Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't like the word secondary being used here.

The usage of the word "secondary" actually makes perfect sense.

The results of solo-Cloud players are either underwhelming, inconsistent or both. If you looked only at their results with no regards to the people that use him as a secondary character you probably wouldn't understand why Cloud is considered such a good character. M2K is inconsistent, Tweek still gets a lot of credit for results he doesn't have [yet?] and Rain's results have gone down the drain completely ever since he started to main Cloud.

So far Cloud has only worked out as a secondary character as a complement to somebody else.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Is LCS just -9 on block? I've blocked LCS and Dtilted with Robin to punish and got it numerous times. That's a combined 14 frames.

If Dtilt can get it off block, Olimar's grab should get it too. Or maybe the Clouds I have here are just being too slow?

 

[JustSomeScrub]

You're right, he would've had to charge for another 7.5 seconds and just not get hit at all period, that's a very realistic scenario against Dabuz. Oh did I say just hit? I mean also not grabbed latter. My apologies.

DunnoBro I see. Having a guaranteed punish in this scenario doesn't really matter because Cloud's pretty ****ed to begin with lol. Touch him or grab him and he effectively dies.

Cloud's kill options without Limit aren't bad. Especially with the max rage he had. I'm just pointing out charging Limit again would not be a bad idea, it'd force Olimar to approach which is something he doesn't want. He's best when he's force you to approach instead.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Is LCS just -9 on block? I've blocked LCS and Dtilted with Robin to punish and got it numerous times. That's a combined 14 frames.

If Dtilt can get it off block, Olimar's grab should get it too. Or maybe the Clouds I have here are just being too slow?

That's feasible because rolls don't have Frame 1 invincibility so unless Cloud holds shield after LCS if you throw out a long range move that covers the initial frames of roll or spotdodge you'll hit him anyways. Basically the safest option after your opponent blocking LCS if your opponent is smart is to jump away, doing anything else can usually get you whacked. 14 frames probably means they also reacted a little slow.

J JustSomeScrub I don't think you understand the concept of how difficult it is to literally not get hit. None of Cloud's kill options would've killed Olimar barring LCS for another solid 15-25% (which means more playing Neutral at a % high enough where legitimately anything would kill). Considering all of them besides Bair and USmash got nerfed lol. Cloud's kill options w/o Limit aren't garbage, no, but they're not incredibly good either and nobody is going to throw those out in a game 5 last hit scenario unless they're cray. What you just stated is the literal reason Cloud used to be legitimately broken, because Uair was a godlike kill move. Dsmash and FSmash are still okay (more DSmash than the latter at this point) but they got clipped too for the very reason you just explained.

 

[Ethan7]

So far Cloud has only worked out as a secondary character as a complement to somebody else.

At TBH6, Komo played Cloud for almost all the sets he won. Tweek placed 13th as well.

Just saying.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Is LCS just -9 on block? I've blocked LCS and Dtilted with Robin to punish and got it numerous times. That's a combined 14 frames.

If Dtilt can get it off block, Olimar's grab should get it too. Or maybe the Clouds I have here are just being too slow?

I suspect Olilmar's grab takes longer to reach the opponent than dtilt does.

Cloud's LCS is 15 frames in total on block. So while Olimar's 10 frame grab (shield grabs are instant OOS, no extra shield drop time) seems plausible it likely takes too long for the hitbox to reach Cloud. Tether grabs don't have an instant hitbox at max range.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Also feel the need to make a correction: Limit Side-B is -8 on shield drop, -15 on OoS.

Olimar's grab OoS could probably feasibly punish it assuming he was within standing range (Olimar's is pretty good, dunno if it would cover the pushback on LCS, I could check myself)

 

[BSP]

Is LCS just -9 on block? I've blocked LCS and Dtilted with Robin to punish and got it numerous times. That's a combined 14 frames.

If Dtilt can get it off block, Olimar's grab should get it too. Or maybe the Clouds I have here are just being too slow?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...OWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=127531413

Assuming that's still accurate, I'm seeing LCS as -8 on drop (stupid that a portable fully charged Fsmash can barely be punished by tilts, but w/e). If you don't have to move after you drop shield with Robin in order to hit the Cloud with the Dtilt, that's a guaranteed punish.

