Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[|RK|]

I trust you to be more informed on the matter than I am since I only pocket Kirby but the mentality I'm thinking with is that projectile =/= forces approaches. Tjolts and shurikens and the like can usually be shielded or one can jump in place, onto a platform or away although the latter two give up stage control. I do agree that they help, almost anything is better than Inhale but I'm slightly doubting the amount of use the projectiles provide. Likely from lack of experience with them and having not seen them in action. If anything, I can see a Kirby with a percent or moreso a stock lead with one of these projectile abilities being an utter pain. The lead forces the opponent to approach rather than chip away at you from afar for the lead but if after the 10% from Inhale, they still have the lead, they can still be patiently defensive and Kirby still has to approach. He gets a new tool to help with that but it generally seems more useful if you get the ability while in the lead. I should probably see about looking up some high level Kirby matches vs the likes of Tink, Greninja, Mewtwo, Lucario, Sheik, Diddy and Pika to see what I'm likely not noticing about the projectile abilities. Pretty sure the best Kirby players are MikeKirby and Triple R?

MikeKirby is much better than Triple R, tbh. Triple R mostly gets away with skill and years of experience, but MikeKirby knows how to play Kirby in Smash 4. Neither of them get to use copy abilities very much. Incidentally, what I'm saying about projectiles isn't Kirby-specific.

I've learned much of what I'm saying about projectiles from this video about Needles:

It's absolutely amazing, no matter what character you play tbh.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I've seen the needles video a few times, first time was when I was first learning about competitive smash but I haven't really gotten anything out of it until now. It also makes me ask, whats better? Ridiculous reaction times like 140ms or being able to think ahead and create entire flowcharts for everything that could possibly happen while executing them in real time?

 

[Krysco]

MikeKirby is much better than Triple R, tbh. Triple R mostly gets away with skill and years of experience, but MikeKirby knows how to play Kirby in Smash 4. Neither of them get to use copy abilities very much. Incidentally, what I'm saying about projectiles isn't Kirby-specific.

I've learned much of what I'm saying about projectiles from this video about Needles:

It's absolutely amazing, no matter what character you play tbh.

An interesting watch, never seen it before. Granted, the video was mostly about Sheik, even the bit that could be applied to all or most other projectiles. Sheik can easily Needle or Needle fidget and then run up with her fast dash speed and leave her opponent little time to choose an action. Compare that to say Robin who can't run behind the likes of Thunder, Elthunder, Thoron or Arcfire. Different projectiles serve different purposes obviously but the 'identification' thing works better if you can limit your opponent's options with a projectile and something else. It's a big reason why Falco is so bad and is said to have one of the worst projectiles in the game. Kirby can do that depending on the projectile.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I've seen the needles video a few times, first time was when I was first learning about competitive smash but I haven't really gotten anything out of it until now. It also makes me ask, whats better? Ridiculous reaction times like 140ms or being able to think ahead and create entire flowcharts for everything that could possibly happen while executing them in real time?

For my 3 characters? I might actually choose reaction time because it'd make one ledgetrap scenario equal a stock. For anyone else? Probably a flowchart.

 

[sups48]

Mewtwo Kirby is decent as a stand alone character, but it doesn't turn the tides on Mewtwo. Kirby's shadow ball is very weak compared to Mewtwo's and doesn't get the same uses out of uncharged shadow ball like Mewtwo because of how slow he is. Easily 60:40 in Mewtwo's favor.

Greninja Kirby is easily top tier though.

Mewtwo's down throw does tech chase on platformed stages like you described. It usually leads to devestating damage ^_^

The kirby mewtwo match-up is not 40-60. Kirby can rack up damage pretty fast and avoid down tilt with his multiple jumps better then a lot of characters and while they both can kill early Kirby can kill faster. I feel like mewtwo wins simply because he can kill Kirby so earlier then most characters with just a grab not earlier then he can die to a Kirby F-Smash or UP-Smash but pretty damn early.

