Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Y2Kay]

Kirby is aggravating as hell to fight as greninja if he get's an inhale, but without it kirby is hilariously easy.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Kirby is irritating as hell to fight in general, but I guess that's a discussion for another time.
Complaints aside I still think the character's a little underrated. The Sonic Mario and Rosa MUs are a real shame, though.

 

[|RK|]

Kirby is aggravating as hell to fight as greninja if he get's an inhale, but without it kirby is hilariously easy.

Kirby is so free to Greninja if Greninja just presses B lol. It's so annoying

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Which proves how much us Kirby mains should learn how to use characters copy abilities in our gameplay and learn what they can combo into and stuff.
One of if not the biggest thing we need to work on.

 

[DunnoBro]

Kirby can't consistently get the copy though

I think a good buff would be for inhale to cover more ledge options, or maybe buff another move to cover the options that beat inhale. (Giving stone a bigger grounded hitbox to hit hang/drop/jump is the best idea imo. Maybe less lag when used on the ground too. Or maybe let final cutter grab the ledge with his back)

Kirby's floatiness with multiple jumps let him make great use of most specials, especially projectiles. But he just can't guarantee the inhale consistently enough.

 

[blackghost]

If Bayonetta was in need of nerfs she would be winning majors.

most people feel she's fine as is. every bayonetta can't do what Salem does. no more than every shiek does what void can do or nairo does with zss.

what we actually saw in bh6 was bayonetta successfully out zoned by kameme using Megaman and combined that with extremely good di to escape her combos.. Salem got 2 stocked twice. and we saw nairo do what wasn't done by almost anyone elseunish her end lag. the character is good and she was heavily nerfed virtually every tool she launched with is objectively worse except bair.

 

[|RK|]

Kirby can't consistently get the copy though

I think a good buff would be for inhale to cover more ledge options, or maybe buff another move to cover the options that beat inhale. (Giving stone a bigger grounded hitbox to hit hang/drop/jump is the best idea imo. Maybe less lag when used on the ground too. Or maybe let final cutter grab the ledge with his back)

Kirby's floatiness with multiple jumps let him make great use of most specials, especially projectiles. But he just can't guarantee the inhale consistently enough.

Kirby's jab at ledge works as a poor man's Captain Falcon jab. Covers everything but attack (including drop attack) and roll. Very good RPS game there. If they attack, I can attack directly into them or shield, if they roll, reverse fsmash, if they do anything else, they get jabbed or potentially grabbed as a mixup.

And fastfallers can get copied relatively easily - good mixup off of utilt/uair chains.

Tbh, people need to learn how to get the copy in the first place, before any buffs (though the buffs are a good idea - grounded stone doesn't even hit Charizard hanging from the ledge, which is super weird).

 

[Bowserboy3]

MK and Villy?
Hm, when I was building my own MU chart, I searched around and just found the Marcina vs. MK MU to be pretty even. With Villy, I asked some people and they seemed to say that we lost the MU... though outside of projectiles, Marcina eat Villy alive in range, so I had my doubts.

That's why I just said "I can see". I personally think Villager is around about even-ish. With Meta Knight, I feel that Marth is able to hold his own pretty well, though when Marth is off stage, he needs to keep hold of that jump for sure.

On the note of saving jumps, I found that in the last few sets Mr E played at TBH6, he was using his double jump far too early, and thus, was finding it increasingly hard to get back to the stage. This was especially notable vs Mr R. Often times, Mr R was able to hit Mr E with an aerial, or even some Needles as he was coming downwards past the ledge. Marth usually has a far better time recovering lower, as it's usually harder for the opponent to intercept him. While Mr E did a good job at mixing his recovery up, there were far too many times I was watching and thought "how on earth has he made it back to the stage after all that?" and thought "he would have been safer to just lower".

Still, 9th is very impressive, especially when you consider the characters Marth was competing amongst were Diddy, Mario, ZSS, Bayonetta, Cloud etc. Mr E once again makes me proud to have stuck with Marth through thick and thin.

