Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Megamang]

This happens on the megaman boards, but i tend to not take larry getting in and doing insane damage at face value. It is his entire style, and he is probably better then his opponent significantly, as only a very few players are on his level.

I also think Marth has progressed massively, recently... thanks for finding those of course, but id love more recent stuff. I dont think this is a video searching issue, i just dont think its happened too much recently.

I realize im basically asking for the perfect MU analysis video to land in my lap. I guess this is the dark side of a larger choice of viable chars!


But IME (and from the dearth of good dairs / cast full of amazing uairs) most characters are bad at landing. How does fox get Marth airborne? DA (DB punishes hard from shield) utilt (out ranged easily, and disjoint makes marth better at contesting it than brawlers)?

I know itll happen... but so will fox offstage. Maybe they both blow eachother up, but that doesnt mean fox wins or he'd always win.

 

[FeelMeUp]

PP Utilt flawlessly whiff punishes the entirety of Marth's kit aside from fadeback fair and ftilt.

 

[-AV-]

Lucario is definitely too low. Super unexplored character in my opinion. Ryu is too high and Charizard definitely has better options than the others in H tier.

 

[Das Koopa]

These 10 are responsible for a combined 63.6% of tournament wins since 1.1.5

#funfax

This isn't including secondaries outside of a few specific players (Komo, Abadango, K9, etc.) who co-main.

Currently disorganized but here's what 30 mins of research got me:

Spoiler: Tourney Win Data, Only 1st Place

Certain players will have both characters counted as primaries.
-Komorikiri, MKLeo, K9, ANTi, Blacktwins, Abadango
Secondaries and primaries otherwise separated.
Total tournament number: 48 (1.1.5) 75 (1.1.6) 43 (Phase 3, October 16th)
166 Total

Primaries:
Zero Suit Samus: 15
Bayonetta: 16
Diddy Kong: 19
Mario: 12
Sheik: 14
Rosalina & Luma: 7
Cloud: 15
Sonic: 13
Fox: 11
Mewtwo: 4
Mega Man: 4
Marth: 8
Ryu: 6
Meta Knight: 10
Olimar: 3
Donkey Kong: 2
Wario: 4
Pikachu: 5
Greninja: 3
R.O.B.: 2
Captain Falcon: 2
Peach: 1
Corrin: 2
Shulk: 1
Ness: 2
Lucario: 2
Charizard: 1
Palutena: 1
Yoshi: 1
Lucina: 1
Link: 1
Luigi: 1
Pit: 1
Robin: 2
Mr. Game & Watch: 2

Secondaries:
Diddy Kong: 3
Mewtwo: 3
Roy: 1
Luigi: 1
Mario: 2
Bayonetta: 1
Wario: 2
Olimar: 1
R.O.B: 1
Lucas: 1
Cloud: 9
Fox: 1
Sheik: 2
Sonic: 1
Marth: 2
Charizard: 1
Toon Link: 1
Donkey Kong: 4
Lucina: 1
Samus: 1
Rosalina & Luma: 1
Zero Suit Samus: 1

 

[Swamp Sensei]

These 10 are responsible for a combined 63.6% of tournament wins since 1.1.5

#funfax

This isn't including secondaries outside of a few specific players (Komo, Abadango, K9, etc.) who co-main.

Currently disorganized but here's what 30 mins of research got me:

Spoiler: Tourney Win Data, Only 1st Place

Certain players will have both characters counted as primaries.
-Komorikiri, MKLeo, K9, ANTi, Blacktwins, Abadango
Secondaries and primaries otherwise separated.
Total tournament number: 48 (1.1.5) 75 (1.1.6) 43 (Phase 3, October 16th)
166 Total

