Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[**Gilgamesh**]

Generally I don't say anything is worse than a 40:60. Most top players do this too, unless you are Vinnie. The game is pretty balanced and, with the exception of Sheik v Ganondorf, every character in every matchup can come up with one optimal game plan to try to execute. There's very few places where something is a 65:35 or worse. Sheik and a few other top tiers might have one or two with the bottom tiers. That's just about it

Yeah... lemme help you out on that.
- She still beats nearly the entire cast (hello needles) with her hardest being other top tiers and honestly without some characters have them grab kill confirms or 50/50's (Mewtwo, Ness, Bowser, DK, Robin, Palutena, R.O.B) her MU spread would be even more God-like, thank you lord samurai for giving some characters good kill confirms or buffs (not salty at all).

- She still craps on superheavies and poses a significant threat to other characters across the roster (Robin, Pits, Samus, Lucario, R.O.B, Wario).

- Most characters simply are at a straight disadvantage to cloud in various degrees due to his limit mechanic, absurd mobility, neutral game and disjoints, examples include but is not limited to (Wario, Luigi, Villager, Lucario, Kirby, bottom tiers, low tiers, mid tiers , Ness?? etc...) Notice how cloud struggles the most against other top tiers.

- Strong match-up vs floaties. Really only included him due to how dumb some MU's are vs him .

- LMAO , sonics says hello to Mr.G&W, Mario, DK, Bowser, Kirby, and various other characters .

- Beats many characters in various degrees with ganondorf being notoriously bad . A combination of factors including fantastic specials in witch twist, witch time, after burner kick, fantastic disadvantage state and a explosive advantage state makes bayonetta a true terror to face.

- .................... (Kirby, Robin, Ryu, Ness, DK, Bowser, Ganondorf, Charizard, , R.o.B.??, Bowser Jr. Luigi, Falco, Mr. G&W, Dr.Mario, Wii Fit, and more....................). Literally a walking fortress that somehow is able to camp out most of the cast thanks in part to gravitational pull.

- Diddy Kong seems to be balanced vs the lower tiers although some people seem to complain about him ( I could be wrong and probably is wrong).

- Still on the opinion that Mewtwo is busted, pretty much if you don't win the neutral vs him (strong keep away game with shadow ball, d-tilt, fair) and you don't get more reward then him, he beats you in various degrees (hence nearly the entire roster outside of top tiers). This is what happens when you give a character steroids. Like his only bad MU is like Bayo and maybe Diddy...
- Overwhelms characters with his sheer speed , frame data, power, and juggling. Fox is just very solid but just adds on to the hurdles a high-mid-low tier has to face.

- Mario is probably the most balanced top tier since he has quite some "suspect MU" for now. He still poses a threat to some characters such as (Samus, Robin, Pikachu, Mega Man, Wario) with some of these ranging from not that bad to bad.

The problem with mid-low and even some high tiers isn't that the top tiers invalidate them all (although nearly if not all them do have some *free Match-Ups* across the roster), It's just that a lot of them are not favored to win the MU or break even with them and some get BTFU by some of them mind you ex. Wario, Kirby, Luigi (while they have some good top tier MU's (except maybe Wario) Kirby and Luigi both faces problems with Rosa, Cloud, and others that they simply fall in the long run).

Losing to the majority or all of Top Tier in different degrees puts you at a disadvantage even if you only slightly lose to them since you most likely facing a ton of them in tournaments. What's interesting is that the top tiers themselves () mostly if not all can compete with one another without having to much trouble. Yes, this game is much more balanced then melee and brawl (thank god for patches), but considering the fact that both of those games had God-like top tiers that just completely shut out the rest of the cast and more, that common notion doesn't exactly stand out. This game definitely has MU's that are more then a mere 60:40.

Tl;Dr blame DLC for the oppressive options they add on for the roster (M2, Cloud, Bayo, Corrin)

 

[Vyrnx]

When anyone says a character invalidates half or most of the cast, I'm skeptical.

It usually comes with vague explanations in the form of, "x move is an insta win," or something along those lines without accounting for the strengths that the other character has or the actual match up specifics.

Saying that a top tier like Sheik or Diddy beats most of the cast is a true statement, but saying Rosalina and Cloud invalidate most of the cast, it isn't that simple and I find it too hard to believe. Again, they beat most of the cast, but they don't singlehandedly invalidate them.