I wouldn't be trying to grab a spaced LCS with olimar. Point blank is fine, but travel distance of the pikmin makes it risky.

@Mario766 up specials, up smashes, and item tosses bypass jump squat when you do them out of shield. The game tells you about the first two.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

At TBH6, Komo played Cloud for almost all the sets he won. Tweek placed 13th as well.

I'm not specifically talking about TBH6 though.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Also feel the need to make a correction: Limit Side-B is -8 on shield drop, -15 on OoS.

Olimar's grab OoS could probably feasibly punish it assuming he was within standing range (Olimar's is pretty good, dunno if it would cover the pushback on LCS, I could check myself)

As I've explained the problem is not the range, it'd definitely reach Cloud. The problem is it'd reach him too late. Tether grabs don't gain max range instantly.

So if the frame data says it's 10 frames on startup it's only talking about the INITIAL grab hitbox that comes out right next to Olimar. By the time it has reached Cloud it's been a lot more than 10 frames.

 

[TTTTTsd]

As I've explained the problem is not the range, it'd definitely reach Cloud. The problem is it'd reach him too late. Tether grabs don't gain max range instantly.

So if the frame data says it's 10 frames on startup it's only talking about the INITIAL grab hitbox that comes out right next to Olimar. By the time it has reached Cloud it's been a lot more than 10 frames.

And as I've explained even if it's a frame neutral situation, he now has to retreat and successfully not get hit or grabbed for 7.5 seconds while prepping another Limit move or trying to land a (somewhat laggy) finisher in either USmash, DSmash, or Bair if he could even push that kind of positioning when the situation is "Don't get hit against Dabuz at 150%".

That Limit Cross Slash was legit his lifeline, if that hadn't worked the outcome would've been entirely different.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

And as I've explained even if it's a frame neutral situation, he now has to retreat and successfully not get hit or grabbed for 7.5 seconds while prepping another Limit move or trying to land a (somewhat laggy) finisher in either USmash, DSmash, or Bair if he could even push that kind of positioning when the situation is "Don't get hit against Dabuz at 150%".

That Limit Cross Slash was legit his lifeline, if that hadn't worked the outcome would've been entirely different.

He had been outplaying him in neutral solidly.

It's totally feasible that he'd hit him away once more which at those percents would give him ample time to charge most of his limit before he returned to the stage.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Alright, good to know

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...OWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=127531413

Assuming that's still accurate, I'm seeing LCS as -8 on drop. If you don't have to move after you drop shield with Robin in order to hit the Cloud with the Dtilt, that's a guaranteed punish.

Don't have to move. Robin Dtilt will clip after shield pushback since Cloud keeps his foot in place while the rest of his body backs up a bit and Dtilt reaches far enough. I don't think even Jab will hit because his torso is too far out. That's another thing you have to keep in mind about LCS, it's got the Sonic Fsmash hurtbox effect that can ruin punishes.

Now if only Dtilt combod into things. </3

 

[TTTTTsd]

He had been outplaying him in neutral solidly.

It's totally feasible that he'd hit him away once more which at those percents would give him ample time to charge most of his limit before he returned to the stage.

There are a large amount of outcome trees for it, but logistically speaking if he had whiffed that LCS there is a damn good chance he wouldn't have won, the amount of pressure and ****, among other things like player error come into factor, but I don't expect this to be common knowledge. I just don't believe that he'd have won without that LCS, sorry. I think it's disingenuous to call that a Pocket Cloud after a legitimate reverse 3-0 (among what I just described) and I think this discussion is going nowhere.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

There are a large amount of outcome trees for it, but logistically speaking if he had whiffed that LCS there is a damn good chance he wouldn't have won, the amount of pressure and ****, among other things like player error come into factor, but I don't expect this to be common knowledge. I just don't believe that he'd have won without that LCS, sorry. I think it's disingenuous to call that a Pocket Cloud after a legitimate reverse 3-0 (among what I just described) and I think this discussion is going nowhere.

If Mr. R was the only example you could give him all the credit in the world.

