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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Mega-Spider

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I said this in a previous post, and you can look at any of Phan7om's videos on YouTube (he's an amazingly technical player btw, one of my favourites), but Kirby has a lot of unexplored tech. Starting with his copy ability, he has reliable kill confirms with DK, Samus, Pac-Man, Shulk, Sonic, ZSS, Robin and Ike. footstool locks with Megaman, Pac-Man and Shulk. Shield breaks with Robin, DK, Magaman and Samus. And jab-locks with Rosa, Wario, DHD, Megaman, Pac-Man and Shulk. (These are just off the top of my head, there are probably a few I'm missing.) Plus there is all the true copy ability combos on MySmashCorner's video, and character specific tech like pluck gliding with Olimar's or MALLC with Shulk. People tend to overlook his copy ability, but it's still a major factor in the matchup. Then there is the general stuff like footstool locks with u-tilt and falling u-air, or footstool to stone or d-air. And PP U-tilt being an amazing tool to catch people off guard while being a combo starter. Other tech may include his increased tomahawk game with HUP cancelling and HUP shield drop cancel, his edge cancelled rapid jab, his bounteous jab locks with n-air and b-air to be the hard to tech move and d-tilt being his standard locking tool, and his sweetspottable recovery. And now for his combos, I believe he has almost enough combos to rival Shiek or Bayonetta, that may be a bit of a call out, but he does have amazing true combos on all characters. It's hard to name them all, but they usually start with f-throw, u-tilt, d-tilt trip, d-air, b-throw, reverse falling u-air, and n-air. These are also mixed with u-tilt<u-air strings, regrabs, repeated f-throw or u-tilt<d-air, the first 1 or 2 hits of f-air, and b-air locks. Hope this is enough tech for you ;) (This can also be a reply to Megamang since this is tech that needs to be recognized)
Yeah, the Copy Ability is a vastly unexplored option that Kirby mains need to start exploring. It's not as simple as "copy Mario's fireball and keep him out." That's the bare basics of this, as you need to do more than keep Mario out. You can't just throw fireballs all willy nilly, or they'll constantly be shielded. Use fireballs to regain neutral and occasionally get some picking damage. There's a lot more to be said about the other Copy Abilities; I just wanted to use Mario as an example.
 

Ethan7

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I think you misunderstood him; Rosalina is in his top 10 list. I also happen to agree that those 10 are the top 10 characters. Characters like Mega Man, Lucario, and Meta Knight are strong characters as well, but I don't think they really deserve to be considered top 10 (for the time being, at least).
My point is both MK and Marth have more tournament wins than Rosalina & Luma.
 

FeelMeUp

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Oh great are we rehashing tech from months ago?

People are so far behind.
To be frank.......who cares?
If no one has talked about it and the general public doesn't use it does it actually matter when it's found?
The whole "This is old because I have known about it" mentality is so toxic.
 

Mario766

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To be frank.......who cares?
If no one has talked about it and the general public doesn't use it does it actually matter when it's found?
The whole "This is old because I have known about it" mentality is so toxic.
The reason no one cared about it was because it has little to no use. Yes, you MIGHT get something out of it. Ike gets a throw into up smash conversion at kill percents, do you see us giving a ****? No.

The only reason people are looking at it AGAIN is because someone is now seeing that Marth can do things with it.

We can also talk about how the video says things like "Doesn't work with throws" even though that hasn't been true for ****ing months already and people don't do their research.

The only MU this would impact is Bayonetta, and it isn't like this is going to stop Bayonetta from using bullet arts for free percent. You wanna spend time countering randomly for Bullet Arts? Go right ahead, Bayo's just gonna keep getting percent while you get your free few percent extra unless you're in VERY VERY specific circumstances where you MIGHT get an enhanced punish off a jab hit as Marth/Lucina.
 

Krysco

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In regards to Kirby and his copy abilities, I think the best ones to look at would be the ones of the top tiers. There may be all sorts of useful stuff Kirby gets access to from Shulk or Samus but if you never run into them then it won't help you. It also helps to narrow down 57 copy abilities to 10 or so. With that in mind, here's my understanding of what he gets access to for the top tier copy abilities:
:4bayonetta:Somewhat useful move for catching landings. Don't think it can force approaches though since Bayo can just use dtilt bullets.
:4cloud:Again, able to catch landings but might also be useful for edgeguarding. Best example thst comes to mind being to 2 frame his limit Climhazzard.
:4diddy:Best I can think of is just pestering him. Might help with edgeguarding.
:4fox:Best just for potshot damage. Reflector means you can't force him to approach but crouch means he can't force you to approach either.
:4mario:Can help with approaching, walling out, landing and can jab lock. All very minor though since it's rather slow and can be beat by a lot of attacks.
:4mewtwo:Baby ones can jab lock and just pester Mewtwo and fully charged ones can kill. Very risky though due to Confusion. Does Kirby get any kill confirms with Shadow Ball like he does for Samus Charge Shot?
:rosalina:Maybe catch landings? Otherwise it can do some damage to Luma while possibly staying safe? I don't think GP can stop it either. Not too sure on the usefulness of this one.
:4ryu:Might help to keep him out? Pretty slow and not that threatening either but Kirby does get access to all 6(?) variants. Also jab locks iirc.
:4sheik:Can 'force' approaches while Sheik can't do the same due to crouch. Force being in quotes since Kirby can't crouch during needle charge and if Sheik has the percent or stock lead, going on a platform removes the threat of needles.
:4sonic:No idea what use this could have. Recovery maybe?
:4zss:Kill confirm at higher percents if Kirby can get to her fast enough. Otherwise it could catch grab attempts I guess.

Completely different topic and this may be best brought up elsewhere but something I've been debating doing is testing something that I started doing with Roy, but with every character. That being testing certain moves that can knock characters onto platforms and finding what exact percents they're forced into a tech situation regardless of di. From my Roy testings so far, I've found that bthrow is always ruined by di but dthrow works on anyone that isn't floaty for at least a bit. The percent range is never really in a range where it could lead to a kill but it can lead to some extra damage that could otherwise be avoided without the platform there. Here's the thread I've made in the Roy boards for my testing: https://smashboards.com/threads/roy-bthrow-dthrow-platform-frame-traps.440987/ I've got a word document with di testings from everyone from Mario to Falco so far.

Planning on doing this for at least Roy and Robin on every legal stage save for FD, Lylat and Duck Hunt and also plan on testing rage and freshness bonus but I could see about doing it for every character. Would take a very long time but it'd help to keep me interested if I tested with more characters. My mind can only handle throwing people with Roy for so long before I get bored.
 

