Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Megamang]

Im fine with Cloud being a ubiquitous secondary.

In brawl, after you had secondary mk for a while and switched to him when stuff got tough, you eventually realized you should just main him. This is NOT the case with Cloud, dedicated Cloud mains do about as well as tons of other characters so im ok with it.

There will always be effective secondaries that dont take too much time. Its the nature of super powerful tools like Limit, Shadow Ball, Luigi nair/dthrow/fireballs... but they do have counterplay.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Im fine with Cloud being a ubiquitous secondary.

In brawl, after you had secondary mk for a while and switched to him when stuff got tough, you eventually realized you should just main him. This is NOT the case with Cloud, dedicated Cloud mains do about as well as tons of other characters so im ok with it.

There will always be effective secondaries that dont take too much time. Its the nature of super powerful tools like Limit, Shadow Ball, Luigi nair/dthrow/fireballs... but they do have counterplay.

Funny thing is I watched and played competitive Brawl for years and never once saw someone lose with their main game 1/2 and then 3-0 the opponent with a pocket MK in top 8 at a major.

Now Brawl MK is a better character than Smash 4 Cloud. But I'd argue Cloud is still way easier to pick up as the evidence suggests and that seems to be the main issue with him. It's not that he's too good, it's that getting to to be good enough with him to take out top players (as a top player yourself) is too easy relative to the rest of the cast.

 

[TDK]

I'm not against counter picking, I'm asking why does it almost always have to be Cloud? If Smash 4 is as balanced as everyone insists it is, if the tier gap isn't as large as Brawl/Melee, why are top players not exploring low-mid tiers or just rare characters in general for counterpicks?

Simple: Ease of play. Cloud is an easy character to pick up and play, thus necessitating less time (if any at all) to work on him than your main, allowing you to practice your main to your heart's content and have Cloud be a failsafe. Cloud is such a popular CP moreso because he's an easy character, not because he magically beats every character.

Everyone talks about his exploitable recovery being one of his main weaknesses. But if you watch top level Falcon sets, Falcon doesn't get edge guarded hard nearly as often as you'd expect, he normally makes it back fine. Good Falcons know how to mix up their recovery and actually gimping them is a lot harder than those who have only played bad Falcons assume.

I'm all for recovery mixups (playing a character with a pretty poor recovery myself) but it's pretty hard to mix up your recovery when a) you fall fast and b) Jump + Up-B are really your only options. People in Smash 4 aren't entirely used to edge guarding over edge hogging, and as such are less likely to edge guard in general. Combine this with the fact that stage control is so important in this game and people are more inclined to wait on the stage and punish your getup options than end you offstage and risk dying yourself.

Let's not forget the fact that Falcon and Ganon's recoveries have another fatal exploit: If you get grabbed, you can tech jump off the wall and you're in the perfect spot to punish them with any form of move, such as Cloud's fair or Link's dair, and there isn't anything they can do about it. So if you're confident in your ability to tech the wall consistently, Falcon is going to have a very rough time getting back.

Now Brawl MK is a better character than Smash 4 Cloud. But I'd argue Cloud is still way easier to pick up as the evidence suggests and that seems to be the main issue with him. It's not that he's too good, it's that getting to to be good enough with him to take out top players (as a top player yourself) is too easy relative to the rest of the cast.

Let's have some fun: How many times in the most recent patch has a Cloud been pulled out by a top player against another top player and turned around the set?

I can think of two off the top of my head: ANTi at CEO, and Mr. R at TBH6.

That's 2 in around 6 months, with a whole slew of tournaments in between, and even then, Mr. R's cloud was closer to a secondary than a pocket, so it's really just ANTi's one win at CEO. I wouldn't say Cloud is broken if the only time his "oh he's the perfect secondary and is too easy to play and you can beat other players of your skill level with a day 1 cloud" are two isolated moments almost half a year apart?

 

[Zelder]

This argument is dumb as hell because Mr. R himself (literally, in this topic) said that Cloud was his third or second most played character, meaning that the ease of use discussion is kind of moot. So really at this point we're talking about a top player using a top character that they're very practiced with to beat someone. Which...duh?

 

[verbatim]

^ I don't think anyone seriously thinks that people win at top level without practice in any situation, the conversation has far more to do with why everyone is practicing Cloud.

Simple: Ease of play. Cloud is an easy character to pick up and play, thus necessitating less time (if any at all) to work on him than your main, allowing you to practice your main to your heart's content and have Cloud be a failsafe. Cloud is such a popular CP moreso because he's an easy character, not because he magically beats every character.