Primaries:
Zero Suit Samus: 15
Bayonetta: 16
Diddy Kong: 19
Mario: 12
Sheik: 14
Rosalina & Luma: 7
Cloud: 15
Sonic: 13
Fox: 11
Mewtwo: 4
Mega Man: 4
Marth: 8
Ryu: 6
Meta Knight: 10
Olimar: 3
Donkey Kong: 2
Wario: 4
Pikachu: 5
Greninja: 3
R.O.B.: 2
Captain Falcon: 2
Peach: 1
Corrin: 2
Shulk: 1
Ness: 2
Lucario: 2
Charizard: 1
Palutena: 1
Yoshi: 1
Lucina: 1
Link: 1
Luigi: 1
Pit: 1
Robin: 2
Mr. Game & Watch: 2

Secondaries:
Diddy Kong: 3
Mewtwo: 3
Roy: 1
Luigi: 1
Mario: 2
Bayonetta: 1
Wario: 2
Olimar: 1
R.O.B: 1
Lucas: 1
Cloud: 9
Fox: 1
Sheik: 2
Sonic: 1
Marth: 2
Charizard: 1
Toon Link: 1
Donkey Kong: 4
Lucina: 1
Samus: 1
Rosalina & Luma: 1
Zero Suit Samus: 1

I know this is more work for you, but can we have a list of characters that have no tournament wins through a primary or secondary for reference?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People are finally realizing that Wario is low tier? Good, he's been given the benefit of doubt for way too long now.

He was a pretty good character in the earlier stages of the game. Then VI got patched out, his survivability suffered [one of his most important traits] and using rage waft for early kills got a ton more complicated. Then over time a lot of characters received buffs whereas Wario received none. Marcina's ****ty hitboxes got fixed shifting the matchups from even/slight Wario favor to pretty much unwinnable. Mewtwo, DK, Robin, Bowser, Ike, Samus - all these characters used to be favorable matchups for Wario until they got buffed. Now these matchups at best are even. Wario pretty much ran out of matchups that are in his favor because characters either got buffed or weren't in Wario's favor in the first place - including such amazing characters as Ganondorf or DDD.

He does decently against small, projectile based characters like Villager, Megaman, Pac-Man, Duck Hnt and others because his Bike is a very good move to counter projectile walls and because an early waft kill can kind of ruin their game plan.

How are Wario's MUs? I know he gets wrecked by Cloud. DLC has probably hurt his viability.

Sheik has a clear advantage against Wario but it's volatile because rage wafts are a thing in this matchup.

Against Diddy Kong Wario doesn't stand much of a chance - fair, dtilt and bair completely wall him out for a start.

I firmly believe that Cloud should never lose this matchup if both players are eveny skilled.

Mario has often been considered to be Wario's worst matchup and it's not hard to see why. Mario totally covers Wario's option on all fronts, especially thanks to his superior aerial mobility and bair's range.

Many Wario players find Sonic to be his worst matchups. I don't think it's that bad, it just requires Wario to play extremely lame by getting a lead and throwing bikes into Sonic's spin dash attempts. Sonic still likely wins though.

Fox wins because it's Fox and you all saw what Marss did to Reflex at TBH6 with ZSS.

I consider Mewtwo to be a winnable matchup for Wario, not sure if I'd go as far as calling it even though. He does have a pretty nice record against Rosalina though, that matchup is likely even.

Bayonetta is a matchup I know little about. Didn't Reflex lose to Pink Fresh at some tournament though? It's not easy to see this matchup solidly in Bayonetta's favor though.

...

Other characters that have considerable advantages against Wario are Marcina, Shulk, Corrin and Ike. Notable characters that Wario is even with or close to it are Rosalina, Mewtwo, Villager, Mega Man, Pikachu, Lucario and Luigi.

These 10 are responsible for a combined 63.6% of tournament wins since 1.1.5

Honestly, at this point everybody who calls a character outside of this group a "top 10 character" has some serious explaining to do. Too often do we hear people call Marth, Lucario, Ryu, Pikachu, Corrin or Mega Man "potentially" top 10 against such a mountain of data that shows them wrong. This is the objectively estabished top 10 of this game until further notice.

