Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Scarlet Jile]

This. Also, it's not fair to lump Lucas in with Ness when it comes to his worst MUs, Lucas is looking at a very even MU with Rosa and Villager doesn't roadblock him in any meaningful way either (not that I think Villy roadblocks Ness). Lucas' worst MUs are like, Greninja and Diddy tbh. Gren probably isn't on Diddy's level though.

Greninja is interesting. How big of a difference would it make if water shuriken became an elemental attack?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Only in the event that they have some issues I'm not aware of, which is a very real possibility. Pikachu, Ryu, Mewtwo, Metaknight and Villager have all been left untouched, since they were pretty much the target level of viability I was shooting for.

But part of this project is quality of life fixes and improvements to useless/overbearing moves in general, so they might see some changes in the future.

Huh. Well for minor suggestions in that range of characters: probably removing Villager's silly infinite shovel thingy (mainly for doubles play). Slightly shaving off some frames on Ryu's neutral B so like, he an maybe encourage approaching him at least in some MUs. Fixing up Mewtwo's teleport if at all possible. Got nothing for the other two really.

 

[my_T]

If your saying Ness-Villy is a really bad MU it really isn't. Ness can stop a lot of Villager's Slingshot and Lloid spam with his Fsmash and force Villager to play closer to Ness. Ness is able to out preform Villager up close and he surprisingly is combo'd well by Ness. A big boon for Ness in this MU is also the fact that while most characters can't really harass villager off stage Ness can PK Thunder him and seriously harass Villager and pop balloons with it limiting Villagers ability to get back to stage. If your able to keep close to Villager and not let him zone you out it becomes a much better time. If Villy couldn't Pocket Ness' recovery attempts I'd say it can't be worse than -1.

The only way your fixing Ness-Rosa is by preventing Gravitational Pull nonsense and removing Luma which isn't something you really can do. I don't think that's even his worst MU honestly, Rosa's Down B really overrates how bad it is for Ness. Don't get me wrong it's bad for him for sure for many other factors than just GP but I think Shiek is slightly worse at least in my limited experiences.

Yea i'm pretty confident that Sheik is Ness worst match-up. The match-ups yall mentioned are pretty rough though, or at least very difficult to play.

Also, Ness loses to Fox. He doesn't lose hard though.

Why? Fox wins neutral in this match-up pretty convincingly, especially on platform stages. Both characters have a strong advantage state against the other. Fox has the stronger advantage state on platform stages. Fox will have more opportunities to abuse his absurd advantage state because he will win neutral more often then Ness

 

[L9999]

Yea i'm pretty confident that Sheik is Ness worst match-up. The match-ups yall mentioned are pretty rough though, or at least very difficult to play.

Also, Ness loses to Fox. He doesn't lose hard though.

Why? Fox wins neutral in this match-up pretty convincingly, especially on platform stages. Both characters have a strong advantage state against the other. Fox has the stronger advantage state on platform stages. Fox will have more opportunities to abuse his absurd advantage state because he will win neutral more often then Ness

It is worth pointing out that Ness players have defeated Fox players convincingly. FOW has beaten Larry and NAKAT, NAKAT defeated Shogun(correct me if I'm wrong) 2-0. Also, Ness has good options against Fox to keep his ground against Fox despite the juggles, like Nair/Uair. Killager MU is easy unless you play stupid aggro and stay at the edge. Sheik is bleach though, I'd rather play against Rosa who has exploitable weakenesses like being a huge target and D-Smashing her recovery.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Shiek is slightly worse at least in my limited experiences.

Sheik vs Ness is so bad. He struggles in neutral, he gets edge guarded very hard, ledge trapped for years, and his physics make it possible to kill him from a throw if you need to. Needles really hurt Ness everywhere. Crazy back throw kills are not something he can rely on because if you have a percent lead against Ness there is never ever going to be a reason for Sheik to approach. If you're getting back thrown, that's your own damn fault because it is plenty easy enough to avoid.

