Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TTTTTsd]

Falcon playing smart against Marth means that Marth has to try to wall out a character that is, by all intents and purposes in this matchup, able to punish virtually ANYTHINg by means of Dashgrab or Dash attack. As long as Falcon isn't running facefirst into Marth's sword (i.e. not playing the game) it's not easy to wall him. Weren't y'all talking about how Fox was hard cause he just gets in and hits you? Does this sound familiar? He also has a very real disadvantaged state, I'm just sayin....

Marth has a good neutral, not an auto-win neutral. This is a big deal against Falcon.

 

[Kofu]

This is pretty solid.

I'm a little surprised to see Game & Watch in Falcon's disadvantage. I think the MU is fine for both players but wouldn't necessarily call it Game & Watch's favor. He's not the greatest at keeping Falcon out and it can be hard to keep him out once he gets there (being the second-lightest character in the game also does him no survivability favors). However, Falcon doesn't have a lot of answers to out juggling and can be harassed terribly offstage, especially if forced to recover low.

Does he have any good Game & Watch experience? I haven't heard of a Game & Watch player in Georgia and I don't think he was ever matched up against a notable Game & Watch at a bigger tournament.

Additionam note: the only notable top/high-level characters he goes even with according to the chart are Rosa, MK, and arguably Marth, Mega Man, and Lucario.

 

[Megamang]

First off, no hate for anyone learning. New players are essential for the scene, and we should never ridicule someone for being new and attending a competitive event.

I was simply saying, for MU discussion, dont use them to say certain characters have X trait when they shouldn't have that trait, habit, etc.

And we were just talking about how advantage, neutral, and disadvantage cant be viewed alone. So someone being able to gimp is quite important for neutral; it makes horizontal launchers much more fearsome. Even in disadvantage, a great gimper might be scary to chase or it can quickly switch up on you.

So, dont ignore gimping or similar advantages in your mu analysis. But yea, also talk about how you set up your gimps, or else it doesnt really matter.

 

[Flowen231]

I think some people look down on bayo's neutral because just about all of her moves extend her hurtbox along with her range. But it's as you guys are saying, the threat of witch time evens this out, and when bayo wins neutral she more often than not makes up all of the damage for losing neutral. I do think witch time is a little blown out of proportion, however. It becomes weaker when you use the move, even when it isn't triggered; Combined with how it was nerfed in both effective time and the rate of regeneration back in 1.1.5. Not saying it isn't an absolutely amazing move, but I feel like it has a weakness that no other counter has, especially if you bait it out of her with a mix of tomahawks and aerials.

 

[|RK|]

Kirby vs Falcon is definitely in Kirby's favor, but I don't think it's 70:30 bad lol. Falcon still has a great advantage state and fantastic ground speed. He can bait out crouch with spaced bairs, and as long as he can get his advantage going, he can do damage. Kirby still absolutely wrecks him, of course - it's easy to predict his options if he only has a few, and Falcon gets blown up in disadvantage by, like, a lot. But it's not impossible.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I also don't understand when random mid/low tiers try to say they beat/go even with Bayonetta just because they outrange her/they're a zoner. come to mind.

I don't understand how anyone could think Samus is a zoner with 60 frame projectiles? Have you ever tried to zone someone out with a full second of end lag on missiles? You won't get above 50% win ratio on FG trying that - let's ignore actual competitive play for the moment.
Sakurai likes to specifically go out of his way to build moves in this game that go around, avoid, cut through missiles to make them all but trivial.

The general Samus discord puts her are 55/45 in Bayo's favor.
I personally think Samus has the advantage, largely because since the current patch if the Samus has even a slight notion of SDI she gets out of the witch twist combos trivially. The reverse isn't true and Samus can do a ton of damage in the right hands with just 2 reads.
Samus is one of the few characters that can edgeguard Bayo as well.
You can bomb the ledge and use a combination of CS, f-smash and n-air in particular.

It's a good fight in general though.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Hey CCI out of curiosity, what are some of your favorite matchups to spectate?

 

[JayE]

Hey CCI out of curiosity, what are some of your favorite matchups to spectate?

Marth vs spacies in Melee or Smash 4, ZSS vs. Sheik, Diddy vs Cloud, Sheik vs Fox are just some of them I can think of atm

 

[Megamang]

ZSS v M2, Mario v Diddy, Megaman v Sonic/Fox/M2, Fox v Marth, Corrin at high level in any MU.