There are many "easy to play" top/high tier characters (Ness/Mario/etc). There's only one top counterpick character though. Regardless, Cloud might not beat every character in the game, but a lot less of them beat him than other top tiers. At this point it's been pretty solidified that Sheik beats Cloud and that maybe two other top tiers win 55:45 or go even.

Obviously being easy to play is an important factor in determining whether or not something's a good CP but it's not the only factor. Some people have secondary MK's for his matchup's, but not because he's easy to play. Cloud gets picked a LOT because he is very good in both factors.

 

[Fenny]

Bayo is also worse off, since Bullet Climax covers a lot. How much worse off? I don't pretend to know - strongest Bayo I played was BlackYoshi, and I was straight up outplayed, so.

She can duck under them, and once she reaches a certain range from Kirby she can just dtilt bullet arts him and usually get anywhere between 5-10% damage for it. Kirby definitely gets more use out of it than Bayo does though, because you all of a sudden have to legitimately respect him from a distance.

I don't particularly like fighting Kirbys regardless because his floatiness makes him harder to combo, he likes his grabs and he's annoying to try and edgeguard.

 

[ARGHETH]

This argument is dumb as hell because Mr. R himself (literally, in this topic) said that Cloud was his third or second most played character, meaning that the ease of use discussion is kind of moot. So really at this point we're talking about a top player using a top character that they're very practiced with to beat someone. Which...duh?

Just so you know cloud is either my 2nd or 3rd most played character, so implying that it's a pocket cloud is quite frankly insulting.

It's true that secondary clouds have had some success in the past, but not only are you ignoring the failed attempts from numerous "pocket clouds", you're also forgetting that top players have had succes with other secondaries before. Some examples are

- Ally going rob vs tyroy's bayo and getting the reverse 3-0
-Nairo using doc against Esam or heck even his recent Lucina pick vs komo
-Larry going DK vs void and getting the reverse 3-0
-Anti's zss vs komo

There's prob quite a few more but you get my point.

And why is Leo's cloud being used as an example when the char is litterally one of his 3 mains and he's also proven to be more successful with his other characters.

The reason the cloud pick worked out so well is because cloud does well against Rosa (imo) and I recently came back from Japan where I practiced with kirihara's Rosa with my secondaries for literally 3 full days. On top of that I also think Lylat is one of clouds best stages ( komo agrees with me )

So yeah there were a lot of factors here not just "pocket cloud is too easy to be successful with"

Mr. R also had been practicing against a top Rosa with Cloud and thinks that Lylat is a good stage for Cloud. So now it's a top player using a top character that they've practiced with in that MU on a good stage for that character to beat someone.

 

[TDK]

There are many "easy to play" top/high tier characters (Ness/Mario/etc). There's only one top counterpick character though. Regardless, Cloud might not beat every character in the game, but a lot less of them beat him than other top tiers. At this point it's been pretty solidified that Sheik beats Cloud and that maybe two other top tiers win 55:45 or go even.

Obviously being easy to play is an important factor in determining whether or not something's a good CP but it's not the only factor. Some people have secondary MK's for his matchup's, but not because he's easy to play. Cloud gets picked a LOT because he is very good in both factors.

Exactly. The argument of "Why don't people counterpick low tiers instead of cloud" presented by J JustSomeScrub is flawed, because picking a low tier is a gamble because they are, in fact, a low tier. They're not a low tier because less people play them, they are low tier characters because they have less, or worse options. Why invest time in a difficult, less rewarding character that you ultimately won't be maining anyways when you can put that secondary/pocket time into an easy, rewarding character while also furthering your own main?

 

[Dabuz]

Nairo always searches up his name on smashboards to seenwhat people are saying about him and replies if somebody's spreading misinformation about him or being rude about him.


Also on the subject of Toon Link vs Kirby, that matchup is pretty much the same as Link, except that Toon link is much faster and has better frame data. So Kirby struggles much more. Link is about evenish whereas Toon Link is -2.

Nairo believes TL beats ZSS and thinks Lucario is cute OwO

Also Nairo is a bottom 5 player carried by Lucario in a latex suit o3o

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Also Nairo is a bottom 5 player carried by Lucario in a latex suit o3o

New headcannon confirmed.