If you for whatever reason have to fight Sheik with a PK child, you should never choose Ness. Lucas isn't an amazing choice either but it's much better than using Ness to try and fight Sheik.

Add in: Ness loses to a lot of characters. He's straight up just not amazing. Like, too many bad match ups to be as high on the tier list as he is. Sheik's atrocious, Rosa sucks, Mario sucks, I can't imagine Pikachu being any good, Villager isn't fun, Marth and Lucina suck, Corrin really sucks, loses to Falcon, don't see how Greninja could be anything good, I doubt the Pit match up is very good as well, and I don't see Peach or Ike being particularly great match ups either.

In fact, while I'm at it, here are some other characters who I also think or either overrated, not very good, or both.
Ryu, Pikachu, Donkey Kong, Wario, Yoshi, Mewtwo (I feel the need to explain this one a bit more. I think Mewtwo is very good, but especially within this thread he is occasionally called broken or just called top 5. Is he overtuned? Yeah, definitely, but is he broken? Not really seeing as a good deal of characters, while not necessarily being even or winning, can at least somewhat deal with him.)

 

[ARGHETH]

I can't imagine Pikachu being any good,

Ness is actually one of two characters ESAM admits beats Pikachu, so take that as you will.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I don't see a reason to place M2 anywhere outside of top 5 tbh, his kit just works together perfectly and his matchup spread is among the best
Who can actually replace him as a top 5 character? We have Sheik, Fox, Diddy, Sonic, Bayonetta, and Mewtwo all fighting for a place in top 5. Who's the worst out of those 6?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

On the subject of balance, this project is now in open beta thanks to a lot of help from all the character boards, character Discords, and a lot of individuals (yourself included). But it's only a beta, and there's still more to be done.

One thing in particular I was hoping to broach in this thread is what people think some of the absolute worst matchup ratios in the game are, and what might be done to help close those gaps.

For my money, Ganon vs. DK, Pikachu and Rosalina. Duck Hunt vs. Cloud. Ness/Lucas vs. Rosa/Villager.

That project's changes to doc Mario really really disappointed the stew out of me. Might as well make his Fair meteor smash, make his Up-B go further and multi-hit, and remove "doc" from his name.

All those changes and all he needed was pill FAF to go from 53 --> 45 or lower, with slight improvements to his recovery.

Ughhh.

There are other changes that I don't really favor, but this is noteworthy for me.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

That project's changes to doc Mario really really disappointed the stew out of me. Might as well make his Fair meteor smash, make his Up-B go further and multi-hit, and remove "doc" from his name.

All those changes and all he needed was pill FAF to go from 53 --> 45 or lower, with slight improvements to his recovery.

Ughhh.

There are other changes that I don't really favor, but this is noteworthy for me.

Make a case in the Doc Discord, since they hashed out the buffs between them. Or just play vanilla Dr. Mario, since you seem to like him as is.

Either way, find a different place to vent, because I don't want to derail this thread.

 

[my_T]

It is worth pointing out that Ness players have defeated Fox players convincingly. FOW has beaten Larry and NAKAT, NAKAT defeated Shogun(correct me if I'm wrong) 2-0. Also, Ness has good options against Fox to keep his ground against Fox despite the juggles, like Nair/Uair. Killager MU is easy unless you play stupid aggro and stay at the edge. Sheik is bleach though, I'd rather play against Rosa who has exploitable weakenesses like being a huge target and D-Smashing her recovery.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but Ness players have not defeated Fox players convincingly. The only time this was the case was NAKAT vs Shogun where i feel Shogun could have played the match-up much better. I have yet to see this kind of dominance from Ness against American Fox players.

I haven't seen any set between FOW and NAKAT. And the only time i know of FOW beating Larry was when Larry went DK/Sheik/Fox over the course of three games and FOW won. Larry beat FOW the next time they played getting all of his wins with Fox. Shaky beat NAKAT in a really close set but their's a difference in skill level there. Megafox has gone back and forth with Shaky as well.

I forgot about fair>footstool also. It's like a bootleg Gravitational Pull or Pocket.

