Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Deleted member]

That's three things, only two of which are consistent and they're all things that happen because of crouch. Pikachu has these and more, without having to crouch. Using down smash makes pikachu too small to grab, you have to wait for him to sit up more in the end lag and grab him, using bair pancakes him to the ground and makes him near impossible to touch for Falcon. Kirby just crouching is punishable with Falcon's own dtilt, bair, or Falcon kick. Pikachu can crawl or quick attack away to avoid those things. Kirby can't.


He can, but it's rather linear, hence why I mentioned the Air Slash 2 mix up. Air Slash 1 is still a bit slow, it's like dolphin slash but much easier to punish. I can't remember off the top of my head if it has a disjoint above Shulk like dolphin slash does either.

Pretty sure it does. Air Slash is frame 10, it's no Dolphin Slash but it's not what I'd call slow. Both hits of the move have more range than his forward air as well. Being gimped by dtilt or utilt is never fun if I don't snap though. x.x

 

[|RK|]

That's three things, only two of which are consistent and they're all things that happen because of crouch. Pikachu has these and more, without having to crouch. Using down smash makes pikachu too small to grab, you have to wait for him to sit up more in the end lag and grab him, using bair pancakes him to the ground and makes him near impossible to touch for Falcon. Kirby just crouching is punishable with Falcon's own dtilt, bair, or Falcon kick. Pikachu can crawl or quick attack away to avoid those things. Kirby can't.

You misunderstand - I'm not saying Kirby is as bad as Pikachu for Falcon, first. Second, I only mention his crouch as a comparison point. I'm saying Kirby's aerials also pancake him (as low as his crouch 's lowest point), in addition to airdodging into the ground and his dtilt.

 

[Ethan7]

Ally opinions

• Mario is around 8-9, Robin is not great but d-throw to u-air is deadly with rage ChapterLiam comments on AMA - C9 Ally
• Not sure on the best character, but leaning towards Diddy Kong DasTales comments on AMA - C9 Ally
• Diddy Kong would be "broken" if there were no DLC (patches) -Dunnobro comments on AMA - C9 Ally
• Some of Dr. Mario's moves are better than Mario's, but is worse in many areas such as recovery, combo game and mobility Ohlcvux comments on AMA - C9 Ally

Bonus ANTi opinions on Mario

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[blackghost]

[QUOTE="Fenny, post: 21494631, member: 361957"

The Bayo ditto MU is the most volatile in the game, bar none. God i despise it. Not even surprised about it.[/QUOTE]

I enjoy the ditto because you can actually do more nonsense and resets on another bayo than you can most of the cast and since most Bayo's aren't used to actually being endgaurded you can get some free kills too. but that ditto is the strangest thing in competitive play there's no other mu even close to that wierd

 

[Y2Kay]

You think your dittos are volatile?

two words: Lucario dittos

 

[Fenny]

You think your dittos are volatile?

two words: Lucario dittos

It only really starts to become volatile at mid high percents though

Bayo herself is the biggest victim of WT in the game. She can literally be frozen from almost half the length of FD away, not to mention the fact that Bat Within is SO common in the ditto and aerial combat is absolutely ridiculous.

And on top of all of THAT, Bayo's fastfaller status, weight and relatively tall frame makes her prone to getting combo'd harder than a lot of the cast ironically enough. It's just one big coin flip u_u

 

[Kofu]

You think your dittos are volatile?

two words: Lucario dittos

That sounds less volatile and more "whoever takes the first stock takes it all." That's probably common in most of Lucario's MUs but especially in the ditto. Frankly, Mewtwo dittos seem more intrinsically volatile than Lucario dittos.

On the topic of dittos, Villager dittos are fun.

 

[ElectricBlade]

I found the discussion on what habits players have quite interesting. Anyone else want to talk about your habits, top players habits, or just common ones in general? And also how you would go about fixing it. Fixing your weaknesses is one of the most important things ever in fighting games.