Edit: This wasn't directed at any one person. The claim that Rosalina invalidates half the cast has been around since 2014 and pops up in this thread occasionally, and similar claims about other characters (commonly Cloud) also pop up occasionally. I'm just addressing it as a whole.

 

[Deleted member]

Whenever people say "just do X lel" and are actually serious, I roll my eyes. A single option never invalidates a character, Smash isn't that simple.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

When anyone says a character invalidates half or most of the cast, I'm skeptical.

It usually comes with vague explanations in the form of, "x move is an insta win," or something along those lines without accounting for the strengths that the other character has or the actual match up specifics.

Saying that a top tier like Sheik or Diddy beats most of the cast is a true statement, but saying Rosalina and Cloud invalidate most of the cast, it isn't that simple and I find it too hard to believe. Again, they beat most of the cast, but they don't singlehandedly invalidate them.

I don't know if this comment was directed at me , but If it was let me clarify, I never said nor think that Cloud and Rosa invalidate half the cast. I stated that Cloud and Rosa and top tiers in general holds the advantage in various degrees. I do think Mewtwo, Cloud and Rosa are "suspect " IMO and maybe Bayo too since only time I see these characters getting eliminated is by other top tiers or characters that have a good MU vs them such as Mega Man (Rosa, Cloud), Meta Lnight (Rosa). No you're right they don't have a notable advantage against all of high, mid, low tier but they do have the majority of them being favorable and they do have some even MU across the board as well. Rosalina, I must admit she kinda oppressive as hell though like there's a reason why some people despise the character and states that she's oppressive.. like how often do you see a solid Rosa lose to a random mid-low tier, Dabuz included.

Also, trying to post on a phone is like very bad and not fun at all (dam auto-correct) so you will see me editing.... often.

Edit: The combination of the Top Tiers in general is what lead to invalidation of characters more so now then before where you had pre-patch Sheik, Cloud, Bayo, ZSS, Sonic, Diddy, and Rosa that was roaming Mt. Olympus where any single one of them could single handedly eat up portions of characters.

Top Tiers have to eat too you know even though Samurai has made them go on a diet.

 

[Illuminose]

I feel confident that Cloud beats Mario, even there aren't a lot of examples showing it right now. Cloud wins neutral by a lot, possessing both the range and safe spacing tools to beat virtually any Mario option or approach. Mario cannot win neutral against Cloud without guessing because he does not have the tools to counter and fight Cloud'a options head-on whatsoever. Cloud's forward air and back air specifically are incredibly efficient at walling out Mario because he can't really do anything about them unless Cloud misspaces. The reason, I think, that the overall record of say M2K vs Ally doesn't necessarily reflect this (apart from skill differences) is that playing with Cloud in Limit makes this so much better. With Limit, Cloud's mobility enables him to wall out and work around Mario on an entirely different level. This even extends to killing situations. Mario has to get really close to land his kill setups and generally has to make telegraphed dash-ins to do so, unless he gets a landing trap. It's not just hard for Mario to get in close, it's also reactable and punishable with death.

The main thing that makes this matchup even doable is Mario's reward. Cloud is combo food and one of the most susceptible characters to dumb Mario edgeguards. Cloud probably has comparable reward (he can even edgeguards Mario himself); the thing is that Cloud's reward is just damage generally, whereas Mario can actually bs Cloud out of stocks. Mario does have enough mobility and safety that he can throw out a certain amount of guesses and probably eventually get at least one. Or Cloud doesn't fall for it and dominates Mario the entire time, but there's enough adaptation within a match that something will happen to put Cloud at risk. Although these things shouldn't happen all the time, if a very good Mario finds the right opportunity and converts then Cloud could die.

On a consistent basis, I think Cloud beats Mario way too hard for this matchup to be even. Accounting for all the bs Mario can pull and cheat Cloud, it might be only a -1 although I think it will develop into a -2 over time.

fwiw i think Mario loses to Sonic -2 and Cloud/Corrin/Mewtwo/Peach/Luigi -1

 

[BSP]

Whenever people say "just do X lel" and are actually serious, I roll my eyes. A single option never invalidates a character, Smash isn't that simple.

You haven't seen Pac vs Mac then.

 

[DunnoBro]

Cloud, Bayo, and m2 do invalidate large chunks of the cast.

Rosa invalidates neutrals, which is dumb but she has a pretty volatile disadvantage state unlike the others so breaking through her zone is wildly more rewarding.