Y2Kay

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In regards to Kirby and his copy abilities, I think the best ones to look at would be the ones of the top tiers. There may be all sorts of useful stuff Kirby gets access to from Shulk or Samus but if you never run into them then it won't help you. It also helps to narrow down 57 copy abilities to 10 or so. With that in mind, here's my understanding of what he gets access to for the top tier copy abilities:
:4bayonetta:Somewhat useful move for catching landings. Don't think it can force approaches though since Bayo can just use dtilt bullets.
:4cloud:Again, able to catch landings but might also be useful for edgeguarding. Best example thst comes to mind being to 2 frame his limit Climhazzard.
:4diddy:Best I can think of is just pestering him. Might help with edgeguarding.
:4fox:Best just for potshot damage. Reflector means you can't force him to approach but crouch means he can't force you to approach either.
:4mario:Can help with approaching, walling out, landing and can jab lock. All very minor though since it's rather slow and can be beat by a lot of attacks.
:4mewtwo:Baby ones can jab lock and just pester Mewtwo and fully charged ones can kill. Very risky though due to Confusion. Does Kirby get any kill confirms with Shadow Ball like he does for Samus Charge Shot?
:rosalina:Maybe catch landings? Otherwise it can do some damage to Luma while possibly staying safe? I don't think GP can stop it either. Not too sure on the usefulness of this one.
:4ryu:Might help to keep him out? Pretty slow and not that threatening either but Kirby does get access to all 6(?) variants. Also jab locks iirc.
:4sheik:Can 'force' approaches while Sheik can't do the same due to crouch. Force being in quotes since Kirby can't crouch during needle charge and if Sheik has the percent or stock lead, going on a platform removes the threat of needles.
:4sonic:No idea what use this could have. Recovery maybe?
:4zss:Kill confirm at higher percents if Kirby can get to her fast enough. Otherwise it could catch grab attempts I guess.

Completely different topic and this may be best brought up elsewhere but something I've been debating doing is testing something that I started doing with Roy, but with every character. That being testing certain moves that can knock characters onto platforms and finding what exact percents they're forced into a tech situation regardless of di. From my Roy testings so far, I've found that bthrow is always ruined by di but dthrow works on anyone that isn't floaty for at least a bit. The percent range is never really in a range where it could lead to a kill but it can lead to some extra damage that could otherwise be avoided without the platform there. Here's the thread I've made in the Roy boards for my testing: https://smashboards.com/threads/roy-bthrow-dthrow-platform-frame-traps.440987/ I've got a word document with di testings from everyone from Mario to Falco so far.

Planning on doing this for at least Roy and Robin on every legal stage save for FD, Lylat and Duck Hunt and also plan on testing rage and freshness bonus but I could see about doing it for every character. Would take a very long time but it'd help to keep me interested if I tested with more characters. My mind can only handle throwing people with Roy for so long before I get bored.
Mewtwo Kirby is decent as a stand alone character, but it doesn't turn the tides on Mewtwo. Kirby's shadow ball is very weak compared to Mewtwo's and doesn't get the same uses out of uncharged shadow ball like Mewtwo because of how slow he is. Easily 60:40 in Mewtwo's favor.

Greninja Kirby is easily top tier though.

Mewtwo's down throw does tech chase on platformed stages like you described. It usually leads to devestating damage ^_^

:150:
 

Krysco

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Mewtwo Kirby is decent as a stand alone character, but it doesn't turn the tides on Mewtwo. Kirby's shadow ball is very weak compared to Mewtwo's and doesn't get the same uses out of uncharged shadow ball like Mewtwo because of how slow he is. Easily 60:40 in Mewtwo's favor.

Greninja Kirby is easily top tier though.

Mewtwo's down throw does tech chase on platformed stages like you described. It usually leads to devestating damage ^_^

:150:
I only did a quick test with I think Mario on Battlefield with Mewtwo's dthrow but I found that di ruined it. Being able to di away or down and away at lower percents and then up and towards at higher percents to be able to double jump without ever getting put into a tech chase situation. It might work better on other characters though. Other moves like dtilt, utilt or uair could work better though.
 

ParanoidDrone

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In regards to Kirby and his copy abilities, I think the best ones to look at would be the ones of the top tiers. There may be all sorts of useful stuff Kirby gets access to from Shulk or Samus but if you never run into them then it won't help you. It also helps to narrow down 57 copy abilities to 10 or so. With that in mind, here's my understanding of what he gets access to for the top tier copy abilities:
:4bayonetta:Somewhat useful move for catching landings. Don't think it can force approaches though since Bayo can just use dtilt bullets.
:4cloud:Again, able to catch landings but might also be useful for edgeguarding. Best example thst comes to mind being to 2 frame his limit Climhazzard.
:4diddy:Best I can think of is just pestering him. Might help with edgeguarding.
:4fox:Best just for potshot damage. Reflector means you can't force him to approach but crouch means he can't force you to approach either.
:4mario:Can help with approaching, walling out, landing and can jab lock. All very minor though since it's rather slow and can be beat by a lot of attacks.
:4mewtwo:Baby ones can jab lock and just pester Mewtwo and fully charged ones can kill. Very risky though due to Confusion. Does Kirby get any kill confirms with Shadow Ball like he does for Samus Charge Shot?
:rosalina:Maybe catch landings? Otherwise it can do some damage to Luma while possibly staying safe? I don't think GP can stop it either. Not too sure on the usefulness of this one.
:4ryu:Might help to keep him out? Pretty slow and not that threatening either but Kirby does get access to all 6(?) variants. Also jab locks iirc.
:4sheik:Can 'force' approaches while Sheik can't do the same due to crouch. Force being in quotes since Kirby can't crouch during needle charge and if Sheik has the percent or stock lead, going on a platform removes the threat of needles.
:4sonic:No idea what use this could have. Recovery maybe?
:4zss:Kill confirm at higher percents if Kirby can get to her fast enough. Otherwise it could catch grab attempts I guess.

Completely different topic and this may be best brought up elsewhere but something I've been debating doing is testing something that I started doing with Roy, but with every character. That being testing certain moves that can knock characters onto platforms and finding what exact percents they're forced into a tech situation regardless of di. From my Roy testings so far, I've found that bthrow is always ruined by di but dthrow works on anyone that isn't floaty for at least a bit. The percent range is never really in a range where it could lead to a kill but it can lead to some extra damage that could otherwise be avoided without the platform there. Here's the thread I've made in the Roy boards for my testing: https://smashboards.com/threads/roy-bthrow-dthrow-platform-frame-traps.440987/ I've got a word document with di testings from everyone from Mario to Falco so far.

Planning on doing this for at least Roy and Robin on every legal stage save for FD, Lylat and Duck Hunt and also plan on testing rage and freshness bonus but I could see about doing it for every character. Would take a very long time but it'd help to keep me interested if I tested with more characters. My mind can only handle throwing people with Roy for so long before I get bored.
Kirby's Bullet Climax fires much lower to the ground than Bayonetta's, since Kirby is shorter, which in the Kirby vs. Bayonetta matchup means that Kirby's version is superior since Bayonetta is tall and can't get as close without getting hit. Her crouch is low but I think her hurtbox moves enough during dtilt to clip her unless she's way far out.

Kirby's Luma Shot fires a weird fake Luma that is 100% invincible, unlike Rosalina's Luma that's only invincible on a full charge. The utility of this is debatable since Luma Shot by itself isn't exactly a fantastic projectile, but it's a thing and it gives Kirby a guaranteed "beat Luma" option if he's in a situation where it's actually feasible. And you're right that it's immune to Gravitational Pull.
 

YerTheBestAROUND

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My point is both MK and Marth have more tournament wins than Rosalina & Luma.
But do you have a reason for them being higher on a tier list than Rosa other than results?

Results aren't everything. There's too much emphasis on them in this thread, and frankly they're just prone to ending an other wise potentially good discussion just because "but results".
 
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TDK

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I wouldn't think you could invalidate around a third of the cast and not be top 10.
 