 

[wedl!!]

most people feel she's fine as is. every bayonetta can't do what Salem does. no more than every shiek does what void can do or nairo does with zss.

what we actually saw in bh6 was bayonetta successfully out zoned by kameme using Megaman and combined that with extremely good di to escape her combos.. Salem got 2 stocked twice. and we saw nairo do what wasn't done by almost anyone else: punish her end lag. the character is good and she was heavily nerfed virtually every tool she launched with is objectively worse except bair.

I don't really understand how Neutral Air would be worse off since release, especially considering it was never changed. If anything, it's more useful since it's less overshadowed by her DP in the advantaged state.

 

[DunnoBro]

Kirby's jab at ledge works as a poor man's Captain Falcon jab. Covers everything but attack (including drop attack) and roll. Very good RPS game there. If they attack, I can attack directly into them or shield, if they roll, reverse fsmash, if they do anything else, they get jabbed or potentially grabbed as a mixup.

And fastfallers can get copied relatively easily - good mixup off of utilt/uair chains.

Tbh, people need to learn how to get the copy in the first place, before any buffs (though the buffs are a good idea - grounded stone doesn't even hit Charizard hanging from the ledge, which is super weird).

My main issue with getting inhale off a grab is that it assumes kirby already won neutral, within a certain timeframe. Plus it has varying effectiveness not only from percent but character.

Ledge coverage is a mostly universal trait.

I did forget about jab though. I think giving it a lower angle to tech chase at lower percent and also set up for inhale sounds pretty ideal.

Since jab still loses to attack and certain timings on jump/roll, I think a buff to grounded stone would still be helpful though. Or maybe even less lag on inhale. Kirby is a light, low airspeed floaty with an exploitable recovery and low priority on his aerials. I don't think inhale being a somewhat safe neutral option would be too broken. (Hello monkey flip, confusion)

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ignoring ease of use, do any other characters share Cloud's MU spread among high tiers?

Doing well vs: Rosa, m2, sonic
Oppressing: Yoshi, Ness, Villager, Lucario, Wario, MK(?)



My guess he meant physically hurting you in the Robin MU I guess.

You know who everyone completely forgot about even though he does great against everyone listed? Ike

I haven't seen Ike brought up in this thread for a loooong time

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That's almost every top Sheik nowadays, unfortunately
At least they're starting to bring the needles out.

Speaking of such.....needle-less Sheik is broken in a lot of MUs. In my experience, they generally hurt you more than they help against a decent amount of characters. Namely .

Needles make Zard have to come at you. You limit his ground speed with that and make him need to be more careful when walking up.

He could Flare Blitz/Rock Smash through a needle storm but only if he SHs and predicts it close up.

He is super juggle combo food but needles are still super good in the MU.

 

[TDK]

1. Me and komo are like 5-1 my favor. I have NO idea where that example came from, that's not even close to positive(and I just beat him right before big house too).
2. Dabuz has lost to scatt Angel vex and a few more probably that people consider worse than zinoto. So you may not know all the results/only pay attention to certain events.
3. You're crazy if you think Mr.R, Void and Dabuz = an easy bracket. If that's an "extremely easy" bracket for me, then I must be pretty good for a "one trick pony" lol. It's not like I lose to every diddy either, the only diddy I've lost to in the past year besides zero was zinoto once so far.
4. Judging from what you said, you base things off of major events/placing ONLY, nothing less, which is flawed. They matter of course, but they aren't everything. You need to look at losses as well(ex: 17th at EVO losing to Ranai and Larry, 2 top 10 players that aren't bad losses but just sets that happened outside of top 8). There are many events that matter/have good attendance + top players in attendance. Take those events into account as well, those matter too, they don't need 2000 entrants for it to be counted. Also getting 13th/2000+ (EVO) and 17th/1000(CEO) aren't like AMAZING but definitely far from not being notable.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to this. I can't get to everything or see everything, so I've only got my (warped) persepctive to go off of. Also, the only reason I said your smashcon bracket was "easy" was because, at least from what I've seen recently, you had a positive or even record with every top player you faced, though feel free to correct me on this. Everyone ranks differently, and I value consistency the most at the highest level, which may indeed be flawed. You're a phenomenal player, this wasn't meant as a slight to you.