Edit: and greninja vs any top tier

These are more MUs i want to learn/understand more. When I think if things I like to watch in smash 4, its mostly specific players.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

First of all, good to see the repetitive Marth and Lucina discussion start the same way as always, with a complaint about their match ups being different even though they are different characters and just because they play similarly does not mean they have the same spread. Lovely.

Fatality's MU chart.

Wonder what happened for him to say is an even matchup, lul. This seems like a pretty honest chart.

All right, so I disagree with a good majority of the 45-55 area. Fox and Mario are the characters I would keep there, everyone else I believe is even. In fact, I think ROB might be advantageous. Whether or not you beat ROB is often dependent on you as a player having a good grasp of how to use Gyro against him.

Anyway, swap Kirby and Sheik and 40-60 and 30-70 area would be good. Kirby doesn't win because he's small. Crouching has counterplay. Pikachu being small is a reason for him however because landing with most of his aerials and even a few of his grounded moves make him small enough to avoid some of Falcon's attacks. Kirby doesn't have that, all he has is crouch. Kirby is also rather easy to string hits together on and doesn't have an amazing disadvantage either. I personally think Falcon/Kirby is closer to even but I can completely understand a Kirby advantage.

There's also a few advantageous ones I don't necessarily agree with. Mac is not in Falcon's advantage, it's even, they both destroy each other. Link really struggles to keep Falcon out. Bowser Jr. not only struggles to get in on Falcon, getting past bair walls and the ridiculousness known as holding jab, he also doesn't have a good move fast enough to keep Falcon out. Up be can get him out of a string or a combo for a short amount of time but it still keeps him in disadvantage and allows Falcon to keep juggling or even kill Jr. Dedede is the perfect combo food for Falcon. Huge frame, high fall speed. Jab resets with dair or ftilts are incredibly easy and potent on Dedede. He's so much fun to fight.

Why not look at it from the other perspective? What about, how much harder is it than normal to get in on them? How is Falcon going to challenge their Jab 1? How is Falcon going to deal with being the perfect weight and fall speed for their combo game?

Falcon simply has a far rougher time in neutral against Marth and Lucina, and it's arguably down to their Jab 1. As braindead as this sounds, it's perfectly possible to play dumb all match and walk around, forcing Falcon to come to you by pressuring with Jab 1. You land the jab 1? Free combo or Dancing Blade. I've played more than my fair share of these kind of games, and it's silly how much this works.

Of course Falcon off stage is a very scary thought for him against Marth and Lucina, and you are very right in that he just doesn't magically appear off stage, and Marth and Lucina have to still work to get him there (and even then, nothing is guaranteed off stage) . What is true though, is Marth and Lucina have the tools to outright control the neutral game, and Falcon doesn't like that one bit.

Bad Falcons have a rough time with Marth and Lucina in neutral. Good Falcon's don't. I don't blame you for coming to such a conclusion seeing how popular Falcon is as a character so everyone knows the match up and you're much more likely to fight a bad one than a good one. I've played this match up extensively from both sides, and Falcon breaks through walls easily, it's what he's good at.
Jab is not a good walling tool for Marth, and especially not against Falcon. Tilts and aerials are your walling tools here. Jab can work on Mario, not so well on Falcon because he can punish any move Marth does. Marth can wall Falcon out, but Falcon can just as easily break through that wall.

Also, I feel Fatality's Falcon still needs a lot of improvement. Big House 6 was the first time I've actually seen him use EDD as an actual part of his neutral rather than just something flashy to do after he kills someone. I just wish he would use perfect pivots more because pp jab is ridiculous. I also wish that if he's going to try and be flashy with uair > knee that he would actually learn the percents to do it at.

 

[Y2Kay]

A skilled Greninja is entertaining to watch, regardless of the opponent. ◥⌐■┴■◤

My really awful Greninja MU Chart that I made is below.*

* The format is a complete rip from Falln's format, FYI. I tried to be honest and took into considerations my experience with the character, how high profile greninja mains view his MU spread, and how players of other characters view their Greninja match up. I will be open to questions

View at ur own risk.