DLC are safer, kill sooner, and also have far more functional kits than any flagship chars. Even sheik and diddy have issues with certain moves. (consistency or actual uses)

 

[Luco]

God-damnit top Sonic Mains putting Lucas as easier for themselves than Ness.

Dangit Tai do the thing where you play *THE MOST* defensive. S1 is our lord and saviour though, maybe I should re-invest time into learning that MU.

Also @Chainz. has seen the real me, I have no-where to hide. Halp. ;_;

And I don't know if we're yet like to call the M2/Diddy MU 'arguably' bad, not with Aba's record against the top Diddy mains and not with literally every other notable M2 out there saying it's bad. Maybe a slight exaggeration but what is M2 meant to do about Diddy Fair? That move seems very very good against M2, and Diddy seems to take advantage of M2's poor OoS like it's nobody's business.

Maybe it's not a terrible MU but I dunno if I'm ready to call that MU 'arguable' just yet. :/

That does bring me to one more point, but people in this thread are very polar when they talk about MUs. Either a MU is evenish or it is "oppressively" bad and bars a character from solo viability. There's such a thing as a losing MU, plain and simple, without it meaning that much else. Probably equivalent to brawl's -2 MUs, and in comparison to what I see people whine about today, -2's are traditionally quite doable. Just an observation.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't ike have a solid record over sonic right now and a recent win over ken himself? Does ken have an explanation?

A bit off topic but Ike is under rated af. Not just by Japan either. Having having good matchups against characters like M2, Rosa, Mario, Sonic, Cloud, and Marth while also having great matchups against mid/low tiers in general is great as it is, but for a character ranked as low as he is? Ike needs an actual evaluation, not just some half assed "but he doesn't have any results so he's irrelevant" thing.

 

[Nobie]

Cloud, Bayo, and m2 do invalidate large chunks of the cast.

Rosa invalidates neutrals, which is dumb but she has a pretty volatile disadvantage state unlike the others so breaking through her zone is wildly more rewarding.

DLC are safer, kill sooner, and also have far more functional kits than any flagship chars. Even sheik and diddy have issues with certain moves. (consistency or actual uses)

I considered the possibility that Mewtwo might be a character that overwhelms a huge portion of the cast, but then I literally went to a character roster page, stared at each one for a few seconds to see if I thought, "Ah! Very easy matchup!" either from a personal standpoint or from watching lots of Mewtwo matches. Not a single character was a positive.

The closest possibilities might be characters who are at the bottom of the cast in terms of mobility like Ganondorf, Kirby, Luigi, Dedede, and Robin, but those characters get so much reward off of just hitting Mewtwo that none of them ever seem worse than a +1 or +2 (depending on if you think +1 means 55:45 or 60:40).

An extreme character such as Little Mac often results in skewed matchups, but against Mewtwo Little Mac's strong grounded frame data and neutral keeps that from tilting all the way in Mewtwo's favor as well.

I think Mewtwo has a small edge against Lucas, but that's merely because Mewtwo has slightly more reward in advantage, and neutral is pretty fair on both sides.

Various odd matchups are fairly even that one might not even expect, such as Olimar (according to Olimar players) or Game & Watch.

That might seem like a conflicting argument given that I just listed like a bunch of characters offhand that "lose" to Mewtwo, but advantages that small aren't really invalidation.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't ike have a solid record over sonic right now and a recent win over ken himself? Does ken have an explanation?

A bit off topic but Ike is under rated af. Not just by Japan either. Having having good matchups against characters like M2, Rosa, Mario, Sonic, Cloud, and Marth while also having great matchups against mid/low tiers in general is great as it is, but for a character ranked as low as he is? Ike needs an actual evaluation, not just some half ***** "but he doesn't have any results so he's irrelevant" thing.

I honestly prefer to fight Cloud more than Ike as Mewtwo.

 

[NairWizard]

Glad someone mentioned Ike.

Ike is secretly the best secondary for Mario, because he does well vs. Corrin, Sonic, Rosalina, Peach, Yoshi, Mewtwo, Luigi, and even Cloud.

Plus Ike's playstyle of mixups and conditioning shields to set up grabs is congruent with Mario's general gameplan.