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|RK|

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In regards to Kirby and his copy abilities, I think the best ones to look at would be the ones of the top tiers. There may be all sorts of useful stuff Kirby gets access to from Shulk or Samus but if you never run into them then it won't help you. It also helps to narrow down 57 copy abilities to 10 or so. With that in mind, here's my understanding of what he gets access to for the top tier copy abilities:
:4bayonetta:Somewhat useful move for catching landings. Don't think it can force approaches though since Bayo can just use dtilt bullets.
:4cloud:Again, able to catch landings but might also be useful for edgeguarding. Best example thst comes to mind being to 2 frame his limit Climhazzard.
:4diddy:Best I can think of is just pestering him. Might help with edgeguarding.
:4fox:Best just for potshot damage. Reflector means you can't force him to approach but crouch means he can't force you to approach either.
:4mario:Can help with approaching, walling out, landing and can jab lock. All very minor though since it's rather slow and can be beat by a lot of attacks.
:4mewtwo:Baby ones can jab lock and just pester Mewtwo and fully charged ones can kill. Very risky though due to Confusion. Does Kirby get any kill confirms with Shadow Ball like he does for Samus Charge Shot?
:rosalina:Maybe catch landings? Otherwise it can do some damage to Luma while possibly staying safe? I don't think GP can stop it either. Not too sure on the usefulness of this one.
:4ryu:Might help to keep him out? Pretty slow and not that threatening either but Kirby does get access to all 6(?) variants. Also jab locks iirc.
:4sheik:Can 'force' approaches while Sheik can't do the same due to crouch. Force being in quotes since Kirby can't crouch during needle charge and if Sheik has the percent or stock lead, going on a platform removes the threat of needles.
:4sonic:No idea what use this could have. Recovery maybe?
:4zss:Kill confirm at higher percents if Kirby can get to her fast enough. Otherwise it could catch grab attempts I guess.

Completely different topic and this may be best brought up elsewhere but something I've been debating doing is testing something that I started doing with Roy, but with every character. That being testing certain moves that can knock characters onto platforms and finding what exact percents they're forced into a tech situation regardless of di. From my Roy testings so far, I've found that bthrow is always ruined by di but dthrow works on anyone that isn't floaty for at least a bit. The percent range is never really in a range where it could lead to a kill but it can lead to some extra damage that could otherwise be avoided without the platform there. Here's the thread I've made in the Roy boards for my testing: https://smashboards.com/threads/roy-bthrow-dthrow-platform-frame-traps.440987/ I've got a word document with di testings from everyone from Mario to Falco so far.

Planning on doing this for at least Roy and Robin on every legal stage save for FD, Lylat and Duck Hunt and also plan on testing rage and freshness bonus but I could see about doing it for every character. Would take a very long time but it'd help to keep me interested if I tested with more characters. My mind can only handle throwing people with Roy for so long before I get bored.
I feel like I'm obligated to respond to this one, but I feel so weird since Kirby hasn't been discussed this much since the olden days lmao.

I'll try not to drag it on:

Bayonetta: Actually pretty good at pressuring her recovery. She's probably still gonna make it back, but she eats a lot of damage on the way. It's also pretty good at stuffing approaches and forcing them. While Bayonetta can just dtilt bullet arts, it's not as effective if you hold the charge and wait for her decision. You'll only take a couple percent here and there, making it especially stressful if she's behind in percent. I've found success going straight into dash grabs when they hold bullet arts if I'm close enough, but I'm pretty sure that's not consistent. Very good ability.

Cloud: It can combo out of bthrow and fthrow. The former is a good way to force limit use or assist gimps at the ledge. Thrown out raw, it can also force poorer recoveries. So far, don't think it's essential, but pretty good (I need to play with it more).

Diddy: Watching MikeKirby get timed out by Jtails game 3 tells me it's good to have a projectile in general. Also it's fun to be a poor man's Diddy while holding banana.

Fox: Yeeaaah, not essential. It's for potshots, as you said. Recovering, after strings, whatever. Add a little bit of percent b/c why not?

Mario: I love this one, actually. Helpful for recovering, forcing approaches, etc. Everything you said, but potentially more useful for Kirby than Mario. I say potentially because we can't replicate ANTi's tricks since... airspeed.

Mewtwo: Everyone charges this, and I'm not sure why. Mini Shadow Balls are actually really good imo. They're a good way to put some pressure on Mewtwo at a distance (and they're not gonna kill you if reflected), plus a way to do something about dtilt (which is honestly the biggest problem in the MU, since we can play defense really well otherwise).

Rosalina: Love this. Wanna make a Rosa main jump on command? They can't do anything about it but jump. It combos from fthrow until roughly 50% and wrecks Luma for free. Frame 10 uncharged and frame 4 charged with good endlag to ensure you're not in a terrible position after firing. Oh, it also beats Rosa's own Luma Shot at anything below full charge. Extremely good.

Ryu: Is he still top tier? Kirby/Ryu isn't bad for either of them without the ability. Shakunetsu is very good though. Shield pressure, can force approaches to a degree, combos into bair at kill percents (hover) - it's pretty good.

Sheik: Kirby can do everything Sheik can with needles. Since this is such a long list, I don't actually have the necessary experience to comment. Also, Sheik leans forward more with her needles, so she can be "outranged" if they throw needles at the same time and right distance. Also there's an edge cancel kill confirm off aerial needles and some combos. Good, but requires study.

Sonic: One if the reasons this MU is still bad lol. But it can be a kill confirm at higher percents, help catch an aerial Sonic, etc. Very meh, but needs more looking into.

ZSS: Another decent MU without copy. Paralyzer is a decent punish tool/kill confirm. Also nice to have some sort of projectile in general.
 
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verbatim

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Should be worth noting that a tier list doesn't match up exactly one to one with playerbases,
But do you have a reason for theme being higher on a tier list than Rosa other than results?

Results aren't everything. There's too much emphasis on them in this thread, and frankly they're just prone to ending an other wise potentially good discussion just because "but results".
It's much more practical to care about what's happening competitively than what people think should be happening, both as a spectator and as a competitor.

That being said, I think that sampling top 1 of relevant tournaments isn't as helpful as the top 16 and top 8 measurements. If differences in trends between top 10 players in the world and top 200 players exist, I will be much more interested in the top 200 numbers, since those are the people that I will be competing against.

Also a lot of times personal skill can overcompensate for a character when you start talking about the top 1%. Big examples being Ranai, Kamemushi, and HBox (Melee). Obviously they play viable characters, but neither of the mentioned Japanese players play a top 10 character, and HBox does not play a top 2 character in their respective games, even if they are in the top 10 or top 2 spots worldwide as players.
 

TDK

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Who are we talking about and how do they supposedly invalidate a third of the cast?
Rosalina. Or rather, Luma invalidates a decent chunk of the cast's approach options, another handful get endlessly juggled between the two of them, and some more get completely destroyed by Gravitational Pull ( :4pacman: for instance, loses his fruits and hydrant. and Rosalina gets the fruit to hold on to.)
 

~ Gheb ~

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Results aren't everything.
In practical terms results actually are almost everything.

But you have to interpret them right - how many of those tournament wins Marth and MK have are from locals/regionals won by MKLeo? How many of those are shared wins with Cloud? Is a 1st place at a local tournament shared between three characters really worth more than a 7th place at EVO with solo Rosalina?

:059:
 

Krysco

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I feel like I'm obligated to respond to this one, but I feel so weird since Kirby hasn't been discussed this much since the olden days lmao.