 

[Nobie]

Mario has often been considered to be Wario's worst matchup and it's not hard to see why. Mario totally covers Wario's option on all fronts, especially thanks to his superior aerial mobility and bair's range.

Not saying you're wrong about the matchup (I don't know enough about it), but actually Wario's aerial mobility is superior to Mario's. So that in itself I don't think is a factor. Perhaps the fact that Mario's aerial mobility is good enough to keep up with Wario?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I guess it depends on how you define 'aerial mobility'. When it comes to air speed and other raw values Wario is surely ahead in just about every area but these traits are either not that important [such air friction] or Mario has quite good values himself [air speed]. Feel free to disagree here but I consider jumpsquat to be part of a character's air mobility and that one frame Mario has over Wario there outweighs all the insignificant leads Wario has in other areas.

 

[Ilikebugs]

These 10 are responsible for a combined 63.6% of tournament wins since 1.1.5

#funfax

This isn't including secondaries outside of a few specific players (Komo, Abadango, K9, etc.) who co-main.

Currently disorganized but here's what 30 mins of research got me:

Spoiler: Tourney Win Data, Only 1st Place

Certain players will have both characters counted as primaries.
-Komorikiri, MKLeo, K9, ANTi, Blacktwins, Abadango
Secondaries and primaries otherwise separated.
Total tournament number: 48 (1.1.5) 75 (1.1.6) 43 (Phase 3, October 16th)
166 Total

Primaries:
Zero Suit Samus: 15
Bayonetta: 16
Diddy Kong: 19
Mario: 12
Sheik: 14
Rosalina & Luma: 7
Cloud: 15
Sonic: 13
Fox: 11
Mewtwo: 4
Mega Man: 4
Marth: 8
Ryu: 6
Meta Knight: 10
Olimar: 3
Donkey Kong: 2
Wario: 4
Pikachu: 5
Greninja: 3
R.O.B.: 2
Captain Falcon: 2
Peach: 1
Corrin: 2
Shulk: 1
Ness: 2
Lucario: 2
Charizard: 1
Palutena: 1
Yoshi: 1
Lucina: 1
Link: 1
Luigi: 1
Pit: 1
Robin: 2
Mr. Game & Watch: 2

Secondaries:
Diddy Kong: 3
Mewtwo: 3
Roy: 1
Luigi: 1
Mario: 2
Bayonetta: 1
Wario: 2
Olimar: 1
R.O.B: 1
Lucas: 1
Cloud: 9
Fox: 1
Sheik: 2
Sonic: 1
Marth: 2
Charizard: 1
Toon Link: 1
Donkey Kong: 4
Lucina: 1
Samus: 1
Rosalina & Luma: 1
Zero Suit Samus: 1

Ya but Marth and Meta Knight have more wins than Rosa :x Still think Rosa is top 10, it just seems a bit misleading to include Rosa.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Wario just seems like a better Jiggs.

He is. It's just that that's not really saying very much.

Honestly, at this point everybody who calls a character outside of this group a "top 10 character" has some serious explaining to do. Too often do we hear people call Marth, Lucario, Ryu, Pikachu, Corrin or Mega Man "potentially" top 10 against such a mountain of data that shows them wrong. This is the objectively estabished top 10 of this game until further notice.

Honestly, I reckon that when quite a few folks are saying 'this character is potentially top 10', they don't actually always mean top 10, but rather 'this character is solid and can compete well in the right hands', a descriptor which folks are used to being synonymous with 'top 10'.

With respect to Lucario, I actually envisage him as being like a slightly inferior version of Rosalina, with high-percent Lucario being equivalent to Rosa + Luma together, and low percent Lucario being equivalent to solo Rosa. Over time, I can definitely imagine a small handful of MUs proving incredibly frustrating for him.

 

[|RK|]

I think some of these characters could be top 10 depending on how the meta advances. The current top 10 has the results they do because they were picked up en masse or they've already had years of meta advancement.