 

[TDK]

Link dittos are hilarious. Sometimes they just become FG projectile wars. It's great.

 

[Megamang]

Ethan7

Ally seems to think DLC = Patches, so take that into account. Yes, without patches the game would be dead with broken diddy and a myriad of other problems. Maybe @DunnoBro should have specified DLC characters, but its a little late to mention now.

Not only does his wording support this, but by and large the DLC isnt that good vs Diddy. It feels like he is the answer to a lot of DLC, their crazy hitboxes countered only by banana toss.

Diddy's worst MUs are all OG sm4shers, unless bayo turns out to be hell due to precise banana witch times/gimps.

 

[Fenny]

Ethan7

Ally seems to think DLC = Patches, so take that into account. Yes, without patches the game would be dead with broken diddy and a myriad of other problems. Maybe @DunnoBro should have specified DLC characters, but its a little late to mention now.

Not only does his wording support this, but by and large the DLC isnt that good vs Diddy. It feels like he is the answer to a lot of DLC, their crazy hitboxes countered only by banana toss.

Diddy's worst MUs are all OG sm4shers, unless bayo turns out to be hell due to precise banana witch times/gimps.

So far, I've found that:

>WT-ing his grounded banana
>WT-ing the banana's hitbox as he takes it out initially
>WT-ing the banana being thown

all work. That's why I see the Diddy-Bayo MU as being 55:45 in Diddy's favour at the worst; the MU really hinges on who can utilise the banana the best in most cases. All in all a battle of patience and attrition.

At Smash Conference 67 Salem fought dyr, and while dyr isn't on ZeRo's level at all, it's still worth noting that Salem demolished him every time a banana was so much as staring in his general direction and dyr really couldn't do anything at all.

 

[TurboLink]

Link dittos are hilarious. Sometimes they just become FG projectile wars. It's great.

Link dittos are more like Rock-paper-scissors in my opinion. Then again bombs beat everything (as I recall from memory) so maybe it's not as much like Rock-paper-scissors as I thought it was.

 

[TDK]

Link dittos are more like Rock-paper-scissors in my opinion. Then again bombs beat everything (as I recall from memory) so maybe it's not as much like Rock-paper-scissors as I thought it was.

Rock-Paper-Scissors-Explosive, where Explosive beats just about everything.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I found the discussion on what habits players have quite interesting. Anyone else want to talk about your habits, top players habits, or just common ones in general? And also how you would go about fixing it. Fixing your weaknesses is one of the most important things ever in fighting games.

Since everyone seems to be ignoring BOTH OF US in favor of their own topics I'll just go off on my own habits.
I always seem to jump first before using specials like flamethrower or rock smash. Reason being is that I freeze in place when I use the move (one of 's major weaknesses is the only specials that let him move are easily shieldable and leave him vulnerable plus jumping increases flamethrowers range by a bit). Problem is that makes me predictable and easy to read.
I've tried fixing this by using the specials at any time but it's kinda like having to learn how to smash all over again since that's a habit I've developed over several matches.

 

[Rizen]

I'd like to talk about the high tiers or 10-20 characters. Top tiers get a lot of attention. Das Koopa 's top 16 weighted list