I'll try not to drag it on:

Bayonetta: Actually pretty good at pressuring her recovery. She's probably still gonna make it back, but she eats a lot of damage on the way. It's also pretty good at stuffing approaches and forcing them. While Bayonetta can just dtilt bullet arts, it's not as effective if you hold the charge and wait for her decision. You'll only take a couple percent here and there, making it especially stressful if she's behind in percent. I've found success going straight into dash grabs when they hold bullet arts if I'm close enough, but I'm pretty sure that's not consistent. Very good ability.

Cloud: It can combo out of bthrow and fthrow. The former is a good way to force limit use or assist gimps at the ledge. Thrown out raw, it can also force poorer recoveries. So far, don't think it's essential, but pretty good (I need to play with it more).

Diddy: Watching MikeKirby get timed out by Jtails game 3 tells me it's good to have a projectile in general. Also it's fun to be a poor man's Diddy while holding banana.

Fox: Yeeaaah, not essential. It's for potshots, as you said. Recovering, after strings, whatever. Add a little bit of percent b/c why not?

Mario: I love this one, actually. Helpful for recovering, forcing approaches, etc. Everything you said, but potentially more useful for Kirby than Mario. I say potentially because we can't replicate ANTi's tricks since... airspeed.

Mewtwo: Everyone charges this, and I'm not sure why. Mini Shadow Balls are actually really good imo. They're a good way to put some pressure on Mewtwo at a distance (and they're not gonna kill you if reflected), plus a way to do something about dtilt (which is honestly the biggest problem in the MU, since we can play defense really well otherwise).

Rosalina: Love this. Wanna make a Rosa main jump on command? They can't do anything about it but jump. It combos from fthrow until roughly 50% and wrecks Luma for free. Frame 10 uncharged and frame 4 charged with good endlag to ensure you're not in a terrible position after firing. Oh, it also beats Rosa's own Luma Shot at anything below full charge. Extremely good.

Ryu: Is he still top tier? Kirby/Ryu isn't bad for either of them without the ability. Shakunetsu is very god though. Shield pressure, can force approaches to a degree, combos into bair at kill percents (hover) - it's pretty good.

Sheik: Kirby can do everything Sheik can with needles. Since this is such a long list, I don't actually have the necessary experience to comment. Also, Sheik leans forward more with her needles, so she can be "outranged" if they throw needles at the same time and right distance. Also there's an edge cancel kill confirm off aerial needles and some combos. Good, but requires study.

Sonic: One if the reasons this MU is still bad lol. But it can be a kill confirm at higher percents, help catch an aerial Sonic, etc. Very meh, but needs more looking into.

ZSS: Another decent MU without copy. Paralyzer is a decent punish tool/kill confirm. Also nice to have some sort of projectile in general.
For Bayo, I thought about mentioning recovery but I figured recovering low would remove the threat and aside from Stone, I don't think Kirby has anything to challenge Witch Twist.

For Cloud, I was unaware of the combos. Doubt it's anything major but more damage is always nice. I agree that it's probably not essential but it's likely better than Inhale. 2 framing his recovery and that little extra percent from combos vs a command grab that can put him off stage, albeit higher up than whereever you spit him.

For Diddy I'll just ask if you've got a link to this MikeKirby vs Jtails match.

For Mario, I question it helping with recovering. The projectile goes downwards so you'd have to be above the ledge for Mario to get hit by it and even then, it's easy to beat and not very threatening. Guess it could force a reaction if nothing else.

Mewtwo, I agree, mini's are pretty nice. Speaking moreso from Mewtwo's perspective but I can see it being helpful for Kirby too.

Was unaware Luma Shot was that useful though I do recall MSC's video showing its combo potential. Is Luma Shot safe uncharged if spaced such that it would only hit Luma?

I included Ryu since the current tier list still has him listed as a top tier. I personally view him as a high tier as do many others it seems but figured I'd include him anyways. Sounds neat that the red ones can be a kill confirm. Guessing that applies to both the tapped and held versions?

Was unaware of the needle stuff though the only combo I know Sheik even has with them is aerial needles to Bouncing Fish and since Kirby lacks the latter, I figured he wouldn't have any combos from it. Did the patch that reduced Sheik's needle range also affect Kirby? If not, that might explain the outranging along with Sheik's hurtbox extension.

You say Homing Attack can be a kill confirm? Is it a move into HA or HA into a kill move? Regardless, it's still not that useful. Don't even think Sonic's use it that much.

Honestly, I love Kirby and any discussion involving him. Decided to merely have him as a fun pocket rather then anything serious since it's generally a bad idea to focus on more than just a few characters and I enjoy my current 3 over him. I find it a shame that from what I hear, the Kirby community is pessimistic.
 

TheGoodGuava

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In what world?
shoutouts to me for mixing up numbers in Das Koopas thread, I hate opening shifts

I'll try to explain my reasons I guess. Both characters have the tools to do fine in any matchup. They both do well against other high/top tiers, and they both have multiple high/top level players backing them up along with a plethora of mid - entry level players. Neither of them will ever be invalidated and have plenty of room to grow and can adapt to most, if not all meta changes.
In practical terms results actually are almost everything.

But you have to interpret them right - how many of those tournament wins Marth and MK have are from locals/regionals won by MKLeo? How many of those are shared wins with Cloud? Is a 1st place at a local tournament shared between three characters really worth more than a 7th place at EVO with solo Rosalina?

:059:
Solo Marth DID get 13th place though. That's still pretty damn impressive if you ask me
 

ParanoidDrone

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Rosalina. Or rather, Luma invalidates a decent chunk of the cast's approach options, another handful get endlessly juggled between the two of them, and some more get completely destroyed by Gravitational Pull ( :4pacman: for instance, loses his fruits and hydrant. and Rosalina gets the fruit to hold on to.)
I don't actually like holding items as Rosalina because it locks out her Luma options. Z-drop to aerial in the air is a thing, but on the ground it completely prevents jab spacing and the like.
 

Nu~

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I don't actually like holding items as Rosalina because it locks out her Luma options. Z-drop to aerial in the air is a thing, but on the ground it completely prevents jab spacing and the like.
Holding items in general is overrated because of the amount of options you lose.

Unless you have other projectiles to keep people out (like Robin) or you have the lead and can do an OoS footstool death combo (mega man/pacman) it's not worth it to hold onto the item most of the time. You're a lot easier to rush down and pressure while you're holding an item as well.
The psychological pressure of holding an item is the main benefit.


Now, Item tosses for traps and option coverage is where it's at. Z drops are cool too, but not directly in the opponent's face where they can just swat you away.
 
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verbatim

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Rosalina. Or rather, Luma invalidates a decent chunk of the cast's approach options, another handful get endlessly juggled between the two of them, and some more get completely destroyed by Gravitational Pull ( :4pacman: for instance, loses his fruits and hydrant. and Rosalina gets the fruit to hold on to.)
Pacman does not lose to Rosalina.

This is an opinion that is largely perpetuated by Apex 2015 which happened very early in the metagame. As time has gone on people have found out that Rosa has really bad options when holding items in general (as opposed to other top tiers) and that Pacman has Rosa specific traps for abusing Gravitational Pull. He's also uncharacteristically good at killing Luma.

The general opinion is that the matchup is closer to 50/50 than anything else. I've also heard 45:55 and even 55:45 from knowledgeable people on both sides of the debate.

example VOD for context

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GhKuXWn1KU
 
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AWildCedricAppeared

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Mewtwo Kirby is decent as a stand alone character, but it doesn't turn the tides on Mewtwo. Kirby's shadow ball is very weak compared to Mewtwo's and doesn't get the same uses out of uncharged shadow ball like Mewtwo because of how slow he is. Easily 60:40 in Mewtwo's favor.