I could totally see Marth, for example, getting there with time or an increased player base. And I think that's the disconnect - some people are saying top 10 as in "results-wise, this is it," and others are just talking about potential of the character.

 

[DunnoBro]

Cloud is wario's worst MU easily now. It used to be dthrow sheik, with mario a close 2nd but cloud just... negates wario at every turn, demanding hard reads just to win neutral.

Mario was a bad MU for a few reasons:

1: Mario's low-investment in all aspects of the game make it hard for wario to get the kill. There's no laggy move or exploitable recovery to punish and his air mobility also makes it hard to consistently punish his airdodges (with waft)

2: Wario's low priority on his aerials make him hard combo food, letting strings honestly go on longer than they do vs most superheavies.

3: Mario kills most consistently via anti-airing, so while he still fears rage wario, wario's playstyle inherently puts himself in a position to die.

Overall Wario is just a bit undertuned and linear with his win conditions. Ledge traps, waft, and hail marys are all he has in a world where top tiers (mainly DLC) all have ridiculous mobility and range, some even have chargeable wafts or static comeback kill options. (Witch time, finishing touch, disable... See the trend?)

 

[Megamang]

I find megaman keeps wario out easily. Pellet play works well, nairs hitbox is good and fast enough to be a decent wall. Fair works well for a2a. Landing uair tends to scoop him up for an easy 20+% (bair or another uair followup) if he goes for an aerial.

Bike doesnt stop zoning well. Metal blade and well placed pellets knock him off.

Also, underexplored leaf shield play looks to be really tough for him. Metal blade assault + leaf shield + shield works quite well in chip damage timeout wars. Grounded, he has to make some serious reads just to do damage, since grounded walks will shield spacing aerials, leaf shield often stumps bite.

Also, speaking of high rewards? Glide toss forwards is 22 damage with a bair confirm. Glide toss down is footstool combo territory, aka death. Time the leaf shield to be disappearing as you run in, you have about a one second window where a dash in footstool is also death via zdrop combo.

Ive been labbing this and it honestly looks terrifying for some characters. If you dont have good grab reward mega's shield is quite frustrating.

Leaf shield is great because you take all the lag up front. If your pelleting goal is to just make some space, its easy to succeed with them to get the shield out. Getting the blade on the field is also very fluid, since down tosses put a hitbox out and confirm to kills themselves around shoryuken percentages, and picking the blade up is ezpz with nairs.

Leaf shield without the blade is also option rich. Toss the shield beats almost all projectiles, and is good for beating landings with its large hitbox. Shielding loses to dashgrab (as do most not good hitboxes) and with leaves and backthrow (which drags skinny characters thru 2 leaves usually) your grab reward is as good as most BnBs.


I think if we consider absurd reward a prerequisite for top characters (where are shieks and diddies though?), a footstool OR JCGTD confirming into death is pretty good, especially when you have a circulating hitbox that seems to true combo into footstools if youre running. If they jump away to time out leafshield, no big deal at all... just trap their landing with OoS blade toss into bair, which gets better as they sacrifice stage position.


Thoughts? Ive been thinking about these neutral options a lot. I know fast chars like fox can stuff the leaf shield pull (which sucks at the ledge, hard) but if you make their goal to stop its startup, you get good grab/pellet/uair/fair openings.

 

[FeelMeUp]

It's too bad Witch Twist makes it stop working, but thoughts?

 

[Nu~]

It's too bad Witch Twist makes it stop working, but thoughts?

"Marth has no tech" they said

Geez this is beautiful

 

[Ethan7]

Honestly, at this point everybody who calls a character outside of this group a "top 10 character" has some serious explaining to do. Too often do we hear people call Marth, Lucario, Ryu, Pikachu, Corrin or Mega Man "potentially" top 10 against such a mountain of data that shows them wrong. This is the objectively estabished top 10 of this game until further notice.

But and have more tournament wins than but she is listed and they aren't. Das Koopa didn't actually say they are the top 10.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Das Koopa didn't actually say they are the top 10.