 

[Deleted member]

I really dislike matchup numbers/ratios when people try to describe how a matchup is, it's all very subjective and in the end you're just asking yourself "what do these numbers even really mean"? Just get to the point and say whether it's a slight/solid/notable advantage or disadvantage, some matchups with certain characters are significantly stage dependent such as .

 

[|RK|]

I've seen the needles video a few times, first time was when I was first learning about competitive smash but I haven't really gotten anything out of it until now. It also makes me ask, whats better? Ridiculous reaction times like 140ms or being able to think ahead and create entire flowcharts for everything that could possibly happen while executing them in real time?

I think you can't really separate the two. Even the ledge trapping (as mentioned) is an example of a situation-based flowchart.

Plus, flowcharts help you to anticipate actions and respond more quickly as a result.

 

[Y2Kay]

The kirby mewtwo match-up is not 40-60. Kirby can rack up damage pretty fast and avoid down tilt with his multiple jumps better then a lot of characters and while they both can kill early Kirby can kill faster. I feel like mewtwo wins simply because he can kill Kirby so earlier then most characters with just a grab not earlier then he can die to a Kirby F-Smash or UP-Smash but pretty damn early.

Mewtwo controls space with down tilt, shadow ball, and Forward Air. Kirby is slow and lacks opposing disjoints to disrupt Mewtwo's brick wall. Kirby is simply too bad at approaching for it to be a close match up.

No way in hell Kirby kills faster than Mewtwo lmao. Mewtwo's a much better stock sealer. Easily one fo the best in the game at it.

 

[Deleted member]

In my region (Central Florida) a pretty stacked regional is occurring, I think it'd be of interest to @Das Koopa's rankings:

The FBC Presents: Come to Papa 2 (October 22-23, 169 entrants and counting)

Spoiler: Noteworthy Attendees

NOTABLE PLAYERS:

FOX MVG Mew2King
COG Wizzrobe
Fatality
Instinct Spark
GoTE 8BitMan
Poltergust
True Blue
7J saj
Myran
RiotLettuce
VexX | Oni Day
MVG dyr
Noble | Sol
Noble Ryo
ATR Xaltis (?)
TGL DJ Jack
Prince Ramen
BC Purple Guy
Seibrik

SOME OTHER PEEPS TO WATCH OUT FOR:
(most of these peeps are PR'd in CFL or other regions)

Ewok41
Strobics
Xmas
Son
DewDaDash
PPG Wormynugget
StreetShark
Zae26
Tumultus
G4C WonderBread
Depth
Mugi
Nero
FBC AkashicSword
CrazieCuban

if only i could drive, if only ;-;

 

[Ethan7]

I really dislike matchup numbers/ratios when people try to describe how a matchup is, it's all very subjective and in the end you're just asking yourself "what do these numbers even really mean"? Just get to the point and say whether it's a slight/solid/notable advantage or disadvantage, some matchups with certain characters are significantly stage dependent such as .

The numbers are supposed to be the percentage of time each character would win against the other between players of equal skill at top level play.

Let's say someone believes that Meta Knight beats Rosalina & Luma 80:20, and Dabuz's Rosa and MKLeo's Meta Knight are about equal in skill. According to the person who came up with 80:20, Leo's Meta Knight should win about 80% of the games he has with Dabuz's Rosa, though that may not actually be what they mean.

 

[blackghost]

invalidation of characters needs clarification. bayonetta for instance has been listed (sometimes without evidence) as being 50 50 or at worst 60 40 with a large majority of the cast. most mu I've seen outside falcon and Ganondorf don't have bayo crushing Thier character. which is interesting. yet in this thread she is seen to invalidate much of the cast
both can't be true.
a character in smash 4 is much more likely to invalidate a players skill or Thier playstyle. bayo for instance invalidates players that push too many buttons and have no ability to di. that's a more fair statement imo.
characters that invalidate casts in go fighting games are zero an Vergil in umvc 3 or fox and the top tiers in melee. we haven't reached a point where any character invalidates a majority of the cast. and we aren't even close.