(btw you could also play Corrin, but I think Ike has a better Sonic matchup, which is the most important one)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People have outdated opinions on Fox's matchup spread, too. He doesn't wreck Charizard or Bowser or Greninja lol. Sometimes I think people are posting on the basis of memes floating around from months ago. The game's developed, the meta's evolved. Fox doesn't obliterate half the cast any more; many of his matchups are even now.

Absolutely, all of this.

I've posted a matchup chart for Fox some time ago where most characters are floating somewhere between 'slight disadvantage', 'even' and 'slight advantage'. There's like 5 characters that get truly wrecked by Fox and Charizard or Bowser are not among them.

 

[Megamang]

Ike is a character with surprisingly good mobility and a pretty damn good array of confirms across his moveset. His confirms are great because none are redundant; youve got safe aerial coverage, a good grounded poke, and a grab confirm. Most chars would kill for that.

His disadvantage hurts though, pretty bad. Recovery, landing... recovery. Hit him semi awkwardly and halfway-convert and he is dead. It sucks when your solid gameplan can get ZSS'd by half the cast.

---

And how is fox getting more manageable? It seems like every week his combos get stronger, starting from more stuff... and his uair does 16%. His AC windows are ridiculous. His aerials are strong enough to not worry about shield as much as TL, and his throws are becoming pretty threatening. Then again, listing these out, none of this is news, just stuff my local foxes are picking up. But what is changing in the meta to let mid tiers do alright vs fox? My local and stream watching experience set him at pretty damn terrifying for non top tiers.


Re: m2 V Diddy fair. Shield works well enough, and when you shield you try for a powershield which at best gets you a dtilt fair into a string then advantage offstage, or at worst gets you 4% hitbox of dtilt and still a decent positional advantage.

Being tall enough for double bair of any timing, that part sucks though. And a diddy that abuses his amazing (and deceptive, wtf are those animations?!) Movement to just not get hit, trip/grab you for confirms, and run away with the lead slowly is an nightmare. Also diddies here like dropping banana into teleport 2 frame into dair, so that's a ***** to deal with, since getting off the ledge is annoying either way... they drop is riiight on the ledge, so its a mixup of having to respond to zdrop spike/trump/banana-actually-lands-on-ledge traps, all scary in their own right. Some parts of me feel camping is the answer, yet SB isnt that hard to powershield and wait out.

 

[Luco]

Re: m2 V Diddy fair. Shield works well enough, and when you shield you try for a powershield which at best gets you a dtilt fair into a string then advantage offstage, or at worst gets you 4% hitbox of dtilt and still a decent positional advantage.

Being tall enough for double bair of any timing, that part sucks though. And a diddy that abuses his amazing (and deceptive, wtf are those animations?!) Movement to just not get hit, trip/grab you for confirms, and run away with the lead slowly is an nightmare. Also diddies here like dropping banana into teleport 2 frame into dair, so that's a ***** to deal with, since getting off the ledge is annoying either way... they drop is riiight on the ledge, so its a mixup of having to respond to zdrop spike/trump/banana-actually-lands-on-ledge traps, all scary in their own right. Some parts of me feel camping is the answer, yet SB isnt that hard to powershield and wait out.

Thanks for this, I was wanting a formal response from someone who knows this MU. So effectively yeah, sounds hard but I'm sure you'll find ways to deal with it. Keep in mind 'PS'ing Fair is a bit over-simplifying it, for something as burst as that move I think you really have to be anticipating it quite heavily but it sounds like you at least have options if you do so successfully.

Ledge-traps are frustrating, although that seems to be a common theme. On the bright side, it's appearing that mooooost characters either have potent edge-guarding tools or potent ledge-traps, reflecting either powerful grab games (most commonly, but other strings are present with some characters) or powerful off-stage tools which take advantage of the 2-frame or other off-stage weaknesses. Reward off ledge-trapping may be different and that may decide stuff but I think the more players learn to develop this skill the more success they will see overall vs everyone, and this in turn applies to most everyone.

 

[FeelMeUp]

The only thing I'm seeing is people getting better at edgeguarding Fox, but that was almost never an issue in the first place. Not understanding why you're saying the Fox MU for so many characters "isn't that bad" when Fox players are finding more fair>footstool setups every day, more guaranteed combo setups, more ways to keep you on the ledge forever, more ways to mix up his disadvantage, and less ways to get punished in neutral. It looks like the Foxes are optimizing their game faster than almost every other character.