Spoiler: plz don't kill me

Countered: clear evidence that Gren wins badly
Favorable: clear evidence that Gren wins
volatile+: there is some evidence that Gren wins, but there is also some counter-evidence; not sure
volatile=: dead even
volatile-: there is some evidence Gren loses, but there is also counter-evidence; not sure
unfavorable: clear evidence that Gren loses

 

[L9999]

Weren't y'all talking about how Fox was hard cause he just gets in and hits you? Does this sound familiar? He also has a very real disadvantaged state, I'm just sayin....

Yes but Fox is harder to hit, he has better frame data to keep the pressure going longer and he can laser camp.

First of all, good to see the repetitive Marth and Lucina discussion start the same way as always, with a complaint about their match ups being different even though they are different characters and just because they play similarly does not mean they have the same spread. Lovely.

Jab is not a good walling tool for Marth, and especially not against Falcon. Tilts and aerials are your walling tools here. Jab can work on Mario, not so well on Falcon because he can punish any move Marth does. Marth can wall Falcon out, but Falcon can just as easily break through that wall.

That's because they are not. play the exact same. They have the same frame data, the same weight, the same range, the same garbage landing options, the same recovery, and the both KO with the same moves (Foward Smash, tilts, aerials, Up Throw). The tipper does not magically make MUs +1 against everyone and MUs -1 because she doesn't have one. The bolded. Does the tipper prevent Falcon from punishing Marth from whiffing a move? Or breaking his wall? Does the lack of tipper means Lucina cannot wall out Falcon? Not at all. I said it in my Marcina VS post, what does the tipper do in the MU that make the rating so different? We don't live in a perfect world where Marth can hit tipper all the time or a world always spaces itself like a donkey to get hit easily.

On other things that don't involve Marcina, Fatality's MU chart looks legit. I agree on Falcon-Ness. Ness is bait2grab, but so is Captain Falcon, except he has the mobility to punish Ness for his baits. Up close is a nightmare. Jab pressure is too good. Down Tilt angle is the source of all evil. Rage Falcon is as much of a bleach drink as Rage Marth or Rage Mario. The obvious one is Ness offstage, as Falcon has options to ledgeguard AND edgeguard Ness. But the match-up is still very doable. Falcon is a sandbag for Ness' easy bake combos, he is PKT food, and offstage he totally sucks. Ness can keep throwing PKTs to chip damage/get a cheap gimp or get a Down Smash 2-frame. Before anyone says I play sucky Falcons on FG, I played the local top Falcon (who wrecked me and made me use Lucina instead) and I get wins on Falcons better than me because I abuse them offstage.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yes but Fox is harder to hit, he has better frame data to keep the pressure going longer and he can laser camp.


That's because they are not. play the exact same. They have the same frame data, the same weight, the same range, the same garbage landing options, the same recovery, and the both KO with the same moves (Foward Smash, tilts, aerials, Up Throw). The tipper does not magically make MUs +1 against everyone and MUs -1 because she doesn't have one. The bolded. Does the tipper prevent Falcon from punishing Marth from whiffing a move? Or breaking his wall? Does the lack of tipper means Lucina cannot wall out Falcon? Not at all. I said it in my Marcina VS post, what does the tipper do in the MU that make the rating so different? We don't live in a perfect world where Marth can hit tipper all the time or a world always spaces itself like a donkey to get hit easily.

On other things that don't involve Marcina, Fatality's MU chart looks legit. I agree on Falcon-Ness. Ness is bait2grab, but so is Captain Falcon, except he has the mobility to punish Ness for his baits. Up close is a nightmare. Jab pressure is too good. Down Tilt angle is the source of all evil. Rage Falcon is as much of a bleach drink as Rage Marth or Rage Mario. The obvious one is Ness offstage, as Falcon has options to ledgeguard AND edgeguard Ness. But the match-up is still very doable. Falcon is a sandbag for Ness' easy bake combos, he is PKT food, and offstage he totally sucks. Ness can keep throwing PKTs to chip damage/get a cheap gimp or get a Down Smash 2-frame. Before anyone says I play sucky Falcons on FG, I played the local top Falcon (who wrecked me and made me use Lucina instead) and I get wins on Falcons better than me because I abuse them offstage.

Lucina's tilts do not kill until obscene %s. Just feel like pointing this out.