 

[|RK|]

Mewtwo controls space with down tilt, shadow ball, and Forward Air. Kirby is slow and lacks opposing disjoints to disrupt Mewtwo's brick wall. Kirby is simply too bad at approaching for it to be a close match up.

No way in hell Kirby kills faster than Mewtwo lmao. Mewtwo's a much better stock sealer. Easily one fo the best in the game at it.

Not going to comment on the rest of this right now, because I'm not 100% certain. But uthrow kills Mewtwo extremely early. Their kill power is almost comparable in this MU, considering uthrow kills Mewtwo ~110 on any platform without any rage at all.

Your usmash doesn't hit us on the ground, but I'm sure fsmash or dsmash still do fine. And potentially fair? Can't remember if it hits us grounded. But we do seal your stocks really quickly, is my point.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

ignore this

 

[Ethan7]

Mario has one of the longest stepdashes, and given that his grounded burst range is one of the character's biggest flaws, this could be huge going forward.

Do you know of which characters have the best step-dash? Like a tier list or something.

 

[Krysco]

That's the only 'step dash tier list' I've seen though I do recall there being a thread dedicated to it.
Edit: The thread I was thinking of https://smashboards.com/threads/work-in-progress-step-dash-distance-rankings.440416/

 

[verbatim]

Not going to comment on the rest of this right now, because I'm not 100% certain. But uthrow kills Mewtwo extremely early. Their kill power is almost comparable in this MU, considering uthrow kills Mewtwo ~110 on any platform without any rage at all.

Your usmash doesn't hit us on the ground, but I'm sure fsmash or dsmash still do fine. And potentially fair? Can't remember if it hits us grounded. But we do seal your stocks really quickly, is my point.

M2's kill throw works at 110 without any platforms though...

This seems like one of Kirby's many matchups where it gets significantly more doable once you get their copy and can force approaches, but they're able to try and keep Kirby out (Greninja, Sheik).

 

[Mega-Spider]

Mewtwo isn't much lighter than Kirby, so of course Kirby's U-Throw is going to kill Mewtwo significantly earlier compared to other characters. Shadow Ball is really good for spacing, and could be used as a kill option, though it's a bit of a risky one since I find that Mewtwo players anticipate it and reflect it back. D-Tilt makes Kirby cry however, so if a Mewtwo knows how to space Kirby properly, Kirby shouldn't get in.

 

[Y2Kay]

Another weird thing about the Kirby MU: Kirby can crouch under fully charged shadow ball . . .sometimes.

Shadow ball does this weird dribble animation when thrown, so sometimes it'll miss him and sometimes it will hit him.

Better off power shielding it if you ask me.

 

[Phan7om]

Shadow Ball should be used sparingly during times when he can reflect, you should be looking for openings when he cant reflect or when reflecting is bad, which is something I know a lot of players still don't fully understand.

Shoutout to Y2Kay for making this dope post about it.

 

[|RK|]

I really don't like Shadow Ball as a kill option too much. Very much prefer uncharged because of the aforementioned dtilt.

Mewtwo isn't much lighter than Kirby, so of course Kirby's U-Throw is going to kill Mewtwo significantly earlier compared to other characters. Shadow Ball is really good for spacing, and could be used as a kill option, though it's a bit of a risky one since I find that Mewtwo players anticipate it and reflect it back. D-Tilt makes Kirby cry however, so if a Mewtwo knows how to space Kirby properly, Kirby shouldn't get in.

Speaking of - during my last lesson, I learned that dtilt can be shield grabbed (since his hurtbox is most of the dtilt), so they can't exactly get predictable with it either.

Re: Uthrow - yup. That was my point - Mewtwo kills us with upthrow at roughly 112 (if my memory serves) - we don't kill much later. So kill power for kill power in this specific MU, we don't come up short.

 

[verbatim]

when does kirby's up throw kill m2 if kirby lands at ground level?

 

[|RK|]

when does kirby's up throw kill m2 if kirby lands at ground level?