For example, one combo VoiD was making with the chat's help on his stream was:
FH AC Dair>Footstool>FF Nair x3>FH AC Dair>Bair>Pivot Ftilt>Fair>Footstool>Death at 0-10% on most of the cast.
I don't think any character has multiple combos and strings like this that can touch you at the wrong part of the stage at low % then instantly kill you.

When I say Fox is a busted character I mean that there's nothing "fair" and "honest" about getting Uair'd 3-4 times then being halfway to death %. Or "happening" to be above a Fox under a platform at 50 and dying because of it. Or getting hit by ftilt/dair/uair/jab/bair near the edge around 30-50% then instantly getting fair footstooled and killed because of it. Or missing a tech at 80 and getting double pivot ftilted into Usmash. He's not broken by any means, but the things this character can do after hitting you regardless of who you're using rivals , the queen of stupid ****.

The character has so many questionable interactions in his moves that I'm honestly baffled when people pretend his advantage isn't at least top 2-3 in the game at this point. Possibly even the best.
~ Gheb ~ I would love to see what it is about this character that you're missing in order to constantly act like he doesn't crap on most of the cast in this game. You seem to be the most active person disagreeing with it but giving no evidence whatsoever.
When I say this, I'm not saying Fox has a million +3 matchups. I'm saying when Fox wins a matchup, he usually doesn't just +1 on the other character. It's almost always something stupid like 6:4 or worse.
2 days no sleep low coherency whoo.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

If Bayonetta is the queen of stupid than Fox must be a damn God

Bayonettas combos are strong but sdi cuts them short when used properly. Fox on the other hand gets 90% because you just so happened to be on a platform at the wrong time or the Fox knows how to start footstool combos out of utilt, dair, tipper dtilt, up air, or a simple jump read

Off topic again but I'd like to see characters with strong stilts use pp dtilt more. It spaces it perfectly for tippers with sheik and the slide makes pretty safe. Godly dtilts like mewtwo and diddy just become even more dumb, being able to use them up close and still be safe is dumb

 

[Megamang]

My m2 is all about PP dtilts, running away RAR fair.

One issue is you sometimes sacrifice reward when using it. Even defensive players in this game use 'approaching' options heavily, its hard to win when you arent hitting your confirms to the fullest in this meta.

That said, someone with an *amazing* ppdtilt is Corrin. Dodge a SH attempt, chop the feet... confirm to big combo.


Speaking of, it seems Corrin would have a good MU vs fox... combo food fox probably takes huge damage vs her vertical confirms. And one of his weaknesses i see mentioned most is to disjoints, which corrin has. Lightness means fair fair uair might kill...

Does fox really win that MU because lasers and corrins weakness to juggles? Her dair is actually decent for mixups (watch some CosmicCosmos, dair confirms for tons of damage) since you can fall or momentum stall with it. Counter would be super scary for fox but his uair has built in counter safety with its 5+11 damage hit.... plus falling uair probably dodges counters it triggers due to its disjoint, ha, haha! *cries*.


Luco I dont want you to think that I know that MU super well, im more speaking from the fearful spectator of m2's traits... but yea, when I say PS I just mean if you know when youre getting faired you at least have an attempt at punishment since you can confirm OoPS options auditorily. It certainly doesn't make fair not amazing but you at least have a way to break down the wall.

---

How is ZSS in this meta? I often see her as a step below the top tiers in the ~Mario Fox range, which i dont fully understand. Is it the lack of rising aerial? I find rising bair or fair (both retreating) to be decent at calling out a2a punishes while being totally safe. Sheild you can wait out with safe spacing, since you arent in any danger from most characters' OoS burst options while zair pokes them to slow death. Speaking of, zair is a solid poke that can be untechable, putting you in amazing advantage for a run up grab or shield. Ftilt is also a decent poke, mediocre reward but honestly it gives her a ground option that forces the opponent to acknowledge she can attack while grounded. She also shield pokes very well; if they start shielding zair tons you can switch to bair and tear down their shield safely.

Her thing has always been a grab vortex too; her confirms arent as stupid now but Nairo and Marss show you still can die from a touch, many of which are absurdly safe (dsmash is another solid answer she has to shield). If anyone starts stuffing you for landing aerials, you can usually re-apply the stuff to their face with bair.

