Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

Japanese Greninja are such wi-fi warriors lol

 

[L9999]

It was Cloud getting saved from Mac's KO Punch due to the tilt he received little knock back when hit. It was on a recent dragon smash video (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-ytpLbGZayw) starts at 1:35.

These ledges are a stage hazard at this point. Would Halbert be THAT bad still? Aside the stage hazards I know the low ceiling was a issue but a lot of the ladder and upwards blast zone combos got nerfed. Would it still be too powerful a stage for characters like ZSS and Bayonetta? Speaking to replace Lylat Cruise with it, don't mean to start a full blown stage conversation.

I'm glad Halberd is banned. The gimmicks were annoying, that tiny ceiling and small fighting ground benefits the top tiers in every single sense.

 

[chaos11011]

I'd like Skyloft to be tested. The mountains having hitboxes can be an issue, but at this point, everything else we have has some issue. Walkoffs are overrated in this stage. Transformations come and go insanely quick on Skyloft (not sure of exact time but iirc it's 10 seconds-ish) and it puts the camper in a linear position where they are forced to recover. It skews the risk reward. If someone keeps trying to camp someone who isnt biting the bait, theyre just putting themselves in a free disadvantage continuously. The camper will always lose. It's better than say, the tree, where it's always there (I'm not anti DH tho, I'm neutral. I wouldnt mind it gone).

The last thing I want is both Lylat and Duck Hunt getting axed and have a 5 stage meta. Void and Mr. R have already expressed issues on counter picking ZSS. Imagine a scenario where, even if the ZSS wins, they have the favor. You wont bring her to T&C or Dreamland. Battlefield is tri layout so it also favors her. All ZSS needs to do is ban Smashville or FD, meaning that out of those two, they will always go to the stage they want.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Seems like more top players now have a distaste for Smashboards because of Scrub's 4148th maniacal misinformed ranting. Just what we needed, huh.

Anyway, on the discussion.
I think the character's still pretty good but the grab+uair changes were so bad that her reward isn't high enough without rage compared to the risk she incurs. There's a lot of commitment in most of her combo starters and she has some of the easiest openings to exploit of any top tier.
Imo zair is way underutilized by the majority of ZSS players and nair/grab are abused far more than they should be. A ZSS that focuses on less commitment by using her mobility/zair/ftilt to avoid attacks then punch holes in defenses once the openings present themselves would be much better than one that uses the old style of going for a lot of aggressive nairs and grabs to try for big damage at all points of the game.
Unfortunately this doesn't really help with her bad matchups. Just makes her even and good ones a little better.
Sheik and Diddy don't really provide the openings for her to punish, so Nairo's higher risk/reward style is quite a bit better there.

One important thing to mention, though, is that she benefits more from 1 ban than most other good characters.
You can't really avoid her taking you to T&C or DL at all, and those are often "free" games for her once things start to go awry.

 

[Floor]

L9999 @Bowserboy3 @NotLiquid
You all make good points and thanks for the responses.

I personally am very conservative when it comes to identifying the top players. Yes, SuperGirlKels and Craftis and Sodrek and great great great players, I set them slightly apart from the likes of 6WX and Larry Luur and Nairo (But maybe I haven't been watching competitive smash long enough to know that this comparison is wrong). The amount of Sonic and Fox mains certainly helps them, i suppose, even if the top spot between the three is usually held by Nairo.

I suppose it hardly matters to begin with; The top 13 or so characters are all about equally as viable.

 

[Pazzo.]

Seems like more top players now have a distaste for Smashboards because of Scrub's 4148th maniacal misinformed ranting. Just what we needed, huh.

That's not the site's fault. If a few prideful pseudo-intellectuals drive people away from the actual meaningful discussion, that's on the people driven away.

I wouldn't be half the player I am if it wasn't for this thread series. I know that's not saying much, but still.