Kind of curious... To all these pro players, how do you think the Jigglypuff meta will evolve? Will things change for the better? For the worse? Stay where it is?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Funny thing is I watched and played competitive Brawl for years and never once saw someone lose with their main game 1/2 and then 3-0 the opponent with a pocket MK in top 8 at a major.

Now Brawl MK is a better character than Smash 4 Cloud. But I'd argue Cloud is still way easier to pick up as the evidence suggests and that seems to be the main issue with him. It's not that he's too good, it's that getting to to be good enough with him to take out top players (as a top player yourself) is too easy relative to the rest of the cast.

 

[TDK]

View attachment 118819

Not sure who really posted that to twitter, but...

I sense a bit of this.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Not sure who really posted that to twitter, but...
View attachment 118820
I sense a bit of this.

I have a particular sense of humor, I can't help it. Doesn't hurt to live a little, does it? Yeah, the individual in question is very uh....salty. I don't like throwing people under the bus though so I had to be polite.

 

[Floor]

On the topic of counterpicking a low tier... There's really little point if you are picking up that character just for one match up. A top tier or high tier will do just as well in the match up you are struggling with and will help you more in the long run.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

and thinks Lucario is cute OwO

Also Nairo is a bottom 5 player carried by Lucario in a latex suit o3o

I think thats enough internet for the day

 

[TDK]

While Nairo, Dabuz, and Mr. R are all somewhat paying attention to this thread, who do you think is the most underrated character in this patch?

 

[Fatmanonice]

>Death combos have been found with both of my mains in the past month.
>Win locals regularly enough that I don't need them and I have no incentive to travel to bigger tournaments 2-3 hours away.

Life is hilariously cruel.

 

[Radical Larry]

While Nairo, Dabuz, and Mr. R are all somewhat paying attention to this threat, who do you think is the most underrated character in this patch?

All say hi.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

On the topic of counterpicking a low tier... There's really little point if you are picking up that character just for one match up. A top tier or high tier will do just as well in the match up you are struggling with and will help you more in the long run.

One can take advantage of match up inexperience

Regardless, the low tier may deal with the match up in a way that the high tier can't

 

[Floor]

While Nairo, Dabuz, and Mr. R are all somewhat paying attention to this thread, who do you think is the most underrated character in this patch?

by faaaaaaaar. But let's not start that.
Other candidates include

 

[Fatmanonice]

I haven't been around for two weeks. Aside from the Wii Fit combos, has anything else noteworthy been discovered/happened in that time?

 

[Floor]

I haven't been around for two weeks. Aside from the Wii Fit combos, has anything else noteworthy been discovered/happened in that time?

You see the Villager Death Combo? Aside from that, Cloud's recovery is untechable at the apex, So if you see a Cloud recover low, Back air him into the stage. He can't tech. The Beefy Smash Doods made a video

 

[Smooth Criminal]

J JustSomeScrub

Cloud's kit, while strong, is nowhere near as exploitable as Brawl MK's. It also didn't help that Brawl, mechanically-speaking, lent a lot to how busted MK was as well. You're talking about apples and oranges here, and it'd probably be in your best interest to quit while you're ahead.

Also, Radical Larry , Dedede is not underrated. Please stop talking about my character like you know...well, anything at all, really.

Smooth Criminal

 

[zzmorg82]

While Nairo, Dabuz, and Mr. R are all somewhat paying attention to this thread, who do you think is the most underrated character in this patch?

How can you forget Seagull Joe?

 

[|RK|]

She can duck under them, and once she reaches a certain range from Kirby she can just dtilt bullet arts him and usually get anywhere between 5-10% damage for it. Kirby definitely gets more use out of it than Bayo does though, because you all of a sudden have to legitimately respect him from a distance.

I don't particularly like fighting Kirbys regardless because his floatiness makes him harder to combo, he likes his grabs and he's annoying to try and edgeguard.

Definitely - as a result, I've started charging it instead of just shooting. This way I can react to any approach option, and shoot when there's an opening.

 

[irokex13]

You see the Villager Death Combo? Aside from that, Cloud's recovery is untechable at the apex, So if you see a Cloud recover low, Back air him into the stage. He can't tech. The Beefy Smash Doods made a video

Just going to point out that, as a Cloud main, I barely care about this. Like, at all. For me to get in that untechable position, I would have to recover low. Pretty much everyone in the cast has a much better punish on Cloud in that situation anyway. Like, I get that it's another option to kill me, but I should be dead anyways.