Oh, and without going into too much detail here, her ledge game is absolutely amazing. Dsmash is death, her tether gives her amazing frame advantage to pressure, and flip kick gives her insane vertical movement and pressure, giving her stuff like "i tried to kill you with bair, then flip kicked up to punish your buffered ledge option (buffered from fear of tether after bair) with dsmash or grab >dthrow > bair > repeat, or just flip kick into the abyss"

And the icing on the cake is the amazing power of boost kick. Anyone with decent reaction speed can make it do incredible work in any MU. Its just a top tier OoS option.

...

Yet the only thing I see about ZSS is twitter posts saying she can't be top tier because the poster made a terrible decision (always boost kick holding back vs Ike if youre at bair death percentage, or just dont boost kick towards the far blastzone while holding forward then fall with ike on smashville)

Is it due to the hiatus of our top ZSS posters?

 

[blackghost]

are there di or sdi escapes on Fox combos? because most of the cast (outside of some ryu) there is a way out of Thier combos. dying at 10 from a guaranteed fox combo will get old for many people especially those with those that had/have a problem with bayo and/or ryu.

 

[Nah]

Megamang as I understand it Corrin loses to Fox because he can play keepaway all game and punish most button presses with his absurd burst. That and lasers.

Basically I'm of the opinion that you want to play against Corrin how you're supposed to play against Ryu: run the **** away

 

[Aaron1997]

Ok so I just watched the NX (Switch) Trailer and I think a Smash 4 Port is all but Confirmed at this point. Its already Confirmed that Mario Kart 8 and Splatoon will be ported. Also I want you to take a look at something. At 1:47 of the trailer, 2 guys are playing Mario Kart 8. In that clip 1 of them is playing King Boo (A character you can't play currently). Also on the same clip, its shown that they can hold 2 Item at once (Can't do that either). This means Mario kart is getting a update. This means Smash 4 Port = Patch.

 

[Zelder]

Ok so I just watched the NX (Switch) Trailer and I think a Smash 4 Port is all but Confirmed at this point. Its already Confirmed that Mario Kart 8 and Splatoon will be ported. Also I want you to take a look at something. At 1:47 of the trailer, 2 guys are playing Mario Kart 8. In that clip 1 of them is playing King Boo (A character you can't play currently). Also on the same clip, its shown that they can hold 2 Item at once (Can't do that either). This means Mario kart is getting a update. This means Smash 4 Port = Patch.

Lol if you jump any harder to these conclusions you're gonna break your ankles

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Ok so I just watched the NX (Switch) Trailer and I think a Smash 4 Port is all but Confirmed at this point. Its already Confirmed that Mario Kart 8 and Splatoon will be ported. Also I want you to take a look at something. At 1:47 of the trailer, 2 guys are playing Mario Kart 8. In that clip 1 of them is playing King Boo (A character you can't play currently). Also on the same clip, its shown that they can hold 2 Item at once (Can't do that either). This means Mario kart is getting a update. This means Smash 4 Port = Patch.

That...doesn't necessarily mean Smash is getting a port nor does a port necessarily mean a patch or anything. At the most if Smash 4 did get a port I doubt anything major would change as far as balance, a edition with all the DLC bundled sure but I doubt Sakurai is putting anymore work into Smash 4

 

[Laken64]

Most Corrin mains agree that Fox is MU is 45:55 (but very close to 40:60)Fox's favor. Fox has the speed to constantly punish Corrin's greatest tool IP so he can't abuse it as hard as he does in other MUs. You are right about Corrin getting massive damage when comboing wether it be from dtilt or fair strings and basically having more raw kill power in uair, IP kick or tipper as well as bair, upthrow, and set ups like fair fair to DFS and 17% bite which has more knockback then when fully charged. And obviously Corrin can easily kill Fox offstage when the opportunity presents itself with fsmash,IP or offstage DL tipper and fsmash charge can catch Fox side b on stage. It's one of Corrin's worst MUs pretty much on par with and (45:55 or 50:50 depending who you ask) but it's still doable nonetheless.

 

[Megamang]

So what are Fox's worst MUs and why? It seems like burst mobility tied to an absurd punish game, camping, and incredible advantage state means death for everyone. Id guess Shiek because offstage combos and because she is Shiek. And then you have Rosa.

Does fox still struggle with Rosa? If Corrin is too slow, how is Rosa not? Or is the advantage state just good enough to not worry about this?


Also, Rosa V Shiek... mr R switched off of shiek for Dabuz. Is this Dabuz being a god at the MU, or is it actually hard for shiek?