L9999 @Bowserboy3 @NotLiquid
You all make good points and thanks for the responses.

I personally am very conservative when it comes to identifying the top players. Yes, SuperGirlKels and Craftis and Sodrek and great great great players, I set them slightly apart from the likes of 6WX and Larry Luur and Nairo (But maybe I haven't been watching competitive smash long enough to know that this comparison is wrong). The amount of Sonic and Fox mains certainly helps them, i suppose, even if the top spot between the three is usually held by Nairo.

I suppose it hardly matters to begin with; The top 13 or so characters are all about equally as viable.

Usually if they can make top 15 or so at majors consistently (lol ESAM), then they're a "top" player. But maybe there's someone here that can inform me if we have a certain criteria before someone is "top"?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'd like Skyloft to be tested. The mountains having hitboxes can be an issue, but at this point, everything else we have has some issue. Walkoffs are overrated in this stage. Transformations come and go insanely quick on Skyloft (not sure of exact time but iirc it's 10 seconds-ish) and it puts the camper in a linear position where they are forced to recover. It skews the risk reward. If someone keeps trying to camp someone who isnt biting the bait, theyre just putting themselves in a free disadvantage continuously. The camper will always lose. It's better than say, the tree, where it's always there (I'm not anti DH tho, I'm neutral. I wouldnt mind it gone).

The last thing I want is both Lylat and Duck Hunt getting axed and have a 5 stage meta. Void and Mr. R have already expressed issues on counter picking ZSS. Imagine a scenario where, even if the ZSS wins, they have the favor. You wont bring her to T&C or Dreamland. Battlefield is tri layout so it also favors her. All ZSS needs to do is ban Smashville or FD, meaning that out of those two, they will always go to the stage they want.

Wuhu Island could also be an alternative. I'd suggest Umbra Clock Tower, but I have no real answer to motion sickness. (And it doesn't affect me that way so I can't even really relate. Bit odd.)

You bring up a good point though that some characters really like the current stage list.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Good luck with getting stages ADDED. Heck, I'll be pleasantly surprised if we don't devolve back into the old 3 stage starter list with maybe a T&C counterpick as time goes on.

In the meantime though I'm gonna practice the heck out of drifting through Lylat. Being able to maybe mix up my ledge options a bit more could be neat.

EDIT: Tried this for a half an hour just floating under it with Jiggs and only went through Lylat once. This apparently isn't as simple as "when the stage tilts."

 

[Megamang]

I feel its my duty to warn you that megaman's uair is busted af on skyloft.


But something something mid tier, please add it to rotation :D


Orrr... we could remake a pokemon stadium platform layout on custom and use that. Ive been doing it for a while on my wii, its aiight.

 

[Pazzo.]

I feel its my duty to warn you that megaman's uair is busted af on skyloft.


But something something mid tier, please add it to rotation :D


Orrr... we could remake a pokemon stadium platform layout on custom and use that. Ive been doing it for a while on my wii, its aiight.

Considering the sharing feature of Custom Stage, this is logistically feasible.

Maybe the backroom can make a stage that the meta needs.

 

[TDK]

What we need is for enough non-tri platform stages in the meta that you're not always running the risk of going to a low-ceiling, tri-platform stage that a lot of the top tiers love, especially ZSS and Bayo.

 

[Yikarur]

The game just isn't offering good stages. Sakurai failed hard. We had the opportunity to get a godlike stage list but instead we got a really bad stage list, most likely because he thought omega mode would solve everything.

 

[|RK|]

The game just isn't offering good stages. Sakurai failed hard. We had the opportunity to get a godlike stage list but instead we got a really bad stage list, most likely because he thought omega mode would solve everything.

To be fair, the only failure is a hazard toggle. We'd have a huge stage list with that alone.

 

[Yikarur]

Pokemon Stadium 2 ((((((

I really like Umbra Clock Tower as an anti meta stage but health issues seem to really be a problem.