Greninja Kirby is easily top tier though.

:150:
Kirby's Bullet Climax fires much lower to the ground than Bayonetta's, since Kirby is shorter, which in the Kirby vs. Bayonetta matchup means that Kirby's version is superior since Bayonetta is tall and can't get as close without getting hit. Her crouch is low but I think her hurtbox moves enough during dtilt to clip her unless she's way far out.

Kirby's Luma Shot fires a weird fake Luma that is 100% invincible, unlike Rosalina's Luma that's only invincible on a full charge. The utility of this is debatable since Luma Shot by itself isn't exactly a fantastic projectile, but it's a thing and it gives Kirby a guaranteed "beat Luma" option if he's in a situation where it's actually feasible. And you're right that it's immune to Gravitational Pull.
I'm the one who brought up the topic of Kirby's Copy ability in the first place so at least I should say what I know.
Bayonetta Kirby is actually a lot better. Since his hurt box is lower, the bullets will be aimed lower as well. This can be a major annoyance in neutral for the bayonetta, and can keep her out quite easily. In my opinion, it can be more of a pester than Diddy's copy ability.
Cloud's can be comboed with f-throw, b-throw p, and the d-tilt trip, but there are still better combos to do and those percents and are more of just for style and to tell the opponent "Hey look, I can use your move better than you can" It can also keep the Cloud out if he has limit since he's scared to waste it on a neutral b of his own, and can be used to edgeguard.
Diddy Kong is also just for style points, I once sniped a Diddy Kong as he was recovering and it was the greatest thing I've seen in a while.
Fox's is for free damage, like after you get a hit and he's offstage type of thing. Oh, and disrespectful shield break punish.
Lucario isn't listed but is widely considered to be at least high tier, but I'll mention him anyway. Aura Sphere is a Kill Confirm out of f-throw and d-tilt and even if it doesn't kill, it is a potent combo at mid-percents. In neutral, the uncharged ones can be used likewise to Mewtwo's Shadow Ball, but it can be used more freely since Lucario doesn't have a reflector. Furthermore, Aura Sphere's active hitbox during it's charging animation can be used in neutral with b-reversing and wave bouncing to trip off or deal damage to your opponent, just like how Lucario players like to use it. Aura Sphere when it is at high Aura capabilities can be canceled into any smash attack or a b-air depending on where they are prior to the Aura Sphere being charged. And it's active hitbox can help with ledge options greatly as well. This is clearly one of Kirby's better copy abilities.
Mario's is really handy in neutral, simalar to Cloud's and Bayonetta's but he can also use it in the air with multi jumps. It can also be a good use in recovering with it's downward angle. Plus it can lead to jab locks that weren't possible before due to the range, and can to make people slide off platforms for more jab locks, Yay!
Megaman isn't listed but is added as well as Lucario since he is a threat in competitive play. Megaman's Jump Cancel Glide Toss also applies to Kirby, giving him help with movement and pressure. Just like Megaman, he can JCGT the Metal Blade downward repeatedly and make it a combo into a potential Smash Attack. Then there is his footstool combos, practically the same with all of Megaman's, and the Z-Drop Metal Blade<D-air. Z-Drop Metal Blade<D-air or Stone can also be a shield break, and metal
Blade aimed downwards or Z-drop Metal Blade can snatch the two frame.
MK, like Lucario and Megaman isn't listed but he's also believed to be at least high tier. Weak u-tilt and falling u-air can combo into tornado, and it can be used to recover.
Shadow ball is a kill confirm with falling u-air, d-tilt trip, sometimes d-air, and weak u-tilt, I believe it's not confirmed with f-throw, but I may be mistaken. I wouldn't use it in neutral cause of confusion, maybe uncharged ones. Uncharged ones can jab lock and are platform slide-offs like Mario's
Rosa's combos out of f-throws and d-tilt but like Cloud, there are better combos during those percents. Can't jab lock but can set up for jab locks. And can kill confirm.
Ryu's is a simple projectile that can keep the opponent out in neutral. Plus the red Hadoken (someone tell me the name of it I forgot) is a multi hit so it can break through Ryu's Focus Punch.
Shiek's needles on Kirby are amazing, pretty much a 180 in the matchup. It's speed and long range can make Shiek players have a hard time approaching, and if Shiek tries to needle herself, Kirby can simply crouch under them, then there is aerial needles<d-air. And aerial needles as just an edgeguard.
Homing attack can be kill confirmed out of weak u-tilt and falling u-air, and can maybe be used for recovering but that's pretty much it.
Stun Gun is a paralyzer and you care able to follow up accordingly, F-throw<FF u-air<weak u-tilt<aerial stun gun<any aerial follow up is a cheeky combo as well.
 
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BSP

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Pacman does not lose to Rosalina.
I don't know if I'd go that far. Her edgegaurds are still brutal and it can be tough if she gets a solid lead, but I definitely wouldn't call the MU a hard counter or anything.

Rosalina. Or rather, Luma invalidates a decent chunk of the cast's approach options, another handful get endlessly juggled between the two of them, and some more get completely destroyed by Gravitational Pull ( :4pacman: for instance, loses his fruits and hydrant. and Rosalina gets the fruit to hold on to.)
Rosa holding anything except a key while grounded is completely fine. She loses all Luma commands outside of specials, which are basically inviting Pac-Man to kill it for free.

Abadango gave that MU a really bad rep at the Apex, it's not nearly as bad as people think. Unless he's down by 30%+ and there's less than a minute on the clock, Pac-Man has very little reason to rush into danger in that MU.
 

Plain Yogurt

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Earlier on Plain Yogurt Plain Yogurt talked about how he believes Shulk does well against Bayonetta. While I really don't agree (I think it's a solid disadvantage for Shulk), Nicko recently won a 50-man tourney in SoCal and beat Aphro in Grands. Previously he heavily struggled to beat Aphro in the past (even using :4dedede: as a last ditch secondary for her, which obviously didn't work), so this is really nice. Said tournament is a good showcase of the matchup imo, I'd like to hear you guys' throughts.

Well...I DID say it was one of my more theoretical picks. Plus as a low/low-mid tier my definition of "does well" equates to "doesn't get blown the heck up."

And heck some of that stuff I was mentioning DID get showcased in these matches. While shield sometimes extended Aphro's combos, Nicko only got dragged off the top or side from crazy Bayo things once in that set. In fact a lot of his deaths were at pretty high percents.

Shulk death percents (pre-hit):
WF Game 1: 165% to DTilt Uair
Game 2: 151% to a Bair just a few frames away from getting into Shield mode.
Game 3: 111% to a standard Bayo combo off the top after an ABYSSMAL start. Which he then evened up with a fair string that killed Bayo at 63%. Potentially shows power of walling Bairs against Shulk? He SD'd at 142% for his second stock.
Game 4: 157% from a gimp.

GF Game 3 (did the other games not get recorded?): 140% to a ledge coverage Bair. Loses seccond stock to Dtilt USmash at 140% in Shield art, showcasing how that art can hurt as much as it can help sometimes. I think it might've confirmed to Uair out of Shield Art anyways though.
Game 4: 153% to a Bair as he was trying switch to Shield.