vs is relatively simple. We outrange him with our sword or our legs, kill earlier and arrows don't exactly do much for Kirby because they don't combo into anything. They can jab reset though, so there's that.

 

[DunnoBro]

In general I think what FeelMeUp means by "Needle-less sheik" is making needles a secondary goal until high percent.

Needles don't control as much stage anymore, and giving up stage control to bulky fortress types at lower percents just isn't worth the exchange for needles.

They're generally much easier to ledge trap and generate advantage on by actually approaching.

Other less bulky fortress types like ness, corrin, and peach are much more appealing to needle camp since they account for more of their stock (plus it's harder to press advantage on good dragon punchers without needles)

Similar to spindashless sonic in a MU like say megaman or ROB. Their playstyles naturally stuff spindash without even missing a beat, so sonic needs to play a more adaptive, reactive game using his other tools.

 

[|RK|]

Thanks for taking the time to reply to this. I can't get to everything or see everything, so I've only got my (warped) persepctive to go off of. Also, the only reason I said your smashcon bracket was "easy" was because, at least from what I've seen recently, you had a positive or even record with every top player you faced, though feel free to correct me on this. Everyone ranks differently, and I value consistency the most at the highest level, which may indeed be flawed. You're a phenomenal player, this wasn't meant as a slight to you.

vs is relatively simple. We outrange him with our sword or our legs, kill earlier and arrows don't exactly do much for Kirby because they don't combo into anything. They can jab reset though, so there's that.

Wait, did the topic become everyone vs Kirby?

I can see -1 at worst... Toon Link is wayyyyy harder.

And your arrows are actually pretty nice. They arc, so Kirby can shoot them from outside of your range to force an approach. Your OOS options aren't particularly amazing, so we're good hitting your shield, all of your grabs and your boomerang can be ducked alongside every aerial you have. And Link is a great weight for combos. We're faster than you on the ground (though you have the better walk speed) and only slightly slower than you in the air (though we have better acceleration), meaning your projectiles would be doing most of the chasing.

Actually, I could see flat even. You do have the kill power advantage, though.

 

[FeelMeUp]

In general I think what FeelMeUp means by "Needle-less sheik" is making needles a secondary goal until high percent.

Needles don't control as much stage anymore, and giving up stage control to bulky fortress types at lower percents just isn't worth the exchange for needles.

They're generally much easier to ledge trap and generate advantage on by actually approaching.

Other less bulky fortress types like ness, corrin, and peach are much more appealing to needle camp since they account for more of their stock (plus it's harder to press advantage on good dragon punchers without needles)

Similar to spindashless sonic in a MU like say megaman or ROB. Their playstyles naturally stuff spindash without even missing a beat, so sonic needs to play a more adaptive, reactive game using his other tools.

Precisely
There's a much higher reward from using her godlike data and holding center stage by making them combo food than from letting them approach you and get in that uncomfortable distance where they can:
A) Powershield an aerial on reaction
B) Punish needles on hit or block

 

[Floor]

vs is relatively simple. We outrange him with our sword or our legs, kill earlier and arrows don't exactly do much for Kirby because they don't combo into anything. They can jab reset though, so there's that.