 

[Zelder]

In defense of Sakurai (because people go way too hard on him), I can understand why he dedicated a lot more time to exciting, movement filled/gimmick filled stages rather than static, single/tri platform stages. Both in terms of showing respect to the game series depicted in Smash, and also because those are probably a lot more fun to create/design from a developer perspective.

I would kill my whole family for a hazard toggle, though.

 

[Pazzo.]

The game just isn't offering good stages. Sakurai failed hard. We had the opportunity to get a godlike stage list but instead we got a really bad stage list, most likely because he thought omega mode would solve everything.

For instance...

Yoshi's Island on Wii U?

 

[DunnoBro]

Is there any way to distribute custom stages on-site, without wifi? I know it was possible in brawl but I think Sakurai took out the option completely due to the exploits it enabled.

 

[TDK]

If it wasn't for Ridley Pyrosphere could be legal. Why Sakurai didn't bring back Stadium 1 but decided now was the perfect time for Kongo Jungle 64 to return to the series is beyond me.

Speaking of which, Kongo Jungle 64 doesn't have too many issues with it. It does have Lylat's uhm... silly issue of being able to pass through the stage from below, but really the stage doesn't have too many issues to it, and certainly less than Lylat.

I'd rather add Kongo Jungle and a custom stage with Stadium 2's Default layout than remove Lylat and do nothing else.

Skyloft also might be an option, but then that'd bring up arguments about Delfino and Halberd too.

What this game needs is a way to turn off bosses and stage hazards. Still wouldn't save Umbra Clock tower, though.

 

[Zelder]

If it wasn't for Ridley Pyrosphere could be legal. Why Sakurai didn't bring back Stadium 1 but decided now was the perfect time for Kongo Jungle 64 to return to the series is beyond me.

Speaking of which, Kongo Jungle 64 doesn't have too many issues with it. It does have Lylat's uhm... silly issue of being able to pass through the stage from below, but really the stage doesn't have too many issues to it, and certainly less than Lylat.

I'd rather add Kongo Jungle and a custom stage with Stadium 2's Default layout than remove Lylat and do nothing else.

Skyloft also might be an option, but then that'd bring up arguments about Delfino and Halberd too.

*Kongo Jungle is made legal*

*a deep, sinister laugh that sounds like the earth being split in two emanates from every single Sonic main simultaneously*

 

[DunnoBro]

The barrel on kongo is pretty abusable, far more controlled jank than lylat, especially with sharking enabled with the whole stage essentially being a one-way platform.

It's actually really easy to use the barrel to facilitate a timeout with the lead. And the issue is only aggravated by the absurd blastzones.

 

[Pazzo.]

Is there a rule banning a stage that a character strongly benefits from?

Because if you legalized Kongo, and you know your opponent uses Sonic, ban it. Because otherwise, that's the moment we receive Brawl 2.0.

 

[|RK|]

Is there a rule banning a stage that a character strongly benefits from?

Because if you legalized Kongo, and you know your opponent uses Sonic, ban it. Because otherwise, that's the moment we receive Brawl 2.0.

I'd rather replace Duck Hunt with Kongo Jungle. No need to be timed out on two stages >.>

 

[L9999]

I'd rather have customs stages. The rest of the decent stages are either too gimmicky or promote timeouts.

 

[TDK]

Would a "Custom Legal Stage Contest" be a good idea if one of us were to create a thread for it? Just to see what ideas everyone has.

 

[thehard]

On the twitter tech front:

Awesome platform cancel tech found by @Ryukred pic.twitter.com/VK73cpL3OM

— Beefy Smash Doods (@BeefySmashDoods) October 12, 2016

So I think Void used the hurtbox shifting of u-air's landing lag to avoid Komo's second u-tilt, where airdodge would've got hit

What a god. pic.twitter.com/m347tI5aVh

— Deku Tree (@Treethesheikguy) October 12, 2016

 

[Aaron1997]

Welp we have another Doggy. Explain to me how a Character with 4 Top level mains be low tier?