Does Rosa still beat Diddy? That one seems even, Monkey Flip and Fair and dtilt at the ledge are just too good options.

Just curious where Rosa stands. She never comes flying out with new groundbreaking tech or confirms, but Luma is still Luma... yea.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Please no i really dont want another patch at this point or new Dlc. Let smash 4 live for a few years as it is.

 

[DunnoBro]

The game could still do with some smart tweaks, features, and of course balance. But I do fear more DLC taking attention away from existing characters.

 

[Das Koopa]

Lol if you jump any harder to these conclusions you're gonna break your ankles

I think it's fairly reasonable to conclude that there'll be a port since popular Wii U games are being ported. Since new content was featured, it's also not much of a stretch to conclude some (minimal) additional content to provide incentive for people to purchase it. That's just basic business.

I won't speculate on anything, but it's not some bizarre pipe dream based on jumping to unreasonable conclusions. That's all I have to say

 

[san.]

Ike in disadvantage is really bad vs. 2 specific things:

1. Fast, disjointed uairs Like ZSS'. Ike has no immediate option to this other than a pretty strong read/very good reactive dodge. If Ike does dodge it, he can punish it fairly hard with bair.
   
2. Powerful strings and frame traps. Ike takes a long time to get out of air dodge, and thus air dodge landing lag.

If Ike can get some breathing room, he actually has some landing options. Empty land into a strong grounded option vs. landing with an aerial is a standard 50/50 option and you need to powershield in order to punish. Use of Ike's sideB is underutilized by his users right now. It has a wide autocancel range and somewhat low lag +slide if it doesn't autocancel, leading to various timings on each stage.

I know that even I don't B-reverse my sideBs for landing or sideB to the ledge from onstage, tools that can be pretty powerful once mastered.

Ike has little national presence outside a few players and his strengths are known (relatively rewarding setups from spaced attacks and grabs). His future lies in seeing how well he can overcome his weaknesses for better consistency. I am a bit confused how he's bottom 5 in results though, they still seem to be around the same as other midtiers overall with placements here and there.

 

[Ulevo]

Just a general question. Why do I never see Cloud mains do ledge trump to LCS? It kills Meta Knight at around 55 with no rage. Probably middle weights at 65.

 

[Yikarur]

because you cannot punish a ledge trump on reaction and if you miss you die against a lot of characters.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

The game could still do with some smart tweaks, features, and of course balance. But I do fear more DLC taking attention away from existing characters.

On the subject of balance, this project is now in open beta thanks to a lot of help from all the character boards, character Discords, and a lot of individuals (yourself included). But it's only a beta, and there's still more to be done.

One thing in particular I was hoping to broach in this thread is what people think some of the absolute worst matchup ratios in the game are, and what might be done to help close those gaps.

For my money, Ganon vs. DK, Pikachu and Rosalina. Duck Hunt vs. Cloud. Ness/Lucas vs. Rosa/Villager.

 

[Mr. Johan]

So what are Fox's worst MUs and why? It seems like burst mobility tied to an absurd punish game, camping, and incredible advantage state means death for everyone. Id guess Shiek because offstage combos and because she is Shiek. And then you have Rosa.

Luigi is of special note. In order for Fox to get really get meaningful damage started, he has to be able to break through Luigi's normals, and do it fast enough so that he's not stopped by Nair. Meanwhile, Luigi can crawl under Lasers and Dash Grab punish SH Bair, and then the magic happens from the grab.

Combine Fox's physics aiding Luigi combos even further, and Cyclone flushing Fox's recovery options, and you have a matchup that demands perfect spacing from the Fox in a game where human error breaks you hard.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I'm of the opinion that Fox's worst MUs are two 6:4s vs Bayo and Sheik.
They can ignore his juggles, mostly bypass his ledgetrapping, abuse him offstage, and abuse him in the combo game. The things both of these characters do to Fox in advantage are plain unholy. Rosa's up there with his bad MUs as well but lately I'm feeling like it's not 6:4 anymore. Even though Fox is horrible at removing Luma he juggles Rosa like no other and has the best kit in the game at safely pressuring a recovering Rosa. Reverse fair footstool, tipper dtilt, utilt, and dsmash all lead to death or huge damage.
But imo if Fox didn't have bair for poking at her+Luma in neutral this matchup would be a solid 6:4. Poor guy can't land against her and would have no reliable safe aerial or grounded approaches if not for bair.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

On the subject of balance, this project is now in open beta thanks to a lot of help from all the character boards, character Discords, and a lot of individuals (yourself included). But it's only a beta, and there's still more to be done.