Spoiler: Examples of better punishes

D Smash, Witch Time, Dair
Dair, F Smash
Dair, Fair, D tilt, Limit Blade Beam, D Smash
F Smash, Dragon Lunge
D Smash, Dair
D smash
Fludd, Cape, Fair, D Smash, F Smash
Dair, F Smash
Dair, Leaf Shield footstool
Dair, D Smash
F Smash
F Smash, Dair
Bouncing Fish, Dair, Needles
F Smash, D Smash
D Smash, Flip Kick, Dair

 

[Floor]

Just going to point out that, as a Cloud main, I barely care about this. Like, at all. For me to get in that untechable position, I would have to recover low. Pretty much everyone in the cast has a much better punish on Cloud in that situation anyway. Like, I get that it's another option to kill me, but I should be dead anyways.

Spoiler: Examples of better punishes

D Smash, Witch Time, Dair
Dair, F Smash
Dair, Fair, D tilt, Limit Blade Beam, D Smash
F Smash, Dragon Lunge
D Smash, Dair
D smash
Fludd, Cape, Fair, D Smash, F Smash
Dair, F Smash
Dair, Leaf Shield footstool
Dair, D Smash
F Smash
F Smash, Dair
Bouncing Fish, Dair, Needles
F Smash, D Smash
D Smash, Flip Kick, Dair

I actually agree, 90%. There's a lot more options but Cloud's recovery has a hitbox that touches the stage, making dtilt and most smash attack punishes a bit harder (They might get hit by Cloud's recovery). It certainly adds another option and it's certaintly news worth telling someone who has been away from the scene for a while.

I usually edge guard Cloud offstage as a Lucina main. Now, I can follow him off stage (while keeping above him to pressure him into recovering low) and either fair him further off stage or wait for his recovery and bair him for a stage spike all in one motion. It's simply another option for most of the cast that can't reliably F/DSmash his recovery while on stage

 

[FamilyTeam]

by faaaaaaaar. But let's not start that.
Other candidates include

She's been one of the most underrated characters ever since she was bad. I honestly think release Marth and Lucina were Bottom 15 material, but I remember some people putting Lucina as low as last place back then. No. She was never that disfunctional. Not even close. I think even the worst I've ranked pre-patch Lucina was 45th.

 

[Laken64]

While Nairo, Dabuz, and Mr. R are all somewhat paying attention to this thread, who do you think is the most underrated character in this patch?

Like someone said a couple pages ago is one considering Elegant putting in work as the new best main in the world now imo. He has bad MUs but he has good potential as a CP considering we all know what happens if/when he gets in....

 

[TheGoodGuava]

While Nairo, Dabuz, and Mr. R are all somewhat paying attention to this thread, who do you think is the most underrated character in this patch?

Charizard.
In the current official tier list he is ranked as the 5th worst character in the game. Hes placed at the top of bottom tier even though he is CLEARLY better than most characters in F tier and arguably better than a few characters listed as middle tier.
There's also Little Mac, G&W, Ike, and Link

 

[Deleted member]

While Nairo, Dabuz, and Mr. R are all somewhat paying attention to this thread, who do you think is the most underrated character in this patch?

: Whether it's personal bias or whatever, I still think he's in high part of low tier or lower part/bottom of mid. The character is still bringing in respectable performances and his best players (Nicko, Darkwolf) perform well in quite stacked regions.
: Character is solid and I definitely see him as mid tier. You can't sleep on his buttons or grounded neutral at all.
: He has fallen off due to FOW and Shaky more or less being on hiatus but I still think he's good. Lucas is debatably better in the current meta, but besides Sheik, Rosalina, Corrin and maybe Mewtwo, Ness' record against higher tiers really isn't as bad as people make it out to be.
: Obviously not solo viable, but I still see him having good counterpick potential especially against fastfallers.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

She's been one of the most underrated characters ever since she was bad. I honestly think release Marth and Lucina were Bottom 15 material, but I remember some people putting Lucina as low as last place back then. No. She was never that disfunctional. Not even close. I think even the worst I've ranked pre-patch Lucina was 45th.

Nah, she was the worst. Her prepatch shield safety was beyond terrible, as was her damage output, landing lag, and general comboing ability.

Right now she's pretty good (though I generally find Roy and Marth to be more fun characters to play). Pre-patch, she was barely usable.

 

[Nu~]

While Nairo, Dabuz, and Mr. R are all somewhat paying attention to this thread, who do you think is the most underrated character in this patch?