 

[Illuminose]

so at the Midwest weekly SFW #61, Salem was there because he's going to be at Rebirth this weekend. So was Ally, who Salem has not played before in this game (afaik).

WF 3-1 Ally. GF 3-1 3-0 Salem.

So, Salem (only counting post-patch) now sits with positive records on ZeRo (2-1), Ally (2-1), Abadango (2-0), and Kameme (2-0). He also has an even record with Nairo (1-1). That's five top 10 players. Salem has not played Mr. R, Larry, ANTi, Komo, or MK Leo. The only player in the top 10ish Salem has played and has yet to beat is Dabuz and VoiD (who Salem has not played since June). Salem also boasts wins over a number of players including Mew2King, Tweek, Mr. E, and 6WX. He's pretty solid in the top 15 at this point I think and contends for top 10; Salem is reaching the point where a big major placing and wins over maybe two more of this top 10ish caliber could put him in top 5 based off less than half a year.

 

[Fenny]

Salem made the Bayo-Mario MU look dreadful for Mario.

As long as she kept him out with her superior range he couldn't get out the grab combos he wanted, and by staying put on platforms he made every move Mario made on her to get her down a commitment that could probably end with him getting killed. Worse thing is, Mario simply doesn't have the limb length to attack her on platforms from below with any relative safety, so he was kinda unable to do much of anything until Bayo decides to come down.

She can completely control the pace of the match and unfortunately for Ally the only place she can't to some extent is Final Destination - Salem's download ability is OP.

 

[bc1910]

LOL you remembered it too? I remember when I first suggested Fox might be even post - BEAST VI he shot that down real quick.

But I will say Greninja's match up chart is kind of a mess. I'm not really sure who we lose to anymore or how badly.

I'm decently confident that we at least lose too

are constantly cycling between slightly losing to even for me.

I think Greninja loses to Sheik and Sonic badly, and to Diddy slightly. I am fairly sure Fox is even, Rosalina feels worse than Fox at this point.

Cloud is probably even overall, Hydro Pump is likely the single best move in the game at consistently gimping recoveries that don't auto-snap. A few of Bayo's tricks might be slightly better, maybe Mario's Cape too? We get wrecked a little on-stage though.

I am fairly convinced we beat Mewtwo slightly. I think Greninja is one of Mewtwo's worst MUs. WaDi seems to feel the same.

Greninja's MU spread is a bit undefined, but it seems solid. He just doesn't really counter any of the top tiers (Ryu and ZSS-off-BF/DL are the closest he comes, IMO, bearing in mind Ryu is more of a top/high tier) and he either goes even or loses to the cream of the crop. He's settling into a role that's pretty typical of a middling-good high tier, probably around 15th in the game (he's currently 14th on Koopa's rankings).

Add in: Ness loses to a lot of characters. He's straight up just not amazing. Like, too many bad match ups to be as high on the tier list as he is. Sheik's atrocious, Rosa sucks, Mario sucks, I can't imagine Pikachu being any good, Villager isn't fun, Marth and Lucina suck, Corrin really sucks, loses to Falcon, don't see how Greninja could be anything good, I doubt the Pit match up is very good as well, and I don't see Peach or Ike being particularly great match ups either.

In practice Greninja may lose to Ness slightly. S1-14 has a positive record against iStudying and has done for some time, AFAIK.

I agree it should be a fairly good MU for Greninja in theory but in practice Ness' shield is simply very hard to overcome, and mistakes will lead to early Bthrow kills.

 

[Vyrnx]

Add in: Ness loses to a lot of characters. He's straight up just not amazing. Like, too many bad match ups to be as high on the tier list as he is. Sheik's atrocious, Rosa sucks, Mario sucks, I can't imagine Pikachu being any good, Villager isn't fun, Marth and Lucina suck, Corrin really sucks, loses to Falcon, don't see how Greninja could be anything good, I doubt the Pit match up is very good as well, and I don't see Peach or Ike being particularly great match ups either.