So if I've got my math right he died at a fairly high 144% on average, which gives Shulk plenty of rage to work with if he can avoid getting gimped by Bayo's excellent Nair. Which Nicko was able to do for the most part, though Which Twist stole his jump WF Game 4. Of course, the caveat here is that Bayonetta doesn't have much trouble with damage racking, so how much of a help this is may not be so helpful. Meanwhile Shulk's damage on his main tools is eh outside of buster. Definitely a weird matchup. Both here and against other characters I feel like Shulk with the lead can be one of the most infuriating things to deal with.

I also have no clue how good Aphro is. First I've heard of him, so I don't know how often he's played against Nicko/Shulk in general besides the time you mentioned or vice-versa (though if the commentators were any indication Nicko hates the matchup). If he's more up and coming I imagine a better one could stand to abuse Shulk's disadvantage even more. I also noticed a lack of Witch Time, which could've maybe deterred Nicko's aggression a bit more.

All that said, some of Nicko's KOs were...goofy (Was that grounded UAir to end WF Game 1 a callout on Aphro's grab or just a nice little circumstance? And Nicko didn't even know what that reverse hit FTilt game 2 was). We take those in the end, though.

And lastly...holy crap Nicko's tech on the wall of Smashville in the last game to turn himself around for the Bair was something else.

Interesting fights overall and, as you said, a decent showcase of the matchup.
 

|RK|

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For Bayo, I thought about mentioning recovery but I figured recovering low would remove the threat and aside from Stone, I don't think Kirby has anything to challenge Witch Twist.

For Cloud, I was unaware of the combos. Doubt it's anything major but more damage is always nice. I agree that it's probably not essential but it's likely better than Inhale. 2 framing his recovery and that little extra percent from combos vs a command grab that can put him off stage, albeit higher up than whereever you spit him.

For Diddy I'll just ask if you've got a link to this MikeKirby vs Jtails match.

For Mario, I question it helping with recovering. The projectile goes downwards so you'd have to be above the ledge for Mario to get hit by it and even then, it's easy to beat and not very threatening. Guess it could force a reaction if nothing else.

Mewtwo, I agree, mini's are pretty nice. Speaking moreso from Mewtwo's perspective but I can see it being helpful for Kirby too.

Was unaware Luma Shot was that useful though I do recall MSC's video showing its combo potential. Is Luma Shot safe uncharged if spaced such that it would only hit Luma?

I included Ryu since the current tier list still has him listed as a top tier. I personally view him as a high tier as do many others it seems but figured I'd include him anyways. Sounds neat that the red ones can be a kill confirm. Guessing that applies to both the tapped and held versions?

Was unaware of the needle stuff though the only combo I know Sheik even has with them is aerial needles to Bouncing Fish and since Kirby lacks the latter, I figured he wouldn't have any combos from it. Did the patch that reduced Sheik's needle range also affect Kirby? If not, that might explain the outranging along with Sheik's hurtbox extension.

You say Homing Attack can be a kill confirm? Is it a move into HA or HA into a kill move? Regardless, it's still not that useful. Don't even think Sonic's use it that much.

Honestly, I love Kirby and any discussion involving him. Decided to merely have him as a fun pocket rather then anything serious since it's generally a bad idea to focus on more than just a few characters and I enjoy my current 3 over him. I find it a shame that from what I hear, the Kirby community is pessimistic.
Bayo: I think Final Cutter can challenge Witch Twist if she goes low, but it's basically that and Stone lol.

Cloud: Yup. Tbh, I feel like most copies are better than inhale.

Diddy: This match made me so sad.

Mario: Yeah, you definitely have to go high. But it forces them to respond to the projectile, and not so much on you.

Luma: Great question. I'm not sure, but it likely is. Especially since Rosa doesn't necessarily want to be hit by it.

Ryu: Nah - only slow hover Shakunetsu Hadouken combos into anything to my knowledge.

Sheik: The reduced needle range does affect Kirby, which is why I say "outranged." Really, it's just because Sheik leans into needles. Kirby can't do much leaning :p

Sonic: Uptilt to homing attack, basically. Kills really late. Could probably kill earlier if you b-reverse it to mess up their DI, though. ...Yeah, it's pretty meh.
 
D

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Well...I DID say it was one of my more theoretical picks. Plus as a low/low-mid tier my definition of "does well" equates to "doesn't get blown the heck up."

And heck some of that stuff I was mentioning DID get showcased in these matches. While shield sometimes extended Aphro's combos, Nicko only got dragged off the top or side from crazy Bayo things once in that set. In fact a lot of his deaths were at pretty high percents.

Shulk death percents (pre-hit):
WF Game 1: 165% to DTilt Uair
Game 2: 151% to a Bair just a few frames away from getting into Shield mode.
Game 3: 111% to a standard Bayo combo off the top after an ABYSSMAL start. Which he then evened up with a fair string that killed Bayo at 63%. Potentially shows power of walling Bairs against Shulk? He SD'd at 142% for his second stock.
Game 4: 157% from a gimp.

GF Game 3 (did the other games not get recorded?): 140% to a ledge coverage Bair. Loses seccond stock to Dtilt USmash at 140% in Shield art, showcasing how that art can hurt as much as it can help sometimes. I think it might've confirmed to Uair out of Shield Art anyways though.
Game 4: 153% to a Bair as he was trying switch to Shield.

So if I've got my math right he died at a fairly high 144% on average, which gives Shulk plenty of rage to work with if he can avoid getting gimped by Bayo's excellent Nair. Which Nicko was able to do for the most part, though Which Twist stole his jump WF Game 4. Of course, the caveat here is that Bayonetta doesn't have much trouble with damage racking, so how much of a help this is may not be so helpful. Meanwhile Shulk's damage on his main tools is eh outside of buster. Definitely a weird matchup. Both here and against other characters I feel like Shulk with the lead can be one of the most infuriating things to deal with.

I also have no clue how good Aphro is. First I've heard of him, so I don't know how often he's played against Nicko/Shulk in general besides the time you mentioned or vice-versa (though if the commentators were any indication Nicko hates the matchup). If he's more up and coming I imagine a better one could stand to abuse Shulk's disadvantage even more. I also noticed a lack of Witch Time, which could've maybe deterred Nicko's aggression a bit more.

All that said, some of Nicko's KOs were...goofy (Was that grounded UAir to end WF Game 1 a callout on Aphro's grab or just a nice little circumstance? And Nicko didn't even know what that reverse hit FTilt game 2 was). We take those in the end, though.

And lastly...holy crap Nicko's tech on the wall of Smashville in the last game to turn himself around for the Bair was something else.

Interesting fights overall and, as you said, a decent showcase of the matchup.
Aphro's a Bayo ranked 11th in SoCal. The commentators were right also, Nicko hates fighting Bayo and says that the matchup messes up his mental state. I definitely liked your post especially with showing off the percents and the exchanges the two had.
 

valakmtnsmash4

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Nickos been struggling with aphro for a while, looks like he is turning it around recently, even when its a very annoying matchup. Nicko has said he doesnt want to solo main shulk any more(and solo maining him is very hard at top level) , and wants to pick up zss or maybe cloud again as a secondary.
 