Spoiler

https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/
1: Cloud: 210.5
2: Bayonetta: 188
3: Diddy Kong: 184
4: Sonic: 172
5: Fox: 165.5
6: Sheik: 148
7: Mario: 145.5
8: Mewtwo: 144
9: Zero Suit Samus: 118.5
10: Rosalina & Luma: 88
11: Captain Falcon: 82.5
12: Ryu: 80.5
13: Marth: 79.5
14: Greninja: 73
15: Mega Man: 66
16: Donkey Kong: 61.5
17: Ness: 60.5
18: R.O.B: 50.5
19: Meta Knight: 48.5
20: Peach: 44
21/22: Corrin: 43.5
21/22: Lucas: 43.5
23: Yoshi: 43
24: Toon Link: 41
25: Bowser: 39.5
26: Olimar: 38
27: Wario: 37.5
28: Mr. Game & Watch: 34
29/30: Luigi: 32.5
29/30: Little Mac: 32.5
31: Robin: 32
32/33: Villager: 29.5
32/33: Charizard: 29.5
34: Pikachu: 28
35: Lucario: 23.5
36: Lucina: 21
37: Link: 18
38: Palutena: 17
39: Wii Fit Trainer: 16.5
40/41: Pac-Man: 15
40/41: Pit: 15
42/43: Samus: 14
42/43: Shulk: 14
44: Roy: 13.5
45: Falco: 11
46/47: Bowser Jr.: 10
46/47: Ike: 10
48: Duck Hunt: 8
49: King Dedede: 7
50: Kirby: 4.5
51: Mii Brawler: 3
52/53/54/55/56: Zelda: 1
52/53/54/55/56: Dr. Mario: 1
52/53/54/55/56: Jigglypuff: 1
52/53/54/55/56: Dark Pit: 1
52/53/54/55/56: Mii Gunner: 1
57/58: Ganondorf: 0
57/58: Mii Swordfighter: 0

shows Captain Falcon, Ryu, Marth, Greninja, Mega Man, Donkey Kong, Ness, R.O.B, Meta Knight and Peach in terms of results. I'd rank Lucario, Villager and Pikachu (and take out ROB, Peach, and DK) in there but their results are lackluster.

Ryu may not be top tier but he's definitely a high tier. CF and Marth have been doing good. DK is shown to be the best super heavy and Ness>Lucas in results but Lucas is just outside the top 20. How good is ROB? TBH I don't know much about him or his players. Interestingly the Pits have been doing terrible, worse than Link.

 

[Deleted member]

Shulk dittos are absolutely amazing, but I don't think this is really the type of thread to talk about how fun dittos are.

I found the discussion on what habits players have quite interesting. Anyone else want to talk about your habits, top players habits, or just common ones in general? And also how you would go about fixing it. Fixing your weaknesses is one of the most important things ever in fighting games.

One of the things limiting Shulk's meta is how so many people put his tech ahead of learning fundamentals, along with playing too aggressive or overextending when Shulk clearly lacks the frame data to have that sort of gameplan. It's why people like Tremendo Dude tend to drown at majors despite them performing decently at isolated Florida regionals/majors.

Nicko plays Shulk the way he should be played at a high level, only pressing buttons when it's needed and making use of his best tools in neutral and taking advantage of his strong mix-ups. The only tech he uses is MALLC because he knows it's the most consistent tech Shulk has at higher levels as well.

To answer your question, the most aggravating habits is when I still see Shulks fastfalling right into somebody's's shield with nair. Like, no. STOP THAT ****. Another one is going for Purge before or outside that character's percent range, or doing it on characters that can't even be Purged. Nicko did it in a recent set against a Bowser about 2-3 times and it got me so frustrated.

 

[Nu~]

Interestingly the Pits have been doing terrible, worse than Link.

Is it finally time to start considering how mediocre they are overall?

 

[Deleted member]

Is it finally time to start considering how mediocre they are overall?

Interestingly Ike is near bottom 10 there, 46/47th to be exact. I think he's still a decent character, but has he really dropped off that hard?

 

[Mega-Spider]

Mega Man dittos are stale mates. Seriously, it's like seeing two walls trying to bring each other down, with pellets. It's kinda aggravating actually. Don't be surprised if the match goes on forever. I don't have much experience with Kirby dittos, but from what I've played, it's like seeing two balloons bounce each other across a room. That's weird to picture, but it's true regardless.

I found the discussion on what habits players have quite interesting. Anyone else want to talk about your habits, top players habits, or just common ones in general? And also how you would go about fixing it. Fixing your weaknesses is one of the most important things ever in fighting games.