That's a pretty fair assessment but remember that Kirby had better mobility and better combos. I think Tink and Kirby might be even; Link and Kirby might be slightly in Links favor, making it one of the few MUs Link does better than Tink imo at least

 

[|RK|]

That's a pretty fair assessment but remember that Kirby had better mobility and better combos. I think Tink and Kirby might be even; Link and Kirby might be slightly in Links favor, making it one of the few MUs Link does better than Tink imo at least

Toon Link is waaaayyyy harder than Link. Toon Link could be up there with Sonic. The only way to get in on TL is walking powershield, and we don't get any of our usual reward. That's before getting into any of TL's kill confirms.

TL's arrows are also worse than Link's, since they'll usually clank.

 

[Floor]

Toon Link is waaaayyyy harder than Link. Toon Link could be up there with Sonic. The only way to get in on TL is walking powershield, and we don't get any of our usual reward. That's before getting into any of TL's kill confirms.

TL's arrows are also worse than Link's, since they'll usually clank.

That could be right. I haven't really given it much thought. Neither Tink nor Link are fun for Kirby to begin with though

 

[Wintermelon43]

Did something happen to make non-Dabuz top players start checking here.

Nairo always searches up his name on smashboards to seenwhat people are saying about him and replies if somebody's spreading misinformation about him or being rude about him.


Also on the subject of Toon Link vs Kirby, that matchup is pretty much the same as Link, except that Toon link is much faster and has better frame data. So Kirby struggles much more. Link is about evenish whereas Toon Link is -2.

 

[Megamang]

Yea, if youre not faster or campier than TL... hes like air sonic, with a boomerang.

And arrows

And bombs


And zair for when you finally get in.


Speaking of link v kirby, how much reward does link get on the grab? Seems important, since its a great zone breaker. I know uthrow is gonna kill reasonably early.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Sadly these mus aren't seen very often, if at all, so coming to a complete conclusion won't be very easy regardless.

Though some MUs for Kirby I'm very interested in how he does are:


I know fox is the most obvious, but I'd like to know in depth detail as to why Kirby wins or gives Fox a very hard time

 

[Rizen]

Speaking of link v kirby, how much reward does link get on the grab? Seems important, since its a great zone breaker. I know uthrow is gonna kill reasonably early.

Link can Dthrow> Utilt at 0%, Usmash at 10-40%, FH Nair at 40-60%, and FH Uair at 60-kill%s. Kirby is very susceptible to Link's grab game. IMO Link wins +1.

source
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VC-qvEWaQhgqR7MfMMGaTNyMiTQzXWDJGXpR__Uuzks/edit#gid=0

 

[TurboLink]

Nairo always searches up his name on smashboards to seenwhat people are saying about him and replies if somebody's spreading misinformation about him or being rude about him.


Also on the subject of Toon Link vs Kirby, that matchup is pretty much the same as Link, except that Toon link is much faster and has better frame data. So Kirby struggles much more. Link is about evenish whereas Toon Link is -2.

Toon Link's frame data is barely better than Link's and the range on his normals aren't nearly as threatening.

Both of the characters have trash close combat. Toon Link's jab loses range while only being 1 frame faster than Link's jab. Toon Link doesn't even have a 5 frame jab like a lot of other sword characters.

Toon Link's jab 1 has a 20 FAF while Link's has a 28 FAF, TL's jab 2 has a 21 FAF while L's has a 21 FAF as well, and finally TL's jab 3 has a 37 FAF which is the same as Link's.

Toon Link's dash attack has 9 frames of startup and a 40 FAF and Link's dash attack has 20 frames of startup and a 57 FAF. Toon Link's dash has better frame data than Link's but it's still not a move you'd want to throw out in neutral and can still be punished by smash attacks.

Toon Link's forward tilt has 9 frames of startup and a 34 FAF while Link's has 15 frames of startup and a 38 FAF. Toon Link's obviously has better frame data but he loses range and kill power. Giving him weaker footsies.

Toon Link's down tilt has 9 frames of startup with a 23 FAF and Link's has 11 frames of startup with a 29 FAF. Slightly better frame data again but it lacks the properties of Link's down tilt.