I know he didn't - but I did.

 

[Ethan7]

I know he didn't - but I did.

So you don't think Rosa is top 10?

 

[Game7a1]

I feel like the Stun Jacket discussion has more merit in the Mechanics and Techniques discussion thread, but whatever generates discussion, I suppose.
To give a small rundown, here are the characters who can use Stun Jacket.
(her Neutral B)
Any attack from them will cause Stun Jacket effect (that little freeze) to trigger, including Item Throws.
(I'm unsure about if Bayonetta can use it or not because the video wasn't all that clear.)
And here are the moves that activate Stun Jacket.
: Bullet Arts (not really a move but still)
: Reflector
: Down Smash (confirmed on the video's reddit thread)
: Sing (This is something I tested and confirmed, but it's a lot more situational compared to the other three, but the possibility exists.)
Haven't had luck with any other move. Most of those that worked in Brawl that could trigger the Stun Jacket don't seem to work in Smash 4.
All the characters that can give Stun Jacket have at least one multi-hitting move, so they can at least cancel it.

 

[Megamang]

Are there more specific criteria than the counter whiffing? Because marth can counter pac's hydrant and miss, not sure exactly what triggers it but it happens.

Sorry if this was a bad question, but countering fire hydrant seems niche enough they might have missed it.

Also, its too bad greninja's counter is punishable on hit -.-

At least it can get some early kills if they trigger it with a super laggy move.

---

Waaaay back, someone (i think ~ Gheb ~ or @Shaya ) said that stall n fall moves that go forwards like shiek and zss's dair (are there others? Bowsers doesn't count, sonics is already used for landing mixups) would be used for powerful whiff punishes in the air, since they can cause and punish mispaces. Well, it seems like Marss decided to start utilizing this heavily; he was dairing all over TBH6. CosmicCosmos also does a similar ish thing with Corrin dair; it doesnt have the forwards movement but it has a big hitbox and really solid confirms. Hell, i even get hard knuckles on misspaces juggles from time to time. On platforms this can confirm into uair, or utilt on airdodges that can occur from late tech attempts.


And also this thread talked about the power of SHAD over rolls, and I noticed Nairo favoring them even though ZSS cant aerial from them iirc.


So, my question is: does anyone want to mention a technique, trick, etc that they believe has hidden power or will have high usage in the future?

Heres my mediocre one:

Ive been walking grabbing to cover options in some situations, since greninja's s.grab has wayyy less recovery, you get free jabs on a spotdodge and a SHAD or roll isnt as punishing. I noticed Ally like this at the ledge with Mario, probably because he can chase a ledgejump faster (his favorite!)

But id love to hear some others! I know if we could predict the meta completely we'd be out there winning errything, but any tools you use where you go "damn why isnt this popular"?

 

[mountain_tiger]

But id love to hear some others! I know if we could predict the meta completely we'd be out there winning errything, but any tools you use where you go "damn why isnt this popular"?

Assuming that you're playing a character with the recovery to do it, going in stupidly deep when edgeguarding, rather than sticking to the edge like glue.

It's largely still seen as a high-risk, high-reward strategy, but with a lot of characters (scattered everywhere across the tier list), it's more like a low-risk, high-reward strategy. If they guess wrong, they're doomed. If they guess right... they might still be doomed.

Granted, in some tourneys you see it happening all the time... just not as often as one would potentially expect given the dividends.

 

[Nu~]

Pacman mains need to start crawling (you can crawl under diddy's rising aerials :0) , BF cancelling into smash attacks/tilts/aerials, using side B for tech chases and shield brakes, stop launching the hydrant in nuetral....


A lot of stuff needs to be done. The character needs a reboot for his meta because the current pacman mains are still trying to go down the same path of circle camping the hydrant and running away to set up. There's an over-focus on z dropping as well that gets them killed when they get carried away.


I really want to change that...