For Frogs that want to see more Some

And..

Frog Dittos

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Welp we have another Doggy. Explain to me how a Character with 4 Top level mains be low tier?

By being in a different meta. Japan and NA don't compared 1:1 directly (particularly noteworthy: how many different people can place well at major tournaments over there, which in turn makes nobody super consistent results wise outside of a very select few. Much more select than NA). The two regions have quite noticeably different strengths and weaknesses.

Frankly, Japan and NA tournament results should be tracked seperately. Arguably EU as well. But that would be asking too much of Das Koopa to be sure. Poor guy is already doing a lot as it is.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Wifi vs. reality is incredibly skewed because 6f of input lag is already in the game, now add wifi. That's basically it.

Also Bowser Jr's recovery is 100% bottom tier against Dr. Mario because Doc can Dair him out of Up+B and this autogimps him at most any % soooo yeah. Only in this matchup tho, lol.

Most moves with hitboxes below them are going to destroy Bowser Jr's recovery. Yes he has mixups with side special but that doesn't save him from getting gimped at 10% because somebody knows their timing. To me his recovery is like Fox's, it can cover a lot of distance but the amount of time it takes for him to get anywhere with it and the linear path makes it easy to edgeguard. He either uses side b then up b, just side b, or just up b. Good two framing moves like Diddy and Marth's dtilts, downwards multihits or sex kicks like Wario, Peach, Doc, and Cloud's dair, or projectiles that can move diagonally or be controlled like Pikachu, Sheik, Mario, Pit, and Ness.

 

[Nu~]

Most moves with hitboxes below them are going to destroy Bowser Jr's recovery. Yes he has mixups with side special but that doesn't save him from getting gimped at 10% because a Jigglypuff/MK decided to hover at the ledge with nair or a Sheik/Mario/Pikachu who know how to hit the b button while in the air. To me his recovery is like Fox's, it can cover a lot of distance but the amount of time it takes for him to get anywhere with it makes it easy to edgeguard.

You're assuming he's always going to recover low. If you hover at the ledge with Nair you're going to get fair'd or slapped by spin out. He can also just go under the stage and get to the other ledge before you can get to him.
The kart moves extremely quick and spin out easily beats out those small, non threatening hitboxes. Thunder jolt and fire ball gimp attempts are evaded by kart, air dodge, Uair can cancel them out...

For some reason you're assuming that Bowser Jr. either always has to go for up B or that he has lost his jump.


Are you going to keep going off of narrow theorycraft or are you gonna consider ALL of his options and how it all pans out from there?

You can even watch a set: https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=oNlxKRZquLI

Count how many times @ViceGrip dies to a gimp by K9's sheik.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

You're assuming he's always going to recover low. If you hover at the ledge with Nair you're going to get fair'd or slapped by spin out. He can also just go under the stage and get to the other ledge before you can get to him.
The kart moves extremely quick and spin out easily beats out those small, non threatening hitboxes. Thunder jolt and fire ball gimp attempts are evaded by kart, air dodge, Uair can cancel them out.

Both Pikachu and Mario can chase the projectile and punish Bowser Jr as soon as he uses kart, airdodges, or up airs. I realized later that Jigglypuff/MK nairs weren't really good examples but are almost always going to be the death of him if he recovers low.

For some reason you're assuming that Bowser Jr. either always has to go for up B or that he has lost his jump.
@ViceGrip dies to a gimp by K9's sheik.

What happened to ViceGrip nearly every time he recovered high against K9? He took ~50% before he actually landed, then got punished for landing. By the time he actually reset to neutral on the first stock he had taken more than 60%.

You can even watch a set: https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=oNlxKRZquLI

Count how many times @ViceGrip dies to a gimp by K9's sheik.