I'm going to stop here since I don't feel like going through all this **** but although Toon Link has better frame data in some areas his attacks lose things or just flat out don't have the properties that Link's attacks do making them less threatening or pathetic. In the grand scheme of things the better frame data in certains areas isn't even what makes Toon Link better Link.

As I and many other Link players have said before the biggest and most significant difference(s) between Link and Toon Link are ground mobility and possibly gravity, weight, air speed, and air acceleration. I forgot walk speed but walk speed doesn't define a matchup as much as ground speed can imo (generally.). The ability to run away from close combat and safely take out another bomb while being penalized less severely when losing neutral is more important than the difference in their frame data.

If Toon Link had the same ground mobility as Link he'd probably be worse than Link.

You can check their frame data for yourself:

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Toon Link

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Link

 

[Laken64]

Sadly these mus aren't seen very often, if at all, so coming to a complete conclusion won't be very easy regardless.

Though some MUs for Kirby I'm very interested in how he does are:


I know fox is the most obvious, but I'd like to know in depth detail as to why Kirby wins or gives Fox a very hard time

For Kirby Fox MU Kirby can literally fish for uptilt (maybe not fish but constantly be looking for) and once he catches Fox with one, you will be stuck for a long time if he follows your DI and pivots correctly then he'll grab you and since f throw has amazing follow-ups especially on a fastfaller like Fox with fair you'll be from 5% to 70% in a blink of an eye. There is a video of Larry suffering from this though I can't find it at the moment. Kirby and Fox players feel free to add on or correct me if I said something incorrect.

 

[BTVolta]

I think the key difference would be sonic. Cloud does better in that MU right? Cap may juggle sonic really well, but that disadvantage, combined with dealing with spindash with no projectile must be rough. Spindash must be used well of course, he can pivot grab bad attempts but its more like a reactive SH approach punish with it's invincible startup. I don't know the MU that well, above are my assumptions based on basic character stuffs. Its definitely not a fun time for captain in disadvantage though. Being combo food just means you'll probably be behind at some point vs sonic, then you have to get it back and if you get hit again... yea. Sonic stuff, but cap's weight and aerials aren't helping much after spindash combos.

Falcon does well Vs. Sonic. Falcon can jab spindash(after the hop) to clank or beat it out(he beats one but clanks with the other. Don't remember), throw out bairs at it or just grab him and gets to start his game. He doesn't need a projectile to deal with it since he is a projectile and it helps for catching his landing with ease. His damage output and kill power can scare conic if he doesn't remove his early enough. Disadvantage is never fun for Falcon, but you're right that it can be particularly scary against sonic since spring does an excellent job at controlling so much space that falcon likes to hang around when recovering.

To add to Falcon doing well, Fatality, SETHsational, Ken, Phoenix, and Wrath think it's even with 6WX, Komo, and Taka think it's slight advantage to Sonic.(reddit compilation thread for source:https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/50dqa8/notable_players_matchup_chart_compilation/)

Some matches to show the MU at a high level:
Fatality Vs. Seagull Joe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5UL9bWIBxU
Fatality Vs. Brawlman1000 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B-lAkKD2zQ
Fatality Vs. Wrath https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn0Eq0j6qSI
Glutonny Vs. IxisNaugus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9piqEROpqF8
SETHsational Vs. Craftis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZnXgBvYe4A

 

[Rizen]

Toon Link's frame data is barely better than Link's and the range on his normals aren't nearly as threatening.

Both of the characters have trash close combat. Toon Link's jab loses range while only being 1 frame faster than Link's jab. Toon Link doesn't even have a 5 frame jab like a lot of other sword characters.

Toon Link's jab 1 has a 20 FAF while Link's has a 28 FAF, TL's jab 2 has a 21 FAF while L's has a 21 FAF as well, and finally TL's jab 3 has a 37 FAF which is the same as Link's.