Also Fox is harder to hit yea but the Falcon/Marth MU is similar in that you just don't wall either character out so yeaaaa. Kinda cruddy. Also if they're getting abused offstage and losing to you then you're better than them, simple. Don't be afraid to say the truth in that regard.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Lucina's tilts do not kill until obscene %s. Just feel like pointing this out.

Side Tilt KOs people closer to the ledge at about 140%. Up Tilt is roughly around that as well. Kinda high, not completely unrealistic.

 

[Y2Kay]

I just don't understand how Lucina is objectively worse than marth and then also have the exact same match up spread as him.

 

[ARGHETH]

I just don't understand how Lucina is objectively worse than marth and then also have the exact same match up spread as him.

There's a difference between "exact same match up spread" and "literally Marth -1 in every MU".
I'd also like to mention that this discussion was started by someone thinking that it was even based on their own experiences, not complaining about Marth and Lucina being different.

 

[Krysco]

I tend to only watch matches involving my main and secondaries for learning purposes but is entertaining to watch too. Can't really think of any specific mus I enjoy watching although I do recall a tournament back in either September or August. Larry Lurr fought one of the best Robin's, I'm guessing Dath and that particularly caught my interest since that's my main vs the main of my cousin. Overall, I'm not too interested in watching Sm4sh. Whenever a big tournament is going on, I just listen in here or in the specific thread to see if anything interesting happens like Anti pulling out Charizard or seeing if any Robins, Roys (lol, what Roys?) or Mewtwos make it very far.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Side Tilt KOs people closer to the ledge at about 140%. Up Tilt is roughly around that as well. Kinda high, not completely unrealistic.

That's pretty high tbh for a tilt compared to Marth, Honestly if they're that alive you should just Bair. Her tilts suck for killing, you basically use Utilt for combos, Dtilt for dtilt and Lucina usually never touches Ftilt tbh.

 

[FeelMeUp]

marth does better against fox than lucina because tipper aerials for edgeguarding and dthrow uair/bair
that's big enough for a +1, is it not...?

 

[Y2Kay]

There's a difference between "exact same match up spread" and "literally Marth -1 in every MU".
I'd also like to mention that this discussion was started by someone thinking that it was even based on their own experiences, not complaining about Marth and Lucina being different.

I know this much. In my opinion Tipper is polarizing in some match ups and less so in others. It feels like anytime someone has Lucina as a different ratio than Marth, there is always some Lucina main that complains. I've yet to hear from the Lucina players of a match up where they think Lucina does in fact do worse than Marth.

 

[ARGHETH]

I've yet to hear from the Lucina players of a match up where they think Lucina does in fact do worse than Marth.

I actually think that's because people are more likely to comment if they think a MU's wrong than if it's right. And since there's very few MU charts that don't have Lucina doing worse, there's going to be a lot of "this MU is wrong" posts.

 

[Das Koopa]

salem won another tournament by the way, the most recent Smash Conference in Florida (3-0, 3-2 Static Manny to win. He lost to Saj earlier in bracket but won against him in LF 3-2)

I'd recommend watching the VOD but Day is screaming the entire time so just mute it

 

[L9999]

That's pretty high tbh for a tilt compared to Marth, Honestly if they're that alive you should just Bair. Her tilts suck for killing, you basically use Utilt for combos, Dtilt for dtilt and Lucina usually never touches Ftilt tbh.

Side Tilt is very good. 11% damage is very neat, good range to stop approaches, good for getting people off if jab doesn't reach, a jab followup that is good for fastfallers, KOs (although rarely since it gets stale from multiuse), and good for getting the opponent offstage.

 

[Yonder]

A skilled Greninja is entertaining to watch, regardless of the opponent. ◥⌐■┴■◤

My really awful Greninja MU Chart that I made is below.*

* The format is a complete rip from Falln's format, FYI. I tried to be honest and took into considerations my experience with the character, how high profile greninja mains view his MU spread, and how players of other characters view their Greninja match up. I will be open to questions

View at ur own risk.