In fact, while I'm at it, here are some other characters who I also think or either overrated, not very good, or both.
Ryu, Pikachu, Donkey Kong, Wario, Yoshi, Mewtwo (I feel the need to explain this one a bit more. I think Mewtwo is very good, but especially within this thread he is occasionally called broken or just called top 5. Is he overtuned? Yeah, definitely, but is he broken? Not really seeing as a good deal of characters, while not necessarily being even or winning, can at least somewhat deal with him.)

Look, the first half of your post on the Sheik Ness MU was fine, but this part is just low quality.

I could name any character who I want to be overrated and then just list a bunch of characters they "lose" to whether they actually lose at all and just say the match up is "awful" or "sucks". You even say, "I imagine it is..." "I doubt that this match up..." "I can't see that this MU... ". How much authority do you have with Ness?

You list of all the characters that you think are overrated with no explanation or reasoning, and you say that you're going to explain Mewtwo, but you didn't actually explain at all.

It discourages discussion on characters like Ness from people who know about them.

 

[NairWizard]

I find it to be generally the case that most people shift toward the same opinions (on most things) over time, but some sections of the community get there more slowly than others. I think @Dabuz is the first player to really get a sense for where the metagame is, and it trickles down from there. He was saying that Marth was top 10 months ago, or that Mario could be #1 weeks ago. I find myself almost always coming to agree with his position on things, but with a few weeks or months of delay. I think this is because meta shifts that we don't see on stream--such as in friendlies or via top player communication channels--percolate down at a slow rate. Sometimes, the understandings or opinions of these shifts turn out to be wrong; nevertheless, it is the pattern of competitive impression-making that they do eventually trickle down if they have well-thought-out and cogent supportive reasoning.

For most opinions that @Shaya has, I eventually come to agree, but I am usually 2 or 3 weeks behind his assessment. I think this is generally because he's close in communication with some of the top players (he's also something of a devil's advocate though, so sometimes you'll see him back controversial opinions). I watch a lot of footage and try to analyze the game on a theory level; I spend more time doing that than actually playing at this point because I travel a lot and am not always near a Wii U, but even so I find myself lagging a bit behind Shaya. So I tend to just wait to shout out my opinions by a few weeks to make up for this delay.

I'm going to go against what I just said and call this one early, however, because after watching Ally vs. Salem I'm fairly confident, and also because it seems that some others also noticed (like Abadango):

A camping Bayonetta, piloted by a patient player, may just be the most unstoppable force in the game.

 

[Deleted member]

Look, the first half of your post on the Sheik Ness MU was fine, but this part is just low quality.

I could name any character who I want to be overrated and then just list a bunch of characters they "lose" to whether they actually lose at all and just say the match up is "awful" or "sucks". You even say, "I imagine it is..." "I doubt that this match up..." "I can't see that this MU... ". How much authority do you have with Ness?

You list of all the characters that you think are overrated, with no explanation or reasoning, and you say that you're going to explain Mewtwo, but you didn't actually explain at all.

It discourages discussion on characters like Ness from people who know about them.

This is basically why I don't try to talk about characters I lack any extensive knowledge on, practically why I only really talk about Shulk in detail. Thankfully others here haven't tried to do the same. If I were to say something like "Roy is bottom 5" in this thread I know I'd get torn a new one by those who main Roy because they know a lot more about the character than I do and his capabilities (even then I look upon the character lowly, but that's another story).

 

[Frihetsanka]

Who can actually replace him as a top 5 character? We have Sheik, Fox, Diddy, Sonic, Bayonetta, and Mewtwo all fighting for a place in top 5. Who's the worst out of those 6?