But the fact of the matter is this is far from the only time pocket Cloud has come through for top players:

1. Anti at CEO.
2. Ally vs Wrath
3. MKLeo vs Dabuz
4. Several top players in doubles including recently at TBH6 which includes the team that won the whole thing.

This suggests the character definitely plays a very significant role too, it's not all player skill.

Mr. R played extremely well but you're kidding yourself if you think he could have done what he did with any character in the game.

 

[HoSmash4]

I'm still sticking by my opinion that non-nerfed Cloud would be #1 in the game.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If Mr. R was the only example you could give him all the credit in the world.

But the fact of the matter is this is far from the only time pocket Cloud has come through for top players:

1. Anti at CEO.
2. Ally vs Wrath
3. MKLeo vs Dabuz
4. Several top players in doubles including recently at TBH6 which includes the team that won the whole thing.

This suggests the character definitely plays a very significant role too, it's not all player skill.

Mr. R played extremely well but you're kidding yourself if you think he could have done what he did with any character in the game.

No **** character is a part of it, but y'all treat and act like character is all of it, and that sets you back immediately, sorry. I'm not stepping down from where I stand.

Doubles is also an entirely different meta where I think Cloud is objectively #1

HoSmash4 you're probably not wrong. If he wouldn't be that, he'd be Top 3 easily. Baby's first frame trap (Uair) should not also be a ridiculous kill move and I'm really glad they changed Cloud in the way they did in 1.1.5 lol.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

No **** character is a part of it, but y'all treat and act like character is all of it, and that sets you back immediately, sorry. I'm not stepping down from where I stand.

Doubles is also an entirely different meta where I think Cloud is objectively #1

HoSmash4 you're probably not wrong. If he wouldn't be that, he'd be Top 3 easily. Baby's first frame trap (Uair) should not also be a ridiculous kill move and I'm really glad they changed Cloud in the way they did in 1.1.5 lol.

The way I see it this game has 55 characters which is a massive roster and the balance is notably better than previous games after all the patches.

Despite all this in both singles and doubles (of which I agree Cloud is #1) so many top players just default to Cloud when things go bad.

I mean you're telling me with all the unique tools each characters might have in this game, the best players have decided, "nah just pick Cloud to maximize your chances"? And considering it works, you can't blame them.

It's just really lame and uninspiring to see. And you can't blame people for chanting "DLC" or spamming pay2win in twitch chats.

 

[DunnoBro]

On the topic of DLC and down tilts, I've noticed that since the game's launch down tilts were greatly improved when actually looked at.

Diddy's dtilt > usmash did not have such a forgiving window. (Dtilt was stronger, usmash was weaker making it only work for about 5% at most)

Sheik's dtilt was was also buffed as a kill confirm at the time of the bair nerf.

And aside from these pity buffs, DLC all have superb down tilts. While the rest of the cast have very mediocre dtilts. The best ones not being confirms but rather kill moves (Villager, bowser) or trip chance/tech chase. (DK, Ness)

There's very few untouched downtilts that are actual consistent combo starters as e like the ones devs actually touched. I wonder what changed their perspective on those...

 

[Ethan7]

I'm not specifically talking about TBH6 though.

Then maybe say "until now" instead of "So far".

Anyways, I mostly agree, solo Clouds haven't placed that well at super-majors. However, in my opinion, TBH6 was a very good tournament for Cloud.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The way I see it this game has 55 characters which is a massive roster and the balance is notably better than previous games after all the patches.

Despite all this in both singles and doubles (of which I agree Cloud is #1) so many top players just default to Cloud when things go bad.

I mean you're telling me with all the unique tools each characters might have in this game, the best players have decided, "nah just pick Cloud to maximize your chances"? And considering it works, you can't blame them.

It's just really lame and uninspiring to see. And you can't blame people for chanting "DLC" or spamming pay2win in twitch chats.

If they feel so inclined to do it, let them. I can blame people cause that's ****ty attitude, IDC how you spin it, nobody **** on Daigo for playing Balrog in ST when he wasn't playing Ryu, nobody gave Momochi crap for switching to E. Ryu vs. Gamerbee's Adon at EVO 2015 finals, I'm not about to do the same thing to Mr. R for picking a character he is familiar with when he's clearly not doing so well with another character he is familiar with. Mental bad MUs are a thing just as much as using a secondary for optimal performance. Some days your X is better than your Y, some matches, vs. some players....there's a lot of nuance. He tried Bayo and it didn't work, so he went to another character in his rotation that he knows stuff about. Shocking! How uninspiring.