I'm not sure if you would call this a habit, but attitude is definitely something to pay attention to. One of the reasons I loathe the Kirby playerbase is the attitude a lot of them carry. They're overly pessimistic and spend their time trying to convince others why Kirby is supposedly terrible instead of, y'know, labbing and actually trying to learn new things for MUs and Copy Abilities. Kirby's meta is stagnant because most of the players won't get their heads out of the clouds and won't do anything to try to fight for their character. The only Kirby players right now making an effort is MikeKirby, with Triple R and KID Goggles doing decently in locals. I wish SuperGirlKels would use her Kirby more and improve on it, because compared to her Sonic, Kirby's been getting lazy. The Kirby playerbase spend so much time not doing anything, it makes me angry to see that they would rather give up than actually put in the work. It's times like this where I wish that playerbase would go through some shift to be like the Shulk community: Actually supportive and doing everything they can to show that their character has worth. Toxic playerbases can seriously bring a bad reputation to a character, regardless of where they rank on the tier list. It's why I rarely go outside the Mega Man community.

 

[Nu~]

Interestingly Ike is near bottom 10 there, 46/47th to be exact. I think he's still a decent character, but has he really dropped off that hard?

After ryuga dropping him, Ryo starting to focus on corrin more (although recently on Twitter he said that now he's going to use only Ike for an extended period of time), and San not being able to travel much, he hasn't had much rep lately. I too think he's a lot better than what the data says.

Pit on the other hand has never been popular due to his blandness but has always been thought of as a "given" high tier by a majority of his handful of mains.

 

[Megamang]

Mega-Spider

Happens in the MM community as well. Luigi beats mega after all

But, these things aren't, in my view, what this thread is supposed to be about.

High level habits are more interesting to everyone IMO.

I notice most top players tend to prefer ledge jump and neutral getup to ledge roll/ attack. This is probably because the frame data is much much better, letting them feel able to use their skill rather than being locked into a long animation.


Another less obvious one i noticed was Ally... he really likes the ground turnaround animation. He will run toward the enemy,then just hold away, either running away with the decent speed of a regular turnaround or launching into an instant bair to start some Ally combos. Ive tried to implement this,with only limited success. Anyone have thoughts on why he likes this? It looks deceptive, and allows him to look committed yet really be able to respond to an attempt to punish. Mario being able to cover himself with a bair much quicker might play a big part.

 

[FeelMeUp]

As someone that spends most of his time ledgetrapping and trying to improve it, I'll say that ledgetrapping top and high players(aside from the Sheiks and Bayos) is much more simple than mid level players. Ledgeroll is very difficult to cover even though you can generally react to it, and most players choose something like ledgejump airdodge or neutral getup which is easily covered with a frontal option like Sheik's nair. There's very little randomness in top player gameplans when it comes to getting off ledge.
Ally, for example, will ledgejump almost every single time without fail.

 

[verbatim]

Is it finally time to start considering how mediocre they are overall?

If anything it shows just how little anyone plays them. I don't think anyone can realistically create a theory based argument that puts Dark Pit as the single worst character in the entire game the way result spreadsheets do.

 

[Deleted member]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Nasubi has dropped Wario. He's now dual maining Mario and Rosa. Good on him, no longer gonna be limited by his character choice.

 

[Das Koopa]

wario inches closer to the abyss

Reflex and Gluttony are about the only things holding his meta together at this point. I feel like he's a case study in character decline from mid to low tier.

 

[Rizen]

wario inches closer to the abyss

Reflex and Gluttony are about the only things holding his meta together at this point. I feel like he's a case study in character decline from mid to low tier.

How are Wario's MUs? I know he gets wrecked by Cloud. DLC has probably hurt his viability.

 

[|RK|]

Kirby is really good at at stuffing Kirby's approaches. Kirby dittos - played properly - are really kinda slow.