 

[Game7a1]

Are there more specific criteria than the counter whiffing? Because marth can counter pac's hydrant and miss, not sure exactly what triggers it but it happens.

The move to counter needs to have certain properties. Reading up the tech in Brawl, the move had to be a disjointed, non-projectile, transcendent move or something to that nature. So projectiles like Link's Hero Bow were out of the question.

However, it seems Counters like Marth's and Ike's changed in the transition from Brawl to Smash 4 as most moves that trigger the Stun Jacket don't work (either that or the moves that once triggered it got changed or both). Windboxes used to, but now they don't even activate counters. And looking at the moves that could fit the criteria on some wikis (not the most reliable source, I know), either the counters wouldn't whiff or if they did, it would be near impossible to get in a 1 v 1 competitive environment.

I did test some suggestions that were brought up, and none of them worked. I even tried Star Bits and Luma Shot because of how they are but to no avail. At the very least, Stun Jacket is usable against 2 top tiers, so it isn't something to ignore.

 

[thehard]

Are there more specific criteria than the counter whiffing? Because marth can counter pac's hydrant and miss, not sure exactly what triggers it but it happens.

Sorry if this was a bad question, but countering fire hydrant seems niche enough they might have missed it.

Also, its too bad greninja's counter is punishable on hit -.-

At least it can get some early kills if they trigger it with a super laggy move.

---

Waaaay back, someone (i think ~ Gheb ~ or @Shaya ) said that stall n fall moves that go forwards like shiek and zss's dair (are there others? Bowsers doesn't count, sonics is already used for landing mixups) would be used for powerful whiff punishes in the air, since they can cause and punish mispaces. Well, it seems like Marss decided to start utilizing this heavily; he was dairing all over TBH6. CosmicCosmos also does a similar ish thing with Corrin dair; it doesnt have the forwards movement but it has a big hitbox and really solid confirms. Hell, i even get hard knuckles on misspaces juggles from time to time. On platforms this can confirm into uair, or utilt on airdodges that can occur from late tech attempts.


And also this thread talked about the power of SHAD over rolls, and I noticed Nairo favoring them even though ZSS cant aerial from them iirc.


So, my question is: does anyone want to mention a technique, trick, etc that they believe has hidden power or will have high usage in the future?

Heres my mediocre one:

Ive been walking grabbing to cover options in some situations, since greninja's s.grab has wayyy less recovery, you get free jabs on a spotdodge and a SHAD or roll isnt as punishing. I noticed Ally like this at the ledge with Mario, probably because he can chase a ledgejump faster (his favorite!)

But id love to hear some others! I know if we could predict the meta completely we'd be out there winning errything, but any tools you use where you go "damn why isnt this popular"?

Shield crossups and varying your shield poke/landing timings. In Smash 4 you have access to Brawl-like fall speeds and Melee-like fastfall speeds, as well as the ability to cancel fastfalls with aerials- there is so much growth to be made in this area.

You don't really see much of the Day 0 tech that is ftilting/fsmashing out of runs unless Larry or Fatality are playing either. For the good ftilts you're basically putting out a hitbox on both sides of you during a run which can start combos (even more so because people aren't ready to DI it) or lock.

In general I think the slip-slidey physic quirks of the game will be mined a lot more in the coming years, with VoiD leading the way. Stepdash, landing while turning around, etc

Also Marios WILL start using hella more dtilt

 

[TheGoodGuava]

The only "hidden" tech I can think of for charizard is grounded footstool > up special

It's a frame 8 super armor oos option that kills ~120. I also think diddy can get a lot from nair > footstool

 

[Krysco]

With the way the video describes it, it seems the 'stun jacket' affects the attacker and not the counterer. If that's true then it can't be used as a sort of team synergy in doubles. Overall, anything that helps Roy in even the slightest makes me happy. Of all the characters that can make use of it, I would imagine Greninja having the most opportunities since he can control where his counter hitbox goes and therefore can whiff more often. That being said, it's a niche tech as it is and is completely dependent on the opponent using certain moves that they can just not use.