L9999

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Diddy: This match made me so sad.
This is the reason I have no faith in Kirby. He loses against camp2win really really bad. Terrible mobility so anyone can run away the entire game. Terrible range to answer chip damage and to throw out a desperation hit without getting hit himself. Light so he dies early and it is plausible to get a stock lead. No projectiles to avoid camping or extend damage. Due to Kirby's high damage output, there is not a single reason to approach him, this character is an invitation to play time out, like with Ganon.
 

|RK|

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This is the reason I have no faith in Kirby. He loses against camp2win really really bad. Terrible mobility so anyone can run away the entire game. Terrible range to answer chip damage and to throw out a desperation hit without getting hit himself. Light so he dies early and it is plausible to get a stock lead. No projectiles to avoid camping or extend damage. Due to Kirby's high damage output, there is not a single reason to approach him, this character is an invitation to play time out, like with Ganon.
Exactly why I think copying is important. Being able to force something is helpful. But I should note - that's not entirely why Mike lost (closing out the stock while he had the lead would have been helpful). Answering your points in turn:

Running away the whole match is a poor strat, and really only works for characters with great burst mobility - not just plain old mobility stats (or walling tools).

His range is very much poor, but his ground mobility is decent enough to help make up for this. His shorthop game is also decent - his main issue in catching people is his *lack of vertical range* to catch people that go above him.

His weight isn't that much of an issue - he weighs the same as Pikachu and Fox, and he lived to 170% in the match I posted.

Projectiles - again, this is why I'm a huge advocate of copying. It helps to make timing him out that much harder, and forces approaches more easily.

The think about characters like Ganon is that it's really easy to pressure them while running away because of poor frame data. It's much harder to pass through Kirby because he actually has quick answers on the ground (and his nair - while slower - stuffs moves like quick attack and spindash if they wanna play that way).

-----

To restate my opinion: I only see Kirby timed out by characters with great burst mobility or good walling capabilities. There are few characters that can do this well... but yeah, they're usually top tier. A lot of it can be mitigated by proper stage choice (I learned the hard way not to take ZSS to Battlefield), and others can be mitigated by straight up copying the character that's trying to time you out.

-----

While I'm rambling: Camp2win isn't the best strategy, IMO. While Kirby's high damage output is a great reason to avoid fighting him altogether, it's also why aiming to run doesn't work that well (unless you have burst mobility, great walling capabilities, or you're in the last few seconds of the game). Stray hits can convert into really big damage for him - as a result, you usually want a way more sizeable lead before you let your guard down.

/stream of consciousness
 

Krysco

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Learned the hard way? Lol the very first match we saw with top players was I believe Hbox vs Zero, Kirby vs ZSS on Battlefield and Zero won through timeout. And that was with the crazy pre-launch uthrow. With the MikeKirby vs Jtails match, something caught my interest. Mike did dthrow and ended up popping Jtails onto a platform where he failed to tech. I'm not sure if di could have avoided that but with my whole 'move -> platform tech scenario' idea, I could see it helping Kirby greatly for getting copy abilities if he has a reliable means of causing that type of scenario. Part of why the whole 'no grabbing within a time frame after a successful grab' bothers me is because fthrow looks like it would lead so nicely into Inhale but because it's a grab, it doesn't work :/

Also, since I listed Ryu before and AWildCedricAppeared listed some high tiers along with Chainz mentioning Greninja Kirby, may as well list my perspective on how high tier copy abilities fair for Kirby.
:4pikachu:Can't see this one being too useful since Pika is so mobile. Not very reliable for 2 framing either since Pika has such a good recovery. At the very least, it can get a reaction out of Pika like shielding, jumping or recovering high.
:4metaknight:Cedric mentioned a combo that can be done with it and it gives Kirby another recovery move. Not too good of one but it's there. Also might be useful for catching airdodges but it does nowhere near the damage MK's does and I can imagine Kirby is susceptible to MK's ladder combo since Peach and Rosa are so whiffing it could equal a stock if that's the case.
:4villager:Easily useful. Plenty of things to pocket, combos for most of them and a number of them can kill.
:4megaman:Iiii honestly don't know much about this one. I know it's a projectile and an item and so any item tech becomes available like jcit and z drop. All of the stuff Cedric listed about it is news to me. I wanna say it's either Megamang or the Kirby/Mega main who's name escapes me aside from having 'spider' in it who mentioned that pellets beat MB.
:4ness:Shield break punish and if you're crazy enough, using it on his recovery. Slightly more useful in doubles.
:4tlink:Cancelling his projectiles save for bomb I guess. Not sure if they jab lock like Link's do. Can also possibly pester him when he's airborne since his Hylian Shield doesn't block anything during those times.
:4corrin:Kill confirm and a projectile. Also the coolest hat in the game.
:4marth:More shield pressure though it sucks that it's range is so poor. Same logic if one believes Lucina is high tier.
:4falcon:More shield break punishes!
:4greninja:A projectile and oddly enough, it aids his recovery too. Y2Kay Y2Kay said it makes Kirby top tier. No idea why.
:4lucario:Projectile and shield pressure from the charging hitbox. Might also allow for ledge pressure since Kirby is so close to the ground. Too bad it doesn't scale as much as Lucario's does. Also too bad that you can't get the strong hit of usmash after the charge hitbox like Lucario.
[\spoiler]
 

DunnoBro

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I've been wondering for a while now, but with this recent talk of invalidation I thought it might be a good time to bring up the topic of how much invalidating is too much? When can it be attributed to flaws in overtuning of one character rather than the undertuning of others?

Bayo and Cloud seem to hold the most currently.

Cloud v Lesser Zoners (Pac, DHD, Villager, etc)
Bayo v Lesser Rushdown (Falcon, MK, Pits, etc)

Fox, Diddy, and Sonic seem to hold the next highest amounts though it's rarely as oppressive as the formers are capable of. Mario and Sheik are also often considered "worst MUs" though mostly 40:60s. ZSS is also cruel to superheavies though not much else.
 
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verbatim

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I think Cloud (nairplane) and maybe Bayonetta push it too far at times. Fox/Diddy/Sonic and kind of zss/pikachu are all strong but their ability to invalidate characters is no where near as strong as the former two.
 

|RK|

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I'll talk about a few of the high tier abilities you mention real quick:

Pikachu: ESAM believes that the MU goes from in Pika's favor to in Kirby's favor with this ability. We can fire it off without worrying about Pika's own thunderjolts, and force him to appoach to a degree. It's actually quite good for annoying Pikachu and taking away his ranged advantage. It means Pikachu has to fight us up close, and we're really good at that.

Ness: Did you know PK Flash goes further and faster if you move it backwards?

Toon Link: I like this ability a lot for similar reasons to Greninja - the reason Kirby loses so hard is because he must get in to do any sort of damage. Toon Link makes this... very hard, to say the least. With even a poor projectile like this, Kirby is allowed to do something other than walk and powershield to get damage.

Marcina: It also combos off of bthrow, which is cool. I think we can get about 39% off of two grabs with this ability. Not 100% sure. (bthrow > bair + bthrow > sb)

Greninja: It's actually really good. It helps Kirby mix up his recovery and allows him to pressure Greninja from a distance (and it does this really, really well). It's useful because part of the reason Greninja beats Kirby so easily is because he doesn't have to approach for any reason. And if he does, he can do it easily since Kirby's range is poor (but if you have gdlk reaction time, hey). Greninja himself doesn't deal with shurikens that well (and tbh, neither does a lot of the cast). Really, really good. Outright necessary, IMO.

Lucario: It's pretty good since it starts off decently strong. It can also confirm into bair for a kill.

EDIT: Yeah, dthrow can set up a tech situation on platforms at varying percents.
 