Spoiler: plz don't kill me

View attachment 119011
Countered: clear evidence that Gren wins badly
Favorable: clear evidence that Gren wins
volatile+: there is some evidence that Gren wins, but there is also some counter-evidence; not sure
volatile=: dead even
volatile-: there is some evidence Gren loses, but there is also counter-evidence; not sure
unfavorable: clear evidence that Gren loses

Somehow I find it hard to believe Luigi is along with Ganondorf, the only two "countered" characters in the game. If we are basing this on ability to get in on Greninja and mobility, something that both Ganondorf and Luigi lack, then DDD, Doc, and maybe Kirby and Zelda should join them (Kirby has a good crouch though and inhale, Zelda has...a poor reflector)

Luigi clearly loses but I think it's more based on seeing Luigi always lose to Greninja at high level play. None of the other characters in Greninjas favorable section even have tourney play against the frog so it feels like an unfair comparison. I know for sure DDD is more helpless than Luigi in the Greninja matchup.

Ganondorf is just Ganon. Makes sense.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I'm later than the white rabbit for his date from the Disney version of Alice in Wonderland (the animated one, not the Tim Burton remake) as you can see I'm a zard main and i'm pained to see him in low-tier (yes I AM A character loyalist I get the stigma that it entails). Is there any way that charizard can move up in rank?

 

[Rizen]

LucinavMarth MUs:the topic that wouldn't die lol.

Somehow I find it hard to believe Luigi is along with Ganondorf, the only two "countered" characters in the game. If we are basing this on ability to get in on Greninja and mobility, something that both Ganondorf and Luigi lack, then DDD, Doc, and maybe Kirby and Zelda should join them (Kirby has a good crouch though and inhale, Zelda has...a poor reflector)

Zelda's Nayru's isn't great as a reflector but it's not a bad move. Intangible frames 5-15, attacks 13-24, reflects 5-43, FAF 60. It can function like a counter or GTFO move.
The big thing Zelda has going for her that Ganon doesn't vs Greninja is recovery imo. Zelda isn't vulnerable to hydro pump but Ganon gets destroyed by it.

 

[Jjab430]

Fatality's MU chart.

Wonder what happened for him to say is an even matchup, lul. This seems like a pretty honest chart.

A bit late, but here are my thoughts:

The even and advantaged matchups are mostly agreeable imo, including Palutena and Shulk. I'd probably move DK and Bowser (isn't Fatality like 2-20 in sets with Lord Mix?) into slight advantage and leave the rest alone. I also still think that Falcon has a slight advantage on Rosalina but I won't get into it because I know how touchy people get over the suggestion that a non-top tier could beat a top tier.

When it comes to the 45-55s I think that it's a tad pessimistic. I'm convinced that he goes even with ZSS, Sonic, and maybe Diddy, and I feel like getting blown up by 8Bitman last year due to matchup experience had something to do with his placement of Rob. Cashmere, a Florida Falcon, beat 8bitman pretty handily recently and avoided a lot of the mistakes and gimmicks that Fatality fell for in their only encounter (not running face first into projectiles constantly, getting a hold of gyro and throwing it up instead of back at Rob's shield, DIing his up air correctly to avoid dying at 80%, etc). Ryu might be 6-4; neutral is evenish or slightly in Falcon's favor but Falcon is significantly out-rewarded and having to stay in cqc range to find a kill without dying to 2 frame shoryu confirms at 70 can be pretty scary. Not sure about TL and G&W but I can definitely see the reasoning behind both of them.

Of the 7-3s, the only one I'm really sold on is Pikachu but it's kind of a moot point because they're all somewhere in that 6-4 to 7-3—just use a secondary—range. Also, Kirby's a pain in the ass but he doesn't really have the neutral to beat Falcon (or anyone for that matter) 70-30.

 

[adom4]

A skilled Greninja is entertaining to watch, regardless of the opponent. ◥⌐■┴■◤

My really awful Greninja MU Chart that I made is below.*

* The format is a complete rip from Falln's format, FYI. I tried to be honest and took into considerations my experience with the character, how high profile greninja mains view his MU spread, and how players of other characters view their Greninja match up. I will be open to questions

View at ur own risk.

Spoiler: plz don't kill me

View attachment 119011
Countered: clear evidence that Gren wins badly
Favorable: clear evidence that Gren wins
volatile+: there is some evidence that Gren wins, but there is also some counter-evidence; not sure
volatile=: dead even
volatile-: there is some evidence Gren loses, but there is also counter-evidence; not sure
unfavorable: clear evidence that Gren loses

tbh the Greninja MU has been getting easier for me lately, it's still rather bad but as long as it's not on FD Ganon can platform pressure him somewhat well, on FD it's a hard counter though you can't hit him at all there lol.