Toon Link's dash attack has 9 frames of startup and a 40 FAF and Link's dash attack has 20 frames of startup and a 57 FAF. Toon Link's dash has better frame data than Link's but it's still not a move you'd want to throw out in neutral and can still be punished by smash attacks.

Toon Link's forward tilt has 9 frames of startup and a 34 FAF while Link's has 15 frames of startup and a 38 FAF. Toon Link's obviously has better frame data but he loses range and kill power. Giving him weaker footsies.

Toon Link's down tilt has 9 frames of startup with a 23 FAF and Link's has 11 frames of startup with a 29 FAF. Slightly better frame data again but it lacks the properties of Link's down tilt.

I'm going to stop here since I don't feel like going through all this **** but although Toon Link has better frame data in some areas his attacks lose things or just flat out don't have the properties that Link's attacks do making them less threatening or pathetic. In the grand scheme of things the better frame data in certains areas isn't even what makes Toon Link better Link.

As I and many other Link players have said before the biggest and most significant difference(s) between Link and Toon Link are ground mobility and possibly gravity, weight, air speed, and air acceleration. I forgot walk speed but walk speed doesn't define a matchup as much as ground speed can imo (generally.). The ability to run away from close combat and safely take out another bomb while being penalized less severely when losing neutral is more important than the difference in their frame data.

If Toon Link had the same ground mobility as Link he'd probably be worse than Link.

You can check their frame data for yourself:

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Toon Link

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Link

It's also worth noting that Link usually has better damage and hit/shield stun per hit.

Comparing Link and TL is like comparing any 2 zoning characters. They look similar but have very different gameplans.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sadly these mus aren't seen very often, if at all, so coming to a complete conclusion won't be very easy regardless.

Though some MUs for Kirby I'm very interested in how he does are:


I know fox is the most obvious, but I'd like to know in depth detail as to why Kirby wins or gives Fox a very hard time

Honestly don't think much depth is needed.
Watch the first minute and a half of g1.
Then add on the fact that Kirby can kill Fox instantly for committing to both Firefox and Illusion with the right timing.

 

[Juno97]

Can we talk about for a sec? Solo 9th place at TBH6 which was super stacked and outplaced several top players/characters like Larry/Fox, Ally/Mario, Mew2King/Cloud

That and despite on paper we always say he gets mauled by Sheik, I'm looking at Falcon and Sheik sets and rarely see complete destruction. Same thing for ZSS and Falcon sets. And 2 ZSS players made top 8

I can't see Falcon as anything except a top 15 character at least

 

[FeelMeUp]

We just....no, we already ARE talking about Falcon.
Falcon's really good until you throw him against the rat, Sheik or Bayo. Great at zone breaking, almost across the board amazing(mostly even matchups which is GOOD) against fastfallers, good damage output, good ledgetrapping, good hitboxes for edgeguarding, amazing speed, etc.
but boyyyyyyyy are his bad matchups bad.
and boyyyyy are his bad qualities just awful.

 

[TurboLink]

It's also worth noting that Link usually has better damage and hit/shield stun per hit.

Comparing Link and TL is like comparing any 2 zoning characters. They look similar but have very different gameplans.

Yah I used to think Link and Toon Link's grab frame data were exactly the same but Link's grab frame data is objectively better.

Their standing grabs are mostly the same except for the extra active frame Link has on his standing grab.

Link's dash grab has one extra active frame while also having a 66 FAF in contrast to Toon Link's 72 FAF.

Same with Link's pivot grab except instead of a 66 FAF he has a 67 FAF in contrast with Toon Link's 72 FAF.

 

[Fenny]

We just....no, we already ARE talking about Falcon.
Falcon's really good until you throw him against the rat, Sheik or Bayo. Great at zone breaking, almost across the board amazing(mostly even matchups which is GOOD) against fastfallers, good damage output, good ledgetrapping, good hitboxes for edgeguarding, amazing speed, etc.
but boyyyyyyyy are his bad matchups bad.
and boyyyyy are his bad qualities just awful.