Solid mid tier. Goes under the radar because ViceGrip is his only rep yet does exceptionally well in a region where people like K9 (admittedly he hasn't beaten him yet), Tyrant (who he has beaten), and ConCon (who he has also beaten multiple times) dwell.

Unfortunately the hivemind has already made its mind up about him. Without substantial reasons, he's considered bottom 15 at the moment.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

looking back on it, people who argued prepatch Lucina was better than Marth may have been some of the dumbest people out there. Its like saying Melee Roy was as good as Melee Marth just because he has a sword too

Solid mid tier. Goes under the radar because ViceGrip is his only rep yet does exceptionally well in a region where people like K9 (admittedly he hasn't beaten him yet), Tyrant (who he has beaten), and ConCon (who he has also beaten multiple times) dwell.

Unfortunately the hivemind has already made its mind up about him. Without substantial reasons, he's considered bottom 15.

I mean, its not like he doesn't have one of the games worst recoveries, meh frame data, an effect that makes it so you do more damage if you hit the top half of him, a neutral heavily relient on a projectile you can easily use against him, and no kill power... oh wait

 

[ILOVESMASH]

looking back on it, people who argued prepatch Lucina was better than Marth may have been some of the dumbest people out there. Its like saying Melee Roy was as good as Melee Marth just because he has a sword too


I mean, its not like he doesn't have one of the games worst recoveries, meh frame data, an effect that makes it so you do more damage if you hit the top half of him, a neutral heavily relient on a projectile you can easily use against him, and no kill power... oh wait

A case for Lucina being better than Marth could have been made in patch 1.1.1., where her attacks were much safer than Marth's overall and landing tippers was extrordinarily hard. Before then, however, she was significantly worse off than Marth due to the shield mechanics harming her so much.

 

[Y2Kay]

Solid mid tier. Goes under the radar because ViceGrip is his only rep yet does exceptionally well in a region where people like K9 (admittedly he hasn't beaten him yet), Tyrant (who he has beaten), and ConCon (who he has also beaten multiple times) dwell.

Unfortunately the hivemind has already made its mind up about him. Without substantial reasons, he's considered bottom 15 at the moment.

Funny you mention this, I had watched Vicegrip beat SlayerZ last night at Mega Smash Monday and was going to bring it up here. But the back of my eye lids had other plans for me though, heh.

 

[Vyrnx]

Dabuz did an analysis video of Marss vs Fatality on his YouTube where he pretty much just talks about Fatality the whole time and he says a lot of interesting stuff.

He says that even though Fatality's fundamentals aren't that great, fighting him is like fighting a gigantic multilayer series of mixups constantly and that's why he's able to beat top players/difficult to fight.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Nah, she was the worst. Her prepatch shield safety was beyond terrible, as was her damage output, landing lag, and general comboing ability.

Right now she's pretty good (though I generally find Roy and Marth to be more fun characters to play). Pre-patch, she was barely usable.

Actually, thanks to some, erm, "odd circumstances", I have played quite a lot of 1.0.0 Lucina recently. Yes, she is bad. Barely recognizable from her 1.1.6 self. But it's not like she has nothing going for her. You must also remember that the characters we now consider Bottom 5 were also much worse in 1.0.0.
Really, Smash 4 up until 1.0.8 (which would be all of Smash 3DS' solo run plus quite a few patches more) felt like one massive paid open beta. The balance in a lot of things was extremely primitive (Sonic with Ness' back throw, Sheik's Bair being some kind of portable Smash attack apparently, Luigi almost KOing you out of a grab at 0%, the worst characters in the game barely worked, so on) and the community found a lot of crazy glitches and infinites. It lacked a lot of polish. The game looked really different.

 

[Megamang]

He was asking the top players who is underrated.

Not "now that the top players are here, lets bore them by saying the whole cast is underrated"

No offense


Also, lol at Lucario in a latex suit. And poor, poor void.

Not sure what about fatality's fundamentals are not great, but i trust dabuz. That said, fatality has really solid movement. He had been using EDD and PP for a while now, to great effect.

 

[Rizen]

I was watching vids from the Abadongo Saga and saw SlayerZ and Samsora do well with double Peach like in this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeU-KcLTVm4&index=17&list=PLsoSl1w33CKR6a163kfnmCOVi9jQ64b1Y
I know this is late but do you guys think it was just great synergy or could Peach be very good in doubles? Better than in singles?