If you're looking for intense character loyalty in a competitive setting you'll find it scarce because people are interested in winning. The bias against this character is insane.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

If they feel so inclined to do it, let them. I can blame people cause that's ****ty attitude, IDC how you spin it, nobody **** on Daigo for playing Balrog in ST when he wasn't playing Ryu, nobody gave Momochi crap for switching to E. Ryu vs. Gamerbee's Adon at EVO 2015 finals, I'm not about to do the same thing to Mr. R for picking a character he is familiar with when he's clearly not doing so well with another character he is familiar with. Mental bad MUs are a thing just as much as using a secondary for optimal performance. Some days your X is better than your Y, some matches, vs. some players....there's a lot of nuance. He tried Bayo and it didn't work, so he went to another character in his rotation that he knows stuff about. Shocking! How uninspiring.

If you're looking for intense character loyalty in a competitive setting you'll find it scarce because people are interested in winning. The bias against this character is insane.

Smash 4 is more balanced than most other fighters, especially older fighters.

I can see player's sticking to the same 5-8 characters in Melee for instance, because the gap between top and mid/low tiers is huge in the game to the point where low/mid tiers have almost zero good matchups with top tiers.

But not only is the balance notably better than previous titles, the roster is huge. You'd think a lot of the lower tiered characters will have niche usage as a result.

So character loyalty to some extent should be possible and even largely rewarded in Smash 4.

But I guess either the community is lazy or the game isn't actually very balanced when almost everyone still defaults to the same pocket/secondaries anyway.

 

[Mr. Johan]

On the topic of DLC and down tilts, I've noticed that since the game's launch down tilts were greatly improved when actually looked at.

There's very few untouched downtilts that are actual consistent combo starters as e like the ones devs actually touched. I wonder what changed their perspective on those...

Probably as an indirect means to encourage players to use every move a character has.

For the casual players, the tilts are likely the least used moves they'll use because they're more likely to be mashing the smash stick. But, they may accidentally Utilt when they're trying to Usmash someone on top, and they might Ftilt if they's mashing forward while trying to Jab. No real case to be using Dtilt on accident when they have ample reaction time to just Dsmash to cover themselves. It also helps that many, many Dsmashes are incredibly fast, relative to other Smash attacks.

By buffing Dtilts, they're wanting new players to use every move in the kit to see what works. In cases like GW's windbox Dtilt, Peach's Dtilt spike, Robin's frame trap Dtilt, and the many many combo starter Dtilts, they're encouraging it.

That said, there are a few odd Dtilts out in this entourage. Tink's is an example.

 

[Megamang]

And olimar/rosa get no blame either lol.


You cant choose lots of other characters vs Dabuz because he'll go back to rosa and your average mid tier goes through HELL trying to just touch rosa at all. Same with Olimar really.

Cloud happens to be the best pick for those 2 characters, especially at lylat.

This game is balanced enough that you can go do big things at locals with anyone. Tyroy usually takes our local with Zelda (havent played him in set though iirc, id like to think i could make him switch ) .

A character as good as Cloud, with oppressive and very versatile tools with limit, is gonna be a good pocket. We got a character injected into our game that is viable, but with real weaknesses. You saw tons of top players who ruined Cloud for his recovery this weekend, AND with the new properties of his recovery nontechableness, expect it to only get worse for him.

Cloud actually has a pretty meh dtilt. Id say the devs maybe decided to make them better when they weakened shields, so chars had good pokes to take advantage of this.


Tons of non-DLC have really good dtilts. Shiek, Rosa, Marth, Villy, Ike (!!!), lil mac... theyre good moves, since theyre designed to poke, and poking is a good thing to do in fighting games.

 

[DunnoBro]

Cloud actually has a pretty meh dtilt. Id say the devs maybe decided to make them better when they weakened shields, so chars had good pokes to take advantage of this.
.

It crosses up shield, reduces his hurtbox significantly, and starts combos/strings. Legs are also intangible.