129% on average, no rage.

 

[Pancracio17]

is that with DI?

 

[|RK|]

is that with DI?

I think so?

https://i.imgur.com/3Fu9rXT.jpg

 

[Funbot28]

Meta Analysis: October 2016

So just wanted to leave my thoughts on the current situation with the contingency of the top tiers rn based on recent tournament results and my own personal opinions of course:

Top 3:



So I still definitely feel that all these three characters are still high contenders to be the best characters in the game due to their amazing matchup spreads, great tournament results and overall potential that they possess that distinct them above the rest. Anti-Cloud tech has started to appear quite prevalently however which could potentially knock him off the top of the top echelon, although I still feel he has enough results and tourny play to back up this placement rn at least.

Top 4-10:



So ik there is a lot of controversy between the placement especially between these spots because honestly all these characters are all so close to eachother in viability. Rosa and Fox are quite self-explanatory at this point with their amazing representation with Dabuz and Larry Lurr respectively. Sonic is also a character that has risen quite a lot in popularity after the 1.15 nerfs due to mostly the Shiek nerfs and players like Wrath have really been pushing the character really far. This is where a bit of bias kicks in but I feel Bayonetta could honestly be as high as 7th place mostly due to Salem showcasing that Bayo is honestly powerful after the 1.16 nerfs by his many excellent tourny placement results. The rest is also self explanatory as well, although I do want to highligh that I feel that Mewtwo and ZSS have been kinda lacking lately and that Mario could potentially rise a tad more.

So yeah what are ur guys feelings on the meta rn currently.

 

[Deleted member]

Meta Analysis: October 2016

So just wanted to leave my thoughts on the current situation with the contingency of the top tiers rn based on recent tournament results and my own personal opinions of course:

Top 3:



So I still definitely feel that all these three characters are still high contenders to be the best characters in the game due to their amazing matchup spreads, great tournament results and overall potential that they possess that distinct them above the rest. Anti-Cloud tech has started to appear quite prevalently however which could potentially knock him off the top of the top echelon, although I still feel he has enough results and tourny play to back up this placement rn at least.

Top 4-10:



So ik there is a lot of controversy between the placement especially between these spots because honestly all these characters are all so close to eachother in viability. Rosa and Fox are quite self-explanatory at this point with their amazing representation with Dabuz and Larry Lurr respectively. Sonic is also a character that has risen quite a lot in popularity after the 1.15 nerfs due to mostly the Shiek nerfs and players like Wrath have really been pushing the character really far. This is where a bit of bias kicks in but I feel Bayonetta could honestly be as high as 7th place mostly due to Salem showcasing that Bayo is honestly powerful after the 1.16 nerfs by his many excellent tourny placement results. The rest is also self explanatory as well, although I do want to highligh that I feel that Mewtwo and ZSS have been kinda lacking lately and that Mario could potentially rise a tad more.

So yeah what are ur guys feelings on the meta rn currently.

I disagree with Cloud being top 3, or even near the likes of Sheik and Diddy. He's a strong character and top 10 surely, but I'm skeptical about where you see him as in the meta, much less him being an a higher power level than your top 4-10.

I also am not understanding what you mean by Mewtwo lacking lately. Aba, Rich Brown and WaDi have all been getting impressive placements with the character major after major. And if you're gonna use an example of somebody pushing Sonic far it'd be Komorikiri, he's for sure the best Sonic out there. I know you had acknowledged that the characters you listed in top 4 are close in viability, but nothing really supports Rosalina being stronger than most of those below her either.

These characters probably are the top 10, but I disagreed with your reasoning on those specific things. People have brought up lately that has top 10 potential. While I can't necessarily say I agree, the meta is changing. And his buttons are strong enough to probably have him there in the future, I dunno.

 

[Ilikebugs]

Ignore this post

 

[Nu~]

FullMoon
Y2Kay
bc1910 @Illusion.