You forgot Rosalina & Luma, Cloud, and Mario, characters who many people (perhaps incorrectly?) consider top 5. It would be somewhat amusing if Nairo were to win some large tournaments and make Zero Suit Samus another contester for top 5. My point is: The current top 10 characters are incredibly strong and it's really hard to say who the #5 character should be.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I find it to be generally the case that most people shift toward the same opinions (on most things) over time, but some sections of the community get there more slowly than others. I think @Dabuz is the first player to really get a sense for where the metagame is, and it trickles down from there. He was saying that Marth was top 10 months ago, or that Mario could be #1 weeks ago. I find myself almost always coming to agree with his position on things, but with a few weeks or months of delay. I think this is because meta shifts that we don't see on stream--such as in friendlies or via top player communication channels--percolate down at a slow rate. Sometimes, the understandings or opinions of these shifts turn out to be wrong; nevertheless, it is the pattern of competitive impression-making that they do eventually trickle down if they have well-thought-out and cogent supportive reasoning.

For most opinions that @Shaya has, I eventually come to agree, but I am usually 2 or 3 weeks behind his assessment. I think this is generally because he's close in communication with some of the top players (he's also something of a devil's advocate though, so sometimes you'll see him back controversial opinions). I watch a lot of footage and try to analyze the game on a theory level; I spend more time doing that than actually playing at this point because I travel a lot and am not always near a Wii U, but even so I find myself lagging a bit behind Shaya. So I tend to just wait to shout out my opinions by a few weeks to make up for this delay.

I'm going to go against what I just said and call this one early, however, because after watching Ally vs. Salem I'm fairly confident, and also because it seems that some others also noticed (like Abadango):

A camping Bayonetta, piloted by a patient player, may just be the most unstoppable force in the game.

Probably because she has the equivalent of a shoto DP except no character in this game can punish it properly. Gyack ack ack!

It's probably not untrue to be entirely honest, nobody has any way to substantially punish Witch Twist among other things. You would think burst movement would cover it butttt the disadvantaged state and all that....rather, the substantive lack thereof.

Couple that with bar none the best reversal in the game (Witch Time, by far) and the other stuff, it's like, whoa. If she doesn't just press buttons you realize she's the safest char on whiff with the kind of reward she has relative to this safety.

 

[BSP]

On the subject of balance, this project is now in open beta thanks to a lot of help from all the character boards, character Discords, and a lot of individuals (yourself included). But it's only a beta, and there's still more to be done.

One thing in particular I was hoping to broach in this thread is what people think some of the absolute worst matchup ratios in the game are, and what might be done to help close those gaps.

For my money, Ganon vs. DK, Pikachu and Rosalina. Duck Hunt vs. Cloud. Ness/Lucas vs. Rosa/Villager.

Pac vs Mac is down there too, but I don't think you're "fixing" that one without breaking Mac or making Pac complete garbage.

The 5 frames off of trampoline's endlag suggested in the patch would probably make the MU unwinnable, possibly for Luigi too. This isn't the place for this discussion though, but reverting trampoline's mechanics back to the original would've been peachy. It seems like people forget it was actually pretty good at one point.

Edit: Mario's Usmash isn't safe either. Risk : Reward is in Mario favor yes, but we need to stop pretending that the move can't be punished.

 

[adom4]

On the subject of balance, this project is now in open beta thanks to a lot of help from all the character boards, character Discords, and a lot of individuals (yourself included). But it's only a beta, and there's still more to be done.

One thing in particular I was hoping to broach in this thread is what people think some of the absolute worst matchup ratios in the game are, and what might be done to help close those gaps.

For my money, Ganon vs. DK, Pikachu and Rosalina. Duck Hunt vs. Cloud. Ness/Lucas vs. Rosa/Villager.

Ganon vs DK is bad but i wouldn't put it as one of the worst, DK is still rather abusable, Ganon vs Sheik/Bayo fits better.

 

[Nu~]

On the subject of balance, this project is now in open beta thanks to a lot of help from all the character boards, character Discords, and a lot of individuals (yourself included). But it's only a beta, and there's still more to be done.

One thing in particular I was hoping to broach in this thread is what people think some of the absolute worst matchup ratios in the game are, and what might be done to help close those gaps.

For my money, Ganon vs. DK, Pikachu and Rosalina. Duck Hunt vs. Cloud. Ness/Lucas vs. Rosa/Villager.