Basically this.

His disadvantage against the three you mentioned are a complete nightmare. More often than not, if he's going to take damage he's going to take tons of it, and if he goes offstage he's very likely gonna take a truckload of % trying to get back on stage or just straight up die thanks to his super linear recovery options.

His weight, his fast faller status, his relatively large frame...they all just serve to frankly **** him up when up against them.

 

[|RK|]

Sadly these mus aren't seen very often, if at all, so coming to a complete conclusion won't be very easy regardless.

Though some MUs for Kirby I'm very interested in how he does are:


I know fox is the most obvious, but I'd like to know in depth detail as to why Kirby wins or gives Fox a very hard time

I think Kirby slightly loses against all of them except Fox. I know ESAM thinks that Kirby beats Pikachu if he has tjolt - I'm not so sure, but I get it. Bayo is also worse off, since Bullet Climax covers a lot. How much worse off? I don't pretend to know - strongest Bayo I played was BlackYoshi, and I was straight up outplayed, so.

ROB is a bit tough, but like Link, we can duck his grabs. But gyro is annoying. That's another MU I honestly need more time with.

Regarding Link's grab though - dthrow uair isn't true, is it? I can't remember ever getting killed by it very often.

 

[ARISTOS]

Sadly these mus aren't seen very often, if at all, so coming to a complete conclusion won't be very easy regardless.

Though some MUs for Kirby I'm very interested in how he does are:


I know fox is the most obvious, but I'd like to know in depth detail as to why Kirby wins or gives Fox a very hard time

Kirby comboes Fox to hell with a single misstep in neutral.

I'm interested to see how a Fox focused on pressuring Kirby using bair might handle the MU though.

 

[FeelMeUp]

You can't get a good AC window for Fox's bair on a crouching(or even standing....? just not sure) Kirby. Whiff the bair, get grabbed/pp utilted/dtilted, get killed. Obnoxious matchup. It's like vs Luigi where you basically HAVE to laser camp except Kirby has the tools to avoid lasers altogether while also being FAR harder to hit.

 

[TDK]

Regarding Link's grab though - dthrow uair isn't true, is it? I can't remember ever getting killed by it very often.

It's true at some point - without rage it starts being true at 60. Not sure when it kills, I admittedly have 0 Kirby experience. I'll do some labbing and get back to you.

Link's grab game > Tink's because Link has actual reward at low % and his Down throw up air starts killing around the time tink's bthrow does.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

I don't see the problem with this. Ally hasn't used Cloud since Momocon. Yeah ANTi has a Cloud but he also uses Sonic, Metaknight, Zero Suit Samus, Diddy Kong, Sheik just as often. Komorikiri's Cloud is a dedicated co-main alongside his Sonic. Nairo doesn't use his Cloud for Singles, which is what we're concerning ourselves with. Mr. R has an established Cloud. ZeRo tried the pocket cloud method and it failed. Your argument is that Cloud is a good pocket character. No because Pocket Cloud'a tend to get bodied, only time this wasn't true was Ally vs Wrath. ANTi is an outlier because he uses pocket everything though the instance against Zinoto is fair claim. Nairo's isn't relevant to the meta in discussion.

You're using an example of a Top player with a good and practiced Cloud against another Top player of a practiced good match up for Cloud (Rosalina/Olimar) there's literally no problem here. It's called a counterpick. It wouldn't have worked if Mr. R was a bad player. You'll see good players with good practiced Clouds generally use him against Sonic and Rosa because he wins those match ups.

Cloud has netted more success as a secondary than any other character by a significant amount at top level.

Yes a lot of pocket Clouds get bodied because as I explained earlier, this mindset trickles down to lower levels of play as well. That's NOT an argument for Cloud being okay because "so many pocket Clouds fail". Only top level play is relevant.