Great now how much damage did he take in an effort to avoid getting gimped? Nearly half a stocks worth every time.

Bowser Jr's recovery is bad as it is and when people start learning how to properly edgeguard in Smash 4 its only going to get worse. The same thing goes for a lot of characters, including some of the upper high tiers like Mario and Cloud.

 

[Nu~]

Both Pikachu and Mario can chase the projectile and punish Bowser Jr as soon as he uses kart, airdodges, or up airs. I realized later that Jigglypuff/MK nairs weren't really good examples but are almost always going to be the death of him if he recovers low.

Once again this is assuming he's recovering from a specific diagonal angle. The fire ball and thunder jolt don't travel fast enough for Bowser Jr. to not just kart away or cancel the kart into a jump that will allow him to avoid the fire ball and incoming attack. Then he can up B away during their lag.

If you're getting gimped by Mario's fire ball or pikachu's thunder jolt, you're already too far away from the ledge to hope that you can make it back safely. That goes for most characters.


Nairs such as those still aren't a super big issue because Bowser Jr. can airdodge and pass through them as he rises upwards. Unless he has no jump and is at a position where the ledge is the only place he can land, static hitboxes at the ledge are not as threatening as you make them out to be.

What happened to ViceGrip nearly every time he recovered high against K9? He took ~50% before he actually landed, then got punished for landing. By the time he actually reset to neutral on the first stock he had taken more than 60%.

What are you talking about? On the first stock he lost neutral and then took 22% from a grab combo but was not put offstage. He then lost neutral again and took 21% from the same grab combo.
Again, none of this happened offstage while trying to recover.

Then he reset nuetral and got pushed offstage by a jab while tying to dtilt which made him use dair instead. This forced him to recover low and he made the mistake of landing onstage instead of going for the ledge. I'm not seeing your point here.

Great now how much damage did he take in an effort to avoid getting gimped? Nearly half a stocks worth every time.

Why are you lying? During the first game he took 50% one time when he had to recover on his second stock. Every other time he took either small hits or got back safely. The main damage came onstage when he was getting comboed.

This was only because he panicked and never used spin out and he kept dropping a MK at the wrong time. He also kept getting punished for landing onstage with Up B when he could have gone for the ledge.

During the 3rd and 4th games he got back safely nearly every time by beating shiek's aerials with spin out or MK. The one time he jumped instead of spinning out was when he got hit by two bairs and was forced to recover onstage. This was player error, not the character.

 

[TDK]

https://smashboards.com/threads/the-custom-legal-stage-contest.442446/

If you have any ideas for stages you think could benefit the metagame, here's your outlet! d^_^b

 

[blackghost]

Theres no reason we cant agree to make a few more custom stages. just have them all created the exact same accross multiple regions shouldnt be hard if we really want it to happen.
personally i'd rather see UCT or skyloft play tested but knowing this community and how minimalist it is that will never happen.

 

[TDK]

Theres no reason we cant agree to make a few more custom stages. just have them all created the exact same accross multiple regions shouldnt be hard if we really want it to happen.
personally i'd rather see UCT or skyloft play tested but knowing this community and how minimalist it is that will never happen.

Unfortunately, UCT can't really be legal if only because it causes nausea for certain people, which would be a hugely unfair advantage. I've also heard a lot of complaints about UCT's background being incredibly distracting and there isn't really anything we could do about it. Skyloft would be fun but that'd open up Halberd/Delfino/Castle Siege arguments again.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Once again this is assuming he's recovering from a specific diagonal angle. The fire ball and thunder jolt don't travel fast enough for Bowser Jr. to not just kart away or cancel the kart into a jump that will allow him to avoid the fire ball and incoming attack. Then he can up B away during their lag.