While nothin to compare to diddy or ryu dtilt, it's still above average to most of the cast. Even megaman's which functions very similarly has much less potential reward.

Tons of non-DLC have really good dtilts. Shiek, Rosa, Marth, Villy, Ike (!!!), lil mac... theyre good moves, since theyre designed to poke, and poking is a good thing to do in fighting games.

Sheik, Ike, and Marth all had their dtilts buffed since the game's release. I'm not talking specifically DLC, just post-game release.

Rosa's had it nerfed, actually. It was bigger, and faster. But most of her moves were nerfed. (As busted as sheik and diddy were, rosa was soooo obnoxious to fight with her absurd power, hitboxes, and mechanics. No clue how she made it through testing)

 

[Mr-R]

If Mr. R was the only example you could give him all the credit in the world.

But the fact of the matter is this is far from the only time pocket Cloud has come through for top players:

1. Anti at CEO.
2. Ally vs Wrath
3. MKLeo vs Dabuz
4. Several top players in doubles including recently at TBH6 which includes the team that won the whole thing.

This suggests the character definitely plays a very significant role too, it's not all player skill.

Mr. R played extremely well but you're kidding yourself if you think he could have done what he did with any character in the game.

Just so you know cloud is either my 2nd or 3rd most played character, so implying that it's a pocket cloud is quite frankly insulting.

It's true that secondary clouds have had some success in the past, but not only are you ignoring the failed attempts from numerous "pocket clouds", you're also forgetting that top players have had succes with other secondaries before. Some examples are

- Ally going rob vs tyroy's bayo and getting the reverse 3-0
-Nairo using doc against Esam or heck even his recent Lucina pick vs komo
-Larry going DK vs void and getting the reverse 3-0
-Anti's zss vs komo

There's prob quite a few more but you get my point.

And why is Leo's cloud being used as an example when the char is litterally one of his 3 mains and he's also proven to be more successful with his other characters.

The reason the cloud pick worked out so well is because cloud does well against Rosa (imo) and I recently came back from Japan where I practiced with kirihara's Rosa with my secondaries for literally 3 full days. On top of that I also think Lylat is one of clouds best stages ( komo agrees with me )

So yeah there were a lot of factors here not just "pocket cloud is too easy to be successful with"

 

[Das Koopa]

Mr. R pulling out a well-tuned Cloud and Abadango pulling out a well-tuned Mega Man was really bizarre, by the way. Aba may have lost but he came far closer than he's ever been to having an answer to ZeRo.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Just so you know cloud is either my 2nd or 3rd most played character, so implying that it's a pocket cloud is quite frankly insulting.

It's true that secondary clouds have had some success in the past, but not only are you ignoring the failed attempts from numerous "pocket clouds", you're also forgetting that top players have had succes with other secondaries before. Some examples are

- Ally going rob vs tyroy's bayo and getting the reverse 3-0
-Nairo using doc against Esam or heck even his recent Lucina pick vs komo
-Larry going DK vs void and getting the reverse 3-0
-Anti's zss vs komo

There's prob quite a few more but you get my point.

And why is Leo's cloud being used as an example when the char is litterally one of his 3 mains and he's also proven to be more successful with his other characters.

The reason the cloud pick worked out so well is because cloud does well against Rosa (imo) and I recently came back from Japan where I practiced with kirihara's Rosa with my secondaries for literally 3 full days. On top of that I also think Lylat is one of clouds best stages ( komo agrees with me )

So yeah there were a lot of factors here not just "pocket cloud is too easy to be successful with"

It disproportionately happens much more with Cloud than any other character. I'm not suggesting no other secondary has worked.

But when literally half of arguably the top 10 players use Cloud to some extent, there's a problem. In particular, Nairo (doubles), Ally/Anti/You (some matchups) and Komokiri.

And yes Zero has also tried Cloud mostly unsuccessfully in the past so he's a good example of it not always working regardless of skill level. But just the fact that it's in the minds of top players to default to him first trickles down to lower levels of play as well.

So it's not surprising when most of the community follows suit and goes to Cloud instead of exploring the several other viable characters in this massive roster. After what you've accomplished here, I would not be surprised if other top players bust out Cloud even more than before.