 

[NairWizard]

The Lucina vs. Marth arguments are always asinine. There's no way that Lucina is anywhere near as good as Marth; it's an open and shut case, there's no matchup in the game where I would fear Lucina more than I would fear Marth, and as time goes on that will prove to be truer and truer because Marth will get better at figuring out applications for and actually applying his sourspots.

The selling point for Marth is that every single move he has bar like two poking tools is able to kill at reasonable percents if tippered. This means that neutral vs. Marth is inherently harder than neutral vs. other characters because losing the neutral means that you die. Sometimes, it means that you die stupid early, like from tipper f-smash, but that's not what the Mar v cina debate boils down to. No one cares that Lucina's f-smash kills stupid early or that Marth's tippered f-smash kills stupid early. The real argument is found in Marth's consistent tipper and aerial kills onstage.

If you're at risk of dying from eating a pivot f-tilt that has more range than your entire kit, it's probably pretty hard to say that you "win" the matchup. This is the dilemma that most characters face against Marth.

It's not true against Lucina and therefore Lucina is a worse character. In just about every matchup, if not every matchup. In some matchups, she's just "less worse," but still worse.

Even Pikachu, who hates Lucina's f-smash probably more than any other character, would still rather fight Lucina than Marth.

Marth to me is also easily a top10 character. He's actually pretty monstrous and underrated, especially in neutral. If you watch Nairo vs. ZeRo (although yes that was Lucina), you can see that the character actually rivals Diddy Kong in the neutral and has answers to all of Diddy's neutral tools. Pretty busted.

 

[JayE]

The Marth/Lucina argument is never gonna end lol. I don't think Marth is busted or broken but he's still pretty underrated. I know people say its optimal to play both of them, but I will always play Marth for my own reasons.

 

[bc1910]

Somehow I find it hard to believe Luigi is along with Ganondorf, the only two "countered" characters in the game. If we are basing this on ability to get in on Greninja and mobility, something that both Ganondorf and Luigi lack, then DDD, Doc, and maybe Kirby and Zelda should join them (Kirby has a good crouch though and inhale, Zelda has...a poor reflector)

Luigi clearly loses but I think it's more based on seeing Luigi always lose to Greninja at high level play. None of the other characters in Greninjas favorable section even have tourney play against the frog so it feels like an unfair comparison. I know for sure DDD is more helpless than Luigi in the Greninja matchup.

Ganondorf is just Ganon. Makes sense.

The amount of tourney play for characters in the favourable section doesn't matter in this context. The fact remains that there HAS been plenty of Luigi/Greninja tourney play and Greninja almost always wins, so it's pretty fair to list Greninja as a hard counter.

I would take Luigi over D3 any day. Both are good for the frog, but D3 has Gordo ledge setups that are incredibly difficult for Greninja to deal with due to his slow Fair and Nair, whilst taking forever to kill and benefitting a lot from the rage he is guaranteed to build up. Luigi meanwhile is dying to Uthrow nearly 50% earlier and many more things besides that, and though he is better at approaching/camping it's not by a large enough margin to swing the MU.

Doc can be harder to deal with than Mario at times. Vitamins bounce at the perfect height to shut down Greninja's hop game and he is especially vulnerable to Dthrow Fair as a fastfaller. It's +1 at best IMO, very similar to Mario in overall difficulty.

Greninja is probably at a disadvantage against Kirby if Kirby gets the inhale, which should prevent Kirby from ever being truly countered by Greninja. Unless we reach a stage where Greninja is guaranteed to not get inhaled if he plays right.

 

[Fenny]

I think some people look down on bayo's neutral because just about all of her moves extend her hurtbox along with her range. But it's as you guys are saying, the threat of witch time evens this out, and when bayo wins neutral she more often than not makes up all of the damage for losing neutral. I do think witch time is a little blown out of proportion, however. It becomes weaker when you use the move, even when it isn't triggered; Combined with how it was nerfed in both effective time and the rate of regeneration back in 1.1.5. Not saying it isn't an absolutely amazing move, but I feel like it has a weakness that no other counter has, especially if you bait it out of her with a mix of tomahawks and aerials.

