which makes everything that much more confusing.