As for tech, I might be talking out my *** here since I don't watch too many matches but I'm surprised how little EDD is used. Seems to fill a similar role to dash dancing in Melee and you can mix in dash dancing and perfect pivoting with it.

 

[ぱみゅ]

At least in Brawl, the Jacket activated when Marth countered a non-projectile hitbox and it missed the target.
It was very difficult to use properly because the hitboxes were generally smaller, so it would rarely activate at all, plus it wore off after hitting a shield, and I am pretty sure it did wear off after being hit himself with any move.
Bayonetta was a perfect example because Bullet Arts are, in fact, huge disjoints.

 

[Nu~]

It doesn't work with projectiles in this game either. I know that pacman's fruit and hydrant don't give Marth the stun jacket. Mario's fireballs and dr.mario's pills don't either.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Bayonetta was a perfect example because Bullet Arts are, in fact, huge disjoints.

A design choice that continues to baffle me to this day. The only explanation I can think of is that they figured it was easier to just attach huge hitboxes to her and have them rapidfire instead of spewing out tiny baby bullets.

The video neglected to mention Peach, but another comment says she can do it too. Which...okay, I'll buy that, but it still strikes me as odd since I think Toad's spores are technically projectiles.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

A design choice that continues to baffle me to this day. The only explanation I can think of is that they figured it was easier to just attach huge hitboxes to her and have them rapidfire instead of spewing out tiny baby bullets.

The video neglected to mention Peach, but another comment says she can do it too. Which...okay, I'll buy that, but it still strikes me as odd since I think Toad's spores are technically projectiles.

Toad's spores are projectiles they can be absorbed and reflected.

The tech is really cool, though if Bullet Arts are the only move of Bayo's that triggers it then a Bayo could avoid using them all together. It's still a nice thing to be aware of if you do manage to catch Bayo firing giving you additional kill set ups.

Is Bayo's Neutral B a projectile or does it behave like her bullet arts? Because if so then that does hurt Bayo's game

 

[verbatim]

Pacman mains need to start crawling (you can crawl under diddy's rising aerials :0) , BF cancelling into smash attacks/tilts/aerials, using side B for tech chases and shield brakes, stop launching the hydrant in nuetral....


A lot of stuff needs to be done. The character needs a reboot for his meta because the current pacman mains are still trying to go down the same path of circle camping the hydrant and running away to set up. There's an over-focus on z dropping as well that gets them killed when they get carried away.


I really want to change that...

You are right, but lot's of things ARE being done to change that, they just don't all end up in vines.

Most new things being found these days involve using the Hydrant and Trampoline to establish stage control and new edgeguarding options.

Things that you might be interested in:
https://smashboards.com/threads/things-pac-man-players-need-to-stop-start-doing.440087/
https://smashboards.com/threads/pac-man-discord-community.426513/

 

[Nu~]

You are right, but lot's of things ARE being done to change that, they just don't all end up in vines.

Most new things being found these days involve using the Hydrant and Trampoline to establish stage control and new edgeguarding options.

Things that you might be interested in:
https://smashboards.com/threads/things-pac-man-players-need-to-stop-start-doing.440087/
https://smashboards.com/threads/pac-man-discord-community.426513/

Dude...this is pacman9 lol. I've posted in that thread and I've been to the discord community.

Hxey has some good info but most of it has either already been discovered or is far too passive (that "bunker" technique for instance) for my taste. I have a different vision for the character.


I left the discord previously because I was feeling glum about pacman. Well...that and the constant crying about cloud was unbearable.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Toad's spores are projectiles they can be absorbed and reflected.

The tech is really cool, though if Bullet Arts are the only move of Bayo's that triggers it then a Bayo could avoid using them all together. It's still a nice thing to be aware of if you do manage to catch Bayo firing giving you additional kill set ups.