The thing about WT is, while it can be baited out easily enough because of its sugoi reward, you could use it to virtual uselessness and it'd only take 20 seconds for it to rejuvenate to max again.

That's pretty insane considering its utility.

salem won another tournament by the way, the most recent Smash Conference in Florida (3-0, 3-2 Static Manny to win. He lost to Saj earlier in bracket but won against him in LF 3-2)

I'd recommend watching the VOD but Day is screaming the entire time so just mute it

The Bayo ditto MU is the most volatile in the game, bar none. God i despise it. Not even surprised about it.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Wasn't there talk of a possible balance patch a page ago?

 

[Deleted member]

The reason Fatality probably considers Shulk to be even is that he's fought Tremendo Dude in the past and they've had hella close games. Tremendo Dude also beat Acid 2-0 at VGCS I believe about a month ago but he's really not the most relevant Falcon there is right now.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean...Marth can kill from a safe poke that most of the cast can't challenge. (Nair)

That is kind of a big deal.

But lucinas still aren't Nair confirming into fsmash soooooooo...idk

 

[meticulousboy]

Captain Falcon vs. Peach should be 45:55 respectively, not even. I mentioned before that Peach can do a ton of damage off of combos if the opponent is a fast faller.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

The reason Fatality probably considers Shulk to be even is that he's fought Tremendo Dude in the past and they've had hella close games. Tremendo Dude also beat Acid 2-0 at VGCS I believe about a month ago but he's really not the most relevant Falcon there is right now.

I meant to respond to you earlier about the Shulk match up, but completely forgot, I'm sorry.

Anyway, careful use of Monado arts, while obviously good and needed in every match up, allows Shulk to contend with Falcon at some of his best traits. Falcon's fall speed makes it easier for Shulk to land his low percent combos, speed allows him to get close easier and abuse his weirder hit boxes. Speed has always felt like the most frustrating art to go against as Falcon to me because it allows Shulk to just burst through Falcon's neutral momentarily, not necessarily forcing a Shulk advantage but just throwing a wrench in the plan. But unfortunately for Shulk it wears off and the others are much more manageable. Falcon's fast enough to continue sharking if Shulk uses jump, Shield is good for just ignoring Falcon's kill moves for a little while since there aren't a lot of set ups into kill moves. But the problem for Shulk is that when Falcon gets he struggles to get him back out. This limits buster use a bit more because of the lack of as much shield safty making it easier for Falcon to get in and capitalize on teh damage boost he gets from Shulk using buster while also allowing him to keep pressuring. Don't use Smash on Falcon, wouldn't recommend unless you're sure you can just grab at the ledge and down throw for the kill. The risk isn't worth it against Falcon otherwise. They both get blown up off stage. Powershielding air slash 2 if shulk goes high to try and hit Falcon away allows for dtilt get rid of Shulk. Shulk can pull a Marth and just swing his giant sword off stage and kill Falcon if read right.

Basically, Shulks ability to either ignore some of Falcon's strengths allows him to keep neutral even, Shulk's stray hits allow for good stage positioning on Falcon, but Falcon juggles Shulk hard and they both struggle off stage.

Captain Falcon vs. Peach should be 45:55 respectively, not even. I mentioned before that Peach can do a ton of damage off of combos if the opponent is a fast faller.

Refer to my post from last time.

 

[|RK|]

Anyway, swap Kirby and Sheik and 40-60 and 30-70 area would be good. Kirby doesn't win because he's small. Crouching has counterplay. Pikachu being small is a reason for him however because landing with most of his aerials and even a few of his grounded moves make him small enough to avoid some of Falcon's attacks. Kirby doesn't have that, all he has is crouch. Kirby is also rather easy to string hits together on and doesn't have an amazing disadvantage either. I personally think Falcon/Kirby is closer to even but I can completely understand a Kirby advantage.

I want to correct one thing here - Kirby does have that. And because his normal crouch has an animation that makes him super small sometimes and decently small at other times, it can actually be inconsistent (not on Falcon tho) - at it's lowest point, he ducks Rosalina's grab and Little Mac's KO punch. His hard landing lag - like Pikachu's - flattens him to his lowest possible state on some aerials. So we can actually be proactive with our small size just as Pikachu can. Other things that trigger this are airdodging into the ground and using our dtilt.