I have a question for all the Greninja mains out there.
https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ZNuzRDTwtSQ

How badly does this hurt Greninja's combo game? I'm aware that dair isn't his only combo tool, but how does he extend his combos beyond uair juggles, dtilt kill setups, and nair -> X follow up now?

I'm not sure if his frame data allows him to string more than 3 attacks together all that well without the aid of dair. Then again, I do remember Bc saying that Greninja is 50/50 the character.

But I could be ignorant

 

[Y2Kay]

FullMoon
Y2Kay
bc1910 @Illusion.

I have a question for all the Greninja mains out there.
https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ZNuzRDTwtSQ

How badly does this hurt Greninja's combo game? I'm aware that dair isn't his only combo tool, but how does he extend his combos beyond uair juggles, dtilt kill setups, and nair -> X follow up now?

I'm not sure if his frame data allows him to string more than 3 attacks together all that well without the aid of dair. Then again, I do remember Bc saying that Greninja is 50/50 the character.

But I could be ignorant

Not really a factor tbh.

Down Air is safe from this since he bounces off the targets head when Down Air connects.

Down Air is mainly used to jab lock, not ground spike.

 

[FullMoon]

FullMoon
Y2Kay
bc1910 @Illusion.

I have a question for all the Greninja mains out there.
https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ZNuzRDTwtSQ

How badly does this hurt Greninja's combo game? I'm aware that dair isn't his only combo tool, but how does he extend his combos beyond uair juggles, dtilt kill setups, and nair -> X follow up now?

I'm not sure if his frame data allows him to string more than 3 attacks together all that well without the aid of dair. Then again, I do remember Bc saying that Greninja is 50/50 the character.

But I could be ignorant

Greninja's footstool combos are unaffected by this so he still has really strong reward at early percentages.

Right off the top of my head the only thing this makes not work is his Meteor D-Air -> Footstool -> B-Air lock -> Charged F-Smash kill setup but that's not too big of an issue. Meteor D-Air -> Shadow Sneak is also a thing but it's rarely used.

And if the opponent does cancel the effect, since Greninja bounces off after hitting he's not getting punished badly for it.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Just for fun.
Here's a Dr. Mario match up list I made a month ago:

Spoiler: Match ups

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Just for fun.
Here's a Dr. Mario match up list I made a month ago:

Spoiler: Match ups

View attachment 119290

I honestly thought that he would be even with Falco
The matchup seems like a big boxing match, frame data, damage output, and mobility across the board. If anything Falco should win, he has slightly better numbers and the same basic gameplan.

Also, how is Charizard anywhere near even? His range is similar to the sword wielders and his mobility is up there with Cloud/Sheiks minus the air speed. Played properly hes going to neuter Doc in the neutral. Doc's recovery is also one of those free recoveries for Charizard to mess with, Flamethrower stops almost every attempt at making it back to the stage and is either going to be the death of him or cause ~40%. The matchup obviously doesn't have much data with two underplayed characters but Charizard should, in theory, win it solidly.

 

[bc1910]

FullMoon
Y2Kay
bc1910 @Illusion.

I have a question for all the Greninja mains out there.
https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ZNuzRDTwtSQ

How badly does this hurt Greninja's combo game? I'm aware that dair isn't his only combo tool, but how does he extend his combos beyond uair juggles, dtilt kill setups, and nair -> X follow up now?

I'm not sure if his frame data allows him to string more than 3 attacks together all that well without the aid of dair. Then again, I do remember Bc saying that Greninja is 50/50 the character.

But I could be ignorant

This only affects combos that start with raw Dair on a grounded opponent. Which is such a horrible option in 99% of cases against anyone who knows how to spotdodge, that this barely affects Greninja at all. It might affect the odd YOLO/footstool punish but that's about it.

Bear in mind that you can just tech Dair as a combo starter anyway. Greninja can't be punished on hit either way (or is at least more difficult to punish on hit after GSC than most characters because he bounces off rather than landing). So overall this makes very little difference.

Anything involving the Uair spike is also unaffected by this as the opponent will not be grounded.