One thing in particular I was hoping to broach in this thread is what people think some of the absolute worst matchup ratios in the game are, and what might be done to help close those gaps.

For my money, Ganon vs. DK, Pikachu and Rosalina. Duck Hunt vs. Cloud. Ness/Lucas vs. Rosa/Villager.

If your saying Ness-Villy is a really bad MU it really isn't. Ness can stop a lot of Villager's Slingshot and Lloid spam with his Fsmash and force Villager to play closer to Ness. Ness is able to out preform Villager up close and he surprisingly is combo'd well by Ness. A big boon for Ness in this MU is also the fact that while most characters can't really harass villager off stage Ness can PK Thunder him and seriously harass Villager and pop balloons with it limiting Villagers ability to get back to stage. If your able to keep close to Villager and not let him zone you out it becomes a much better time. If Villy couldn't Pocket Ness' recovery attempts I'd say it can't be worse than -1.

The only way your fixing Ness-Rosa is by preventing Gravitational Pull nonsense and removing Luma which isn't something you really can do. I don't think that's even his worst MU honestly, Rosa's Down B really overrates how bad it is for Ness. Don't get me wrong it's bad for him for sure for many other factors than just GP but I think Shiek is slightly worse at least in my limited experiences.

 

[TurboLink]

The game could still do with some smart tweaks, features, and of course balance.

I agree obviously.

But I do fear more DLC taking attention away from existing characters.

What does this even mean?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

On the subject of balance, this project is now in open beta thanks to a lot of help from all the character boards, character Discords, and a lot of individuals (yourself included). But it's only a beta, and there's still more to be done.

Noticed Ryu and Mewtwo were missing. Those coming later?

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Noticed Ryu and Mewtwo were missing. Those coming later?

Only in the event that they have some issues I'm not aware of, which is a very real possibility. Pikachu, Ryu, Mewtwo, Metaknight and Villager have all been left untouched, since they were pretty much the target level of viability I was shooting for.

But part of this project is quality of life fixes and improvements to useless/overbearing moves in general, so they might see some changes in the future.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we got another DLC
Considering Nintendo is on half decent terms with Konami again, we could see snake (big boss?) in Smash 4. He would probably be broken af but hey, we'd have our first DLC projectile based character

 

[DunnoBro]

What does this even mean?

Fine tuning and tweaking a not-yet-released character is manpower that could be used to just tweak an existing character(s) to be balanced. That's all.

 

[Luco]

On the subject of balance, this project is now in open beta thanks to a lot of help from all the character boards, character Discords, and a lot of individuals (yourself included). But it's only a beta, and there's still more to be done.

One thing in particular I was hoping to broach in this thread is what people think some of the absolute worst matchup ratios in the game are, and what might be done to help close those gaps.

For my money, Ganon vs. DK, Pikachu and Rosalina. Duck Hunt vs. Cloud. Ness/Lucas vs. Rosa/Villager.

If your saying Ness-Villy is a really bad MU it really isn't. Ness can stop a lot of Villager's Slingshot and Lloid spam with his Fsmash and force Villager to play closer to Ness. Ness is able to out preform Villager up close and he surprisingly is combo'd well by Ness. A big boon for Ness in this MU is also the fact that while most characters can't really harass villager off stage Ness can PK Thunder him and seriously harass Villager and pop balloons with it limiting Villagers ability to get back to stage. If your able to keep close to Villager and not let him zone you out it becomes a much better time. If Villy couldn't Pocket Ness' recovery attempts I'd say it can't be worse than -1.

The only way your fixing Ness-Rosa is by preventing Gravitational Pull nonsense and removing Luma which isn't something you really can do. I don't think that's even his worst MU honestly, Rosa's Down B really overrates how bad it is for Ness. Don't get me wrong it's bad for him for sure for many other factors than just GP but I think Shiek is slightly worse at least in my limited experiences.

This. Also, it's not fair to lump Lucas in with Ness when it comes to his worst MUs, Lucas is looking at a very even MU with Rosa and Villager doesn't roadblock him in any meaningful way either (not that I think Villy roadblocks Ness). Lucas' worst MUs are like, Greninja and Diddy tbh. Gren probably isn't on Diddy's level though.