Is Bayo's Neutral B a projectile or does it behave like her bullet arts? Because if so then that does hurt Bayo's game

Bullet Climax is a projectile.

And if it works like in Brawl, it would activate with any disjoint, quick poke, or a move that moves the opponent too quickly.
Think of Witch Twist, Shuttle Loop, max range on Cloud's Fsmash, etc.

 

[Game7a1]

Bullet Climax is a projectile.

And if it works like in Brawl, it would activate with any disjoint, quick poke, or a move that moves the opponent too quickly.
Think of Witch Twist, Shuttle Loop, max range on Cloud's Fsmash, etc.

Well, Shuttle Loop and Cloud's F-Smash don't trigger Stun Jacket, but Witch Twist does trigger it. Interesting.
(Just tested these.)
EDIT: Re-tested Witch Twist. It doesn't trigger Stun Jacket. I must have held B for too long. Sorry.

 

[AWildCedricAppeared]

• Well can you give some examples of the tech, tricks, and combos that Kirby has?

I said this in a previous post, and you can look at any of Phan7om's videos on YouTube (he's an amazingly technical player btw, one of my favourites), but Kirby has a lot of unexplored tech. Starting with his copy ability, he has reliable kill confirms with DK, Samus, Pac-Man, Shulk, Sonic, ZSS, Robin and Ike. footstool locks with Megaman, Pac-Man and Shulk. Shield breaks with Robin, DK, Magaman and Samus. And jab-locks with Rosa, Wario, DHD, Megaman, Pac-Man and Shulk. (These are just off the top of my head, there are probably a few I'm missing.) Plus there is all the true copy ability combos on MySmashCorner's video, and character specific tech like pluck gliding with Olimar's or MALLC with Shulk. People tend to overlook his copy ability, but it's still a major factor in the matchup. Then there is the general stuff like footstool locks with u-tilt and falling u-air, or footstool to stone or d-air. And PP U-tilt being an amazing tool to catch people off guard while being a combo starter. Other tech may include his increased tomahawk game with HUP cancelling and HUP shield drop cancel, his edge cancelled rapid jab, his bounteous jab locks with n-air and b-air to be the hard to tech move and d-tilt being his standard locking tool, and his sweetspottable recovery. And now for his combos, I believe he has almost enough combos to rival Shiek or Bayonetta, that may be a bit of a call out, but he does have amazing true combos on all characters. It's hard to name them all, but they usually start with f-throw, u-tilt, d-tilt trip, d-air, b-throw, reverse falling u-air, and n-air. These are also mixed with u-tilt<u-air strings, regrabs, repeated f-throw or u-tilt<d-air, the first 1 or 2 hits of f-air, and b-air locks. Hope this is enough tech for you (This can also be a reply to Megamang since this is tech that needs to be recognized)

 

[NairWizard]

Mario has one of the longest stepdashes, and given that his grounded burst range is one of the character's biggest flaws, this could be huge going forward.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So you don't think Rosa is top 10?

I think you misunderstood him; Rosalina is in his top 10 list. I also happen to agree that those 10 are the top 10 characters. Characters like Mega Man, Lucario, and Meta Knight are strong characters as well, but I don't think they really deserve to be considered top 10 (for the time being, at least).

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Tbh I think Marth and ZSS are interchangeable on the top 10 list. Marths results lately have been a bit more solid

 

[FeelMeUp]

Tbh I think Marth and ZSS are interchangeable on the top 10 list. Marths results lately have been a bit more solid

In what world?

 

[Deleted member]

Earlier on @Plain Yogurt talked about how he believes Shulk does well against Bayonetta. While I really don't agree (I think it's a solid disadvantage for Shulk), Nicko recently won a 50-man tourney in SoCal and beat Aphro in Grands. Previously he heavily struggled to beat Aphro in the past (even using as a last ditch secondary for her, which obviously didn't work), so this is really nice. Said tournament is a good showcase of the matchup imo, I'd like to hear you guys' throughts.