6 out of the arguably top 10 players use him to an extent (forgot to mention Zero earlier). Without Nairo in doubles that's still 5 out of 10 in a game with 55 characters.

How can we pretend Smash 4 is balanced if this is truly optimal?

 

[L9999]

Cloud has netted more success as a secondary than any other character by a significant amount at top level.

Yes a lot of pocket Clouds get bodied because as I explained earlier, this mindset trickles down to lower levels of play as well. That's NOT an argument for Cloud being okay because "so many pocket Clouds fail". Only top level play is relevant.

6 out of the arguably top 10 players use him to an extent (forgot to mention Zero earlier). Without Nairo in doubles that's still 5 out of 10 in a game with 55 characters.

How can we pretend Smash 4 is balanced if this is truly optimal?

Ever heard about counterpicking?

 

[Nah]

Yes a lot of pocket Clouds get bodied because as I explained earlier, this mindset trickles down to lower levels of play as well. That's NOT an argument for Cloud being okay because "so many pocket Clouds fail". Only top level play is relevant.

6 out of the arguably top 10 players use him to an extent (forgot to mention Zero earlier). Without Nairo in doubles that's still 5 out of 10 in a game with 55 characters.

How can we pretend Smash 4 is balanced if this is truly optimal?

It's always been a small portion of the cast that's been competitively relevant/common. It's been like this for the whole series, and is like this in many other fighters too.

There is also the question to pose of "is top level play really the only level of play that matters at all?". I understand why we pay more attention to and put much more emphasis on top level play, but it being the only thing that matters is possibly a bit of an extreme stance.

And about Smash 4's balance....I feel sometimes that sometimes people don't exactly have a good grasp of the balance of Smash 4. This game is, by far, more balanced than the previous 3 titles. However, this does not mean that the game IS balanced. There is still a clear distinction between the haves and have nots/what makes for a truly good or relevant character. A significantly larger portion of the cast (almost everyone really) can compete and win at some level (unlike in say Brawl where for the most part it was "pick a top tier or go home" at all levels, as I understand it), but not all characters are capable of consistently doing so across multiple players at all levels of play. That there is the distinction between the upper echelon of the roster (top and high tier) and the lower echelon (upper mid, mid, low, and bottom tier) to me.

.....I should also note that my first paragraph is the only one in this post directed at JustSomeScrub's post, the rest is just a thought dump I felt like typing.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

You are all missing my point and/or dodging the issue at hand.

I play other fighting games, I know it's like this for nearly all of them. I understand play to win and have never criticized anyone for it. And I've already stated I don't even think Cloud is top 5 in the game.

But this is the age of patches and the number 1 thing Smash 4 has going for it should be balance. As a result there should be more viable secondaires/counterpicks than mostly Cloud.

I'm not against counter picking, I'm asking why does it almost always have to be Cloud? If Smash 4 is as balanced as everyone insists it is, if the tier gap isn't as large as Brawl/Melee, why are top players not exploring low-mid tiers or just rare characters in general for counterpicks?

Can we talk about for a sec? Solo 9th place at TBH6 which was super stacked and outplaced several top players/characters like Larry/Fox, Ally/Mario, Mew2King/Cloud

That and despite on paper we always say he gets mauled by Sheik, I'm looking at Falcon and Sheik sets and rarely see complete destruction. Same thing for ZSS and Falcon sets. And 2 ZSS players made top 8

I can't see Falcon as anything except a top 15 character at least

Fatality also did really well at the last major too. The name escapes me but a Japanese Falcon recently made top 3 at a pretty stacked tournament as well.

I can definitely see Falcon being better than a lot of the characters currently ranked 15-11.

Everyone talks about his exploitable recovery being one of his main weaknesses. But if you watch top level Falcon sets, Falcon doesn't get edge guarded hard nearly as often as you'd expect, he normally makes it back fine. Good Falcons know how to mix up their recovery and actually gimping them is a lot harder than those who have only played bad Falcons assume.