 

[wedl!!]

wario inches closer to the abyss

Reflex and Gluttony are about the only things holding his meta together at this point. I feel like he's a case study in character decline from mid to low tier.

It's also a very good case study for early metagame perceptions and how patches can change games.

Wario had plenty of strengths prior to the game's patch cycle buffing characters like Mewtwo and Marth, weakening defense, and adding DLC. He never lost these strengths, nor did he ever gain any due to being unchanged besides broken physics interactions. His design didn't adapt to the current state of the game, and as an already niche character he basically got gutted.

 

[Y2Kay]

That sounds less volatile and more "whoever takes the first stock takes it all." That's probably common in most of Lucario's MUs but especially in the ditto. Frankly, Mewtwo dittos seem more intrinsically volatile than Lucario dittos.

On the topic of dittos, Villager dittos are fun.

Oh yeah, Mewtwo dittos.

Man, **** Mewtwo dittos.

TOTALLY RELATED COMIC:

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Best dittos are fox dittos.

Oh and on the Marth thing. Marth has been in top 10 since his buffs, maybe higher once people start optimizing things other than just his neutral. His ledge game is ridiculous, his combo game is overlooked and nobody is even attempting to develop it, and his edgeguarding can still get better. Oh and don't forget that frame 1 combo breaker that also kills. Most of the advantages people say lucina has over him are bull****, nair > fsmash is great and all but so is marths nair > ftilt/up smash/up air/smash and his safe pokes being much more threatening at later percents. People also seem to forget that marth can actually threaten shields with dthrow 50/50s.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Shame for Wario I enjoy watching high level ones though as the meta advances this is only going to continue happening for characters that can't compete. Though doesn't Wario still have a few niche MUs? Isn't Shiek not a total wash for him? I think he doesn't do poorly against Rosalina either since I remember reading that Rosa can't GP his bike a few frames after he dismounts meaning he's able to get rid of Luma fairly well. Wario can also recover from just about anywhere so he has that going for him.

Don't know how true the Shiek and Rosa thing is but if it is then he has something going for him lol.

 

[Flowen231]

The thing about WT is, while it can be baited out easily enough because of its sugoi reward, you could use it to virtual uselessness and it'd only take 20 seconds for it to rejuvenate to max again.

That's pretty insane considering its utility.

OOOH I was under the impression that it it took longer. I blame my own habits for that though ;p. And ty for the info, I'm gonna put that into practice.

 

[Pazzo.]

Wario just seems like a better Jiggs.

Air mobility? Check. Clutch kill special? Check. Great recovery- ah, that's just Wario.

I feel like a character with great fundementals and a pocket High Tier could do well.

 

[Megamang]

Wario just doesnt have range. If you dont shield his aerial approach and focus on stuffing him, his bite 'mixups' dont help him beat disjoints or just good hitboxes at all.

Good Jiggs? How about bad ZSS/Lucario. With waft and setups, he cant be counted out until he wins or loses. A clever player like Reflex is what he needs, since giving him an inch can quickly become a mile.

With this amazing comeback ability and built in camp incentive, its honestly good he isnt a high tier. Meeting Wario commonly would be really frustrating. Id rather just cheer for Reflex and never see him locally

How is SHAD-waft? That was ~80% of my gameplan in Brawl. Really solid, able to reactively hit when you realize theyve committed at all. And airdodges have pretty amazing frame data. And its totally safe if you realize they havent committed. Well, its punishable if they commit, buuut those options usually get wafted if you airdodge thru. But maybe its way worse now, im not sure.

Reflex had an amazing chart about nair in every MU (safety, followups, optimal spacing). These kinda labbings are great for a meta, letting new players establish a baseline so they can learn new stuff effectively.

Early wario got mileage off of tons of bikes and bites. Those days are certainly over. But mobility is so important, i cant see Wario below low mid.