 

[Jamurai]

I honestly thought that he would be even with Falco
The matchup seems like a big boxing match, frame data, damage output, and mobility across the board. If anything Falco should win, he has slightly better numbers and the same basic gameplan.

Also, how is Charizard anywhere near even? His range is similar to the sword wielders and his mobility is up there with Cloud/Sheiks minus the air speed. Played properly hes going to neuter Doc in the neutral. Doc's recovery is also one of those free recoveries for Charizard to mess with, Flamethrower stops almost every attempt at making it back to the stage and is either going to be the death of him or cause ~40%. The matchup obviously doesn't have much data with two underplayed characters but Charizard should, in theory, win it solidly.

Doc's better walling and grab combo game against Falco's weight class (including a generous Dthrow > Fair kill confirm window) edge him out in this matchup imo. Also I know Falco is scared of being offstage against a lot of characters, but edgeguarding him with Doc is almost laughably easy because Doc has multiple long-lasting, high-priority edgeguarding moves which eat Falco's side-B and up-B for breakfast.

I agree Zard wins for the reasons you mentioned. Although getting in on Doc is harder than it seems. If Zard gets the lead, Doc is in big trouble.

 

[chaos11011]

Just for fun.
Here's a Dr. Mario match up list I made a month ago:

Spoiler: Match ups

View attachment 119290

Explain Doc vs Duck Hunt please. Strategic Can placement in that match up, as in not using it as a projectile in favor of camping near it at all times, both takes away from Doc's reflector and forces Doc to BThrow and not DThrow due to the Can being able to stop throws

I see it as even from both perspectives

 

[DunnoBro]

Explain Doc vs Duck Hunt please. Strategic Can placement in that match up, as in not using it as a projectile in favor of camping near it at all times, both takes away from Doc's reflector and forces Doc to BThrow and not DThrow due to the Can being able to stop throws

I see it as even from both perspectives

Pills lock can from going in doc's direction, kills gunmen, and usually kills frisbee.

Edgeguarding and combos are also an issue. Cape isn't nearly as big a factor as pills.

Also the can doesn't consistently stop throw combos at all, since if the opponent approaches over it their throw will go opposite to the can's direction.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Just for fun.
Here's a Dr. Mario match up list I made a month ago:

Spoiler: Match ups

View attachment 119290

There are some things I find questionable that perhaps you might be able to explain a little further.
I can see all the advantageous match ups in Doc's favor and understand them. Those all look pretty good. But I have to question why some of the listed even match ups are even. Characters like Luigi, DK, C. Falcon, Fox, Pit, Charizard (which has already been discussed), and Greninja stand out to me. Then there are a few disadvantageous ones like Diddy Kong, Marth, Lucina, Sonic, Rosa, and Corrin that seem like they could be worse. Especially Sonic.

 

[FeelMeUp]

The vs matchup is getting more and more slanted towards the former as time goes on.
I'd like to see Mario players pick up as a pocket for a few matchups. Dual plumbers wouldn't be a bad idea at all. Sure, it doesn't help with some of the bad matchups like and , but it makes your good matchups MUCH better and gets rid of a few random even matchup issues.

 

[DunnoBro]

The vs matchup is getting more and more slanted towards the former as time goes on.
I'd like to see Mario players pick up as a pocket for a few matchups. Dual plumbers wouldn't be a bad idea at all. Sure, it doesn't help with some of the bad matchups like and , but it makes your good matchups MUCH better and gets rid of a few random even matchup issues.

There's way too much overlap with mario/luigi to be a good combo. It just makes even/easily doable matchups better.

Cloud, as usual is still the best choice as a secondary. Boasting better MUs vs Rosa, Sonic, and all mario's weird and hard high/mid tier mus like bowser and luigi himself.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I think Cloud secondaries are a pretty lazy "obvious" answer so I tend to avoid defaulting to it.
It's better to explore other options for people that don't want to do that. Which is why I never talk about Cloud secondaries and pockets at all.