 

[Das Koopa]

I assume the reason Lylat's considered a good pick for Cloud to use has to do with how close the platforms are to the ground + Cloud's large hitboxes, right? Things like Nair look pretty scary on that stage in particular.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Smash 4 is more balanced than most other fighters, especially older fighters.

I can see player's sticking to the same 5-8 characters in Melee for instance, because the gap between top and mid/low tiers is huge in the game to the point where low/mid tiers have almost zero good matchups with top tiers.

But not only is the balance notably better than previous titles, the roster is huge. You'd think a lot of the lower tiered characters will have niche usage as a result.

So character loyalty to some extent should be possible and even largely rewarded in Smash 4.

But I guess either the community is lazy or the game isn't actually very balanced when almost everyone still defaults to the same pocket/secondaries anyway.

 

[NegaNixx]

It disproportionately happens much more with Cloud than any other character. I'm not suggesting no other secondary has worked.

But when literally half of arguably the top 10 players use Cloud to some extent, there's a problem. In particular, Nairo (doubles), Ally/Anti/You (some matchups) and Komokiri.

And yes Zero has also tried Cloud mostly unsuccessfully in the past so he's a good example of it not always working regardless of skill level. But just the fact that it's in the minds of top players to default to him first trickles down to lower levels of play as well.

So it's not surprising when most of the community follows suit and goes to Cloud instead of exploring the several other viable characters in this massive roster. After what you've accomplished here, I would not be surprised if other top players bust out Cloud even more than before.

I don't see the problem with this. Ally hasn't used Cloud since Momocon. Yeah ANTi has a Cloud but he also uses Sonic, Metaknight, Zero Suit Samus, Diddy Kong, Sheik just as often. Komorikiri's Cloud is a dedicated co-main alongside his Sonic. Nairo doesn't use his Cloud for Singles, which is what we're concerning ourselves with. Mr. R has an established Cloud. ZeRo tried the pocket cloud method and it failed. Your argument is that Cloud is a good pocket character. No because Pocket Cloud'a tend to get bodied, only time this wasn't true was Ally vs Wrath. ANTi is an outlier because he uses pocket everything though the instance against Zinoto is fair claim. Nairo's isn't relevant to the meta in discussion.

You're using an example of a Top player with a good and practiced Cloud against another Top player of a practiced good match up for Cloud (Rosalina/Olimar) there's literally no problem here. It's called a counterpick. It wouldn't have worked if Mr. R was a bad player. You'll see good players with good practiced Clouds generally use him against Sonic and Rosa because he wins those match ups.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nope
He would've lost limit, which sucks, but that's it. LCS is not punishable on block by any character afaik

Ryu says hi.

Also any char can spot dodge the last few hits and reaarange Cloud's face. Ok, not EVERYONE but quite a few characters.

Try it yourself.

 

[chaos11011]

That's almost every top Sheik nowadays, unfortunately
At least they're starting to bring the needles out.

Speaking of such.....needle-less Sheik is broken in a lot of MUs. In my experience, they generally hurt you more than they help against a decent amount of characters. Namely .

Robin? Could you help elaborate that? It might be the level of Robin play I've experienced, but I've been getting a lot of millage off of needle camping them. You stay in crouch most of the game from a distance bc it renders thunders useless, throwing needles when they approach, shield Arcfire from afar, and when they get close enough to Levin/Nosferatu/Grab, you run away using jumps, Bouncing Fish, B reverse needles, or even Vanish if they dont have a strong thunder/throwable projectile. Their mobility cant keep up. It's hardest on FD but I was still able to do it.

I've fought 2 Robin sets in bracket recently, 3 out of the 4 games being time outs. It's especially easy on Smashville (camp moving platform, play safe when it is in the middle, retreat when it's on the other side), Duck Hunt, or any non Lylat/FD stage. Even T&C has the triple platforms that make camping easy for Sheik. Especially when you just need two clicks or a needle charge to retain it, so you can charge for a second, run away, and charge.

Though, it might be because they never fought a Sheik like that, so they probably didnt know what they could even do (I suggested exhausting resources to throw books and swords with mixed up baits)

 

[DunnoBro]

Ignoring ease of use, do any other characters share Cloud's MU spread among high tiers?