Those Pacman/Lucas buffs and Pit/Dark Pit changes are making me salivate

What's the goal of this project again though? To eventually create a finished patch that the community would adopt? Or a project that doesn't really stop and we just keep experimenting with new patches (like PM) until eventually we get it "right"

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja is interesting. How big of a difference would it make if water shuriken became an elemental attack?

That would make Greninja be forced to approach Lucas and so I'd assume that would allow him to play the zoning game against Gren properly.

However you're kinda screwing Greninja over against Ness in the process because camping Ness with shurikens is one of the things that makes the MU more even. Making Greninja be forced to approach Ness is probably going to make that MU pretty bad.

So uh, don't do that.

 

[Y2Kay]

Water Shurikens shouldn't be an energy projectile. Water is matter, not energy! Also, it's a physical attack in the games too!

(I've heard rumors it's been changed to special for Sun and Moon, but that's beside the point )

I'll make you a deal though. Let Greninja hold his charge on Shurikens and make it shield cancelable and Id be fine with it being an energy projectile.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I'll make you a deal though. Let Greninja hold his charge on Shurikens and make it shield cancelable and Id be fine with it being an energy projectile.

Please please please do not do this.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

You forgot Rosalina & Luma, Cloud, and Mario, characters who many people (perhaps incorrectly?) consider top 5. It would be somewhat amusing if Nairo were to win some large tournaments and make Zero Suit Samus another contester for top 5. My point is: The current top 10 characters are incredibly strong and it's really hard to say who the #5 character should be.

Cloud is quickly proving not to be a top 5 character and considering Mario loses to every character that I named except maybe sheik, I doubt he has a chance to be there either. I forgot about Rosalina honestly

 

[Yikarur]

Cloud is quickly proving not to be a top 5 character and considering Mario loses to every character that I named except maybe sheik, I doubt he has a chance to be there either. I forgot about Rosalina honestly

Tbh it's the opposite atm. People have talked Cloud down a lot but he is more and more present in the top placings of big tournaments while he is still fairly dominating regional level and his MU spread is still absurd.
I think Cloud will just get better with time (from the everyone-saying-not-top5 point)
Not worse.
And I think Cloud is Ness worst match-up. I saw Purple~H demolishing S1 at Syndicate (off-stream sadly) because he was just playing the MU optimally. (Limit camping, never approach)
I think Ness will be mid Tier at a later time span of the game because he has massive flaws (no approach options at all)

 

[Y2Kay]

Please please please do not do this.

I'm glad you guys weren't suckers enough to fall for that one LOL

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

And I think Cloud is Ness worst match-up. I saw Purple~H demolishing S1 at Syndicate (off-stream sadly) because he was just playing the MU optimally. (Limit camping, never approach)
I think Ness will be mid Tier at a later time span of the game because he has massive flaws (no approach options at all)

The only reason I'm hesitant to call Cloud, Ness' worse MU is Ness can actually maneuver near Cloud applying some pressure (Getting through the giant sword is another thing) but with Shiek she can pop needles and Ness literally cannot do anything about it, Shiek controls the pace of the game at all times. Ontop of that once you get Cloud off stage Ness can ledge guard very well with Down Smash or PK Fire if Cloud doesn't sweet spot the ledge and Ness can throw out his Fair offstage and swat Cloud away. While Shiek gets back for free and doesn't really care about PK Thunder gimps like Cloud has to watch out for.

Cloud is pretty irritating still. Shiek, Cloud, Rosa, Corrin and to a lesser extent Marthcina road block him. He's got pretty bad MUs and plenty of losing ones but I still can't see him dropping out of High his damage output, kill power and air game are just too good. He beats most characters tiered below him right now or goes even at the least. I think him being the gate keeper to high or the best Mid is honestly where he will wind up.

I miss FOW lol it was nice when everyone was putting Ness in top ten

 

[BSP]

Salem made the Bayo-Mario MU look dreadful for Mario.