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Krysco

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I'll talk about a few of the high tier abilities you mention real quick:

Pikachu: ESAM believes that the MU goes from in Pika's favor to in Kirby's favor with this ability. We can fire it off without worrying about Pika's own thunderjolts, and force him to appoach to a degree. It's actually quite good for annoying Pikachu and taking away his ranged advantage. It means Pikachu has to fight us up close, and we're really good at that.

Ness: Did you know PK Flash goes further and faster if you move it backwards?

Toon Link: I like this ability a lot for similar reasons to Greninja - the reason Kirby loses so hard is because he must get in to do any sort of damage. Toon Link makes this... very hard, to say the least. With even a poor projectile like this, Kirby is allowed to do something other than walk and powershield to get damage.

Marcina: It also combos off of bthrow, which is cool. I think we can get about 39% off of two grabs with this ability. Not 100% sure. (bthrow > bair + bthrow > sb)

Greninja: It's actually really good. It helps Kirby mix up his recovery and allows him to pressure Greninja from a distance (and it does this really, really well). It's useful because part of the reason Greninja beats Kirby so easily is because he doesn't have to approach for any reason. And if he does, he can do it easily since Kirby's range is poor (but if you have gdlk reaction time, hey). Greninja himself doesn't deal with shurikens that well (and tbh, neither does a lot of the cast). Really, really good. Outright necessary, IMO.

Lucario: It's pretty good since it starts off decently strong. It can also confirm into bair for a kill.
Not too sure about the Pika thing. The moment you fire a tjolt, he can jump over and fire one himself and vice versa. He also still has QA to burst in and can go over tjolt with it. Granted, outside of tjolt, Pika has to fight up close to Kirby anyways.

I had no idea about that for PK Flash. Quite an odd feature to have. I'm guessing this applies to Ness' version along with both versions of PK Freeze? Doesn't exactly make the move useful but it's interesting.

I can see arrows being useful to have but it doesn't seem like it'd be quite a game changer like shurikens, needles and apparently tjolt are. Tink can still run away just fine and has plenty of means of cancelling your arrows even if it also means cancelling his own projectiles save for bombs.

I was aware of the combos SB offered but they didn't seem like anything special. Best use to me still seems to be damaging a shield. May not exactly break it but it'd make the Marcina wary of shielding again for a bit for fear of a shield break.

How does Greninja struggle vs his own projectile? His shurikens should cancel them out save for the transendent fully charged ones. He can shield them, jump over them, possibly HP or SS by them. I agree, they're useful but enough to change the mu and make Kirby a 'top tier'? I guess it's possible if it absolutely forces Greninja to play up close rather than make him play camp2win with more caution since he's a fastfaller and is likely going to take huge damage once Kirby gets in.

Didn't even think about AS -> bair but that would make sense. Doesn't sound anywhere near as lethal as what Lucario gets out of it but anything helps. Iirc, even at 0% Lucario's fully charged AS cancels out with Kirby's and at a high enough percent, it eats and goes right through it. Still useful but there is that to keep in mind.
 

|RK|

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Not too sure about the Pika thing. The moment you fire a tjolt, he can jump over and fire one himself and vice versa. He also still has QA to burst in and can go over tjolt with it. Granted, outside of tjolt, Pika has to fight up close to Kirby anyways.

I had no idea about that for PK Flash. Quite an odd feature to have. I'm guessing this applies to Ness' version along with both versions of PK Freeze? Doesn't exactly make the move useful but it's interesting.

I can see arrows being useful to have but it doesn't seem like it'd be quite a game changer like shurikens, needles and apparently tjolt are. Tink can still run away just fine and has plenty of means of cancelling your arrows even if it also means cancelling his own projectiles save for bombs.

I was aware of the combos SB offered but they didn't seem like anything special. Best use to me still seems to be damaging a shield. May not exactly break it but it'd make the Marcina wary of shielding again for a bit for fear of a shield break.

How does Greninja struggle vs his own projectile? His shurikens should cancel them out save for the transendent fully charged ones. He can shield them, jump over them, possibly HP or SS by them. I agree, they're useful but enough to change the mu and make Kirby a 'top tier'? I guess it's possible if it absolutely forces Greninja to play up close rather than make him play camp2win with more caution since he's a fastfaller and is likely going to take huge damage once Kirby gets in.

Didn't even think about AS -> bair but that would make sense. Doesn't sound anywhere near as lethal as what Lucario gets out of it but anything helps. Iirc, even at 0% Lucario's fully charged AS cancels out with Kirby's and at a high enough percent, it eats and goes right through it. Still useful but there is that to keep in mind.
Pika: But we have multijumps, if we wanna use 'em that way. We don't necessarily have to land after firing off one. And yes, Pika can get in with Quick Attack - exactly what we want. It means it gets frustrating for Pika to sit back and heckle us from afar.

Greninja: Sure, they cancel out if we're just shooting them at one another. But if Greninja has to do anything other than that - jump, move in, etc. - they're quite obnoxious. That and Kirby's multijumps work really well with them. I'm trying to explain it better from memory, but from experience, shuriken is the only way I do well against Greninja. It really does force Greninja to play differently, since he also doesn't have the luxury to sit back and charge shuriken or cover approaches with it or anything. It's basically "let me beat the ability out of this annoying puffball." Which, again, Kirby loves.

A general point about projectiles - the opponent getting past them is perfectly welcome. It causes them to fight us up close, commit to a movement option, commit to a defensive option, etc. It's less about forcing them into a corner, and more about reading habits and getting into a position where Kirby can use his abilities to their fullest. It also stops them from committing to a particular gameplan.
 

Krysco

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Pika: But we have multijumps, if we wanna use 'em that way. We don't necessarily have to land after firing off one. And yes, Pika can get in with Quick Attack - exactly what we want. It means it gets frustrating for Pika to sit back and heckle us from afar.

Greninja: Sure, they cancel out if we're just shooting them at one another. But if Greninja has to do anything other than that - jump, move in, etc. - they're quite obnoxious. That and Kirby's multijumps work really well with them. I'm trying to explain it better from memory, but from experience, shuriken is the only way I do well against Greninja. It really does force Greninja to play differently, since he also doesn't have the luxury to sit back and charge shuriken or cover approaches with it or anything. It's basically "let me beat the ability out of this annoying puffball." Which, again, Kirby loves.

A general point about projectiles - the opponent getting past them is perfectly welcome. It causes them to fight us up close, commit to a movement option, commit to a defensive option, etc. It's less about forcing them into a corner, and more about reading habits and getting into a position where Kirby can use his abilities to their fullest. It also stops them from committing to a particular gameplan.
I trust you to be more informed on the matter than I am since I only pocket Kirby but the mentality I'm thinking with is that projectile =/= forces approaches. Tjolts and shurikens and the like can usually be shielded or one can jump in place, onto a platform or away although the latter two give up stage control. I do agree that they help, almost anything is better than Inhale but I'm slightly doubting the amount of use the projectiles provide. Likely from lack of experience with them and having not seen them in action. If anything, I can see a Kirby with a percent or moreso a stock lead with one of these projectile abilities being an utter pain. The lead forces the opponent to approach rather than chip away at you from afar for the lead but if after the 10% from Inhale, they still have the lead, they can still be patiently defensive and Kirby still has to approach. He gets a new tool to help with that but it generally seems more useful if you get the ability while in the lead. I should probably see about looking up some high level Kirby matches vs the likes of Tink, Greninja, Mewtwo, Lucario, Sheik, Diddy and Pika to see what I'm likely not noticing about the projectile abilities. Pretty sure the best Kirby players are MikeKirby and Triple R?
 
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