Doing well vs: Rosa, m2, sonic
Oppressing: Yoshi, Ness, Villager, Lucario, Wario, MK(?)

I've fought 2 Robin sets in bracket recently, 3 out of the 4 games being time outs.

My guess he meant physically hurting you in the Robin MU I guess.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Seagull Joe (?) 2-0 Saj

Looks like all that PF experience came through for him. Not too worried about Saj since he's a bit of a loser's bracket shark though.

 

[shrooby]

That's almost every top Sheik nowadays, unfortunately
At least they're starting to bring the needles out.

Speaking of such.....needle-less Sheik is broken in a lot of MUs. In my experience, they generally hurt you more than they help against a decent amount of characters. Namely .

Needles are big part of why DDD loses to Sheik though. Was true before the nerfs too.
In practice D3 takes so long to kill that Sheik has a lot of time to make a mistake and get bair'd or make the wrong decision during a ledge trap. etc. But Needles allow Sheik to get more reward from playing passively
D3 doesn't have an answer to Needles unless you hard read them and toss a Gordo, since Needles don't reflect Gordo. You can't jump, Sheik can just Needle your landing. You can walk forward and just shield, but Needles aren't reactable, you would have to read the toss. (And you can't powershield Needles eitherrrrr)
DDD is so slow that this kind of Sheik play singlehandedly biases the MU into Sheik's favor, more than it would be otherwise. Without Needles it would be a lot more doable.

When I was more active I fought high level Sheiks frequently, and that's what I got from those experiences. This was before the throw nerfs as well.

Needles are still very good against many characters

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Somewhat... Faster fallers can't get stairway'd as consistently, but bayo can come down with nair/dABK to set up an edgeguard still.

Fast fallers with good recoveries like megaman, zss, even diddy to an extent kinda get out for free until they're just screwed. But link has some issues getting back to neutral still.

And yes, cloud is dumb. All DLC except roy are dumb. We're just gonna have to get over it.

Roy isnt dumb as a whole but his fair sure is
FAF of 30 but autocancels after the faf, you can jump before you hit the ground with it but if you don't then you get the full 13 frames of landing lag. Same thing goes for TL's fair, any other moves like this?

That's almost every top Sheik nowadays, unfortunately
At least they're starting to bring the needles out.

Speaking of such.....needle-less Sheik is broken in a lot of MUs. In my experience, they generally hurt you more than they help against a decent amount of characters. Namely .

Needles vs Link in the neutral are pretty innefective
Hylian shield in the Sheik vs Link MU and is one of the reasons I think its is nearly even. Sheik cannot force an approach on slow character with high damage output and kill power. Link can freely walk towards Sheik powershielding BFs and uptilting/smashing other aerial approaches. Second reason is Links ability to pressure Sheik's shield. His damage output is nearly 3x hers, and his landing lag is similar, and his range makes it difficult to punish him OoS. Take Link's fair for instance, when both hits connect is more than half of her shield, shielding it with a decent ammount of shield damage is risking a shield break and that means death as low as 40% for Sheik

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ryu says hi.

Also any char can spot dodge the last few hits and reaarange Cloud's face. Ok, not EVERYONE but quite a few characters.

Try it yourself.

Wasn't there also a shield the first two hits -> powershield the third hit thing? Or was that debunked?

 

[Laken64]

Roy isnt dumb as a whole but his fair sure is
FAF of 30 but autocancels after the faf, you can jump before you hit the ground with it but if you don't then you get the full 13 frames of landing lag. Same thing goes for TL's fair, any other moves like this?

Roy's fair can only autocancel from a full hop or a full hop on to a platform. Roy's dumbest feature is lagless blazer imo do you know how many people think it's punishable on whiff then eat a FSMASH trying to punish said move? Really satisfying to land.

 

[ARGHETH]

Roy's fair can only autocancel from a full hop or a full hop on to a platform. Roy's dumbest feature is lagless blazer imo do you know how many people think it's punishable on whiff then eat a FSMASH trying to punish said move? Really satisfying to land.

Err...You mean Flare Blade? Blazer's his Up B.