As long as she kept him out with her superior range he couldn't get out the grab combos he wanted, and by staying put on platforms he made every move Mario made on her to get her down a commitment that could probably end with him getting killed. Worse thing is, Mario simply doesn't have the limb length to attack her on platforms from below with any relative safety, so he was kinda unable to do much of anything until Bayo decides to come down.

She can completely control the pace of the match and unfortunately for Ally the only place she can't to some extent is Final Destination - Salem's download ability is OP.

I watched the set (https://www.twitch.tv/gooshigaming/v/96156483 @ around 3:44:20 or so) and it didn't look that bad to me. Ally got cheesed a few stocks, and he seemed antsy to go in even when he had leads. I wonder if things would've turned out differently if he would've waited for salem to come to him when he had the lead.

There were at least 3 incidents where Ally could've KO'd salem with FLUDD if he'd been just a second faster in shooting him for retreating to the SV platform with Bayo's specials. He's got the right idea with how he's using it, but he's got to shoot ~.5 seconds earlier than he is right now because FLUDD is too slow for reactionary use ( IE you have to guess burst movement away -> start shooting before they even start moving).

As for the grab combos, it wasn't too uncommon for Ally to do ~50% if he got a grab at low %, although I think Bayonetta players will realize they should just take the Uthrow -> Dair -> Fair (~30%) instead of getting regrabbed into a Utilt chain.

So yeah, I wouldn't call it dreadful. Bayonetta is still stupid of course, but I didn't see a case of Ally being unable to do anything.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Ally's SDI on most of the combos seemed almost non-existent to me. It's hard for most people to tell, but when trying to gauge SDI I always compare ESAM getting combo'd compared to whatever other player.
Ally always went up or the normal "no SDI" direction.

 

[Floor]

I'm a little late to the off-topic discussion of the Nintendo Switch possible Smash 4 port, but thought I'd give my two cents anyway. There's not much I'd like from balancing and it's certainly too early for Smash 5, but adding a bit of well deserved DLC would be nice. Like Icies and Wolf, for one. No real reason they shouldn't be in the game by now, really, and more games and content has been released that some newer characters could be deserving too.

But that's all off topic.
Back on topic:

Cloud. Bad matchup for pretty much eveyone, but everyone usually has at least 1 thing they can do against Cloud. Cloud is amazing at the neutral, but Sheik on the other hand doesn't let you even attempt to be good at the neutral. I think Sheik is usually a harder matchup for most characters than Cloud is. Just my opinion

 

[my_T]

The only reason I'm hesitant to call Cloud, Ness' worse MU is Ness can actually maneuver near Cloud applying some pressure (Getting through the giant sword is another thing) but with Shiek she can pop needles and Ness literally cannot do anything about it, Shiek controls the pace of the game at all times. Ontop of that once you get Cloud off stage Ness can ledge guard very well with Down Smash or PK Fire if Cloud doesn't sweet spot the ledge and Ness can throw out his Fair offstage and swat Cloud away. While Shiek gets back for free and doesn't really care about PK Thunder gimps like Cloud has to watch out for.

Cloud is pretty irritating still. Shiek, Cloud, Rosa, Corrin and to a lesser extent Marthcina road block him. He's got pretty bad MUs and plenty of losing ones but I still can't see him dropping out of High his damage output, kill power and air game are just too good. He beats most characters tiered below him right now or goes even at the least. I think him being the gate keeper to high or the best Mid is honestly where he will wind up.

I miss FOW lol it was nice when everyone was putting Ness in top ten

Lol people still think he's high tier? Such child-like wonder

Ness having high damage output and good kill options means nothing if he can't win neutral; which more and more people are starting to realize is one of his major weaknesses

Out of curiosity, who do you think Ness beats/goes even with in the low and mid tier areas? You don't have to go into detail. Two separate lists of names will suffice. If you're uncertain of a character you can just leave them out or make a separate list for that as well.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Those Pacman/Lucas buffs and Pit/Dark Pit changes are making me salivate

What's the goal of this project again though? To eventually create a finished patch that the community would adopt? Or a project that doesn't really stop and we just keep experimenting with new patches (like PM) until eventually we get it "right"

Well, I don't presume anything with the patch. The immediate goal is to create something I can be happy with and enjoy playing locally. If the community likes it and wants to play it too, I welcome it. I don't see it going on forever, since perfection isn't really on the table. What I really want is for every character to feel like they have a decent fighting chance, no matter the matchup.