Bike, bite, and aerials also make him seem like a decent ledgetrapper. And being heavy aint that bad, though in this meta it makes confirms pretty easy to land.

 

[Laken64]

Wario just seems like a better Jiggs.

Air mobility? Check. Clutch kill special? Check. Great recovery- ah, that's just Wario.

I feel like a character with great fundementals and a pocket High Tier could do well.

One player on the top of my head would be Earth with as his main and as a high tier secondary both benefit from Earth's style of strong fundamentals and defensive play.

 

[Megamang]

Tons of would-be-solid character duos fall to shiek, fox, Cloud, or bayo, from my theorycrafting. Shiek and fox are enough for my preferred Megaman/Greninja team to have some serious flaws

 

[my_T]

Fox vs Marth

who wins this match-up and why? I've heard from some that it's an even match-up and i've heard from others that Fox wins

 

[Flowen231]

Fox vs Marth

who wins this match-up and why? I've heard from some that it's an even match-up and i've heard from others that Fox wins

I'd say Fox takes that one. He has a way of forcing Marth to approach, and he doesn't have any difficulty punishing most things Marth can do. Marth can use up B to escape some punishes, but once that gets predicted Marth gets punished hard. Fox is rather light though, so a well placed tipper F smash can kill him early, but good luck hitting someone as mobile as fox with that. Marth beats fox's disadvantaged state very easily, but he has to get fox there first. I'd say advantage Fox, not slight or major.

 

[Megamang]

Marth struggles to land, hard.

Its a MU that fox blew up when Marth had no safety. Since viable Marth, its been assumed to be fox's advantage; to me it seems the ratio was set before and wasnt ever seen from a fresh perspective, instead more like it was 'adjusted'...

So id take what you see with a grain of salt. Marth is an excellent gimper. Fox's attributes make marth's sword pretty scary, since he falls fast combos/confirms/traps work extremely well AND his lightweight status makes nair/fair/ftilt/bair tippers damn terrifying. Again, advantage breeds a scary neutral because you really don't want to be launched horizontally in the MU.

Marth's SHAD is something that opens up fox; uair really gets stuff going. DB4Up as well, which can open from a dtilt at low damage.


Sure fox messes you up hard when he gets in. He is fox. The real question is how does the nuetral play out. I dont think laser camping sounds MU-defining; id take 9 damage in exchange for centre-stage vs fox alllll day. Id like to see more high level play of this MU before deciding whats up.

---

What does Marth get off a jab on fox? He seems like the type that would land from a jab. Re: jumping away... a fair nabbing his DJ puts him in a truly **** position, if that is true at high level play.

 

[L9999]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H96KFgRuxTU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urPSBof3uQs

This is what I found of top Fox VS top Marth with Fox winning. They are quite old so take it with a grain of salt. Each time Larry connected a move, Mr. E took 50% damage or got into a disadvantageous position. That goes without saying with Fox, but it i important against Marth because his landing options are bad and Marth is a huge target. He didn't go all out against False, but he made him eat a ton of damage while he was abusing his return to the ground. Fox's moves send the opponent above him with very few distance, making it perfect for Fox to keep comboing Marth, if Marth attempts to get Fox out, a whiff means eating more damage. But no Nair combobreaker attempts seem suspicious, Nair isn't very punishable like Fair. But when Marth gets a combo he can do 30% damage to Fox or get him offstage, so that is a plus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyAYz3J1VCc
Found this for "campy" Fox. While Leo did his thing it can be noticed that Fox can take an opportunity to shoot lasers or just don't approach. Since Marth is a big target and he isn't the fastest in aerial approaches, a whiff or failed approach means eating a crap ton of damage. From this set I noticed something Mr. E or False didn't abuse. Fox is a fastfaller. Getting a Down Throw at early %s is good and because Marth has Up Tilt to catch landings and comboing, Fox can get combod ery hard if he picks the wrong options.