 

[Deleted member]

I meant to respond to you earlier about the Shulk match up, but completely forgot, I'm sorry.

Anyway, careful use of Monado arts, while obviously good and needed in every match up, allows Shulk to contend with Falcon at some of his best traits. Falcon's fall speed makes it easier for Shulk to land his low percent combos, speed allows him to get close easier and abuse his weirder hit boxes. Speed has always felt like the most frustrating art to go against as Falcon to me because it allows Shulk to just burst through Falcon's neutral momentarily, not necessarily forcing a Shulk advantage but just throwing a wrench in the plan. But unfortunately for Shulk it wears off and the others are much more manageable. Falcon's fast enough to continue sharking if Shulk uses jump, Shield is good for just ignoring Falcon's kill moves for a little while since there aren't a lot of set ups into kill moves. But the problem for Shulk is that when Falcon gets he struggles to get him back out. This limits buster use a bit more because of the lack of as much shield safty making it easier for Falcon to get in and capitalize on teh damage boost he gets from Shulk using buster while also allowing him to keep pressuring. Don't use Smash on Falcon, wouldn't recommend unless you're sure you can just grab at the ledge and down throw for the kill. The risk isn't worth it against Falcon otherwise. They both get blown up off stage. Powershielding air slash 2 if shulk goes high to try and hit Falcon away allows for dtilt get rid of Shulk. Shulk can pull a Marth and just swing his giant sword off stage and kill Falcon if read right.

Basically, Shulks ability to either ignore some of Falcon's strengths allows him to keep neutral even, Shulk's stray hits allow for good stage positioning on Falcon, but Falcon juggles Shulk hard and they both struggle off stage.

Refer to my post from last time.

I agree with your post. Though Shulk is able to perfectly snap the ledge with Air Slash 1, so keep that in mind. It's very important for Shulk to keep his jump, but using Jump Art to recover against Falcon is a lot less risky as it is in a lot of matchups. Few characters have much to threaten Shulk with if he recovers high with Jump.

Smash Art is absolutely a big no no against Falcon, it's his worst Art and hurts him in a lot of MUs than it does help. It's very usable against characters like since they're matchups where Shulk can use the Art with less risk if he's even or in advantage at stock/percent. Being featherweights also helps.

Shulk being able to contest Falcon's mobility is an important boon in the matchup, as you mentioned with him being able to go in and weave with Jump/Speed. Buster low percent combos also can rack mean damage due to his fastfaller status, and he has a large range for Purge (Shulk's 50/50) for similar reasons. I used to think this was a **** matchup for Shulk, he probably still loses it but I can see the logic for it being even.

The character still has to be mindful of Falcon's rushdown and if he's put in a bad position offstage it's over for Shulk. Using Shulk's movement, being mindful of spacing and recovering smartly allows him to perform against Falcon well for the most part. So many Shulks (myself included) throw unsafe garbage on Falcon's shield and hope to get away with it or just try to fish for pivot grabs in Speed, two things a smart Falcon will easily exploit.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I want to correct one thing here - Kirby does have that. And because his normal crouch has an animation that makes him super small sometimes and decently small at other times, it can actually be inconsistent (not on Falcon tho) - at it's lowest point, he ducks Rosalina's grab and Little Mac's KO punch. His hard landing lag - like Pikachu's - flattens him to his lowest possible state on some aerials. So we can actually be proactive with our small size just as Pikachu can. Other things that trigger this are airdodging into the ground and using our dtilt.

That's three things, only two of which are consistent and they're all things that happen because of crouch. Pikachu has these and more, without having to crouch. Using down smash makes pikachu too small to grab, you have to wait for him to sit up more in the end lag and grab him, using bair pancakes him to the ground and makes him near impossible to touch for Falcon. Kirby just crouching is punishable with Falcon's own dtilt, bair, or Falcon kick. Pikachu can crawl or quick attack away to avoid those things. Kirby can't.

Though Shulk is able to perfectly snap the ledge with Air Slash 1

He can, but it's rather linear, hence why I mentioned the Air Slash 2 mix up. Air Slash 1 is still a bit slow, it's like dolphin slash but much easier to punish. I can't remember off the top of my head if it has a disjoint above Shulk like dolphin slash does either.