 

[Luco]

Ness is like Pika's worst MU according to ESAM / apparently other Pika mains [exist] geez.

Gren with energy projectiles would be a bit of a shame, it's already such a fun MU as it is (for Ness) not having to approach would kinda suck the fun out of it a little bit (that's a weird thing to watch myself type). In case anyone doesn't know Gren Ness is considered to be hella even and pretty much all available evidence / results point towards this (I actually believe S1 is up on iStudying but tbh the theory balances it out well enough - either character getting sent into disadvantage is a freaking nightmare).

 

[Yikarur]

Of course you would consider Ness a terrible MU if your game plan is rushdown aggressive.

 

[FeelMeUp]

ESAM's matchups should be largely ignored.
Not because it's "haha ESAM opinions" but he's the worst top player when it comes to not being able to differentiate personal matchups with character matchups.

 

[DunnoBro]

Mario has a hard time getting out of Bayo Combos since he's average in all the 'combo food' values when you take out the threat of nair. Makes sense since the combos were probably designed to work on him first lol...

Considering Ally is known for having phenomenal DI/SDI and practices with captainzack to my understanding, I wouldn't be so quick to rule out a lot of that was just true because Bayo combos are WAY more true than people seem to believe for whatever reason.

ESAM's matchups should be largely ignored.
Not because it's "haha ESAM opinions" but he's the worst top player when it comes to not being able to differentiate personal matchups with character matchups.

Other pika mains agree preeeetty widely that it's either ness, or mario. Game and watch is also surprisingly hard. Not totally sure why pika struggles with grapplers, but there is a trend.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I don't disagree that Pika gets washed by those three. It's more talking about his evens, positives, and only having 3 actual bad matchups.

 

[JayZee1700]

It makes sense why G&W is tough. His kill power is very potent in the pika matchup especially since he can bucket thunderjolts and thunders. His high-damaging combos are dangerous for such a light character like pikachu.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Ness vs Fox has somewhat proven to not be in Fox' favor over time. Unless we get a new influx of results for that matchup it seems weird to assume that Fox wins it now.

So what are Fox's worst MUs and why? It seems like burst mobility tied to an absurd punish game, camping, and incredible advantage state means death for everyone. Id guess Shiek because offstage combos and because she is Shiek. And then you have Rosa.

Does fox still struggle with Rosa? If Corrin is too slow, how is Rosa not? Or is the advantage state just good enough to not worry about this?

Sheik is almost universally seen as a losing matchup for Fox, the extent is somewhat debated right now. It's the only matchup that I know of to be a 100% undisputed disadvantage for Fox.

Everything else is up to debate, Bayonetta, Ryu, Cloud, Luigi and Rosalina being either even or a slight disadvantage for Fox depending on whom you ask.

I'm not seeing the parallel between Rosalina and Corrin. Being slow isn't an inherent disadvantage against Fox unless you're one like Robin's level of mobility [in which case it'd be a general issue and not matchup specific]. Fox generally won't gain a whole lot from running away and will usually only do so in matchups where he has no other options - tends to happen against Ryu frequently and sometimes against Luigi.

Corrin doesn't lose to Fox because she's "too slow" but because she just isn't really that good a character in general. Her neutral game is lacking and for all the range she has, covering approaches isn't one of her strongest selling points - she's still easier to approach than Marth and less risky than Roy. Unimpressive frame data hurts Corrin more than range helps her vs Fox.

Tbh it's the opposite atm. People have talked Cloud down a lot but he is more and more present in the top placings of big tournaments [...]

Yes, as a secondary.

Why are people so eager to sweep this fact under the rug all the time? Solo Cloud isn't doing **** at big tournaments. That's not "downtalking" him, that's a fact.