Kart out of the way of fireball and up b into whatever Mario throws out. You're assuming that the Mario player is where? Right in your face? Nobody who knows how to think is going to try jumping into you with a Fireball
You also don't need to be low for someone to throw a fireball/tjolt at you. You just can't be above them, which obviously isn't good either

What are you talking about? On the first stock he lost neutral and then took 22% from a grab combo but was not put offstage. He then lost neutral again and took 21% from the same grab combo.
Again, none of this happened offstage while trying to recover..

After the first fthrow > bouncing fish he was at the ledge against a Sheik at center stage, that's really not resetting the neutral. He had no stage control and his attempt at getting back a bit of it was punished and he ended up in an even worse position than before. He got back some stage control after the second fthrow > bouncing fish but almost immediately forfeited it and took another 20% before he got back to equal footing

Why are you lying? During the first game he took 50% one time when he had to recover on his second stock. Every other time he took either small hits or got back safely. The main damage came onstage when he was getting comboed.

Game 3 first stock he took 40% after getting put offstage first stock, and another 23% recovering the second stock. He tried using spin out to beat Sheiks aerials but got punished for it anyways. 4th game he was using it a lot more liberally and K9 didn't exactly challenge it or punish it correctly.
You can probably tell by now I'm not just talking about recovery, but disadvantage in general. With a meh neutral and a bad disadvantage you're not going to do well.

"meh frame data"

His frame data is pretty damn acceptable for his excellent, long range disjoints and meaty hitboxes. The power they contain is pretty sweet too (11, 10, 10, 15, 6). Few characters are punishing a well spaced Bair consistently.

oh and this

His frame data is still meh even for the disjoint, damage, and hitbox duration. Bair is great yes (14% kill move that lats 6 frames and is usable in the neutral, can't argue with that) and up air can occasionally be used to shark platforms. Other than that his other aerials aren't good in neutral and are mainly just combo extenders.
His tilts are in the same boat, dtilts final hit is -13 OoS and -5 on shield drop, ftilt is -20 oos and -12 on shield drop. The range dtilt has makes it better than the numbers say but its still punishable by characters with good disjoints.
Fsmash is great, probably the third or fourth best fsmash in the game. Can't really argue with a smash attack that only has 20 frames of end lag, its like a multihit version of MK's.Up smash is still bad in neutral and only really good at the ledge. As for down smash, its just bad.

An example of a character with good frame data for his disjoint, damage, and hitbox duration is Ike.

 

[DunnoBro]

Welp we have another Doggy. Explain to me how a Character with 4 Top level mains be low tier?

Cause he's one of the most fun and interesting characters in the game? Also it was an online tourney and not even that deep into it.

He's still irrefutably low tier. Garbage frame data, recovery, and reward. The only thing he has going for him is the fact the vast majority of the cast is forced to approach since he negates other projectiles while naturally playing neutral. But with such an awful disadvantage state that isn't a huge boon.

On the topic of custom stages, there should be some parameters. I'm sure we'd all love frozen ps2 or yoshi's island, but I foresee the project only taking off with stages designed to fit a competitive need.

Ex: Large blastzones with no/tame platforms to promote edgeguarding and rage-based playstyles
Or a heightened lip to make 2-framing easier.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Duck Hunt is not low tier.

 

[KenMeister]

So is it possible that we could talk about Kirby and how he could be a potential bottom tier when his MUs and lackluster results are put into play? I've seen too many people still label the character as mid tier or "not that bad" when his approach/neutral seems legitimately worse than like 90+% of the cast

 

[Wintermelon43]

So is it possible that we could talk about Kirby and how he could be a potential bottom tier when his MUs and lackluster results are put into play? I've seen too many people still label the character as mid tier or "not that bad" when his approach/neutral seems legitimately worse than like 90+% of the cast

You can't go even or beat and go even with and be low tier, let alone bottom tier. Being able to be used as a counterpick character aganist that many top/high tiers automaticially gives you some relevance as a counterpick.

 

[Yikarur]

I don't think Kirby wins any of these MUs; the even one's are questionable as well.